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  #51  
Old 02-10-2020, 07:44 PM
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...
Trumpers love liberal tears. They'd vote for anyone who could deliver that, regardless of race/gender/bloviating/tax dodging/philandering. Indeed, some even think a minority/woman would be the BEST to "stick it to the libs."
I await the black Republican presidential nominee. Not with held breath.
  #52  
Old 02-10-2020, 07:54 PM
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The one who wins the Primary, you dig? Come on Republicans, YOU CAN DO IT!
  #53  
Old 02-10-2020, 07:57 PM
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"Political correctness gone mad!" is such a weird phenomenon because people get so upset about it, and yet almost every time there is no truth to it. It's the moral panic of our time.
It's the most hypocritical moral panic of our time.

The president thinks that football players who kneel during the NA are hateful SOBs who should have their American citizenship revoked. He has convinced his supporters that the act of kneeling is a sign of disrespect--one that shits not only the NA and the flag, but also the military and law enforcement and baby Jesus. Mind you, he shits on these institutions all the time and his supporters just laugh. But if you're a black football player exercising your first amendment rights, you deserve to be punished.

The obsession over wokeness on the left can be tiresome sometimes, but at least it isn't horrifically insane.
  #54  
Old 02-10-2020, 08:23 PM
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I wonder who's looking down on me. Must be someone. I have an intuition.

Damn it. I got to go "own" somebody now.

I guess I'll go eat worms. And vote fascist.
  #55  
Old 02-10-2020, 09:33 PM
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And vote fascist.
Trump?

He favors communism:
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I have great respect for President Xi* and great respect for China, frankly . . .

States with a very powerful death penalty on drug dealers don’t have a drug problem. I don’t know that our country is ready for that. But if you look throughout the world, the countries with a powerful death penalty — death penalty — with a fair but quick trial, they have very little, if any, drug problem. That includes China.
I should mention that, as can be googled, China has a significant drug problem, but Trump's prevarication isn't my point here.

It's speculative that Trump admires avowed fascists (are there even any still around?). It's definite that he admires avowed communists like Xi and Kim. You might say that those are fascist-like communists, but, well, after the idealists are shot, this is what communism is. And Trump is soft on it.

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  #56  
Old 02-10-2020, 09:41 PM
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Trump is like Clint Eastwood in The Unforgiven. He's a murderous low life scum, but he's the only guy we have to stop liberals from destroying this country.

PS - This is an analogy, and in no way, would I advocate violence of any sort. I believe hearts and minds can be changed with respectful debate.
I'm terribly curious about what liberals want to do that will lead to your country's destruction.
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  #57  
Old 02-10-2020, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by LAZombie View Post
Trump is like Clint Eastwood in The Unforgiven. He's a murderous low life scum, but he's the only guy we have to stop liberals from destroying this country.

PS - This is an analogy, and in no way, would I advocate violence of any sort. I believe hearts and minds can be changed with respectful debate.
Lose the murderous lowlife scum and we’ll talk. We’ll even let you have Pence. I miss those religious old school Republicans that keep their underpants on in the shower.

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 02-10-2020 at 09:51 PM.
  #58  
Old 02-10-2020, 09:53 PM
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Trump?

He favors communism:


I should mention that, as can be googled, China has a significant drug problem, but Trump's prevarication isn't my point here.

It's speculative that Trump admires avowed fascists (are there even any still around?). It's definite that he admires avowed communists like Xi and Kim. You might say that those are fascist-like communists, but, well, after the idealists are shot, this is what communism is. And Trump is soft on it.

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Xoh please
  #59  
Old 02-10-2020, 10:11 PM
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Maybe this deserves another thread but here 'tis.

EDUCATED FOOLS: What Democratic leaders still misunderstand about the politics of social class
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This is a high school nation. Even now, after all the years of pumping up college education as the only way to survive, there’s still close to 70 percent of U.S. adults from age 25 and older—yes, living right now—who are without four-year college degrees. If a college education is the only way to survive in a global economy, then the party’s effective answer to anyone over 30 is: It’s too late for you. And of course, that message gets across.
Forget Trampkins as immoral morons. Educated, corporate Dems have shat upon them; they react appropriately. It didn't help that "liberal" mainstream media gave Tramp $billions$ of free airtime to spread his message. He grabbed many more eyeballs to be sold to advertisers; he has greatly enriched the media. Follow the money, eh?
  #60  
Old 02-11-2020, 07:48 AM
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Trump is like Clint Eastwood in The Unforgiven. He's a murderous low life scum, but he's the only guy we have to stop liberals from destroying this country.

PS - This is an analogy, and in no way, would I advocate violence of any sort. I believe hearts and minds can be changed with respectful debate.
It is nice to see one of you Trumpists finally admit that what you really want is fascism.
  #61  
Old 02-11-2020, 08:12 AM
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It is nice to see one of you Trumpists finally admit that what you really want is fascism.
It just shows that they can't tell fact from fiction. That they fall for his dog-and-pony show--his shtick. If they really believe that about a lazy, fat-ass fraudster, they'll swallow anything.
  #62  
Old 02-11-2020, 11:42 AM
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Marion Barry got reelected despite serving prison time for smoking crack.
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Oh please
I'm curious why the Barry example gets dismissed out of hand. I remember being stunned that someone with his documented history of inappropriate and criminal behavior could not only be considered a credible candidate but actually win -- even as "just" a big-city mayor. Trump's election despite his own despicable background was just as shocking, but of course the impact is broader and more devastating.

Both cases seem to involve an electorate supporting someone who's "one of them" over any consideration of competence or likely outcomes. I don't see how pointing out the short-sightedness of Barry's supporters in any way excuses the same deficiency in Trump's.
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  #63  
Old 02-11-2020, 12:23 PM
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I'm curious why the Barry example gets dismissed out of hand. I remember being stunned that someone with his documented history of inappropriate and criminal behavior could not only be considered a credible candidate but actually win -- even as "just" a big-city mayor. Trump's election despite his own despicable background was just as shocking, but of course the impact is broader and more devastating.

Both cases seem to involve an electorate supporting someone who's "one of them" over any consideration of competence or likely outcomes. I don't see how pointing out the short-sightedness of Barry's supporters in any way excuses the same deficiency in Trump's.
Context, proportionality, relevance, venue...?

Yeah who the fuck cares! Everything is the same!!
  #64  
Old 02-11-2020, 01:03 PM
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Context, proportionality, relevance, venue...?

Yeah who the fuck cares! Everything is the same!!
Drawing a parallel between a few thousand mostly African-American voters and 63 million mostly white Americans in no way excuses Trump voters.

The scope and impact of Barry's re-election was infinitesimal compared to Trump's 2016 election. The only thing that's "the same" is that in both cases, people elected a candidate whose record should have -- in any sane evaluation -- disqualified them from public office.

Just because there's a similar phenomenon at work doesn't give Trump supporters the right to say "See, you did it, too!" In fact, the disproportion only makes that argument lamer.
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  #65  
Old 02-11-2020, 01:09 PM
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Context, proportionality, relevance, venue...?
...Hand-waving?

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  #66  
Old 02-11-2020, 01:48 PM
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...Hand-waving?

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  #67  
Old 02-11-2020, 01:51 PM
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Drawing a parallel between a few thousand mostly African-American voters and 63 million mostly white Americans in no way excuses Trump voters.

The scope and impact of Barry's re-election was infinitesimal compared to Trump's 2016 election. The only thing that's "the same" is that in both cases, people elected a candidate whose record should have -- in any sane evaluation -- disqualified them from public office.

Just because there's a similar phenomenon at work doesn't give Trump supporters the right to say "See, you did it, too!" In fact, the disproportion only makes that argument lamer.
Maybe you aren't a good audience for this, or maybe you are, but when it comes to black people trying to get electoral influence in the US? They get a pass from me, certainly at the mayoral level, in making such a binary choice.
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Old 02-11-2020, 02:06 PM
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I’ve often speculated on the question asked in the OP. I can think of a few different reasons Trump supporters might not be moved by the scandals and gaffes and such:

1) They never hear about it from the media they consume.
2) They hear about it, but think it’s opposition lying/distorting
3) They hear about it, but don’t understand its complexities or why it’s important
4) They hear about it, but they like what he did
5) They hear about it, but just don’t care

I wonder how the possibilities play out proportionally among his voters.
  #69  
Old 02-11-2020, 03:09 PM
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Maybe you aren't a good audience for this, or maybe you are, but when it comes to black people trying to get electoral influence in the US? They get a pass from me, certainly at the mayoral level, in making such a binary choice.
I don't recall the particulars of the Barry re-election. What was binary about it? All I recall was thinking What the fuck is wrong with these people voting for such an obvious crook?

I never imagined I'd be saying the same thing about 63 million Americans who didn't even have 400 years of racial discrimination as motivation.
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  #70  
Old 02-11-2020, 03:43 PM
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I don't recall the particulars of the Barry re-election. What was binary about it? All I recall was thinking What the fuck is wrong with these people voting for such an obvious crook?

I never imagined I'd be saying the same thing about 63 million Americans who didn't even have 400 years of racial discrimination as motivation.
All elections are binary.
  #71  
Old 02-11-2020, 03:58 PM
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All elections are binary.
The DC mayoral election of 1994 had three black democrats vying for the win, Barry beat incumbent mayor Sharon Pratt Kelly, and councilman John Ray.
  #72  
Old 02-11-2020, 04:25 PM
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The DC mayoral election of 1994 had three black democrats vying for the win, Barry beat incumbent mayor Sharon Pratt Kelly, and councilman John Ray.
It depends on the state of mind of the electorate, the context again.

I'd need to dig deeper on any elections in which there are multiple african american candidates. I'm not black.
  #73  
Old 02-11-2020, 04:32 PM
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I’ve often speculated on the question asked in the OP. I can think of a few different reasons Trump supporters might not be moved by the scandals and gaffes and such:

1) They never hear about it from the media they consume.
2) They hear about it, but think it’s opposition lying/distorting
3) They hear about it, but don’t understand its complexities or why it’s important
4) They hear about it, but they like what he did
5) They hear about it, but just don’t care

I wonder how the possibilities play out proportionally among his voters.

Most likely, it's simply that their fear and loathing of the D's has risen to such an extreme level that virtually everything else is irrelevant. They have single-minded focus on getting Trump reelected and preventing a Democrat from capturing the presidency.

I mean, four years ago, Trumpers went with the article, "The Flight 93 Election." If you imagine yourselves to be the passengers trying to retake the controls from the hijackers, are you going to think, "I want to storm this cockpit, but the passenger who is helping me pound through the locked door is an adulterer with three mistresses and also cheated on his taxes?" Of course not. You're fighting for your political lives.
  #74  
Old 02-11-2020, 05:03 PM
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Some of them might be under the right circumstances, but don't expect it to happen over night. I'm someone who used to vote Republican. I know there are other posters who've said the same. For me, it was Iraq and the increasingly dirty rhetoric and politics coming from the right, rhetoric suggesting that people who opposed Bush hated the troops and were un-American. I'm guessing there are other Republicans that have their tipping point as well

My tipping point was a little later than yours, but still pre-Trump. It was the rise of the Tea Party and their myriad idiocies that made me realize that the GOP was no longer the party I'd voted for since 1990, and had gone off the benighted, ignorant hillbilly deep-end.

The advent of Trump was just confirmation that they've collectively lost their minds, and the real nail in the coffin was when Trump harassed the family of Captain Humayun Khan about their Islamic faith and their statements rebuking him for his proposed treatment of Muslims. That marked him as an asshole with no boundaries, and when they refused to condemn him or extract an apology, it cemented my thinking of the rest of his party as some motley combination of ignorant fools and assholes.
  #75  
Old 02-11-2020, 05:08 PM
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Most likely, it's simply that their fear and loathing of the D's has risen to such an extreme level that virtually everything else is irrelevant. They have single-minded focus on getting Trump reelected and preventing a Democrat from capturing the presidency.

I mean, four years ago, Trumpers went with the article, "The Flight 93 Election." If you imagine yourselves to be the passengers trying to retake the controls from the hijackers, are you going to think, "I want to storm this cockpit, but the passenger who is helping me pound through the locked door is an adulterer with three mistresses and also cheated on his taxes?" Of course not. You're fighting for your political lives.
Not exactly. They want to live a life with zero consequences. Just like Trump. He is their hero, not someone to scorn.
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Old 02-11-2020, 05:50 PM
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I'm terribly curious about what liberals want to do that will lead to your country's destruction.
Give healthcare to the undeserving?

I had a conversation with a dude on here 5 years ago. He was convinced that Canada had only about 2 -3 more years left as a viable country, due to our foolish idea of universal single-payer healthcare; an idea that was clearly doomed to failure and would destroy Canada.

<looks around> Hasn't happened yet.
  #77  
Old 02-11-2020, 07:44 PM
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As long as Trump keeps enraging people who his fans love to see enraged, they'll keep supporting him.
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And if Democrats had a pugilist like this mocking Republicans and laughing at their rules and norms, you love that person too.
No, no I wouldn't.

Perhaps this is what I'm missing. I don't want to see people enraged. That isn't a driving force for me - I've absolutely no interest in seeing conservatives angered.

What I want is people fed, and housed, and safe, and physically (and mentally and emotionally) well, and participants in the society, and thriving. Enraged doesn't do me (or the country, or them) any good.
Why would I want that?

What leads a person to want that? That seems psychologically unhealthy.
  #78  
Old 02-12-2020, 06:49 AM
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This. My own mom admitted that Trump could murder her grandson, BBQ him on a spit on front of her and she’d still vote for him.
While she rants about the usual right wing stuff: welfare queens, food stamps cheaters, illegals, et al. I think her two biggest issues are:

1. Columbus Day ‘We’ve gotten too damn politically correct !!’
2. Comfort animals on planes. Any news story about someone bringing an unusual animal on a plane as a comfort animal has her foaming at the mouth for hours.

So, yes owning the libs is far more important than his policies or character.
I think you have just given me an idea. If I ever get back to the USA I will get a comfort animal that really gets the right people foaming at the mouth for hours. Owning the other side sounds like a lovely amateur sport. Perhaps a skunk? I might dye the white strips pink. A rainbow coloured unicorn might be even better, if I can find one.
Or I might just draw a short comic about it. Would be safer. For me.
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  #79  
Old 02-12-2020, 06:19 PM
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I’ve often speculated on the question asked in the OP. I can think of a few different reasons Trump supporters might not be moved by the scandals and gaffes and such:
This is an identity. You can't expect people to give it up because of a leadership defect.

Most supporters, in China, of the Chinese Communist Party, seem to have disliked it when the term limit, for the General Secretary, was removed in 2018. It was an embarrassment. But extremely few thought that now he's gone too far. They are not becoming, even in private discussions with family and trusted friends, democracy supporters (something that isn't really dangerous as I describe it, just as virtually no one there is jailed for having a VPN). Maybe if a loved one dies of the new disease, they will change. It takes something on that order to upset an identity.

Republicans have not yet swallowed anything as bad as what the Chinese communists, and hundreds of millions of middle-ground Chinese regime supporters, have. I wouldn't insult them, so why should I expect better of Republicans here?

I'm about as moderate as you can be and still be a committed member of the Democratic Party. I could list a whole bunch of things I don't like about Bernie Sanders. But it's hard for me to imagine any circumstance where I wouldn't vote for Bernie over Trump. If I hear that Bernie shot someone, my first thought is going to be -- must have been self-defence. So I can't see myself as so much more flexible than people on the other side.
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Old 02-12-2020, 06:49 PM
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I see you're trying to be fair about it, but I don't think it's the same in most cases.

I can confidently say I'd vote for any of the democratic candidates over trump, but that's not because of partisanship -- I'm actually British and have voted for both the tories and labour in previous elections, nothing weds me to the democrats. It's because trump has done so, so many things which should individually be disqualifying for high office that it strains credulity to imagine any of the dem candidates doing anything worse in the time available. Plus I agree with them on policy.

What's the difference?

Well, for example, I most support Bernie Sanders right now. But if someone were to say Have you heard the terrible thing Bernie is proposing, I would listen. If it really was something abhorrent, it would affect my level of support and I might switch to another candidate.

Many trump supporters aren't like this IME. They decide if a story is true or false on the basis of whether it's positive or negative about trump. There can't be anything negative about him, by definition.

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Old 02-13-2020, 08:34 PM
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With all due respect, I find the posing of a question like this, at this point in time, to be quite troubling, and more than a little frightening, and I believe that the mindset where many Americans not of the GOP persuasion still continue to see things from a perspective based on the way things were, say around twenty years ago, to be a huge contributing factor to the mess we’re in now.

It seems to me that if you can ask a question like that, it’s unlikely that you’ve had much experience dealing personally with some of 'those' people, and if and when you do, it shouldn’t take you too long to realise the extent of their ideological fervor, after getting an ear full of how quickly and completely they are are able to dismiss and demean any views opposed to their own.
I (unfortunately) know more than a few (including family), and while most of them could have previously been considered ‘moderate’ and reasonably pragmatic GOPers, they’ve now been reduced to a thoroughly ‘us and them’ mentality (or worse); I even know one (previously) intelligent and accomplished physician - a man of science - who stated, matter of factly and with a straight face, that the vast majority of climate scientists now believe climate change to be a hoax. This alone should be enough to open up eyes to the seductive and ultimately brainwashing effects of any powerful ideological movement such as the one we’re dealing with now, and it’s past becoming obvious how far the vast majority of GOPers (most especially the fanatics that make up a large - and quickly growing - portion of the GOP ‘base’), have moved beyond caring a whit about any standards of behavior, double or otherwise, and will justify or at least tolerate almost anything as simply being a means to an end.

Nothing lasts forever; the founding fathers had a clear enough idea of how vulnerable our system might be, and given everything that’s led to this, it’s not hard to see how vulnerable our system has become, to being overwhelmed by a movement so alike those occurring in early 20th century Germany or Italy.
So, I’m hoping and praying that enough of us, before November, get a bit more real, and dump some of the naivety; one might a) become a bit more aware of what led to all this; b) study some 20th century European history; c) look up fascism in the dictionary or encyclopaedia, and try to find any differences between what you read and what’s happening now- and also note how well those systems have worked, up until they time they became destructive... then ask yourself what you think this country’s prospects really are for the kind of cyclical changes or self-corrections our system has allowed us in the past.
Also, try finding any recent example of a movement like the one we’re witnessing that acquired so much power, who would stop at anything in order to hold on to it- and you might move away from wondering how GOPers can behave then way they do, and realise that the best - and maybe only - chance we have, at least for now, is to vote them out, rigged as the system may be. After that, if we’re lucky enough to get the chance, we might, in an effort to avoid repeating past mistakes, try listening to the legitimate beliefs that some of those people actually did hold, before they got sucked down into the deep end.

Thank you for your kind attention to this editorial/rant!
  #82  
Old 02-13-2020, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by REssence View Post
With all due respect, I find the posing of a question like this, at this point in time, to be quite troubling, and more than a little frightening, and I believe that the mindset where many Americans not of the GOP persuasion still continue to see things from a perspective based on the way things were, say around twenty years ago, to be a huge contributing factor to the mess we’re in now.

It seems to me that if you can ask a question like that, it’s unlikely that you’ve had much experience dealing personally with some of 'those' people, and if and when you do, it shouldn’t take you too long to realise the extent of their ideological fervor, after getting an ear full of how quickly and completely they are are able to dismiss and demean any views opposed to their own.
I (unfortunately) know more than a few (including family), and while most of them could have previously been considered ‘moderate’ and reasonably pragmatic GOPers, they’ve now been reduced to a thoroughly ‘us and them’ mentality (or worse); I even know one (previously) intelligent and accomplished physician - a man of science - who stated, matter of factly and with a straight face, that the vast majority of climate scientists now believe climate change to be a hoax. This alone should be enough to open up eyes to the seductive and ultimately brainwashing effects of any powerful ideological movement such as the one we’re dealing with now, and it’s past becoming obvious how far the vast majority of GOPers (most especially the fanatics that make up a large - and quickly growing - portion of the GOP ‘base’), have moved beyond caring a whit about any standards of behavior, double or otherwise, and will justify or at least tolerate almost anything as simply being a means to an end.

Nothing lasts forever; the founding fathers had a clear enough idea of how vulnerable our system might be, and given everything that’s led to this, it’s not hard to see how vulnerable our system has become, to being overwhelmed by a movement so alike those occurring in early 20th century Germany or Italy.
So, I’m hoping and praying that enough of us, before November, get a bit more real, and dump some of the naivety; one might a) become a bit more aware of what led to all this; b) study some 20th century European history; c) look up fascism in the dictionary or encyclopaedia, and try to find any differences between what you read and what’s happening now- and also note how well those systems have worked, up until they time they became destructive... then ask yourself what you think this country’s prospects really are for the kind of cyclical changes or self-corrections our system has allowed us in the past.
Also, try finding any recent example of a movement like the one we’re witnessing that acquired so much power, who would stop at anything in order to hold on to it- and you might move away from wondering how GOPers can behave then way they do, and realise that the best - and maybe only - chance we have, at least for now, is to vote them out, rigged as the system may be. After that, if we’re lucky enough to get the chance, we might, in an effort to avoid repeating past mistakes, try listening to the legitimate beliefs that some of those people actually did hold, before they got sucked down into the deep end.

Thank you for your kind attention to this editorial/rant!
You can't vote them out if they are rigging the game. Do you have any other plan?
  #83  
Old 02-14-2020, 12:07 AM
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Yeah- leave! Personally, I've no stomach for living in one-party state- I've experienced one (Poland early '80's), and it's really heartbreaking.
But maybe it's not so thoroughly rigged here yet where an actual election victory could be disregarded(?) Anyway, we do have, at least, a 'puncher's chance.'
  #84  
Old 02-14-2020, 08:07 PM
PhillyGuy is offline
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Originally Posted by drad dog View Post
Do you have any other plan?
Quote:
The simplest way to activate someone’s identity is to threaten it, to tell them they don’t deserve what they have, to make them consider that it might be taken away. The experience of losing status—and being told your loss of status is part of society’s march to justice—is itself radicalizing.

There’s a quote I occasionally see ricochet around social media. “When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.” There’s truth to this line, but it cuts both ways. To the extent that it’s true that a loss of privilege feels like oppression, that feeling needs to be taken seriously, both because it’s real, and because, left to fester, it can be weaponized by demagogues and reactionaries.

In her book Talking to Strangers, Harvard political theorist Danielle Allen writes that “the hard truth of democracy is that some citizens are always giving things up for others.” These sacrifices, she argues, are subjective, but they need to be treated as significant, and met with a spirit of “political friendship.” In a conversation I had with her for my podcast, Allen expanded on the point. We need “to give each other space to negotiate around experiences of loss,” she said.
from Why We're Polarized by Ezra Klein

Are there vast numbers of Trump-ambivalent voters who might stay home if such advice were followed? No. But the election is going to be close.

Last edited by PhillyGuy; 02-14-2020 at 08:08 PM.
  #85  
Old 02-14-2020, 08:22 PM
River Hippie's Avatar
River Hippie is offline
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Originally Posted by Leaper View Post
I’ve often speculated on the question asked in the OP. I can think of a few different reasons Trump supporters might not be moved by the scandals and gaffes and such:

1) They never hear about it from the media they consume.
2) They hear about it, but think it’s opposition lying/distorting
3) They hear about it, but don’t understand its complexities or why it’s important
4) They hear about it, but they like what he did
5) They hear about it, but just don’t care

I wonder how the possibilities play out proportionally among his voters.
It's 5.
  #86  
Old 02-15-2020, 02:10 AM
FlikTheBlue is offline
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Originally Posted by Ají de Gallina View Post
What's the point of these "Why do trumpers/conservatives do X?" if almost every answer is by an opponent saying "cuz dey dumb"? Is the self-congratulatory circle that entertaining? How do you fight ignorance if you're so sure about the answer that you don't need to hear it?
In my case, it’s because I come to a different conclusion than “cuz dey dumb.” The longer I’ve thought about it, I think the defining characteristic of today’s conservative movement in the US is not ignorance, but selfishness.

Last edited by FlikTheBlue; 02-15-2020 at 02:11 AM.
  #87  
Old 02-15-2020, 01:20 PM
drad dog is offline
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So we know it's social media right?

The same thing we are doing right now.

When they do it, they get less tethered to any traditional meanings for their prefernces that we might pin down or analyze.

They are just winging democracy, and flinging it, and not being grown ups. I'm sorry if that's pejorative but it's true.
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