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Old 08-13-2018, 10:34 AM
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Why did the FBI lie about Carter Page on the FISA warrent?


The FBI in their FISA warrent asserts that Carter Page is "a U.S. person, and an agent of a foreign power...". This is a lie because in 2013 Carter Page assisted the FBI in their case against a Russian spy ring resulting in the conviction of Evgeny Buryakov. In 2016 Carter Page was still assisting the FBI in this case which resulted in a plea deal. The FBI knew that Carter Page wasn't an agent of a foreign power.

In the heavily redacted document I doubt that the FBI explained how the once cooperative Carter Page changed into an agent of a foreign power in a matter of months.

FISA Warrent
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Old 08-13-2018, 11:28 AM
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Ongoing Discussion already in progress.
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Old 08-13-2018, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by EasyPhil View Post
The FBI in their FISA warrent asserts that Carter Page is "a U.S. person, and an agent of a foreign power...". This is a lie because in 2013 Carter Page assisted the FBI in their case against a Russian spy ring resulting in the conviction of Evgeny Buryakov. In 2016 Carter Page was still assisting the FBI in this case which resulted in a plea deal. The FBI knew that Carter Page wasn't an agent of a foreign power.

In the heavily redacted document I doubt that the FBI explained how the once cooperative Carter Page changed into an agent of a foreign power in a matter of months.

FISA Warrent
Have you looked at page 13 of your cite?
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Old 08-13-2018, 12:27 PM
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Have you looked at page 13 of your cite?
And your take on that is what?
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Old 08-13-2018, 01:00 PM
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What do you think it says? The unredacted part right at the top, that is. Along with a similar unredacted sentence on page 12.

Do those words have anything to do with Page talking to the FBI, do you suppose?
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Old 08-13-2018, 02:10 PM
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Cite for where it is/was required that the FBI disclose prior working with Page and how its relevant to this specific warrant application?

Cite that they 'lied' about any prior workings with Page? Not disclosing it is not a 'lie'.

Last edited by simster; 08-13-2018 at 02:11 PM.
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Old 08-13-2018, 02:26 PM
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In what specific way was the assistance, if any, given in the Evgeny Buryakov matter inconsistent with being agent of a foreign power?
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Old 08-13-2018, 11:46 PM
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Cite for where it is/was required that the FBI disclose prior working with Page and how its relevant to this specific warrant application?

Cite that they 'lied' about any prior workings with Page? Not disclosing it is not a 'lie'.
The point is that they know he's not "an agent of a foreign government" because he has assisted the FBI in convicting an individual that was acting as "an agent of a foreign government".

Not disclosing is a lie of omission.
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Old 08-13-2018, 11:47 PM
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In what specific way was the assistance, if any, given in the Evgeny Buryakov matter inconsistent with being agent of a foreign power?
You'll have to ask the FBI about that.
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Old 08-13-2018, 11:53 PM
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The point is that they know he's not "an agent of a foreign government" because he has assisted the FBI in convicting an individual that was acting as "an agent of a foreign government".
Why can’t “an agent of a foreign government” assist the FBI in convicting an individual that was acting as “an agent of a foreign government”? What do you think happens if he tries? Does his throat close up after he starts key a sentence, but before he finishes it? Does mighty Zeus smite him with a thunderbolt? What?
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Old 08-14-2018, 12:10 AM
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The point is that they know he's not "an agent of a foreign government"
...they don't know this.

They actually strongly suspect that he is. Which is why they are investigating him.

Quote:
because he has assisted the FBI in convicting an individual that was acting as "an agent of a foreign government".
Kim Philby was awarded the Order of the British Empire. As a high-ranking member of British Intelligence he was involved in many cases of investigating people who were acting as agents of a foreign government.

He also happened to be working as an agent for a foreign government.

It is entirely possible to both help convict someone acting as an agent for a foreign government and be an agent for a foreign government and its bizarre that anyone could think otherwise.
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Old 08-14-2018, 01:32 AM
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...they don't know this.

They actually strongly suspect that he is. Which is why they are investigating him.
No they don't because they know better but they also know they can use him as a doorway into the Trump campaign which is the whole point of the exercise.


Quote:
Kim Philby was awarded the Order of the British Empire. As a high-ranking member of British Intelligence he was involved in many cases of investigating people who were acting as agents of a foreign government.

He also happened to be working as an agent for a foreign government.

It is entirely possible to both help convict someone acting as an agent for a foreign government and be an agent for a foreign government and its bizarre that anyone could think otherwise.
Exceptions are not the rule. Carter Page is still living in the USA, hasn't been charged and will not be charged.
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Old 08-14-2018, 02:35 AM
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Exceptions are not the rule because, if they were, they wouldn't be exceptions.

But exceptions do exist. Why should Carter Page not be an exception?
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Old 08-14-2018, 02:54 AM
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No they don't
...what do you mean "no they don't?" They don't what?

Quote:
because they know better
They know better than whom or what?

Quote:
but they also know they can use him as a doorway into the Trump campaign which is the whole point of the exercise.
Or they could be doing exactly what they say they are doing. Investigating Page.

Why should we believe you over the FBI?

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Exceptions are not the rule.
"Exceptions are not the rule" is not an actual rule.

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Carter Page is still living in the USA,
Well done! Thanks for stating the obvious.

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hasn't been charged and will not be charged.
Whether or not he will or won't be charged has nothing at all to do with your OP.
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Old 08-14-2018, 03:37 AM
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Not disclosing is a lie of omission.
Then what’s on pages 12 and 13 of the warrant application? It can’t be an omission if it is actually in the application.

I don’t think you have actually read your cites.
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Old 08-14-2018, 05:23 AM
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The point is that they know he's not "an agent of a foreign government" because he has assisted the FBI in convicting an individual that was acting as "an agent of a foreign government".
Except that quite literally does not follow. Nothing about helping the FBI convict a foreign agent interferes with the possibility of being a foreign agent. It's literally a non-sequitur, because we already know how Page has, in the past, acted as a foreign agent:

"On CNN the former foreign policy adviser and energy consultant declined to answer four times whether he had relationships with Russian officials and declined to elaborate on an academic letter he wrote in 2013, in which he described himself as an “informal adviser” to the Kremlin."

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...etap-documents
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Old 08-14-2018, 05:34 AM
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We know Carter Page isn't acting as a "foreign agent" and so does the FBI. If he were he would have been arrested.
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Old 08-14-2018, 05:38 AM
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Then what’s on pages 12 and 13 of the warrant application? It can’t be an omission if it is actually in the application.

I don’t think you have actually read your cites.
You need to see the redacted part which could change the meaning of what isn't redacted.
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Old 08-14-2018, 05:44 AM
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We know Carter Page isn't acting as a "foreign agent" and so does the FBI. If he were he would have been arrested.
Well, that's where the argument ends. I think everything to be said on the subject has been said. Anyone disagree with me?
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Old 08-14-2018, 05:50 AM
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From the FISA application...

Quote:
"The target of this application is Carter W. Page, a U.S. person, and an agent of a foreign power..."
Notice they don't say "think", "believe", "suspected". Where's the evidence he's "an agent of a foreign power"?
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Old 08-14-2018, 05:52 AM
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From the FISA application...



Notice they don't say "think", "believe", "suspected". Where's the evidence he's "an agent of a foreign power"?
Five posts up?
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Old 08-14-2018, 05:54 AM
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There is no evidence.
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Old 08-14-2018, 06:10 AM
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There is no evidence.
There is also no spoon.
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Old 08-14-2018, 06:15 AM
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There is also no spoon.
Try the Red Pill...
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Old 08-14-2018, 06:17 AM
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There is no evidence.
There is no possible way you can know this. Are you claiming to have access to all evidence they collected?
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Old 08-14-2018, 06:18 AM
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Try the Red Pill...
What, you mean the one that makes me a shitty, bitter, hateful misogynistic prick who happens to be totally wrong about everything all the time?
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Old 08-14-2018, 06:20 AM
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There is no possible way you can know this. Are you claiming to have access to all evidence they collected?
If there were, they could easily charge Page with failing to register as a foreign agent. Didn't happen and won't happen.

I haven't seen any evidence, have you?
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Old 08-14-2018, 06:22 AM
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What, you mean the one that makes me a shitty, bitter, hateful misogynistic prick who happens to be totally wrong about everything all the time?
You don't need a pill for that.
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Old 08-14-2018, 06:27 AM
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If there were, they could easily charge Page with failing to register as a foreign agent. Didn't happen and won't happen.

I haven't seen any evidence, have you?
I am neither the prosecution nor the defense.
Are you?
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Old 08-14-2018, 07:52 AM
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What, you mean the one that makes me a shitty, bitter, hateful misogynistic prick who happens to be totally wrong about everything all the time?
That’ll earn you a warning, BPC. Control yourself.
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Old 08-14-2018, 08:01 AM
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We know Carter Page isn't acting as a "foreign agent" and so does the FBI. If he were he would have been arrested.
Quote:
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If there were, they could easily charge Page with failing to register as a foreign agent. Didn't happen and won't happen.
It won't happen because Trump has fired everyone in the FBI who would have the cajones to arrest a someone from Trump's inner circle. Page ought to answer for what he's done, but it won't happen under Trump.


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You need to see the redacted part which could change the meaning of what isn't redacted.
First you said that the FBI "omitted" details about Page's cooperation with the Russian spies he was being recruited by. The unredacted portions of pages 12 and 13 clearly reference that Page was talking to the FBI. Ergo, there was no omission.

Then you said that nobody can know what's in the redacted parts. And yet, you claim to know what is in the redacted parts; that the FBI isn't being truthful.

You need to find one mindless pro-Trump narrative and stick with it. I suggest the one you've peddled that Page is a counterintelligence mastermind who is playing 28 dimensional chess. That one gets a big laugh at parties.
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Old 08-14-2018, 09:31 AM
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So, maybe he's actually guilty but he still walks, because who cares? He is no threat to national security, he is too dumb to make his own oatmeal. I don't care so much about punishing threats to our security as much as neutralizing them. And he has clearly been neutered, surprised he's not wearing one of those cones to keep him from licking his incised nutsack.
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Old 08-14-2018, 10:37 AM
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You don't need a pill for that.
And this one earns a warning, too.

Sorry for the delay, I was in a doctor's appointment.
  #34  
Old 08-14-2018, 11:26 AM
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Not disclosing is a lie of omission.
Ok, I'm going to jump in here, because I've seen this argument advanced before, and it is fundamentally flawed. I speak as a criminal defense lawyer who reads, and challenges, search warrants as a regular part of my job (although, full disclosure: this redacted FISA warrant is the only FISA warrant I've read).

When requesting a search warrant, law enforcement does NOT have to include all details about a source. They do NOT have to provide the court the pros and cons of their case.

Law enforcement has to provide the details necessary to show that they believe that evidence of a crime, or ongoing criminal activity, is present at a particular place. In presenting this to a court, they are 1) going before a friendly tribunal, who's instinct is to help them, 2) given, as a matter of law, the benefit of the doubt, and 3) not subject to any rebuttal.

In other words, the search warrant process is designed to grant search warrants.

And, in effecting that plan, police regularly rely on crooks and ne'er-do-wells for information; they don't then have to itemize all of the bad things the person has done, or speculate on why they have reason to lie. Instead, police just have to give a reason why this person is telling the truth - it can be that they are speaking from 1st hand knowledge (which they plausibly obtained). It can also simply be that they have provided reliable information in the past.

But that's it; I regularly argue (and typically lose) that police need to do more than just take the word of a person who is, himself, facing legal jeopardy. Or, I regularly complain that the police didn't disclose exculpatory evidence (real story: Cop is trying to bust a house for growing pot, but everytime he walks by, he doesn't smell anything. So, he has his fellow cop walk by, and then puts in the warrant application that fellow officer confirmed the anonymous tip with a smell).

Unless the police included information that they knew to be false, or was misleading (and I think that failing to disclose his failure to smell anything make's the cops pot warrant misleading, but it's up on appeal right now), then none of it matters. And saying that Carter Page was a foreign agent is not misleading - the whole reason he ended up helping the FBI in the earlier sting was because he was first overheard on wire taps trying to conduct business with Russians.

That's because the whole point of this process is to further a police investigation, so the courts err on the side of law enforcement. Do you have articulable facts? If they come from rats, do you have any reason to believe these rats? If it comes from anonymous sources, do you have any independent corroboration (even of seemingly mundane details) that can corroborate the story?

If so, then they get to search. A challenge to the search can always come later, but quibbling about some minor detail like whether Carter Page was happy to cooperate with the FBI or a reluctant resource, (especially when we don't even see the full unredacted version) would get you shut down by a judge within minutes.

Oh, and another thing: If you read the FISA warrant link, you'll see that it appears to just repeat over and over. That's because the warrant wasn't open-ended. It had to be renewed. In renewing the application, the warrant always starts with the initial predicate request; but, more importantly, it must indicate what has since been found during the search. It's only if the search is producing useful information that it gets renewed. So, every time you see that the warrant is repeating itself, know that the warrant is being re-applied for, but new (and redacted) details are being added to the investigation. If nothing was coming up, the court wouldn't re-authorize the search.
  #35  
Old 08-14-2018, 12:28 PM
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We know Carter Page isn't acting as a "foreign agent" and so does the FBI. If he were he would have been arrested.
I guess this means Hillary Clinton is innocent of any and all wrongdoing also, right? After all, if she had done anything she would have been arrested, right?
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Old 08-14-2018, 12:47 PM
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Where's the evidence he's "an agent of a foreign power"?
The 400+ page FISA application lays out the evidence in excruciating detail. You must be aware of this document since you linked to it earlier.

However, let's focus on one piece of evidence that is publicly available. Carter Page claimed that Carter Page was an agent of a foreign power. There's a ton of other evidence that corroborates that statement, but I'm curious how you hand wave that one away.
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Old 08-14-2018, 12:53 PM
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The point is that they know he's not "an agent of a foreign government" because he has assisted the FBI in convicting an individual that was acting as "an agent of a foreign government".
Is this an immutable law of nature? Something you just made up? Part of the agent of a foreign government code? I hear that's really more of just a guideline.

You haven't even established that he did assist the FBI much less shown what form the assistance took. That's kind of super relevant.
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Old 08-14-2018, 02:07 PM
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The 400+ page FISA application lays out the evidence in excruciating detail. You must be aware of this document since you linked to it earlier.

However, let's focus on one piece of evidence that is publicly available. Carter Page claimed that Carter Page was an agent of a foreign power. There's a ton of other evidence that corroborates that statement, but I'm curious how you hand wave that one away.
Didn't you read post 22?
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Old 08-14-2018, 07:36 PM
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I thought if you asked somebody if they were a foreign agent, they had to tell the truth.
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Old 04-19-2019, 10:18 AM
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From the Mueller Report:

Quote:
...Russian intelligence officials had formed relationships with Page in 2008 and 2013 and Russian officials may have focused on Page in 2016 because of his affiliation with the Campaign. However, the investigation did not establish that Page coordinated with the Russian government in it efforts to interfere with the 2016 presidential election.
I ask again, why did the FBI lie about Carter Page on the FISA warrant?
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  #41  
Old 04-19-2019, 10:55 AM
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From the Mueller Report:



I ask again, why did the FBI lie about Carter Page on the FISA warrant?
They didn't "lie"; they suspected that, in the context of the Trump campaign, he was operating as an agent of foreign power. The report said it did not establish the connection, but I don't read that to mean that definitively rules it out either. Even if it did rule it out, the worst you could say is that the FBI had a hunch that turned out to be wrong. It happens. It's not a "lie."
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Old 04-19-2019, 11:18 AM
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They didn't "lie"; they suspected that, in the context of the Trump campaign, he was operating as an agent of foreign power. The report said it did not establish the connection, but I don't read that to mean that definitively rules it out either. Even if it did rule it out, the worst you could say is that the FBI had a hunch that turned out to be wrong. It happens. It's not a "lie."
From the FISA linked to in the first post:

Quote:
The target of this application is Carter W. Page, a U.S. person, and an agent of a foreign power.
It didn't say suspected, possibly, etc.
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Old 04-19-2019, 11:51 AM
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So, Carter Page was an agent of a foreign power all along? I knew there was something fishy about that guy!
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  #44  
Old 04-19-2019, 11:57 AM
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From the FISA linked to in the first post:



It didn't say suspected, possibly, etc.
It's implied - it doesn't need to be said. If they lied about something factual, that would be one thing. If the FBI had said Page had conversations with Russians when in fact he never even spoke to a Russian, that would be a lie. However, what you posted doesn't indicate that the FBI made up false facts. What you posted suggests that they observed Page's behavior and made judgments about the implications. That is not lying; that's a conclusion that turned out later to be lacking material evidence. Like I said, it happens.
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Old 04-19-2019, 12:00 PM
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Those two statements aren't even contradictory.
Quote:
The target of this application is Carter W. Page, a U.S. person, and an agent of a foreign power.
Quote:
However, the investigation did not establish that Page coordinated with the Russian government in it efforts to interfere with the 2016 presidential election.
These are not mutually exclusive statements. The most likely explanation is that Page was known to be an agent of a foreign power in some activities and, because of his position in the election campaign, the FBI wanted to see if we was acting as a foreign agent there as well. Seems like a pretty good use of the FBI's time.
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Old 04-19-2019, 12:04 PM
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Those two statements aren't even contradictory.


These are not mutually exclusive statements. The most likely explanation is that Page was known to be an agent of a foreign power in some activities and, because of his position in the election campaign, the FBI wanted to see if we was acting as a foreign agent there as well. Seems like a pretty good use of the FBI's time.
You need evidence for a FISA on a US citizen, the Mueller Report clearly states there was no such evidence.
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Old 04-19-2019, 12:32 PM
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The application (redacted) is easily available online and discusses the evidence they had. The FBI had evidence that Page had engaged in "clandestine intelligence activities ... for or on behalf of such foreign power" (page 4). They also had evidence that Russia had tried to interfere with the US election (page 5) and that Russia had made efforts to recruit Page. They filed the surveillance application in order to see if there was any fire behind the smoke.
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Old 04-19-2019, 12:59 PM
elucidator is offline
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You need evidence to convict someone of being a conscious, willing agent of a foreign power. Like Manafort. But if a suspicion arises, it needs to be checked out.

The FISA warrant process is explicit, there must be some grounds for suspicion. The FISA judge found that such grounds existed, hence the investigation. He was not required to rule on guilt or innocence, just to determine if enough smoke were present to investigate a possible fire.

As it turns out, it appears that Mr Page was little more than a bit-player, of no great importance. He had nothing to sell.

What premise are you trying to support? That if the FISA warrants for Mr Page were not entirely correct, then the whole investigation must be discounted? That any evidence uncovered must be ignored?
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Old 04-19-2019, 01:04 PM
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Also from the Carter Page FISA:

Quote:
the FBI believes that the Russian Government's errorts are being coordinated with Page and perhaps other individuals associate with Candidate #1's campaign
Why wasn't Mueller able to find the evidence that the FBI used to make this claim in the FISA warrant?
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Old 04-19-2019, 01:05 PM
EasyPhil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elucidator View Post
You need evidence to convict someone of being a conscious, willing agent of a foreign power. Like Manafort. But if a suspicion arises, it needs to be checked out.

The FISA warrant process is explicit, there must be some grounds for suspicion. The FISA judge found that such grounds existed, hence the investigation. He was not required to rule on guilt or innocence, just to determine if enough smoke were present to investigate a possible fire.

As it turns out, it appears that Mr Page was little more than a bit-player, of no great importance. He had nothing to sell.

What premise are you trying to support? That if the FISA warrants for Mr Page were not entirely correct, then the whole investigation must be discounted? That any evidence uncovered must be ignored?
The Mueller Report clearly states there was no such evidence.
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