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Old 02-07-2020, 06:40 PM
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Trump II, The Revenge of the Trump


And so it begins.

Impeachment witness Vindman removed from White House job.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...293_story.html

Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman testified during the House inquiry into whether President Trump inappropriately pressured Ukraine's leader to launch investigations into Trump's political rivals. Vindman’s twin brother, Yevgeny, was also removed from the NSC, where he worked as a lawyer.
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Old 02-07-2020, 06:45 PM
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This is the lesson Trump learned from impeachment -- that he can do absolutely anything he wants to, and his party will back him up.
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Old 02-07-2020, 07:05 PM
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And it continues

BREAKING: President Trump fires Gordon Sondland, the second impeachment witness to be removed from his post Friday
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Old 02-07-2020, 07:07 PM
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I'm absolutely shocked that the overly-entitled rich old man who is famously petty and vindictive would take vengeance on someone he perceives as having wronged him. And the person's brother, because what's a little taint of the blood if we're tossing out the rule of law anyways, am I right?


And as I was posting this, I saw the update about Sondland. Are we starting an over/under on how many people survive the weekend?
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Old 02-07-2020, 07:10 PM
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He probably can't do a whole lot to Romney directly. Maybe cut some federal contract or program that benefits Massachusetts.
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Old 02-07-2020, 07:12 PM
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He probably can't do a whole lot to Romney directly. Maybe cut some federal contract or program that benefits Massachusetts.
He can get him kicked out of the GOP.
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Old 02-07-2020, 07:12 PM
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And as I was posting this, I saw the update about Sondland. Are we starting an over/under on how many people survive the weekend?
Marie Yovanovich retired earlier this week. Who does that leave? Didn't Fiona Hill leave her post before testifying?
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Old 02-07-2020, 07:12 PM
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He probably can't do a whole lot to Romney directly. Maybe cut some federal contract or program that benefits Massachusetts.
Surprised that Mitch hasn't yanked all of Romney's committee assignments.
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Old 02-07-2020, 07:16 PM
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It's the "Saturday Night I Can Do Anytining I Want-acre". Friday, really, but he can do whatever he wants,
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Old 02-07-2020, 07:17 PM
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Trump also fired Vindman's twin brother.
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Old 02-07-2020, 07:19 PM
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He probably can't do a whole lot to Romney directly. Maybe cut some federal contract or program that benefits Massachusetts.
Trump just might be stupid enough to do that, right? Romney is the Senator from Utah.
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Old 02-07-2020, 07:24 PM
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This is the lesson Trump learned from impeachment -- that he can do absolutely anything he wants to, and his party will back him up.
Did he, or did he not, serve at the pleasure of the President?
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Old 02-07-2020, 07:30 PM
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Did he, or did he not, serve at the pleasure of the President?
No idea what this has to do with my post.
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Old 02-07-2020, 07:34 PM
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Everything the President legally can do is 100% proper and utterly unquestionable.
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Old 02-07-2020, 07:36 PM
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This is the lesson Trump learned from impeachment -- that he can do absolutely anything he wants to, and his party will back him up.
The Senate's mistake is in believing that they can continue to control this administration's impulses forever. Right now, GOP congressmen fear Trump's base. In time, however, they may learn to fear much more than that.

The moment the authoritarian is crossed, is the moment you are the authoritarian's enemy.
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Old 02-07-2020, 07:39 PM
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And it continues

BREAKING: President Trump fires Gordon Sondland, the second impeachment witness to be removed from his post Friday
Think he'll get a refund on his million dollars?
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Old 02-07-2020, 07:44 PM
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Did he, or did he not, serve at the pleasure of the President?
He did, but there is more to it than that. There is the technical letter of the law, and there is the law's spirit.

Is the president firing people because they're not capable of communicating the national interests of the United States government, or were they fired because the president wanted to punish them for their testimony related to his criminal conduct?

It takes more than law to constrain someone who abuses power; it requires virtue among ordinary citizens, to uphold the value system that makes public servants accountable. You apparently don't think he should be held accountable for criminal conduct. Well then, you can expect more of the same.
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Old 02-07-2020, 07:48 PM
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Just because something is legal doesn't make it right. I live in a state where my employer can fire me at any time without needing any reason. If my employer fires me because I refuse to spend my lunch break running her personal errands, she had the legal right. If she wants to fire me because I voted for the wrong person, in her book, in the last election she has the legal right. She might have to cover it up with a different story, but she can fire me because I get pregnant, or start a same sex relationship, or because she doesn't like the shade of eyeshadow I wore last Tuesday. Does that make it morally right? Being able to do something isn't a carte blanche to do it regardless of the reason.

This is retaliation, pure and simple. He's not even being coy about it.
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Old 02-07-2020, 07:53 PM
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Trump just might be stupid enough to do that, right? Romney is the Senator from Utah.
Dammit! I knew that.
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Old 02-07-2020, 07:54 PM
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He probably can't do a whole lot to Romney directly. Maybe cut some federal contract or program that benefits Massachusetts.
I think you mean Utah
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Old 02-07-2020, 07:55 PM
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Think he'll get a refund on his million dollars?
I never thought the leopards would eat my face, says man who donated one million dollars to the Leopards Eating People's Faces Party and then went to work for them.
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Old 02-07-2020, 07:56 PM
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I think you mean Utah
Damn autocorrect.
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Old 02-07-2020, 08:03 PM
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Dammit! I knew that.
Already a much better human than our president. You can admit your mistake, no sharpie maps needed.

Last edited by MulderMuffin; 02-07-2020 at 08:04 PM.
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Old 02-07-2020, 08:17 PM
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Impeachment officials, where are they now:

Sondland and Vindman have been removed from their posts by the president today.

Yovanovich, Hill, Morrison, Taylor, Volker, and Williams have retired from their posts already.

Holmes, Cooper, Hale, and Kent are currently (as of 8:15 PM EST today) still in their roles.

Who is next? I vote Cooper. Trump hates a woman standing up to him.
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Old 02-07-2020, 08:36 PM
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Did he, or did he not, serve at the pleasure of the President?
And what, pray tell, did Yevgeny Vindman do to deserve the displeasure of the President?
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Old 02-07-2020, 08:45 PM
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Trump also fired Vindman's twin brother.
To be clear, neither were fired in the civilian sense of that word. Both brothers continue to serve as Lieutenant Colonels in the US Army. They will continue to collect all the pay and allowances due their rank and time in service. They will be performing different duties tomorrow.

Sondland was fired.
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Old 02-07-2020, 09:31 PM
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Did he, or did he not, serve at the pleasure of the President?
Sondland did. Is it the case that someone in either of the Vinlands' positions is considered a political appointee? If you are asserting that they are, can you back that up?

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To be clear, neither were fired in the civilian sense of that word. Both brothers continue to serve as Lieutenant Colonels in the US Army. They will continue to collect all the pay and allowances due their rank and time in service. They will be performing different duties tomorrow.

Sondland was fired.
For now. The president has shown a willingness to interfere in those things, but I hope he does not.

Last edited by eschrodinger; 02-07-2020 at 09:34 PM.
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Old 02-07-2020, 09:36 PM
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To be clear, neither were fired in the civilian sense of that word. Both brothers continue to serve as Lieutenant Colonels in the US Army. They will continue to collect all the pay and allowances due their rank and time in service. They will be performing different duties tomorrow.
I was kind of wondering about this. Who gets to decide where they will be re-assigned? Is it possible for Trump, in his role as commander-in-chief, to get them assigned to some crap post?

Last edited by joebuck20; 02-07-2020 at 09:36 PM.
  #29  
Old 02-07-2020, 09:55 PM
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I was kind of wondering about this. Who gets to decide where they will be re-assigned? Is it possible for Trump, in his role as commander-in-chief, to get them assigned to some crap post?
Like latrine duty at Mar-a-Lago? Or eyeballing N.Korean warships from Nome?
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Old 02-07-2020, 10:01 PM
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I'm waiting for someone to get shot in the eye while getting a message. The Don has started to settle the scores.
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Old 02-07-2020, 10:03 PM
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DETRIMENTO•MALIGNITAS•VICTORIA•VLTIO

Antony Jay: Yes Minister vol. 1 “In defeat, malice. In victory, revenge”
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Old 02-07-2020, 10:15 PM
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And what, pray tell, did Yevgeny Vindman do to deserve the displeasure of the President?
They are twins, he can’t tell them apart; so fire both just to be sure. Reminds me of umbridge in Harry Potter.
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Old 02-07-2020, 11:24 PM
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And what, pray tell, did Yevgeny Vindman do to deserve the displeasure of the President?
An article I read today in the NYT said that he had accompanied his brother to his testimony and sat behind him.
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Old 02-07-2020, 11:53 PM
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Atkinson might not last much longer, either. The cheek! Imagine the inspector general of the intelligence community actually sending a whistleblower report to Congress! Obviously he has to go. /s


https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...293_story.html


Quote:
The president and his advisers have also discussed removing Michael Atkinson, the inspector general of the intelligence community, though no final decision has been made, officials said. Trump has expressed frustration that Atkinson allowed a whistleblower report documenting Trump’s alleged misconduct toward Ukraine to be transmitted to Congress.
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Old 02-07-2020, 11:54 PM
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If Trump announces that the United States will be reorganised into the First Second Third American Empire, for a safer society, would that get him removed? Or a crown?
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Old 02-08-2020, 12:04 AM
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To be clear, neither were fired in the civilian sense of that word. Both brothers continue to serve as Lieutenant Colonels in the US Army. They will continue to collect all the pay and allowances due their rank and time in service. They will be performing different duties tomorrow.

Sondland was fired.


Sure, but for an officer, being unceremoniously dumped from a prestige job like working in the Whitehouse is huge hit, and will probably spell the end of their career. "Up or out" is a pretty firm rule in the US military; if you're not getting regular promotions, they pretty much assume you should be gone. And promotions are very unlikely for either of these guys so long as Trump is in charge.
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Old 02-08-2020, 12:37 AM
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And what, pray tell, did Yevgeny Vindman do to deserve the displeasure of the President?
I don't know, never heard of him until today.

Doesn't change the meaning of "serves at the pleasure of the President".

And that applies to all Presidents.
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Old 02-08-2020, 04:38 AM
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I don't know, never heard of him until today.

Doesn't change the meaning of "serves at the pleasure of the President".

And that applies to all Presidents.
Sure, and state government executive staff serve at the pleasure of their Governor. But firing, punishing, or threatening staff who have or may testify sure looks like witness tampering, a form of obstruction.
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Old 02-08-2020, 06:38 AM
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And that applies to all Presidents.
So you won't have a problem with the next Democratic President behaving exactly the same way Trump has been behaving?

Maybe some of the Democrats ought to be calling Putin about that Trump Hotel Moscow deal. And calling China about the deals they made for Ivanka.
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Old 02-08-2020, 08:02 AM
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DETRIMENTO•MALIGNITAS•VICTORIA•VLTIO

Antony Jay: Yes Minister vol. 1 “In defeat, malice. In victory, revenge”
Wow, so appropriate. Thanks for this.
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Old 02-08-2020, 08:08 AM
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Did he, or did he not, serve at the pleasure of the President?
"Does, or does not. There is no why."

— D'Anconiyodah
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Old 02-08-2020, 08:29 AM
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Re: mass arrests, that's not the stage we're at right now.

If you're building an authoritarian regime, your first order of business is neutralizing and wiping out your political rivals at the top. What Trump, Pompeo, and Barr intend to do is to drive into extinction the current civil service culture of faithful, neutral service to the public - that's what they're doing right as we speak.

They're purging the government of its critics in much the same way that Erdogan purged his enemies after taking power - the only difference is that he hasn't actually cooked up charges and thrown them in jail, but don't for a moment think I'm being hyperbolic when I say that Bill Barr is heading in that direction. This isn't Asahi being chicken little; this is what we're writing about in this thread.

Don't believe me? Then take a look at this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...293_story.html

Quote:
More firings are possible.

The president and his advisers have also discussed removing Michael Atkinson, the inspector general of the intelligence community, though no final decision has been made, officials said. Trump has expressed frustration that Atkinson allowed a whistleblower report documenting Trump’s alleged misconduct toward Ukraine to be transmitted to Congress.
Now let that sink in for a moment. The firings out of revenge and spit? Firings for not being enough of a yes man? Meh, that's normal now. General Kelly. General Mattis. Tillerson. Sessions. This country made it normal when we just shrugged and accepted that this is Trump being Trump.

But now we're talking about firing someone who's job is keeping government clean and accountable to the people. That's a major step toward authoritarian rule and replacing the rule of law with the rule of men. Imagine for a moment the scenarios that can unfold if the bureaucratic culture of doing what you were hired to do for the public trust is replaced with doing whatever Trump needs you to do to make sure he crushes his political rivals. Imagine what the FBI looks like then. Imagine what the DoJ looks like then. Or DHS, or the US Marshal Service, or even the military.

Will this be noticeable today, tomorrow, or next week? Maybe not, but rest assured: we're on our way there right now as we speak.

Quote:
Some advisers have also counseled the president to remove Victoria Coates, the deputy national security adviser, who has told others in the White House that she fears her job is in jeopardy.
Right now, she has only the loss of her job and her career to worry about. In the future, the price will be much higher than that.

Last edited by asahi; 02-08-2020 at 08:30 AM.
  #43  
Old 02-08-2020, 08:37 AM
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I'm waiting for someone to get shot in the eye while getting a message. The Don has started to settle the scores.
I meant massage. Dummy me.

Looks like Donald emulated one of his heroes and had his own Night Of The Long Knives. The message is clear- fuck with The Don at your own peril.
  #44  
Old 02-08-2020, 08:40 AM
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Did he, or did he not, serve at the pleasure of the President?
Is the President, or his he not, displeased that others told the truth about how rotten he is?
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Old 02-08-2020, 09:16 AM
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BobLibDem,

"message" fits OK
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Old 02-08-2020, 09:22 AM
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Anything Goes


Originally Posted by D'Anconia
Did he, or did he not, serve at the pleasure of the President?


Good point and folks who work in the WH kitchen could dry their sweat socks in the microwave.
  #47  
Old 02-08-2020, 09:32 AM
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I don't know, never heard of him until today.
Then why on earth would you feel qualified to have an opinion, or even to ask a leading question, on the matter?

Last edited by Left Hand of Dorkness; 02-08-2020 at 09:33 AM.
  #48  
Old 02-08-2020, 09:43 AM
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I don't know, never heard of him until today.

Doesn't change the meaning of "serves at the pleasure of the President".

And that applies to all Presidents.
I still don't understand what your point is. Care to elaborate?
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Old 02-08-2020, 09:45 AM
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BobLibDem,

"message" fits OK
I was thinking Moe Greene of the Godfather but yes getting or giving the wrong message is also a capital crime for The Don.
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Old 02-08-2020, 09:55 AM
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I know but he got the message
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