#1  
Old 02-08-2020, 06:12 PM
Dr_Paprika is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: South of Toronto, Canada
Posts: 4,301

Jordan Peterson


Jordan Peterson is a popular and controversial psychology professor who has gained a degree of Internet fame. He came out with a philosophy invoking historical and religious references that essentially incorporates 1950s pull-yourself-up advice with a distaste for progressive politics.

His book ď12 Rules For LifeĒ is pretty good, for what it is. He has made some comments others dislike about the uselessness of liberal arts and identity politics.

Apparently he has been ill the last year. I donít know the details. I had read he switched to an all-meat diet, which seems extreme. He became addicted to benzodiazepines, and suffered from restlessness and tremors during withdrawal. Frustrated with his doctors, he went to Russia to be put into a medical coma for eight days.

From a medical point of view, benzo withdrawal takes months and can be very difficult. Iíve never heard of being sedated for it, and doubt eight days would do that much given the length of time usual withdrawal takes. His daughter praised this drastic treatment.

I donít follow the man closely, nor his Internet stuff at all. Anyone have opinions on the man, his philosophy or his problems?
__________________
"A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man"
  #2  
Old 02-08-2020, 06:17 PM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 36,967
From what I've read of his ideas, he's a weird, sexist, pseudo-scientific ignoramus. Not surprising that he's apparently harmed himself with substance dependence and quackery.
  #3  
Old 02-08-2020, 06:24 PM
KarlGauss's Avatar
KarlGauss is offline
Entangled
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Between pole and tropic
Posts: 8,737
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Paprika View Post
From a medical point of view, benzo withdrawal takes months and can be very difficult.
Benzo withdrawal is definitely difficult (and potentially fatal) but I think 'months' is an overstatement.

I can't say I've ever seen somebody 'all the way through' benzo withdrawal but I've had lots of experience caring for people with alcohol and GHB withdrawal (which I'd say are equivalent to benzo withdrawal) and the physical manifestations never lasted more than a week.

Peterson's ostensible symptoms of benzo withdrawal seem very atypical in nature and duration. Makes me think we don't know the whole story or the real story underneath it.
  #4  
Old 02-08-2020, 06:34 PM
friedo's Avatar
friedo is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 24,536
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlGauss View Post
Peterson's ostensible symptoms of benzo withdrawal seem very atypical in nature and duration. Makes me think we don't know the whole story or the real story underneath it.
It makes me think he's perhaps not getting competent medical advice, or perhaps in denial about what's actually wrong.
  #5  
Old 02-08-2020, 07:46 PM
Bill Door is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 5,198
I think it was H. L. Mencken who said "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong'. That sums up my opinion of Jordan Peterson, he's the guy with clear, simple, and wrong solutions. Kind of a Canadian Dr. Phil.

As far as the physical manifestations of benzodiazepine withdrawal I can't see them taking months to clear up, the eight day coma seems adequate, maybe even overkill. I've never really considered the medically induced coma as useful in treating the psychological aspects of drug addiction, it always seemed to me to be a way for people to snooze through the physical withdrawal. They still need to do the hard work to clean up their psychological need for the drug. After all, they're the same people they were when they went into the coma. I almost feel like without having undergone the discomfort of withdrawal they might be more likely to relapse than someone who went through it awake, but with medical support.
  #6  
Old 02-08-2020, 07:48 PM
nearwildheaven is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 13,572
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Door View Post
I think it was H. L. Mencken who said "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong'. That sums up my opinion of Jordan Peterson, he's the guy with clear, simple, and wrong solutions. Kind of a Canadian Dr. Phil.
Jordan Peterson is a nutcase, pure and simple.
  #7  
Old 02-08-2020, 08:21 PM
Bill Door is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 5,198
Quote:
Originally Posted by nearwildheaven View Post
Jordan Peterson is a nutcase, pure and simple.
Yeah, but his solutions are clear and simple, and that has an undeniable appeal to people who aren't smart enough to see the flaws in them. I don't think he's a nutcase, I think he's a conman who knows how to appeal to suckers and thereby get rich. Like Dr. Phil, or Rush Limbaugh.
  #8  
Old 02-08-2020, 08:47 PM
Dr_Paprika is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: South of Toronto, Canada
Posts: 4,301
Benzo withdrawal isnít like alcohol. Iíve seen a fair bit of it, and taking months isnít unusual. Sometimes weeks. Sometimes years. No kidding. Presumably they had already tried more basic withdrawal locally.

I agree the symptoms sound atypical, though, and there is important information that is missing.
__________________
"A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man"
  #9  
Old 02-08-2020, 10:31 PM
MichaelEmouse's Avatar
MichaelEmouse is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 7,420
His opposition to some aspects of progressive politics seems reflexive, even when I think he's right. For example, I once heard him respond to a question about gay marriage by answering that it wouldn't stop extreme progressives from whinging. Perhaps, but surely gay marriage isn't primarily about the whingings of Tumblr gits. Yet that's what it was about to him.

When talking about his opposition to hate speech-related rules obliging people to use someone's preferred pronoun, he conjures up Solzhenitsyn which seems a little much. There may very well be authoritarian progressives who are too harsh on the West and too naive/forgiving towards Communist regimes, especially in academia, but the West isn't at risk of being taken over by Stalinists if some rule requires calling someone by their preferred pronoun. He seems very apprehensive about slippery slopes that would turn us into the USSR.

That kind of reflexive adversarial attitude reminds me of my aunts who were fervent Maoists in the '70s because my jerk of a grandfather hated Communists. If I had to bet, his father was a jerk and a Communist. I think something similar may drive his focus and some of his positions. The horribleness of a person and their philosophy can become merged in one's mind. Incidentally, both those aunts took psychology degrees in college. I think psychology degrees may be common among those who were around toxic people during their formative years.

I liked his Bible commentary series but I couldn't finish it because he spent half the time taking tangents to complain about Commies/Tumblrites. Fine, we get it, they suck, can you get back to the topic? Even when I agree with him, I think he's still too lead by a reactive, combative, defensive attitude towards something he hasn't made clear.

Last edited by MichaelEmouse; 02-08-2020 at 10:32 PM.
  #10  
Old 02-08-2020, 11:49 PM
Senegoid is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Sunny California
Posts: 15,606
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Paprika View Post
Benzo withdrawal isnít like alcohol. Iíve seen a fair bit of it, and taking months isnít unusual. Sometimes weeks. Sometimes years. No kidding. Presumably they had already tried more basic withdrawal locally.

I agree the symptoms sound atypical, though, and there is important information that is missing.
Benzo withdrawal survivor here. Clonazepam, to be specific -- same shit as Dr. P. was on. For over a year, I wasn't sure if surviving was a desirable outcome.

I went to live with relatives, thinking it would take about three weeks. Fast forward eight months: Relatives getting fed up with me. I moved into a nursing home (thinking I might well be there for the rest of my life) for another eight months before I felt well enough to move out and live independently again. Even after that, I didn't feel quite "right" for another year. That was all 15 years ago.

Benzo dependence and withdrawal isn't like other kinds of drug withdrawal. It's said to be tougher than kicking heroin. It's nasty. My major discomforts were primarily severe insomnia and resulting very insufficient sleep, and near constant non-stop panic attacks. For a fucking year and a half.

Six different doctors that I saw didn't know shit about benzo dependence and withdrawal. Most of them gave me different meds to try to help, none of which worked very well. One suggested I try yoga.

Retired Dr. Heather Ashton ran a residential benzo rehab clinic for a dozen years and wrote a paper on the subject. She seems to know a thing or two on the subject. See: Benzodiazipines: How They Work And How To Withdraw
  #11  
Old 02-09-2020, 12:08 AM
Defensive Indifference is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 7,579
Quote:
Originally Posted by Senegoid View Post
Benzo withdrawal survivor here. Clonazepam, to be specific -- same shit as Dr. P. was on.
I can't imagine how awful that must have been.

If I may ask, were you initially prescribed clonazepam by a doctor, then your use of it became a problem? Were you then able to continue getting it through prescriptions, or did you have to get your supply over the black market? I'm just curious about the logistics of benzo abuse. I mean, does a dealer one day ask you, "hey, you ever tried benzos?", or is it more a case of working the medical system to get over-prescribed?
  #12  
Old 02-09-2020, 01:48 AM
TokyoBayer's Avatar
TokyoBayer is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Taiwan
Posts: 10,802
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlGauss View Post
Peterson's ostensible symptoms of benzo withdrawal seem very atypical in nature and duration. Makes me think we don't know the whole story or the real story underneath it.
Yeah. Having an addiction wouldn’t be good for the brand image.
  #13  
Old 02-09-2020, 02:21 AM
Derleth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Missoula, Montana, USA
Posts: 21,469
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Door View Post
Yeah, but his solutions are clear and simple, and that has an undeniable appeal to people who aren't smart enough to see the flaws in them. I don't think he's a nutcase, I think he's a conman who knows how to appeal to suckers and thereby get rich. Like Dr. Phil, or Rush Limbaugh.
A big part of his scam is pretending to take the problems of young White men seriously, without comparing them to the problems of other groups.

This is so simple that only a simple mind could come up with it, I suppose; it's certainly refreshing to people whose only contact with Progressive thought is through the people who can only talk about problems through the lens of their bastardization of the concept of Privilege, wherein Privilege is inherent to certain kinds of people, who therefore have no real problems and deserve no sympathy. If it's a comparison between people who will laugh at you for being "fragile" and a person who will tell you that you have legitimate problems you're capable of fixing, there's no competition. The fact his fix starts with cleaning your room is rather secondary.

TL;DR: Progressives need to get their real messages out more and shout down the assholes who are replacing useful concepts with pointing and laughing. I'm sure this will happen Real Soon Now.
__________________
"Ridicule is the only weapon that can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them."
If you don't stop to analyze the snot spray, you are missing that which is best in life. - Miller
I'm not sure why this is, but I actually find this idea grosser than cannibalism. - Excalibre, after reading one of my surefire million-seller business plans.
  #14  
Old 02-09-2020, 02:51 PM
Senegoid is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Sunny California
Posts: 15,606
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defensive Indifference View Post
If I may ask, were you initially prescribed clonazepam by a doctor, then your use of it became a problem? Were you then able to continue getting it through prescriptions, or did you have to get your supply over the black market? I'm just curious about the logistics of benzo abuse. I mean, does a dealer one day ask you, "hey, you ever tried benzos?", or is it more a case of working the medical system to get over-prescribed?
In my case, I think the main problem was that I'm simply hypersensitive to benzos; but I'd put a bit of blame on the doctors. Doctors used to believe benzos were fairly harmless, and tended to prescribe them quite freely. I think most doctors now are more restrained about it. Medicare will not cover benzos.

My doc prescribed them because of anxiety problems. The truth was, I was rather depressed as well as anxious. Benzos are indicated for anxiety, not for depression. But I wanted them mainly for the depression. The doc kept re-upping the prescription with no questions asked.

I knew that benzos were addictive, and I was careful to be very restrained about using them. The Rx was for 1 mg four times a day as needed. I interpret that to mean I can use any amount I care to use up to a max of that. I took just 1 mg once a day. But by-and-by that didn't help much and I upped to 1 mg twice a day. It helped me sleep too, until it didn't. Also I began to note that I got very jittery when the last dose was wearing off. I began to crave getting my next dose. I managed to maintain enough self-discipline to NOT start taking doses early. I started watching the clock, counting down the minutes until I could get my next hit.

Note that this was all starting to happen when I was taking just 1 mg twice a day -- generally considered a very small dose. I was watching for signs of addiction, and was very aware of what was happening.

At that point, I decided I needed to quit. Since it was such a small dose I was using, I quit cold-turkey one day, and without medical supervision. That apparently was a big mistake. (Discussing it with a doctor some months later, he said that he would have recommended quitting cold-turkey since I was using such a small dose. A different doctor opined that since I was having such a prolonged withdrawal, I might just have to go back on benzos for the rest of my life. )

A strange characteristic of benzo withdrawal is that it can take an unpredictable length of time. Withdrawal symptoms typically last at least six to eight weeks, and in a smaller number of cases, can persist for six months, or a year, or 18 months or more. I was apparently in the 18-month range.

Note, I've also used valium, also with unpleasant but very different obnoxious effects. With valium, at least, I was able to quit easily as best I can recall. That was a long time ago.

I think benzos are bad shit, and I'll be damned before I ever touch them again (except for brief one-day usage for sedation during certain medical procedures).
  #15  
Old 02-09-2020, 03:19 PM
Defensive Indifference is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 7,579
Thanks for that reply, Senegoid. That's very interesting and frightening. My wife took lorazepam for anxiety for a while. It was intended to be short-term, and she transitioned to non-benzos without issue. Before this thread I had no real idea of the addiction potential.
  #16  
Old 02-09-2020, 06:29 PM
nearwildheaven is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 13,572
Lorazepam (Ativan) has a short half-life, and diazepam (Valium) has a much longer half-life, which is one factor that accounts for the difference in its addictive potential and severity of withdrawal symptoms.

Clonazepam appears to have the highest addictive potential of all the benzos, and IMNSHO should only be used for seizure disorders when appropriate, unless absolutely nothing else works for anxiety.

I was also very surprised to find out how old Peterson was. I just figured he was some newly minted crackpot in his 20s or maybe 30s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Peterson
  #17  
Old 02-09-2020, 06:39 PM
Wesley Clark is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 23,134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Senegoid View Post
Benzo withdrawal survivor here. Clonazepam, to be specific -- same shit as Dr. P. was on. For over a year, I wasn't sure if surviving was a desirable outcome.

I went to live with relatives, thinking it would take about three weeks. Fast forward eight months: Relatives getting fed up with me. I moved into a nursing home (thinking I might well be there for the rest of my life) for another eight months before I felt well enough to move out and live independently again. Even after that, I didn't feel quite "right" for another year. That was all 15 years ago.

Benzo dependence and withdrawal isn't like other kinds of drug withdrawal. It's said to be tougher than kicking heroin. It's nasty. My major discomforts were primarily severe insomnia and resulting very insufficient sleep, and near constant non-stop panic attacks. For a fucking year and a half.

Six different doctors that I saw didn't know shit about benzo dependence and withdrawal. Most of them gave me different meds to try to help, none of which worked very well. One suggested I try yoga.

Retired Dr. Heather Ashton ran a residential benzo rehab clinic for a dozen years and wrote a paper on the subject. She seems to know a thing or two on the subject. See: Benzodiazipines: How They Work And How To Withdraw
Yeah, I've heard horror stories about quitting them. Some tapers are half a year or longer.
__________________
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to sparkle motion
  #18  
Old 02-09-2020, 06:42 PM
JRDelirious is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Displaced
Posts: 16,189
I got to use Lorazepam for anxiety when my initial acute episodes hit me hard, luckily never got past that "prn" use and that was it, but it did work great for that purpose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nearwildheaven View Post
I was also very surprised to find out how old Peterson was. I just figured he was some newly minted crackpot in his 20s or maybe 30s.
That is probably a function of how relatively late did he truly blow up on YouTube and was latched upon by the "Watch Person A get [OWNED/SCHOOLED/DESTROYED(*)] by Person B about my pet topic"(*all-caps on the verb mandatory) online social media crowd. So just think, he's been doing his thing for over 30 years at his university, probably guest-lectured in a few places too over that time, and few of us even noticed until he became trending with the "influencers".

That said, best of luck to him in recovery.

Last edited by JRDelirious; 02-09-2020 at 06:45 PM.
  #19  
Old 02-09-2020, 08:49 PM
BigT's Avatar
BigT is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: "Hicksville", Ark.
Posts: 37,160
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlGauss View Post
Benzo withdrawal is definitely difficult (and potentially fatal) but I think 'months' is an overstatement.
It most certainly is not. With long term use, withdrawal is quite long in about 50% of patients. The only way to taper it safely is very, very gradually, and, even then, symptoms are quite bad. I barely made it through it, and I'm still suffering some effects to this day. (Granted, I'm probably out of withdrawal itself by now, but that took 3 years.)

Benzos are not taken seriously enough by many doctors. Like the newer opiates, they thought they were less addictive than their predecessors. But they aren't. The FDA now has guidelines of 2-4 weeks max on Benzos.

Sure, many people take them and seem fine. But, if they ever need to stop taking them--possibly due to them stopping working (tachyphylaxis) or paradoxical effects, but also for other reasons--the results can be devastating. Heck, tachyphylaxis can actually start to induce withdrawal symptoms.

No one is exaggerating. After the hell I went through, I always said I would never wish the experience on even my worst enemy. Well, this is a pretty good example, as Peterson is an awful piece of work, but I absolutely do not think he or anyone else deserves this.

There were times when it was pure torture, panic attacks 24/7, dizziness, car sickness, akasthisia (unable to sit still, very disturbing feeling I still sometimes get to this day), and so on. It was the only time I ever became suicidal--not out of depression, but just because I needed the pain to end. And this was all months after I stopped the medicine.

I beseech you to read up on Dr. Heather Ashton's work on this sort of thing, and just everything about benzo withdrawal, and take it seriously as a doctor yourself.

In 2020 we have enough info out there that no doctor who prescribes benzos should think that "months of withdrawal" is an overstatement. It may be an understatement.

Last edited by BigT; 02-09-2020 at 08:53 PM.
  #20  
Old 02-09-2020, 08:59 PM
BigT's Avatar
BigT is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: "Hicksville", Ark.
Posts: 37,160
As for the guy's symptoms: restlessness was definitely very common--either from anxiety or separately via akasthisia. Tremors less so, though I did get them for a bit. But I could see it happening, especially early on in the same way it does with alcohol.

I actually wonder now if benzos blunted his ability to feel empathy. I think it did for me to some extent. I didn't feel the anxiety that others did, so it was harder to empathize. Not that it made me transphobic or anything, and there was the "chill" feeling that kept me from being a jerk. But I remember caring less about other people's emotions than I do now. (Granted, I was also like that in withdrawal, but that was because I was suffering so much that it was hard to think of others.)
  #21  
Old 02-09-2020, 10:10 PM
pool is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Inside
Posts: 4,832
The coma thing reminds me of something I only learned of recently. I'm sure most of you have heard of electroshock therapy.

But it was only recently I heard and read about Insulin shock therapy where depressives and especially schizophrenics were given overdoses of insulin in order to be put in a coma with a goal of helping them, quite fascinating actually.

There were positive results for some, not so much for others, mostly because of a lot of follow-up care but it's amazing how far we have come from a lot of pseudoscience.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin_shock_therapy
__________________
"You can do anything you set your mind to...But money helps"
  #22  
Old 02-09-2020, 10:21 PM
actualliberalnotoneofthose is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,540
As far as his advice goes, some of it is good, but it reminds me of most Joe Rogan podcasts/guests (I think I first heard of him from there). Taken on their own, there are a lot of good 5-10 minute clips on Youtube about things like motivation, nutrition, sleep hygiene, etc that are useful if you only focus on the soundbites and the content of those clips without exploring deeper into philosophy or other beliefs.
  #23  
Old 02-09-2020, 10:55 PM
sisu is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: oi, oi, oi
Posts: 2,358
Well I am a progressive and a huge fan of his.

Get well Dr.
__________________
My opinions may or may not reflect the truth.........
  #24  
Old 02-09-2020, 11:22 PM
AjŪ de Gallina's Avatar
AjŪ de Gallina is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Lima, Perķ
Posts: 4,571
Man, it's so evident that those dismissing JBP haven't been paying attention or simply second-hand reading his work through critics.
Get well, Dr. Peterson.
  #25  
Old 02-10-2020, 01:39 AM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 27,422
Quote:
Originally Posted by AjŪ de Gallina View Post
Man, it's so evident that those dismissing JBP haven't been paying attention or simply second-hand reading his work through critics.
Get well, Dr. Peterson.
No, sometimes we just watch the man himself. Then we dismiss him.
  #26  
Old 02-10-2020, 03:47 AM
crowmanyclouds's Avatar
crowmanyclouds is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: ... hiding in my room ...
Posts: 4,848
I guess 'trippin on the 'shrooms' is only good for quitting smoking.

CMC fnord!
  #27  
Old 02-10-2020, 04:28 AM
Aspidistra is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 6,031
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDibble View Post
No, sometimes we just watch the man himself. Then we dismiss him.
I would say you owe me ten minutes of my life back now, but in truth it's only 8 minutes thirty seconds, because that was all I could get through without either cutting and running or throwing a brick through the monitor.

The killer thing is, I actually agree that it's foolish to try and formalise the definitions of 'privilege' into a kind of laundry list of dimensions we talk about (race- sex- orientation- gender-ID- ... and then we stop right there) and to ignore others, particularly wealth- and region- which are kind of huge. And if that was his point, well, fine, but if your talk is 95% sneering and 5% point (and even the "point" bit, kind of strawmanning) I don't think you can say you're contributing to civilized conversation
  #28  
Old 02-10-2020, 05:12 AM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 27,422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspidistra View Post
The killer thing is, I actually agree that it's foolish to try and formalise the definitions of 'privilege' into a kind of laundry list of dimensions we talk about (race- sex- orientation- gender-ID- ... and then we stop right there) and to ignore others, particularly wealth- and region- which are kind of huge.
Well, sure, I agree that trying to restrict things to only a handful of dimensions would be foolish - but even the conversation around "White privilege" definitely discusses wealth, especially as it pertains to generational wealth but also the nature of transmitted lifestyles of successful wealth growth and management.
  #29  
Old 02-10-2020, 06:22 AM
TokyoBayer's Avatar
TokyoBayer is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Taiwan
Posts: 10,802
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspidistra View Post
And if that was his point, well, fine, but if your talk is 95% sneering and 5% point (and even the "point" bit, kind of strawmanning) I don't think you can say you're contributing to civilized conversation
Yes. The sneer to point radio is all out of whack, but this is what angry white men want to hear. My racist Republican BIL eats up this kind of shit.
  #30  
Old 02-10-2020, 06:42 AM
Mijin's Avatar
Mijin is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 9,386
I disagree with some here that believe he's a conman; I think he's sincere.
The main issue at this point is that he thinks of himself as incredibly smart, to the point that he doesn't need to research anything, as his intuition will deliver the answer.

You can see the difference, in that sometimes he'll give particularly awkward or nonsensical ideas that leave interviewers lost for words and his audience scratching their heads. If he were just a conman, I think he would not say things to momentarily lose or confuse some of his audience like that. He says those things, because he believes them, because he hasn't thought them through.

It is true though, that at this point he's quite aware of who his audience is, so will restrict what he says to things that pander to that group. I think he truly believes all that white supremacist / sexist crap, but they may be a subset of what he really believes, or he may have doubts, but he knows not to mention anything his audience wouldn't like.
  #31  
Old 02-10-2020, 07:05 AM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 27,422
I don't think he's a conman. I have ex-friends that I think are exactly like him - middle aged white men who did philosophy or classics or psych or lit PhDs at the local ivory tower uni, that in the old days might have meant they were set up for life in a sort of cosy sinecure. And then the world around them changed, the make-up of the universities changed, both in admin and students, the intellectual currents in their professions changed...and they just could not cope. And rather than question "AITA?", they lash out at whatever they think is the cause. Maybe it's postmodernism. Maybe it's Marxism. Maybe it's feminism. Maybe it's critical race theory. Something is the reason they don't get respect anymore (the main drug they crave)

Whatever it is, it's never them.

You will note, I said ex-friends.

Last edited by MrDibble; 02-10-2020 at 07:07 AM.
  #32  
Old 02-10-2020, 07:44 AM
Mijin's Avatar
Mijin is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 9,386
Yeah, I think you've hit it, good post.

And this kind of background is why he never really engages with counter-arguments. If you disagree with him on something, it must be because you belong to one of these groups he maligns. Your well is pre-poisoned. (There are some other influential thinkers that do a similar thing, but I won't name them here as it will probably lead to tangents)
  #33  
Old 02-10-2020, 08:48 AM
orcenio is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NCR
Posts: 2,350
I still consider him a grifter.

He was always a wealthy tenured professor at UofT but lying about Canada's gender laws gave him a platform to sell his brand of self-help political conservatism to vulnerable youth who, in-turn, made him a pop intellectual rock star and filthy rich. Ever since, his self-help grifting never stopped: NYT best sellers, daily interviews with international media, tens of thousands of dollars of speaking fees, millions in free money as a monthly allowance via patreon by enamored fans.

Like a TV preacher all his failed business adventures and wealth generation enviably involves milking it from his flock. He might believe what he preaches only because grifters are too invested to honestly evaluate their predatory actions.

Last edited by orcenio; 02-10-2020 at 08:49 AM.
  #34  
Old 02-10-2020, 09:07 AM
JRDelirious is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Displaced
Posts: 16,189
I’m with Mr. Dibble and Mijin, AFAICT he straight up believes he’s right, that the truth as he learned remains the truth and challenges thereto are BS.

That he may profiteer on that there is an audience receptive to him because THEY too see the “truth” they grew up with being challenged, is another story.
  #35  
Old 02-10-2020, 09:19 AM
Snarky_Kong is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,533
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspidistra View Post
I would say you owe me ten minutes of my life back now, but in truth it's only 8 minutes thirty seconds, because that was all I could get through without either cutting and running or throwing a brick through the monitor.

The killer thing is, I actually agree that it's foolish to try and formalise the definitions of 'privilege' into a kind of laundry list of dimensions we talk about (race- sex- orientation- gender-ID- ... and then we stop right there) and to ignore others, particularly wealth- and region- which are kind of huge. And if that was his point, well, fine, but if your talk is 95% sneering and 5% point (and even the "point" bit, kind of strawmanning) I don't think you can say you're contributing to civilized conversation
He's straight up said that he's a troll because that gets him attention -> media appearances -> money.
  #36  
Old 02-10-2020, 10:30 AM
CurtC is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,885
I've heard him twice - once on the Unbelievable? podcast, where I thought he was just an idiot.

Then I heard him in an extended conversation with Matt Dillahunty, where I realized that he's a present-day Chauncey Gardiner (from the movie Being There). He says vague but stupid shit, which listeners then take and put their own interpretations on and think that what he said was profound.

And then the clincher was that he says Matt Dillahunty is NOT an atheist, because Matt acts morally and you can't be an atheist and act morally.

Yes, he's an idiot that other people fawn over.
  #37  
Old 02-10-2020, 11:55 AM
pigtwo is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 47
I got his 12 Rules book a couple of years ago before I had ever even heard of the guy. If you're looking for a laugh read the forward(or preface I don't remember which) to that book. The dude literally just lists out how many upvotes he got on various Quora posts! What's next? The acknowledgements will just be all the people that like a facebook photo he posted? I remember reading this and thinking I shouldn't judge him too quickly. Even though Quora is a pseudointellectual circlejerk. I thought maybe there could be some interesting things to think about past the weird circlejerking and hyper-verbose style. Well I finished chapter 1 and returned the book. Later I learned how much of a character JP is.

What's especially ironic is JP's big thing is the whole 'Clean your room' thing. IE get your own life in order before you start critiquing others/the world. Well maybe he should take his own advice.
  #38  
Old 02-10-2020, 12:13 PM
DrCube is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Caseyville, IL
Posts: 7,600
I know and respect smart people who are Jordan Peterson fans, but I've never actually heard him say anything I would consider intelligent. At best, he's a less new-agey version of Deepak Chopra or something, just saying feelgood platitudes for his particular audience of young "rational" white dudes. At worst he is a holocaust denier who opines that the Nazis didn't really do anything that bad. I don't understand what people I respect see in him, but I guess we hear what we want to hear and see what we want to see.
  #39  
Old 02-10-2020, 12:27 PM
Merneith is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: The Group W Bench
Posts: 6,908
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRDelirious View Post
I’m with Mr. Dibble and Mijin, AFAICT he straight up believes he’s right, that the truth as he learned remains the truth and challenges thereto are BS.

That he may profiteer on that there is an audience receptive to him because THEY too see the “truth” they grew up with being challenged, is another story.
We don't have to pick just one. This whole benzo interlude is evidence that Peterson a) is a grifter who b) eats his own dogfood.

Back up a minute - Peterson has been selling the idea for years that there is a simple cure for addiction: Just find something better to do. Yep, that's right. Take up a hobby and you'll never need drugs again.

Back up another minute - Peterson's daughter, Mikhaila gives health food advice (I suppose it goes without saying that she's not a dietitian or nutritionist). She & her dad maintain that Jordan tried some apple cider vinegar and had an adverse reaction which was so severe that it left him with autoimmune disorder.

Mikhaila and Jordan claim that this autoimmune disorder was ultimately treated by eating an all-meat "carnivore" diet. (It also goes without saying that the pair have been trying to profit off their nutritional insights. She calls it The Lion Diet - just beef, salt & water.)

Supposedly, Jordan started taking to Klonopin because of anxiety brought on by his cider-induced autoimmune disorder. According to Mikhalia's recent posts, the family realized that his benzo use had become an addiction after Peterson's wife was diagnosed with cancer last spring.

Now, back up a third moment. Benzodiazpines work by altering your brain chemistry. They flood your brain with chemicals which make your brain's built in GABA receptors calm down, providing waves of relaxation. But over time, your brain becomes reliant on the artificial drug. Which means that when your benzo wears off, your brain is left dry and there's no soothing chemicals to latch on to the receptors. The brain can start to panic so thoroughly that it causes hallucinations and seizures.

This is the exact same mechanism that's common in alcohol withdrawal. Both benzo and alchohol withdrawal can be fatal, as the brain can destroy itself with seizures. Both withdrawals need to be performed under medical supervision. Even so, it is said to be a long, painful process, even once the physical problem had ended.

As part of the medical process, it's sometimes necessary at first to administer low doses of quick acting benzos in order to taper down. This may seem counter-intuitive, providing more benzos to a guy who's trying to kick benzos, but the small doses of quick acting benzos (ativan, for example) can stop the seizure cycle and prevent brain damage. It also allows for a slower, more controlled, tapering. Benzo withdrawal is a well understood bit of medicine. It's available all over the place in the west. It's unpleasant and doesn't solve the psychological addiction, but it will keep seizures from scrabbling your brains.

And the main thing of course is that you're doing it all in a hospital under a doctor's care. You can't cold turkey this. There are no short, simple solutions - and Jordan's whole gimmick is the short & the simple.

So that's the backstory.

Which brings us to now when Mikhaila posted on YouTube about her father's travails. Here's the link -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTwEFa5NW2k

Also here's the link to the statement she provided the National Post, which is where Jordan Peterson publishes his columns:

https://nationalpost.com/news/the-do...hers-condition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikhaila Peterson, National Post

For the last six months he’s been in horrible, unbearable discomfort from this drug, made worse when trying to remove it because of the physical dependence. We took him to several hospitals in North America where he experienced multiple cases of misdiagnosis, and the addition of more medications to cover the response he was experiencing from the benzodiazepines. He nearly died several times.

In early January my dad, my husband, my daughter, and I flew to Russia. To make matters worse he was diagnosed with a fever and pneumonia in both lungs upon arrival. He was put into an induced coma for eight days and had the most horrific withdrawal I’ve ever read or heard about. He almost died from what the medical system did to him in the West. The doctors here aren’t influenced by the pharmaceutical companies, don’t believe in treating symptoms caused by medications, by adding in more medications and have the guts to medically detox someone from benzodiazepines.
The article goes on to say that Jordan Peterson was put in a medical coma for eight days and tried to cold-turkey his withdrawal symptoms. (Unlike those wimpy Western docs who tried to taper him off just like everyone else who kicks benzos.)

He has neurological damage from seizures endured while he was in the coma. (Because brave Russian Doctors have the courage not to treat side-effects!) It's affecting his speech and his walking. It might be temporary. He's taking anti-siezure medicine. All because he wanted to find a simple painless solution to his benzo addiction (which his daughter very much wants us to know was PHYSICAL not psychological.)

This is the most Jordan Peterson thing ever.


(ALso it wouldn't surprise me if he pops up in three months touting the benefits of his carnivority. Grifters gonna grift.)

Last edited by Merneith; 02-10-2020 at 12:30 PM.
  #40  
Old 02-10-2020, 12:47 PM
puddleglum's Avatar
puddleglum is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: a van down by the river
Posts: 6,873
He is so smart and articulate, we need more people with his wisdom and courage to engage the issues of the day.

Apparently, he has been on anti-anxiety medications for years and when his wife was diagnosed with cancer he started on stronger stuff to cope. This led to a benzo addiction and as has been shared, that is really an awful process. His daughter seems like a believer in a lot of woo so hopefully he can get the help he really needs.
  #41  
Old 02-10-2020, 12:49 PM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 36,967
Quote:
Originally Posted by puddleglum View Post
He is so smart and articulate, we need more people with his wisdom and courage to engage the issues of the day.
Do you think more people should have the wisdom and courage to switch to an ALL BEEF diet like JP?
  #42  
Old 02-10-2020, 01:25 PM
orcenio is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NCR
Posts: 2,350
If he does manage to recover enough to return to the self-help/money-begging circuit... his advice needs to be publicly scrutinized/audited. If he ever suggests his followers to forgo standard medical treatments (for addiction recovery) in favour of his cold-turkey/coma method, people could die. That's no joke.
  #43  
Old 02-10-2020, 01:31 PM
Vinyl Turnip is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 20,533
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merneith View Post
The article goes on to say that Jordan Peterson was put in a medical coma for eight days and tried to cold-turkey his withdrawal symptoms. (Unlike those wimpy Western docs who tried to taper him off just like everyone else who kicks benzos.)

He has neurological damage from seizures endured while he was in the coma. (Because brave Russian Doctors have the courage not to treat side-effects!)
"Welcome to Russia! We put you in coma now. No medicine, we use large mallet made of wood, like in Bugs Bunny cartoon! Nite-nite!" <BOP>
  #44  
Old 02-10-2020, 01:40 PM
QuickSilver is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 20,374
I've watched, and paid close attention, to 6 hours of debates and conversations between him and Sam Harris. The smart things JP says are trite. The nonsense he pontificates is profound.
__________________
St. QuickSilver: Patron Saint of Thermometers.
  #45  
Old 02-10-2020, 01:51 PM
Half Man Half Wit's Avatar
Half Man Half Wit is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,949
I stumbled across Maps of Meaning a while ago, and have made slow inroads with that. I think there's an intriguing idea there, somewhere buried under lots of barely-intelligible and not often terribly well substantiated interpretation of myth across different cultures, but I'm not exactly sure what it is.

Sometime after, I saw this 12 Rules thing pop up here and there, and lumped it in with The Secret and things like that, but never really made the connection until now. Well, it seems like he's found his audience...
  #46  
Old 02-10-2020, 03:43 PM
RickJay is offline
Charter Jays Fan
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Oakville, Canada
Posts: 42,269
Quote:
Originally Posted by orcenio View Post
If he does manage to recover enough to return to the self-help/money-begging circuit... his advice needs to be publicly scrutinized/audited. If he ever suggests his followers to forgo standard medical treatments (for addiction recovery) in favour of his cold-turkey/coma method, people could die. That's no joke.
Celebrities have been advocating health idiocy for a long time now, and sadly the suckers will keep swallowing it hook, line and sinker.
__________________
Providing useless posts since 1999!
  #47  
Old 02-10-2020, 04:43 PM
bobot's Avatar
bobot is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Chicago-ish
Posts: 9,632
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip View Post
"Welcome to Russia! We put you in coma now. No medicine, we use large mallet made of wood, like in Bugs Bunny cartoon! Nite-nite!" <BOP>
Came home after a crazy day at work. Read this. Laughed out loud. Thanks!
  #48  
Old 02-10-2020, 05:37 PM
sisu is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: oi, oi, oi
Posts: 2,358
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuickSilver View Post
The smart things JP says are trite. The nonsense he pontificates is profound.
See this is lazy criticism, I barely see any point specific criticism of him and his ideas.

Hey some of his thoughts I think are bit silly but on the whole he makes a lot of sense.
__________________
My opinions may or may not reflect the truth.........
  #49  
Old 02-10-2020, 06:16 PM
orcenio is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NCR
Posts: 2,350
2017 Maps of Meaning 08: Neuropsychology of Symbolic Representation
Quote:
I really do believe this although. It's very complicated to explain why I really believe that's a representation of DNA. So and that that representation that entwined double helix that is everywhere, you can see it in Australian Aboriginal art and I'm using the Australians as an example because they were isolated in Australia for like 50,000 years. There's the most archaic people that were ever discovered and they have clear representations of these double helix structures in their art.
Biblical Series IV: Adam and Eve: Self-Consciousness, Evil, and Death
Quote:
Audience Member: ...also explained that cultures around the world have these twin snakes
JBP: yeah they're everywhere man
AM: Yeah and so you mentioned that you believe this is a representation of DNA?
JBP: I wouldn't say I believe that I have my suspicions that that might be it. yeah because believe is too strong a word but those representations are everywhere and. Read this book. This is a good one...I think it's called the Cosmic Serpent...
JBP: ...I think people had intimations of Dna as the Cosmic Serpent forever...
AM: ...but I don't see how, we could perceive DNA as it is?
PB&J: Well, yes. We didn't objectively but I'm not so sure we didn't subjectively. But I mean its very strange that these double helixes exist in so many places and that they're often utilized as healing symbols...
Interpreting the depiction of two snakes entwining as an illusion to DNA is pretty crazy, JBP might not know that this is simply how snakes mate, but he should be aware he is talking out of his ass. His ideas are not the product of any sort of scholarly rigour or rational system. They are simply his personal "hot takes" on day-to-day stuff. No more informed then crazy uncle Joe, or radio jockey #47.

Last edited by orcenio; 02-10-2020 at 06:21 PM.
  #50  
Old 02-10-2020, 06:28 PM
nearwildheaven is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 13,572
Quote:
Originally Posted by pool View Post
The coma thing reminds me of something I only learned of recently. I'm sure most of you have heard of electroshock therapy.

But it was only recently I heard and read about Insulin shock therapy where depressives and especially schizophrenics were given overdoses of insulin in order to be put in a coma with a goal of helping them, quite fascinating actually.

There were positive results for some, not so much for others, mostly because of a lot of follow-up care but it's amazing how far we have come from a lot of pseudoscience.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin_shock_therapy
ECT is still used; insulin shock quickly went by the wayside.

About a decade ago, there was a lot of buzz about a treatment called "precipitated opiate withdrawal" that was initially believed to have a high success rate; in short, a person was put into a medically induced coma for several days and given various drugs to quickly get them off opiates, and just a quick Google search indicates that it too has largely gone the way of the dodo.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:21 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017