Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #251  
Old 02-14-2020, 08:03 PM
CarnalK's Avatar
CarnalK is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 19,344
Ok, we can stop now.
  #252  
Old 02-14-2020, 08:22 PM
Loach's Avatar
Loach is offline
The Central Scrutinizer
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Pork Roll/Taylor Ham
Posts: 26,042
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquet Bear View Post
...it would take zero effort on your part to fight propaganda. All you have to do is not repeat it.



I quoted what you said in context. What you said wasn't about how "voters feel." A plain text reading of what you said was all about what you felt, what you think.



But he isn't a communist. You know this. You know that there is a widespread disinformation campaign to propagate the conflation. It is entirely fair and reasonable to talk about how people will conflate the two. It isn't fair and reasonable to simply repeat the disingenuous talking points without putting them in context.
Being a socialist is as bad as being a communist for a large percentage of voters. I値l keep saying it because I believe it to be true. I知 not going to take on the job of educating random people on political theory. I値l leave that to you. I知 going to bet you will be as effective as me and I知 not even trying.
  #253  
Old 02-14-2020, 08:49 PM
drad dog is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 6,745
How bad is being russian for Republicans? Has it changed?

So they are not just dinosaur brains equating communism with socialism.
  #254  
Old 02-14-2020, 09:10 PM
PhillyGuy is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Pennsylvania U.S.A.
Posts: 1,531
Quote:
Originally Posted by drad dog View Post
How bad is being russian for Republicans? Has it changed?

So they are not just dinosaur brains equating communism with socialism.
There are a lot of people whose commitment to a tribal party is greater than any issue or position. They won't determine the outcome because their vote is baked in.

The election will instead be determined by people who might not vote. And a whole lot of them live in swing states where registered voters are disproportionately old. Like my Pennsylvania.

Personally, I like regulated capitalism.

And my dinosaur brain tells me that being a former Trotskyite doesn't help you convince old people that your socialism is the bright and pretty kind.
  #255  
Old 02-14-2020, 09:42 PM
octopus's Avatar
octopus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 9,569
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
Congrats. That is indeed a more annoying way to say "I don't see what this has to do with my post". The problem is, almost every time you say it, it's rather obvious what it had to do with your post.
Eh, it痴 just one of his silly rhetorical devices he uses in an attempt to make a post seem absurd. It痴 easier than conceding other folks have legitimate points.
  #256  
Old 02-14-2020, 09:51 PM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 36,872
Quote:
Originally Posted by octopus View Post
Eh, it’s just one of his silly rhetorical devices he uses in an attempt to make a post seem absurd. It’s easier than conceding other folks have legitimate points.
Always easier to assume one's ideological opponents are dishonest or stupid than to consider the possibility that they might honestly come to different conclusions and different understandings based on different assumptions and experiences. Any time you want to actually get into how we reach these different conclusions, I'd be happy to take part. But I understand that this kind of drive-by post takes a lot less effort, so that may be your preference.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 02-14-2020 at 09:51 PM.
  #257  
Old 02-14-2020, 10:47 PM
drad dog is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 6,745
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyGuy View Post
There are a lot of people whose commitment to a tribal party is greater than any issue or position. They won't determine the outcome because their vote is baked in.

The election will instead be determined by people who might not vote. And a whole lot of them live in swing states where registered voters are disproportionately old. Like my Pennsylvania.

Personally, I like regulated capitalism.

And my dinosaur brain tells me that being a former Trotskyite doesn't help you convince old people that your socialism is the bright and pretty kind.
But, how did the right become so warm about russia? They are changing.

i have to admit: They may hate fellow americans more than russians. But still why do you think socialism can't be spun like everything else.

Also: the electorate you are talking about is getting older and dying. So in terms of "renewable" electoral politics you might be surprised at what younger voters (in Texas) are thinking now.
  #258  
Old 02-14-2020, 11:13 PM
Banquet Bear's Avatar
Banquet Bear is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Posts: 5,843
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loach View Post
Being a socialist is as bad as being a communist for a large percentage of voters.
...I never disputed this. I told you that this point is a fair and reasonable one.

Quote:
I値l keep saying it because I believe it to be true. I知 not going to take on the job of educating random people on political theory. I値l leave that to you. I知 going to bet you will be as effective as me and I知 not even trying.
I'm going to return and give full context to what you said.

iiandyiiii asked you:

Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
So are you saying Bernie's a communist (which is what Carville and Trump have said), or are you saying they will try to smear Bernie as a communist?
You replied:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loach View Post
He may have mellowed with age but he has expressed a lot more solidarity with communist governments and communist systems than any democrat candidate ever. He might as well be a communist. As it is he is an avowed socialist which might as well be the same thing. Carville can be a blowhard. He certainly knows the difference between communist and socialist. He also knows it doesn稚 matter in American politics.

It痴 hard to characterize someone痴 own words as a smear. Is the tape of Bloomberg a smear?
iiandyiiii asked you to clarify your position: were you saying they were a communist or are you saying they will try and smear Bernie as a communist?

You did clarify your position. 'He expressed solidarity with them. He may as well have been one of them.' None of that is accurate. Those are talking points. Talking points that were designed and written (not by you) and propagated for a very specific purpose. Repeating them with no caveat doesn't fight the battle against ignorance.
  #259  
Old 02-14-2020, 11:16 PM
PhillyGuy is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Pennsylvania U.S.A.
Posts: 1,531
Quote:
Originally Posted by drad dog View Post
But still why do you think socialism can't be spun like everything else.
If DJT comes out for socialism, his base will follow. Unless you are predicting Trump will go there, I'm not following how that makes Carville wrong, or Sanders a strong candidate, or socialism a swing state winning issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drad dog View Post
Also: the electorate you are talking about is getting older and dying. So in terms of "renewable" electoral politics you might be surprised at what younger voters (in Texas) are thinking now.
Texas does have an unusually young electorate, and may well switch back to being a Democratic state before this decade ends. But the evidence does not yet support it.

Also, the evidence from the 2018 congressional elections is that the historic weak performance, in purplish areas, of leftist candidates is still the case:

Quote:
Tellingly, while progressives managed to nominate several candidates in red districts Kara Eastman in Nebraska, Richard Ojeda in West Virginia, and many others any one of whose victory they would have cited as proof that left-wing candidates can win Trump districts, not a single one of them prevailed in November. Our Revolution went 022, Justice Democrats went 016, and Brand New Congress went 06.* The failed technocratic 26-year-old bourgeoise shills who were doing it wrong somehow accounted for 100 percent of the party痴 House gains.

Had Democrats failed to win back the House, their left-wing critics would have claimed vindication. Instead, the entire debate sank below the surface without a trace.
I advice reading my whole link, and, even better, the "here, here, and here" poly sci links you'll find within it.
  #260  
Old 02-18-2020, 12:47 AM
UltraVires is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bridgeport, WV, US
Posts: 16,444
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyGuy View Post
I advice reading my whole link, and, even better, the "here, here, and here" poly sci links you'll find within it.
From your link:

Quote:
But Warren at least tries to couch her positions in a framework of reforming and revitalizing capitalism that is intended to reassure ideologically skeptical voters. Sanders combines unpopular program specifics in the unpopular packaging of “socialism.” The socialist label has grown less unpopular, a trend that has attracted so much media attention that many people have gotten the impression “socialism” is actually popular, which is absolutely not the case.
That's the key. Democrats have been able to win by vehemently denying that what they propose is socialism. Whether it is or not is largely up to one's political POV. Bernie embraces the term, not only hurting him, but exposing all other Democratic candidates to the charge that the GOP was right all along that what they propose is socialism.

It would be like Republican nominee stating, "Yeah, you guys are right. I'm only here to enrich myself and my rich buddies by concentrating more wealth in the hands of a few." After that, the common Democratic attack that Republicans support the rich at the expense of the poor is no longer an attack: it's a verifiable fact.

The article is also right that the use of the term "socialist" does not require the acquisition of the fainting couch for many younger voters as it would have when my father was my age, but that doesn't mean it is a winner. The debate will open up the Cold War arguments about why socialism is bad and we have thought it bad for years. America was based on rugged individualism and freedom, which if it means anything, means keeping what you earn. Charity to the poor, yes, but not a guaranteed government imposed right to pick my pocket. USA! USA! USA!

In addition, Sanders has tremendous baggage. Posters are arguing whether this or that term is accurate, but none of that matters. What matters is the perception. First, Sanders looks crazy. Full stop. The guy looks like Doc Brown from Back to the Future. Second, he's old. Old and crazy. Further, he has the baggage of taking a honeymoon to the USSR.

You can say, no, no that wasn't a honeymoon, it was a trip to Burlington's sister city which happened to occur right after he got married. As the article continues:

Quote:
Nobody “cared” how Michael Dukakis looked in a tank, and probably not many voters cared about Mitt Romney’s dismissive remarks about the 47 percent, but both reinforced larger attack narratives. Vintage video of Bernie palling around with Soviet communists will make for an almost insultingly easy way for Republicans to communicate the idea that his plans to expand government are radical.
Emphasis added. There's a bunch more. His rape fantasy essay, the fact that he never held a regular job until he was 40, collecting government benefits prior to that, and since then has held only government jobs (also playing into the narrative that he wants people to suckle at the government teat), his running as a elector for a Socialist Workers Party candidate for POTUS who supported Iran when they took our people hostage, etc. etc.

As iiandyiiii constantly points out, nobody can predict the future. But I have been around long enough, and certainly Carville has, to see pretty easily what a disaster of monumental proportions it would be for the Dems to run Sanders against Trump.

Last edited by UltraVires; 02-18-2020 at 12:48 AM.
  #261  
Old 02-18-2020, 01:23 AM
Velocity is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 16,585
The main disadvantage for Republicans is that comparatively few Americans viscerally oppose Communism today. We are 30 years removed from the Cold War. An entire generation of Americans has not grown up with anti-Communist culture or education or the like. Communism isn't perceived as a villain, at least not in a way that most people really care about anymore. In addition, Republicans have been crying wolf about Democrats and socialism for too long.

The GOP can bash Bernie with hammers and sickles as much as they like, but for many millions of Americans, the response will be a shrug - "So?"
  #262  
Old 02-18-2020, 01:39 AM
UltraVires is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bridgeport, WV, US
Posts: 16,444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
The main disadvantage for Republicans is that comparatively few Americans viscerally oppose Communism today. We are 30 years removed from the Cold War. An entire generation of Americans has not grown up with anti-Communist culture or education or the like. Communism isn't perceived as a villain, at least not in a way that most people really care about anymore. In addition, Republicans have been crying wolf about Democrats and socialism for too long.

The GOP can bash Bernie with hammers and sickles as much as they like, but for many millions of Americans, the response will be a shrug - "So?"
I don't believe this is true. Many young Americans learned about the Berlin Wall where the Soviet Union imprisoned and prevented people from leaving its sphere of influence. They learned about the Cuban Missile Crisis where the Rooskies tried to put nukes on our doorstep. They have seen Red Dawn on Netflix. They hear stories from their parents about how when they were younger, they had to live in fear of nuclear war. They have read Animal Farm and 1984 and understand the context.

To the extent that they don't know, the debate will reignite with older folks educating younger folks on this. How communism means that you don't own anything, that you are subservient to the state, and that the only god is the state.

Further, I turn 44 this year, and I learned in school to hate the socialists and communists. Anyone older than me will vote with that same idea in mind.

But to the extent that you may be right, as the article said, just because people won't be abhorred by socialist or communism like they might have been in 1975, doesn't mean that people have done a 180 and will be all "Go, Bernie, Go!"

ETA: I have a visceral hatred of Hitler and the Nazis, but that was well before I was born. Why wouldn't hatred of socialism or communism be the same?

Last edited by UltraVires; 02-18-2020 at 01:41 AM.
  #263  
Old 02-18-2020, 01:59 AM
octopus's Avatar
octopus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 9,569
Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
I don't believe this is true. Many young Americans learned about the Berlin Wall where the Soviet Union imprisoned and prevented people from leaving its sphere of influence. They learned about the Cuban Missile Crisis where the Rooskies tried to put nukes on our doorstep. They have seen Red Dawn on Netflix. They hear stories from their parents about how when they were younger, they had to live in fear of nuclear war. They have read Animal Farm and 1984 and understand the context.

To the extent that they don't know, the debate will reignite with older folks educating younger folks on this. How communism means that you don't own anything, that you are subservient to the state, and that the only god is the state.

Further, I turn 44 this year, and I learned in school to hate the socialists and communists. Anyone older than me will vote with that same idea in mind.

But to the extent that you may be right, as the article said, just because people won't be abhorred by socialist or communism like they might have been in 1975, doesn't mean that people have done a 180 and will be all "Go, Bernie, Go!"

ETA: I have a visceral hatred of Hitler and the Nazis, but that was well before I was born. Why wouldn't hatred of socialism or communism be the same?
Because socialism and communism, aka free stuff, sounds tremendously more appealing than Nazism aka toss people in extermination camps. Now of course communism does lead to extermination camps, but not when it's finally implemented properly.
  #264  
Old 02-18-2020, 05:41 AM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 36,872
Socialism and communism are as different as Cuba and Canada. It's a ridiculous comparison. Lots of Americans might see it that way (though not a majority, based on polling I've seen), but lots of Americans also tolerate or welcome racism and misogyny.
  #265  
Old 02-18-2020, 05:44 AM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 36,872
Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
As iiandyiiii constantly points out, nobody can predict the future. But I have been around long enough, and certainly Carville has, to see pretty easily what a disaster of monumental proportions it would be for the Dems to run Sanders against Trump.
I like this confidence! Same thing I saw from Democrats in 2016. I learned from it, but hopefully my ideological opponents have not!
  #266  
Old 02-18-2020, 08:03 AM
Red Wiggler is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,121
Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
I don't believe this is true. Many young Americans learned about the Berlin Wall where the Soviet Union imprisoned and prevented people from leaving its sphere of influence. They learned about the Cuban Missile Crisis where the Rooskies tried to put nukes on our doorstep. They have seen Red Dawn on Netflix. They hear stories from their parents about how when they were younger, they had to live in fear of nuclear war. They have read Animal Farm and 1984 and understand the context.

To the extent that they don't know, the debate will reignite with older folks educating younger folks on this. How communism means that you don't own anything, that you are subservient to the state, and that the only god is the state.

Further, I turn 44 this year, and I learned in school to hate the socialists and communists. Anyone older than me will vote with that same idea in mind.

But to the extent that you may be right, as the article said, just because people won't be abhorred by socialist or communism like they might have been in 1975, doesn't mean that people have done a 180 and will be all "Go, Bernie, Go!"

ETA: I have a visceral hatred of Hitler and the Nazis, but that was well before I was born. Why wouldn't hatred of socialism or communism be the same?
We also have decades of exposure to western European democracies which have better electoral systems than we do and generally healthier and happier citizenry. U.S. conservatives may want to -- and apparently always have -- handwave those examples away as inconvenient challenges to the archaic idea of American Exceptionalism but younger and better educated voters see a different reality than what their grandparents do.
  #267  
Old 02-18-2020, 11:05 AM
dalej42 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago
Posts: 15,740
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Wiggler View Post
We also have decades of exposure to western European democracies which have better electoral systems than we do and generally healthier and happier citizenry. U.S. conservatives may want to -- and apparently always have -- handwave those examples away as inconvenient challenges to the archaic idea of American Exceptionalism but younger and better educated voters see a different reality than what their grandparents do.
Younger and better educated voters, assuming they turn out, are also clumped together in cites in blue states or in blue oases in red states.
__________________
Twitter:@Stardales IG:@Dalej42 He/Him/His
  #268  
Old 02-18-2020, 11:43 AM
Snowboarder Bo's Avatar
Snowboarder Bo is online now
Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 28,249
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loach View Post
Being a socialist is as bad as being a communist for a large percentage of voters. I値l keep saying it because I believe it to be true. I知 not going to take on the job of educating random people on political theory. I値l leave that to you. I知 going to bet you will be as effective as me and I知 not even trying.
Right: because knowledge isn't what you want voters to have, right?
  #269  
Old 02-18-2020, 11:50 AM
Snowboarder Bo's Avatar
Snowboarder Bo is online now
Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 28,249
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
We are 30 years removed from the Cold War. An entire generation of Americans has not grown up with anti-Communist culture or education or the like.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
Further, I turn 44 this year, and I learned in school to hate the socialists and communists. Anyone older than me will vote with that same idea in mind.


Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
ETA: I have a visceral hatred of Hitler and the Nazis, but that was well before I was born. Why wouldn't hatred of socialism or communism be the same?
Holy shit; it's like you were trying to write something that would convey "clueless myopia" and you succeeded beyond your wildest dreams! Congratulations!

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 02-18-2020 at 11:53 AM.
  #270  
Old 02-18-2020, 11:56 AM
Red Wiggler is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,121
I don't know if I'd brag about lumping my political beliefs in with older voters.
  #271  
Old 02-18-2020, 03:59 PM
UltraVires is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bridgeport, WV, US
Posts: 16,444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Wiggler View Post
We also have decades of exposure to western European democracies which have better electoral systems than we do and generally healthier and happier citizenry. U.S. conservatives may want to -- and apparently always have -- handwave those examples away as inconvenient challenges to the archaic idea of American Exceptionalism but younger and better educated voters see a different reality than what their grandparents do.
Younger liberals see this difference. That's the problem that your side has in this debate. You think this, and you see the stories on TV about crazy young people protesting for safe spaces and against microaggressions on college campuses and you think that all young people think this way. They don't. There are many more back in their dorm rooms choosing between competing good job offers wondering what all of this bullshit is about.

Maybe, maybe, if you tried this in 2008 when the economy looked like it might just crash altogether you could sell this to people. But not now when the economy is smoking. You can't tell people how bad they have it when it's not bad.

Further, these young kids that are protesting? You've got their vote anyways. Nominate Bernie, Pete, Warren, Biden, Bloomberg, the reincarnation of Josef Stalin, anyone, you have their vote already. You are trying to convince the swing voters, and socialism does not do that.
  #272  
Old 02-18-2020, 05:38 PM
John Bredin is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: BuffaloGrove IL (Chicago)
Posts: 2,119
Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
Further, these young kids that are protesting? You've got their vote anyways. Nominate Bernie, Pete, Warren, Biden, Bloomberg, the reincarnation of Josef Stalin, anyone, you have their vote already. You are trying to convince the swing voters, and socialism does not do that.
Neither does painting anything to the left of Ayn Rand as socialist. The Republicans paint everything from the minimum wage to the Post Office to public education to clean-air and clean-water regulations as socialist. At some point, enough people start tuning out the boys who cry wolf.

Is Sanders a socialist? Yes, he's said so in the past. So what? Everyone knows that the GOP will call Bloomberg a socialist ... if he's the Dem nominee. I'm not a Sanders supporter, but I can see how some feel, to use an old expression "may as well be hanged for a sheep as a lamb."
  #273  
Old 02-19-2020, 04:03 AM
UltraVires is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bridgeport, WV, US
Posts: 16,444
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Bredin View Post
Neither does painting anything to the left of Ayn Rand as socialist. The Republicans paint everything from the minimum wage to the Post Office to public education to clean-air and clean-water regulations as socialist. At some point, enough people start tuning out the boys who cry wolf.

Is Sanders a socialist? Yes, he's said so in the past. So what? Everyone knows that the GOP will call Bloomberg a socialist ... if he's the Dem nominee. I'm not a Sanders supporter, but I can see how some feel, to use an old expression "may as well be hanged for a sheep as a lamb."
But that's exactly what I have been saying. You can deflect the arguments that a minimum wage and postal service are socialist programs. The Dems have done so quite well and have expressly said that they are not socialists.

Sanders expressly claims it. That is the issue. The big issue. The horrific issue for the Dems. People would have believed the boy who cried wolf the very last time if the wolf jumped out and said "Yep, here I am."

As I said earlier, the Dems are going to call any Republican nominee a racist, right? Same thing, have used it for years. So, do you think it would not have any effect whatsoever if a 2024 GOP nominee came out and said that he hates blacks and Jews?
  #274  
Old 02-19-2020, 04:30 AM
SlackerInc's Avatar
SlackerInc is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Northern Minnesota
Posts: 12,810
Carville is spot on, as is Ultravires. This is the worst possible moment in the economic cycle to run as a socialist, when people are expressing more positive feelings about their economic situation than in any election cycle when an incumbent was running for reelection going back to 1992.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/285593/...elections.aspx

Look at that chart! +25 is just sick. Obama managed to win reelection fairly comfortably with a -7! If Trump didn't constantly act like such a maniac, or we were facing President Rubio or Jeb right now, Democrats would have no chance. Facing them with an avowed socialist given these poll numbers is lunacy.

And Republicans are just licking their chops, hoping to face Bernie. I wrote about the "communist" oppo research fusillade that will be coming in another thread: https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...7&postcount=14
__________________
SlackerInc on Twitter: http://twitter.com/slackerinc
  #275  
Old 02-19-2020, 04:41 AM
Unreconstructed Man is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 554
Sanders is very open about the fact he痴 a Democratic Socialist. But honestly, so what? Sure, there are some people for whom the word 全ocialist is like a kind of black magic incantation that makes them cross themselves and rend their garments and cry 填NCLEAN! But who cares about them? They池e not the sort who壇 ever vote Democrat anyway. Besides, half of them are on Medicare.

You say the mere word 鉄ocialist has some weird, talismanic power that値l gift the election to Trump on a silver platter? I say bullshit. There痴 no way you can possibly know that and it痴 presumptuous of you to argue otherwise. For one thing, while Bernie calls himself a Democratic Socialist, he痴 really only a Socialist by American standards. By Canadian standards he痴 just a guy. And nowadays, with more and more Americans hopping over the border to buy insulin while folks like Charles Koch fight to abolish the minimum wage, maybe people might be OK voting for a guy with more Canadian attitudes. Hell, they voted for a pussy-grabbing billionaire last time so stranger things have happened.
  #276  
Old 02-19-2020, 05:45 AM
UltraVires is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bridgeport, WV, US
Posts: 16,444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unreconstructed Man View Post
Sanders is very open about the fact he’s a Democratic Socialist. But honestly, so what? Sure, there are some people for whom the word ‘Socialist’ is like a kind of black magic incantation that makes them cross themselves and rend their garments and cry “UNCLEAN!” But who cares about them? They’re not the sort who’d ever vote Democrat anyway. Besides, half of them are on Medicare.

You say the mere word “Socialist” has some weird, talismanic power that’ll gift the election to Trump on a silver platter? I say bullshit. There’s no way you can possibly know that and it’s presumptuous of you to argue otherwise. For one thing, while Bernie calls himself a Democratic Socialist, he’s really only a Socialist by American standards. By Canadian standards he’s just a guy. And nowadays, with more and more Americans hopping over the border to buy insulin while folks like Charles Koch fight to abolish the minimum wage, maybe people might be OK voting for a guy with more Canadian attitudes. Hell, they voted for a pussy-grabbing billionaire last time so stranger things have happened.
Elections are not about the far right and the far left. It's the swing voters.

The takeaway that you and others have is (in part) that the swing voters didn't seem to care that Trump was a "pussy grabber" so if you nominate a socialist, so what? But once again, you are projecting your own views onto swing voters.

It's not that swing voters didn't mind someone grabbing a woman's pussy without her consent. It's that swing voters listed to the Billy Bush tape and concluded that Trump was not literally stating that he would grab an unconsenting woman's pussy. He was bullshitting as many people do. He was saying that he was so rich that a woman would consent to him walking up and grabbing her pussy, in an obvious hyperbolic statement, and one so that he could feel good by scoring guy points with Billy Bush.

Now that explanation is simply heresy to those on the left because in your ears you hear an obvious admission of sexual assault. And I'm not here to argue against that in this thread.

What I am saying is that you have made an incorrect assumption about swing voters and want to use that incorrect assumption to argue that socialism is no big deal. The parallel would be if Trump, after being questioned about the Billy Bush tape, said, "Yes, I routinely grab strange women by the pussy, without consent, and I believe that is my right as a rich man" and swing voters still elected him. Then you would have a point. But he didn't.

Sanders admits his socialism which, again while not a thing to get out the fainting couch like when my father was my age, is still a large net negative in the United States. Polls show that 42% of Democrats would never vote for a socialist. 42%. Now that may change when the rubber meets the road, but it illustrates how harmful it is to an electorate.....especially an electorate who is doing very well financially.

You want to take away my health care and substitute it with a socialist one? I like my health care. It is very good. That doesn't sit well with me (swing voter). As I said, if this was 2008 and me (swing voter) was unemployed and crying at night because of high mortgage payments and health care bills, maybe you win me on that. Not today when I'm doing great.

Last edited by UltraVires; 02-19-2020 at 05:48 AM.
  #277  
Old 02-19-2020, 06:41 AM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 36,872
Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post

It's not that swing voters didn't mind someone grabbing a woman's pussy without her consent. It's that swing voters listed to the Billy Bush tape and concluded that Trump was not literally stating that he would grab an unconsenting woman's pussy.
It's much more than that. It's also about the numerous hateful and anti-democratic things he's said. And more notably for this comparison to Sanders, the numerous times Trump has praised authoritarians and communists, which is exactly what you're accusing Sanders of.

Sanders may have said this stuff in the 80s, but Trump said it just within the last three years. I don't buy that this stuff really really matters and is a huge negative for Sanders, but it doesn't matter at all for Trump when he's said it far more recently.
__________________
My new novel Spindown
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:53 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright ゥ 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017