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  #101  
Old 02-12-2020, 12:06 PM
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Didn’t Vindman just get transferred back to the Pentagon? He was scheduled to go the War College. What about the 70 plus others that were hold overs from the Obama Administration in the foreign office? Also everyone leaving the White House after being released from their duties, I believe, would be escorted.
  #102  
Old 02-12-2020, 12:11 PM
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But now that a sitting president is openly conducting mass retributions -- which are a far more obvious and blatant warning against anyone else who might investigate or even criticize him or his cronies -- there's complete silence from Kass.

Utter IOKIARDI. The right has zero credibility anymore.
The credibility train left the station years ago.

The new thing we're seeing now is the publicity. Republicans used to at least hide it when they were breaking laws. Now we have a Republican President who publicly brags about his plans to break the law.

Why should he bother hiding it when he commits a crime? The Republican majority in the Supreme Court has said he can't be charged with a crime and the Republican majority in the Senate has said he can't be impeached. And Trump has bragged about how his voter base wouldn't care if he murdered somebody in public.
  #103  
Old 02-12-2020, 01:40 PM
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Robert O'Brian assures us all that the Vindmans were not fired, merely removed from their jobs months ahead of schedule. Nothing personal. Just getting rid of all of the career officials.

Quote:
O’Brien disputed the notion that the Vindmans were fired, but said that because of the NSC’s small budget, “as we reduce the number of detailees, the percentage of political appointees will increase slightly.”
Gotta make sure we only have lackeys that know how to kiss ass on the National Security Council, right? Nothing personal.

Last edited by MulderMuffin; 02-12-2020 at 01:40 PM.
  #104  
Old 02-12-2020, 03:45 PM
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The Vindman’s were not elected. They have only advisory position. They do NOT make Foreign policy.
  #105  
Old 02-13-2020, 09:57 AM
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Your point being?
  #106  
Old 02-13-2020, 12:01 PM
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John Kelly defends Vindman and implies Trump's actions were illegal:

"During an event at Drew University in New Jersey, Kelly said Vindman, who was on Trump’s infamous call with Zelensky, was doing what he had been trained to do as a military officer when he reported Trump’s request that Zelensky investigate Joe Biden to a White House lawyer.

Kelly described Trump’s request as an “illegal order.”

“We teach them, ‘Don’t follow an illegal order. And if you’re ever given one, you’ll raise it to whoever gives it to you that this is an illegal order, and then tell your boss,'” the former White House official said, according to the Atlantic."

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/j...-illegal-order

And not surprisingly, Trump attacks Kelly in a tweet soon after.
  #107  
Old 02-13-2020, 01:51 PM
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The Vindman’s were not elected. They have only advisory position. They do NOT make Foreign policy.
Maybe you should tell that to Robert O’Brien:

‘We are not a banana republic’: National security adviser defends Vindman dismissals

Quote:
“We’re not a country where a bunch of lieutenant colonels can get together and decide what the policy is of the United States,” O’Brien said during an event at the Atlantic Council think tank. “We are not a banana republic.”
Regarding this quote in particular, perhaps he could remind us which "banana republics" have had lieutenant colonels making policy (rather than, you know, the dictator).

Last edited by Dahnlor; 02-13-2020 at 01:53 PM.
  #108  
Old 02-13-2020, 05:19 PM
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Can the Vindman brothers sue? That could get interesting.
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  #109  
Old 02-13-2020, 07:07 PM
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Can the Vindman brothers sue? That could get interesting.
IINAL but no would be my answer.their jobs aren’t guaranteed. The military guy was just transferred back to the pentagon.
  #110  
Old 02-13-2020, 07:10 PM
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Maybe you should tell that to Robert O’Brien:

‘We are not a banana republic’: National security adviser defends Vindman dismissals

Regarding this quote in particular, perhaps he could remind us which "banana republics" have had lieutenant colonels making policy (rather than, you know, the dictator).
The President is the CIC , he’s their boss. He doesn’t have to ask them anything..actually I believe there is article about foreign policies in the Constitution.

Last edited by eenerms; 02-13-2020 at 07:11 PM.
  #111  
Old 02-14-2020, 09:09 AM
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The President is the CIC , he’s their boss. He doesn’t have to ask them anything..actually I believe there is article about foreign policies in the Constitution.
Soldiers following the proper procedure for reporting illegal orders are not "making policy."
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  #112  
Old 02-14-2020, 09:14 AM
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Soldiers following the proper procedure for reporting illegal orders are not "making policy."
He didn’t follow the chain of command. He did not report to his direct supervisor but gossiped with his brother and two others.
  #113  
Old 02-14-2020, 09:16 AM
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He didn’t follow the chain of command. He did not report to his direct supervisor but gossiped with his brother and two others.
He admitted that at the hearing. He didn’t say gossiped...
  #114  
Old 02-14-2020, 09:23 AM
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He didn’t follow the chain of command. He did not report to his direct supervisor but gossiped with his brother and two others.
At least you accept they were illegal orders.
  #115  
Old 02-14-2020, 09:28 AM
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He didn’t follow the chain of command. He did not report to his direct supervisor but gossiped with his brother and two others.
This is entirely factually false. Here is the sequence of events:

Quote:
The first event occurred at a July 10 meeting between Ukraine's then Secretary of National Security and Defense Council Oleksandr Danylyuk, and then US National Security Advisor John Bolton, at which Ambassadors Volker and Sondland, and Energy Secretary Rick Perry were in attendance, and at which Sondland asked Ukraine to launch investigations into the Bidens in order to get a meeting with President Trump. Vindman states that Bolton cut the meeting short, and that both Vindman and Hill told Ambassador Sondland that his comments were inappropriate and reported their concerns to the NSC's lead counsel.

<snip>

The second event occurred on a July 25 phone call between Presidents Trump and Zelensky. Vindman states, "I was concerned by the call. I did not think it was proper to demand that a foreign government investigate a U.S. citizen, and I was worried about the implications for the U.S. Government's support of Ukraine. I realized that if Ukraine pursued an investigation into the Bidens and Burisma, it would likely be interpreted as a partisan play which would undoubtedly result in Ukraine losing the bipartisan support it has thus far maintained. This would all undermine U.S. national security." Vindman also stated that he reported his concern to the NSC's lead counsel, John Eisenberg.

Vindman later testified in person before the US House of Representatives on November 19, 2019. In his testimony, Vindman stated that he made a report to an intelligence official about what he heard during Trump's call with the Ukrainian President and felt what the President mentioned during the phone conversation was "improper."
None of these actions was improper in any sense. On the contrary, these were all the exactly-correct actions for a military officer who believes he has witnessed something that might be illegal by senior officials. He reported what he observed to his superiors, and honestly answered questions about it from Congress. There is not a hint of evidence that Vindman did anything inappropriate.
  #116  
Old 02-14-2020, 10:02 AM
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At least you accept they were illegal orders.
Nope I wasn’t.
  #117  
Old 02-14-2020, 11:53 AM
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Nope I wasn’t.
Then why did you quibble about the reporting lines point? You can't put the goalposts back and then pretend you hadn't moved them in the first place.
  #118  
Old 02-14-2020, 12:57 PM
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The DoJ is dropping the case against McCabe.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/jus...-head-n1137066

I wonder if this is Barr's way of telling Trump to shut his ass up. He (and Pence) might be one of the very few who's in a position to tell Trump to shove it. The danger is that Trump doesn't realize it and fires Barr in an escalating ego war, but if Trump does that, he'd end up with a temporary acting AG, which is what he had in Matt Whitaker.

Last edited by asahi; 02-14-2020 at 12:58 PM.
  #119  
Old 02-14-2020, 02:26 PM
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Trump II, The Revenge of the Trump


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The DoJ is dropping the case against McCabe.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/jus...-head-n1137066
The other story not getting as much notice is that Barr has also appointed a special prosecutor to re-examine the handling of the Flynn case. I expect this is an effort to appease DJT.

https://apple.news/AU-Wueop0RWKY-4kXWfiMsQ

Last edited by Kolak of Twilo; 02-14-2020 at 02:28 PM.
  #120  
Old 02-15-2020, 12:27 AM
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I wonder if this is Barr's way of telling Trump to shut his ass up. He (and Pence) might be one of the very few who's in a position to tell Trump to shove it. The danger is that Trump doesn't realize it and fires Barr in an escalating ego war, but if Trump does that, he'd end up with a temporary acting AG, which is what he had in Matt Whitaker.

I think Barr is just warning the President to stop saying the quiet part out loud. It makes it hard for Barr to be an effective enforcer and fixer if Trump tells the world that he's doing it explicitly on the orders of the President.
  #121  
Old 02-15-2020, 02:16 AM
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On the other hand, Trump doesn't just want his orders carried out, he wants the world to know that everyone is jumping to his command, wants everyone to see his power and glory. He isn't afraid of pushback. He's been explicitly told that he can, in fact, do anything he wants, and Republicans, the Justice department, nobody, will stop him.
  #122  
Old 02-15-2020, 12:25 PM
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I think Barr is just warning the President to stop saying the quiet part out loud. It makes it hard for Barr to be an effective enforcer and fixer if Trump tells the world that he's doing it explicitly on the orders of the President.
I believe Barr's ego is hurt because Trump won't pay heed.
  #123  
Old 02-15-2020, 01:22 PM
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I believe Barr's ego is hurt because Trump won't pay heed.
I believe Barr should be smart enough to know that this is not a bug, it is a feature.
  #124  
Old 02-15-2020, 02:52 PM
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Behold the canonical list of Trump administration dismissals and resignations, which also includes standard retirements and promotions so we can't just analyze the whole list to see which executive departments and independent agencies have seen the most turnover. And I'm too lazy to dig out the causes. Still, I can only wonder: who's next?

I sure wish the US had a Deep State. Then the nation wouldn't be in this mess.
  #125  
Old 02-15-2020, 03:27 PM
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Behold the canonical list of Trump administration dismissals and resignations, which also includes standard retirements and promotions so we can't just analyze the whole list to see which executive departments and independent agencies have seen the most turnover. And I'm too lazy to dig out the causes. Still, I can only wonder: who's next?

I sure wish the US had a Deep State. Then the nation wouldn't be in this mess.
So what, look up Obama’s tenure, he changed all the ambassadors and others.
  #126  
Old 02-17-2020, 05:26 AM
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"Lots of people go into banks to withdraw money - how are they different from me, just because I did it at gunpoint?"
  #127  
Old 02-17-2020, 11:29 AM
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So what, look up Obama’s tenure, he changed all the ambassadors and others.
Yeah, how about we look at actual numbers:
Trump Has Now Had More Cabinet Turnover Than Reagan, Obama and the Two Bushes (And that was as of last summer, after just 2.5 years in office.)

38% of President Trump’s “A Team” departures have undergone serial turnover as of Feb. 14, 2020
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  #128  
Old 02-17-2020, 12:08 PM
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That was extremely interesting. Thank you for sharing it.
  #129  
Old 02-17-2020, 10:03 PM
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So what, look up Obama’s tenure, he changed all the ambassadors and others.
Ambassadors and prosecutors are regularly replaced by a new administration. Firings and resignations of large batches of cabinet and agency officials and staff are uncommon. Rewarding domestic and war criminals is also uncommon. I didn't see either in the Obama or Clinton years. NOTE: I did not vote for Obama, or any Clinton or their krew. No, Obama was hardly a perfect president. But his toe-jam is classier than this POTUS.
  #130  
Old 02-18-2020, 08:18 AM
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Ambassadors and prosecutors are regularly replaced by a new administration. Firings and resignations of large batches of cabinet and agency officials and staff are uncommon. Rewarding domestic and war criminals is also uncommon. I didn't see either in the Obama or Clinton years. NOTE: I did not vote for Obama, or any Clinton or their krew. No, Obama was hardly a perfect president. But his toe-jam is classier than this POTUS.
TDS
  #131  
Old 02-18-2020, 08:22 AM
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TDS
I'd say your refusal to recognize the factual sequence of events (laid out in post #115) regarding Vindman's actions is "TDS".

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 02-18-2020 at 08:22 AM.
  #132  
Old 02-18-2020, 10:53 AM
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TDS
This argument is the equivalent of yelling "ARGLE BARGLE" while sticking your fingers in your ears; satisfying to you, but unpersuasive to anyone else.
  #133  
Old 02-18-2020, 11:32 AM
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Trump threatens to sue his investigators and demands Roger Stone case be 'thrown out'

Trump: 'My lapdogs didn't convict me, so everyone else who was convicted is totally innocent. And since they're innocent... totally innocent... that PROVES I did nothing wrong!'
  #134  
Old 02-18-2020, 07:41 PM
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This argument is the equivalent of yelling "ARGLE BARGLE" while sticking your fingers in your ears; satisfying to you, but unpersuasive to anyone else.
Right..people Hate a Trump no matter What. They will vote for Bloomberg, a rasist(proven) sexist, tyrant because they figure he can beat Trump. I didn’t vote for a Trump, not my deal. But I love the USA ( after living in multiple, socialists, dictatorships and not free countries) more than I hate a Trump.

Last edited by eenerms; 02-18-2020 at 07:43 PM.
  #135  
Old 02-18-2020, 08:32 PM
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TDS
The Daily Show?
  #136  
Old 02-18-2020, 10:20 PM
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The Daily Show?
TDS = Trump Derangement Syndrome.
  #137  
Old 02-19-2020, 09:44 AM
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I posted this over in the Clusterfuck thread but it also can go here:

Purge continues: Top Pentagon official connected to Trump Ukraine scandal is out

Quote:
A top Pentagon official who objected to President Donald Trump’s decision to withhold military aid to Ukraine has been pushed out of his job, CNN is reporting.

According to CNN, John Rood, Under Secretary of Defense for Policy at the Pentagon, has been asked for his resignation after he “lost support among senior national security leadership.”

CNN’s sources say that Rood objected to President Donald Trump’s efforts to shake down the Ukrainian government to get it to announce an investigation into former Vice President Joe Biden.
  #138  
Old 02-19-2020, 09:53 AM
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Right..people Hate a Trump no matter What. They will vote for Bloomberg, a rasist(proven) sexist, tyrant because they figure he can beat Trump. I didn’t vote for a Trump, not my deal. But I love the USA ( after living in multiple, socialists, dictatorships and not free countries) more than I hate a Trump.
They were talking about Obama, not Bloomberg. The TDS does exist, but not in the way you think. It is deranged behavior when almost all Republicans tell us that the embodiment of the 7 deadly sins is better than the alternatives.
  #139  
Old 02-19-2020, 10:08 AM
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( after living in multiple, socialists, dictatorships and not free countries)
Which ones?



.

Last edited by Johnny L.A.; 02-19-2020 at 10:09 AM.
  #140  
Old 02-19-2020, 03:28 PM
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Which ones?



.
Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Australia, Italy and UK.

Last edited by eenerms; 02-19-2020 at 03:29 PM.
  #141  
Old 02-19-2020, 04:24 PM
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Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Australia, Italy and UK.


Australia, Italy and the UK are not socialist or dictatorships and are free countries by any commonly accepted definition.
  #142  
Old 02-19-2020, 07:25 PM
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. But I love the USA ( after living in multiple, socialists, dictatorships and not free countries) more than I hate a Trump.
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Originally Posted by Johnny L.A. View Post
Which ones?.
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Originally Posted by eenerms View Post
Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Australia, Italy and UK.
https://www.cato.org/human-freedom-index-new
• Rule of Law
• Security and Safety
• Movement
• Religion
• Association, Assembly, and Civil Society
• Expression and Information
• Identity and Relationships
• Size of Government
• Legal System and Property Rights
• Access to Sound Money
• Freedom to Trade Internationally
• Regulation of Credit, Labor, and Business

The jurisdictions that took the top 10 places in 2019, in order, were
#1 New Zealand,
#2 Switzerland,
#3 Hong Kong,
#4 Canada,
#5 Australia,
#6 Denmark and Luxembourg (tied in 6th place),
#8 Finland and Germany (tied in 8th place),
#10 Ireland

United Kingdom (14)
United States (15)
Give you merkins credit, your ranking is up from the mid 20s just a couple of years ago.

But it would seem apparent that you wouldn’t recognise what actually constitutes freedom if you were literally living amongst it.
  #143  
Old 02-19-2020, 08:33 PM
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Australia, Italy and the UK are not socialist or dictatorships and are free countries by any commonly accepted definition.
Australia, UK and Italy are more socialist than here. I didn’t call them dictatorships , just KSA and Qatar where there is no freedom of Speech, assembly, press, religion. And as a woman living there I know what it was like being discriminated against and suppressed.
  #144  
Old 02-19-2020, 08:35 PM
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https://www.cato.org/human-freedom-index-new
• Rule of Law
• Security and Safety
• Movement
• Religion
• Association, Assembly, and Civil Society
• Expression and Information
• Identity and Relationships
• Size of Government
• Legal System and Property Rights
• Access to Sound Money
• Freedom to Trade Internationally
• Regulation of Credit, Labor, and Business

The jurisdictions that took the top 10 places in 2019, in order, were
#1 New Zealand,
#2 Switzerland,
#3 Hong Kong,
#4 Canada,
#5 Australia,
#6 Denmark and Luxembourg (tied in 6th place),
#8 Finland and Germany (tied in 8th place),
#10 Ireland

United Kingdom (14)
United States (15)
Give you merkins credit, your ranking is up from the mid 20s just a couple of years ago.

But it would seem apparent that you wouldn’t recognise what actually constitutes freedom if you were literally living amongst it.
Right I lived in a bubble in those places. I was so unaware..
  #145  
Old 02-19-2020, 08:39 PM
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( after living in multiple, socialists, dictatorships and not free countries)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny L.A. View Post
Which ones?
Quote:
Originally Posted by eenerms View Post
Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Australia, Italy and UK.
[emphasis mine]

Quote:
Originally Posted by eenerms View Post
Australia, UK and Italy are more socialist than here. I didn’t call them dictatorships...
No? [Emphasis mine]

Quote:
Originally Posted by eenerms View Post
Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Australia, Italy and UK.
  #146  
Old 02-19-2020, 09:17 PM
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Right I lived in a bubble in those places. I was so unaware..
No, think it's more the case you are living in delusion where you are now.
  #147  
Old 02-20-2020, 09:48 AM
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[emphasis mine]



No? [Emphasis mine]
You misunderstood , my bad and I’m out...
  #148  
Old 02-20-2020, 11:39 AM
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It is deranged behavior when almost all Republicans tell us that the embodiment of the 7 deadly sins is better than the alternatives.
Good point. Does Donny Two-scoops not embody any of the seven? Gluttony might be one if you consider Two-scoops just Greed. How many hamberders does he eat at a time?
  #149  
Old 02-20-2020, 08:46 PM
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Was reading the thread again and wanted to go back to this because it's important, especially now.

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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
John Kelly defends Vindman and implies Trump's actions were illegal:

"During an event at Drew University in New Jersey, Kelly said Vindman, who was on Trump’s infamous call with Zelensky, was doing what he had been trained to do as a military officer when he reported Trump’s request that Zelensky investigate Joe Biden to a White House lawyer.

Kelly described Trump’s request as an “illegal order.”

“We teach them, ‘Don’t follow an illegal order. And if you’re ever given one, you’ll raise it to whoever gives it to you that this is an illegal order, and then tell your boss,'” the former White House official said, according to the Atlantic."
Yeah, well, Kelly was an enabler. What Kelly and all of Trump's enablers don't seem to understand is that Trump and the GOP are effectively creating a parallel government, a parallel system of justice, a parallel constitution, a parallel political reality. This is a real, clear, and present danger to the principle of self-government.

Everyone of Trump's fired stooges have come to regret their role in creating this monster, but it's too late now - they have no credibility once they're fired.

Anyone who occupies a position of power has to understand this and they have to understand it right now: they cannot be the "adult in the room." There's no picking battles. Mass resignation, mass protest is the only way to save this country. Otherwise, Trump and the corrupt GOP will simply use attrition to drain the last drop of blood out of democracy's dead corpse, and replace it with the embalming fluid of kleptocracy.
  #150  
Old 02-20-2020, 11:57 PM
MulderMuffin is offline
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Location: Buckle of the bible belt
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The firings continue...


Quote:
This week, Trump also asked for the resignation of John C. Rood, the official in charge of Defense Department policy, who had certified that Ukraine had met anti-corruption obligations required by law to receive U.S. aid that Trump froze.
-- Washington Post

Quote:
The deputy national security adviser, Victoria Coates, has also been removed from her post after some colleagues, including trade adviser Peter Navarro, accused her of being the author of “Anonymous,” a scathing account of dysfunction in the White House.
-- Washington Post

And Joseph Maguire has now been removed as acting Director of National Intelligence. Remember him? He testified before Congress about the whistleblower report way back when this whole thing was starting to blow up. Replaced by yet another acting director who's a whole lot more MAGA and a whole lot less qualified. (Seems he let intelligence officials brief the House Intelligence Committee about Russia's renewed efforts to help Trump win in 2020, which is, of course, a lie and a hoax and Deep State, and aaarreggg!) Trump didn't like that one bit. So out he went.
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