Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #101  
Old 02-12-2019, 10:30 AM
bump bump is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 16,779
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grestarian View Post
I submit to you all that the modern laws and sentencing are rooted in ancient laws and sentencing which are tied to the values of patriarchal societies and those modern laws still have yet to be modernized.
Bingo! Dead on.

I look at it this way- most of the arguing that it's different somehow for a teenage girl/adult man versus a teenage boy/adult woman seem to center around the idea that teenage girls don't want sex/don't derive status from it, and teenage boys do.

I think that's mostly absurd. While the male libido is in high gear at that age, it doesn't at all mean that the female libido is absent, or that girls are uninterested.

What seems to be the biggest difference is whether or not it's coercive on the part of the adult. I'm reminded of a college buddy who'd had this happen to him when he was in high school. A young-ish woman (IIRC she was in her mid-late 20s at the time) had essentially coerced him into sex through her role as a martial arts teacher. And let me tell you, it FUCKED him up as far as his relationships with women were concerned. And I'm absolutely sure the same thing happens when it's an adult male coercing a teenage girl.

But... if 16 year old Lolita seduces her 40 year old unmarried male neighbor because she thinks he's hot, interesting, and not part of her school social circle, where's the harm? In large part, it's two consenting people, and no different than if it was 40 year old unmarried neighbor and her 16 year old teenage boy neighbor.

It's the coercion/power differential that's the thing; it's amplified by the adult/teenager thing, but fundamentally it's no different than the "traditional" superior/subordinate type sex assault.
  #102  
Old 02-12-2019, 10:59 AM
CookingWithGas's Avatar
CookingWithGas CookingWithGas is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Tysons Corner, VA, USA
Posts: 12,818
Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by nelliebly
Maybe it shouldn't be surprising that some think it's a good thing for a 30-year-old woman to seduce an underaged boy.
Not a single person has argued such a thing. Not one.
Well, yeah they have. Let's start with the OP:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole View Post
For my part, if I think back to my teenage years, I am certain I would have been pretty happy if a hot teacher or friend's mom decided to seduce me.
And then others go on. I've only looked at the first 20 posts so far:

Quote:
Originally Posted by puzzlegal View Post
But yeah, the men whose stories I've read who had sex when they were teens (with an adult man or woman) were mostly happy about it[....]

Last edited by CookingWithGas; 02-12-2019 at 11:00 AM. Reason: added embedded quote
  #103  
Old 02-12-2019, 11:05 AM
Littleman Littleman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by bump View Post
Bingo! Dead on.

I look at it this way- most of the arguing that it's different somehow for a teenage girl/adult man versus a teenage boy/adult woman seem to center around the idea that teenage girls don't want sex/don't derive status from it, and teenage boys do.

I think that's mostly absurd. While the male libido is in high gear at that age, it doesn't at all mean that the female libido is absent, or that girls are uninterested.

What seems to be the biggest difference is whether or not it's coercive on the part of the adult. I'm reminded of a college buddy who'd had this happen to him when he was in high school. A young-ish woman (IIRC she was in her mid-late 20s at the time) had essentially coerced him into sex through her role as a martial arts teacher. And let me tell you, it FUCKED him up as far as his relationships with women were concerned. And I'm absolutely sure the same thing happens when it's an adult male coercing a teenage girl.

But... if 16 year old Lolita seduces her 40 year old unmarried male neighbor because she thinks he's hot, interesting, and not part of her school social circle, where's the harm? In large part, it's two consenting people, and no different than if it was 40 year old unmarried neighbor and her 16 year old teenage boy neighbor.

It's the coercion/power differential that's the thing; it's amplified by the adult/teenager thing, but fundamentally it's no different than the "traditional" superior/subordinate type sex assault.
That's basically what I've been trying to say.
We must assume an element if coercion bc they aren't consenting age, sentencing centers around the degree of that coercion.

Other arguments of psychological or other damage would be great for a civil case but don't directly effect the legality.

I believe this is why in the OPs post the case mentioned, the DA paints the woman as a mother figure.

This is also the root of why we look at it different when the adult is 19 and the minor is 16 vs when the adult is 40 and the minor is 15.

Or why it's different in a teacher student dynamic. Etc.

Judges also seem to take into account mental age, whether the minor was actually actively trying to be the seducer, and to some extent whether the person was sexually active already.
  #104  
Old 02-12-2019, 12:02 PM
Sitnam Sitnam is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 8,902
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuelA View Post
This is frequently used as an example for why when women claim that men are "privileged" they neglect to mention a few things. Like massive disparities in criminal sentencing, drafts for wars, how charities treat them, that sort of thing.
Bovine Excrement

Iím sure you have a cite for the power block of women that keeps them safe from criminal sentencing, the draft, and.....how charities treat them????

Those Ďadvantagesí are imposed on them. They would trade them in a second to earn the same at work. Bet.
  #105  
Old 02-12-2019, 01:36 PM
Grestarian Grestarian is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Garage & Lab
Posts: 1,449
Quote:
Originally Posted by Littleman View Post
That's basically what I've been trying to say.
We must assume an element if coercion bc they aren't consenting age, sentencing centers around the degree of that coercion.
[Emphasis is mine.]

As with my previous (quite cynical) post, I'm looking at this via a longer-term anthropological view.

Note that even the 'age of consent' is different now in different US States and it has changed considerably over time. In the ending chapters of Little House... Laura Ingalls [Wylder] boasts that she's almost sixteen; about the same age as her mother (Caroline?) was when she got married to Little Joe*

We also know that some cultures considered 10 or 12 (or even 6) to be a suitable marrying age. We've even had subcultures in the USA reviving such 'daughter-trading' practices in the 20th and 21st centuries. Within those subcultures, such April/December pairings were considered the norm, regardless of the value-judgements of outsiders.

I'm still suggesting# the socio/cultural/legal outrage is mostly a hold-over from when men were 100% in charge and got pissy about having their daughters spoiled -- moreover without the father's approval.

---G!
* Yes, I know I'm mixing TV programs
# Nope, no cites; just throwing it out there for people to contemplate and kick around in this discussion.
  #106  
Old 02-12-2019, 01:45 PM
Littleman Littleman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sitnam View Post
Bovine Excrement

Iím sure you have a cite for the power block of women that keeps them safe from criminal sentencing, the draft, and.....how charities treat them????

Those Ďadvantagesí are imposed on them. They would trade them in a second to earn the same at work. Bet.
That's hilarious.
Since the pay gap is made up almost entirely of a few select industries.
  #107  
Old 02-12-2019, 01:52 PM
Littleman Littleman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 800
https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat39.htm

Not to mention the are occupations what women out earn men.

Meaning you can only conclude that the factors are different for any given position and the only women who would stand to gain anything exist within a select number of industries, predominantly those with potential for extremely high paid jobs.
  #108  
Old 02-12-2019, 01:57 PM
Littleman Littleman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grestarian View Post
[Emphasis is mine.]

As with my previous (quite cynical) post, I'm looking at this via a longer-term anthropological view.

Note that even the 'age of consent' is different now in different US States and it has changed considerably over time. In the ending chapters of Little House... Laura Ingalls [Wylder] boasts that she's almost sixteen; about the same age as her mother (Caroline?) was when she got married to Little Joe*

We also know that some cultures considered 10 or 12 (or even 6) to be a suitable marrying age. We've even had subcultures in the USA reviving such 'daughter-trading' practices in the 20th and 21st centuries. Within those subcultures, such April/December pairings were considered the norm, regardless of the value-judgements of outsiders.

I'm still suggesting# the socio/cultural/legal outrage is mostly a hold-over from when men were 100% in charge and got pissy about having their daughters spoiled -- moreover without the father's approval.

---G!
* Yes, I know I'm mixing TV programs
# Nope, no cites; just throwing it out there for people to contemplate and kick around in this discussion.
I'm sure that's part of it, however to argue that punishments should be gender neutral you would basically have to conclude that men don't bully or oppress or coerce women and that isn't amplified even more for a girl.

After all we certainly adjust punishments based on exact circumstances ....if gender doesn't factor in then we are saying there is no male/female dynamic that changes the level of coercion.
  #109  
Old 02-12-2019, 02:08 PM
CookingWithGas's Avatar
CookingWithGas CookingWithGas is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Tysons Corner, VA, USA
Posts: 12,818
Quote:
Originally Posted by bump View Post
But... if 16 year old Lolita seduces her 40 year old unmarried male neighbor because she thinks he's hot, interesting, and not part of her school social circle, where's the harm?
Ask her at 30 what she thought about what she did when she was 16. A 16-year-old may willingly do something that has consequences that they are not emotionally or psychologically equipped to deal with compared to an adult. Even though in your scenario, the 40-year-old did not "coerce" the girl, there is a huge imbalance of maturity and it does not absolve the man of all responsibility. This doesn't even take into account the potential for pregnancy.
  #110  
Old 02-12-2019, 03:24 PM
nelliebly nelliebly is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Washington
Posts: 1,085
Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
Not a single person has argued such a thing. Not one.

As far as your other points, this is not 1975. Let a teacher just try to get the kid in trouble or mark down his grades after an allegation of an attempted sexual encounter. If her job remains intact after the accusation, and if by some miracle he remained in her class, she would be foolish to attempt to try to do so; that would just be more evidence that she was guilty and was taking retribution.
You didn't even begin to address my other points, and your first statement has already been proven wrong. As for your weak argument here, that his accusation alone is enough to cost the teacher her job, you're wrong there, too. An accusation alone is insufficient. To fire a teacher for an accusation that can't be proven is to invite a wrongful discharge suit. Surely as an attorney, you know that, though I can see why you'd choose to ignore it for this thread. Like females, males in that same situation are often disbelieved and suffer social scorn for coming forward. And the attitude a boy was "lucky" to have had sex with a teacher is yet another reason he's likely to avoid reporting.
  #111  
Old 02-12-2019, 03:45 PM
nelliebly nelliebly is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Washington
Posts: 1,085
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambivalid View Post
And girls need to be taught very early not to be cock-teases to all their future male teachers by dressing like little painted whores.
Quote:
Little painted whores
? Seriously? And you envision these teens who--gasp!--wear makeup and/or dress in violation of most school dress codes (and never get it trouble for it) are "whores" who are really out to sexually excite male teachers so they can then refuse them (cock-tease definition)? Pretty twisted, misogynist ideas there.
  #112  
Old 02-12-2019, 04:11 PM
Ambivalid's Avatar
Ambivalid Ambivalid is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: In my head
Posts: 13,379
Quote:
Originally Posted by nelliebly View Post
? Seriously? And you envision these teens who--gasp!--wear makeup and/or dress in violation of most school dress codes (and never get it trouble for it) are "whores" who are really out to sexually excite male teachers so they can then refuse them (cock-tease definition)? Pretty twisted, misogynist ideas there.
Sarcasm.
  #113  
Old 02-12-2019, 04:39 PM
Littleman Littleman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by CookingWithGas View Post
Ask her at 30 what she thought about what she did when she was 16. A 16-year-old may willingly do something that has consequences that they are not emotionally or psychologically equipped to deal with compared to an adult. Even though in your scenario, the 40-year-old did not "coerce" the girl, there is a huge imbalance of maturity and it does not absolve the man of all responsibility. This doesn't even take into account the potential for pregnancy.
Actually in his scenario the law assumes coercion on the 40yr olds part anyhow, for exactly the reasons you stated.

They may or may not lighten the sentence because of her behavior.....
  #114  
Old 02-12-2019, 04:42 PM
Littleman Littleman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by nelliebly View Post
You didn't even begin to address my other points, and your first statement has already been proven wrong. As for your weak argument here, that his accusation alone is enough to cost the teacher her job, you're wrong there, too. An accusation alone is insufficient. To fire a teacher for an accusation that can't be proven is to invite a wrongful discharge suit. Surely as an attorney, you know that, though I can see why you'd choose to ignore it for this thread. Like females, males in that same situation are often disbelieved and suffer social scorn for coming forward. And the attitude a boy was "lucky" to have had sex with a teacher is yet another reason he's likely to avoid reporting.
Actually noone has argued that it's a good thing. While I would have been happy, doesn't make it a good thing.

In my situation that would have probably made it a less bad thing .....
  #115  
Old 02-12-2019, 05:30 PM
AHunter3 AHunter3 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: NY (Manhattan) NY USA
Posts: 20,008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole View Post
Sure.

Do you think a teenage girl is equivalent to a teenage boy in this respect?

Put another way, do you think they are both harmed in the same way and to the same extent if this happens to them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole View Post
Yeah.

Men and women are not the same when it come to sexual relations.

To pretend otherwise denies the obvious differences that exist.

a) You aren't making a case. You're waving your hand in a certain direction and asking us all to nod in agreement about stuff we all know and then using that "argument" to support a tendency to continue "knowing" it, but without developing the substance of it at all.

b) Be that as it may, let's posit, for the sake of argument, that as a generalization, the sexuality of female people and that of male people is different in precisely such a way that adult women having sex with teenaged boys is less damaging than adult men having sex with teenaged girls.

Generalizations are what they are; they describe a pattern to which exceptions exist.

Laws are what they are, too, and the ancillary legal stuff such as sentencing behaviors and so forth, and unlike generalizations, they apply to everyone. If laws (and sentencing behaviors etc) were to be allowed to vary in accordance with the generalization, the people who are exceptions are denied the full protections of the law.
  #116  
Old 02-12-2019, 05:35 PM
bump bump is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 16,779
Quote:
Originally Posted by CookingWithGas View Post
Ask her at 30 what she thought about what she did when she was 16. A 16-year-old may willingly do something that has consequences that they are not emotionally or psychologically equipped to deal with compared to an adult. Even though in your scenario, the 40-year-old did not "coerce" the girl, there is a huge imbalance of maturity and it does not absolve the man of all responsibility. This doesn't even take into account the potential for pregnancy.
I'm not saying it's the *right* thing to do, but that it's not different by gender- a 40 year old man shagging a 16 year old isn't inherently worse than a 40 year old woman shagging a 16 year old boy. Neither 16 year old is prepared for it compared to an adult. For that matter, if the 16 year olds are doing each other, they're no more prepared for it.

My point was that there are scenarios where it's fundamentally non-coercive- for both genders. It doesn't make it right, it doesn't make it good, but it does mean that adult male/young female isn't inherently predatory in a way that some seem to think it has to be. And for that matter, there can be situations where adult female/young male can be every bit as predatory as the reverse.

I think we all agree that adults* getting it on with teenagers is inherently an undesirable thing, and that it can be predatory on the adult side regardless of gender. But it's not inherently predatory, and it's not dependent on gender as to whether it's predatory or not.

*except in the edge cases where it's say.. a 21 year old man and a 17 year old girl, both of whom are in college together. (and yes, there are 17 year olds in college on occasion)

Last edited by bump; 02-12-2019 at 05:35 PM.
  #117  
Old 02-12-2019, 07:10 PM
Littleman Littleman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 800
16yr old girl sleeps with a 22yr old mentally handicapped man

16yr old boy sleeps with a 22yr old mentally handicapped woman

Two 16 year olds sleep together

All of these people have committed the same crime (exception for the last couple in some states), do punish them all equally?
Do genders factor in?

They have all committed the same crime as a 40 yr old with any 16yr old...do we punish them the same?

22yr old woman goes to a boy band concert and is invited backstage and sleeps with a member.

35 yr old male teacher sleeps with a 16yr old female student

20yr old virgin girl with her 17yr old bf who's had multiple partners.

All those over 18 here committed the same crime, do we punish them all equally? Do their genders factor in?


I know bump seems to agree we have to look at the whole picture at least.

The problem of just a scenario supporting non coercive is that then the age doesn't, so no matter how much the minor may be the one displaying coercive behavior the coercion still falls to the adult side.....it can only legally fall shorter or farther over the line.
  #118  
Old 02-12-2019, 09:41 PM
CookingWithGas's Avatar
CookingWithGas CookingWithGas is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Tysons Corner, VA, USA
Posts: 12,818
Quote:
Originally Posted by bump View Post
My point was that there are scenarios where it's fundamentally non-coercive- for both genders.
I probably misunderstood your point. However, I took your point of non-coercion to mean it's all OK.

I think there is a consistent issue in this thread with the use of the word "coerce." One dictionary definition is "persuade (an unwilling person) to do something by using force or threats." I think for some statutes the legal definition may vary (IANAL), where it may mean "persuade a willing person to do something that they are not morally or legally able to consent to." For example, if a person who is 16 says to a person who is 40, "Sure, I'll have sex with you" they have consented by the dictionary definition, but not by the legal definition, since they are legally defined to be unable to consent. So there was no coercion in terms of force, but coercion may be presumed.
  #119  
Old 02-13-2019, 12:45 AM
GoneToTexas GoneToTexas is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 1
Eh...

Howdy do, all,

Fun discussion! Here's my wordy reply, which you may read if you really don't have anything better to do:
------------------------------------
You can divide convicted criminals several ways. One way that doesn't get much press is this one:
Convicted criminals are either:
a.) people we're afraid of,
b.) people we're mad at, or
c.) people who are sick, and caused harm because of their sickness; so, at best, we feel a mixture of pity and fear.

If you can suggest any other subdivisions, please add them.

A woman in a position of authority fails to control herself with an immature boy (i.e. all 15-year-olds). Which type is she? Does it matter in the sentencing hearing?

I suggest that it's a fantastic waste of money to imprison all the people we're mad at. Add the people who are sick in the head, and we find ourselves one of the world's most prison-bedecked societies.

I'd classify a 30-year-old teacher that boinked a teenaged student as:
a.) a person I'm mad at, because she abused the teacher-student relationship for personal enjoyment, and
b.) a person we need to be cautious of. If she failed to control herself once, she well might again; therefore
c.) there may be a medical reason at the bottom of this. Like, a hole in her sense of self that needs repair. Repair *how*, I leave to future brain doctors.

Were the genders reversed, that would be a real different situation, because (quick list) traditional-society power dynamic, possibility of pregnancy and its permanent alterations to body and life, likelihood that perpetrator wasn't looking for true love but just another notch in his stick, etc.

Just to heave another depth charge off the fantail before I go:

Would boys who have reached sexual maturity benefit from being given a first sexual experience with an older woman (or, man)? Assume this would happen in a virus-free, coercion-free environment, at a time approved by medical personnel. I'm not recommending it yet myself, but it might give the boys some much-needed learnin'.

Needless to say, this would be happening in some society in outer space somewhere. A modern America, shaped by Calvinists, Southern denominations, or/and other old-time Levantine religions, will never go for it inside of the next 50 years. After that, though, who knows?

Cheers, all--
  #120  
Old 02-13-2019, 02:00 AM
Sitnam Sitnam is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 8,902
nm....

Last edited by Sitnam; 02-13-2019 at 02:02 AM.
  #121  
Old 02-13-2019, 02:02 AM
Sitnam Sitnam is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 8,902
nm....
  #122  
Old 02-13-2019, 06:50 AM
clairobscur clairobscur is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Paris
Posts: 17,309
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulfreida View Post

For a teenage boy, the opposite happens; there is a certain evening up -- the older woman has the power of an adult, while he has the power of being male.
What kind of power do you think a fucking 15 yo has that evens out anything?

You expect that the 15 yo, thanks to his "male power" is as likely to coerce, manipulate or mislead a 30 yo woman as she is to coerce, manipulate or mislead him? Because if you think that they're an equal footing thanks to "male power", then it should be as likely that the 15 yo boy tricks or deceives the 30 yo woman into sex or a relationship as the other way around. Is that what you believe?

You think that because 50 yo male corporate executives accrue a disproportionate amount of power it somehow magically imbue 15 yo with "male power" that allows them to handle easily relationships with adults?

Do you also think that the minimum wage male worker about to be made redundant is in a situation of equality of power with the highly paid female manager of the human ressource department because he has "male power"? When you drop a dollar in the hat of a homeless beggar, you think he's in a situation of equality with you because he has "male power"?

Can a 30 yo black man have sex with a 15 yo white boy because the latter's "white power" makes up for the difference in age? If he's Black *and* handicapped, can he also have sex with a 15 yo white girl? Can a 30 yo black female have sex with a 10 yo white boy who has both "male power" and "white power"?

This kind of ability to completely ignore individual realities and situations in favor of theoretical constructs is amazing.
__________________
S'en vai la memoria, e tornara pu.
  #123  
Old 02-13-2019, 07:14 AM
clairobscur clairobscur is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Paris
Posts: 17,309
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers View Post
I'm willing to hazard a "no", on the basis that this is one of those very rare situations where trying to establish legal equality is too much at odds with biological reality, like trying to give the biological father an equal vote on whether or not the woman he impregnated can get an abortion.
What would this "biological reality" be? To begin with, I'm not convinced that there's as much difference as people say from this point of view between boys and girls. I know that male teenagers (and men in general) are expected to be willing to fuck anything, but that's not the case in reality. I had no interest in fucking any teacher as a teen, and I probably wasn't the only one. Anybody past the age of 20 was fucking old in my mind. I had in fact a classroom mate who had some sort of relationship with a female teacher, and I was finding the sight of him kissing an old fart like that (she was maybe 35, so clearly ancient) quite disgusting, not the slightest bit appealing (yes, they would French kiss in front of everybody. Even for the time, it seems quite incredible that they would have done that, but whatever). And the reverse is true : there's no lack of girls fantasying about their teachers. It's essentially a trope that they do that, in fact. And finally, as several people have pointed already, it's generally considered that girls tend to be more mature then boys, so if anything they should be *more*, not less, able to handle relationships with adults.

But even if there's a very significant difference, I really don't see how you could ascribe it to a "biological reality" rather than merely to culture. If you tell all boys, in all sort of ways (parent statements, movies, random comments on the internet) that of course they will naturally want to fuck adults women and that they'll be happy they did, and tell all girls, in the same way, that of course they'll find all adults creepy and will sorely regret it if something happen anyway, of course most boys will find the idea of fucking their teacher acceptable and even desirable and most girls will find the idea of fucking their teacher unacceptable and undesirable. Add to it the remains of concepts like expected female sexual purity, and even the simple idea that men and their sexual desires are generally expected to be "creepy"and disgusting, hence undesirable, while women and their sexual desires are pretty much never considered this way, but at the contrary as generally appealing, and it seems obvious to me that culture is going to play a huge part in observed behavior.

Even though it's of course possible that biology has something to do with it, I don't see how you can assume so much. Culture could very well explain all the differences (and, again, I think that the supposed differences are widely exaggerated to begin with).
__________________
S'en vai la memoria, e tornara pu.

Last edited by clairobscur; 02-13-2019 at 07:14 AM.
  #124  
Old 02-13-2019, 07:21 AM
clairobscur clairobscur is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Paris
Posts: 17,309
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneToTexas View Post

Would boys who have reached sexual maturity benefit from being given a first sexual experience with an older woman (or, man)? Assume this would happen in a virus-free, coercion-free environment, at a time approved by medical personnel. I'm not recommending it yet myself, but it might give the boys some much-needed learnin'.
And if we assume that boys would benefit from it, we assume that girls wouldn't because of...what, exactly?
__________________
S'en vai la memoria, e tornara pu.
  #125  
Old 02-13-2019, 09:31 AM
bump bump is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 16,779
Quote:
Originally Posted by clairobscur View Post
And if we assume that boys would benefit from it, we assume that girls wouldn't because of...what, exactly?
Yep, I was just about to post the same question. Swap the genders and throw in something about birth control (to either sentence really) and I don't see why there's any difference. It's not like both sexes don't need some instruction in how to do it properly.
  #126  
Old 02-13-2019, 09:51 AM
clairobscur clairobscur is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Paris
Posts: 17,309
Quote:
Originally Posted by bump View Post
Yep, I was just about to post the same question. Swap the genders and throw in something about birth control (to either sentence really) and I don't see why there's any difference. It's not like both sexes don't need some instruction in how to do it properly.
Even without birth control. It's not like ending up being a father at 15 is consequence-free. And there examples of that happening (a teenager fathering a kid with an older woman) and he's definitely on the hook for child support for the next 18 years despite the mother's action being deemed criminal.


(Note that in fact the age of consent is 15 over here, and I'm perfectly fine with it, so I'm mostly saying "15" because other people have been using this number. Make it a different age if you prefer.)
__________________
S'en vai la memoria, e tornara pu.

Last edited by clairobscur; 02-13-2019 at 09:56 AM.
  #127  
Old 02-13-2019, 11:06 AM
bump bump is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 16,779
Quote:
Originally Posted by clairobscur View Post
Even without birth control. It's not like ending up being a father at 15 is consequence-free.
Oh, I agree completely! It's just absurd that somehow this is different for girls than boys.

It's the same old arguments against women in combat- it boils down to silly and sexist arguments that they're not tough enough, are too pretty to get dirty/wounded/whatever, etc...
  #128  
Old 02-13-2019, 01:25 PM
Ashtura Ashtura is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,791
Yes, it's a double standard, and yes it's bad.

My remedy would be to throw the book just as hard at the women.

Unfortunately there's an open and highly pervasive "high five" mentality about older women sleeping with younger men that will not allow that to happen until it is changed. I think it probably has something to do do with a belief that as long as a man is sexally aroused, it isn't "real" assault
  #129  
Old 02-13-2019, 02:27 PM
Dale Sams Dale Sams is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,373
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneToTexas View Post
Howdy do, all,




Would boys who have reached sexual maturity benefit from being given a first sexual experience with an older woman (or, man)? Assume this would happen in a virus-free, coercion-free environment, at a time approved by medical personnel. I'm not recommending it yet myself, but it might give the boys some much-needed learnin'.



Cheers, all--
So a variation of the sex ed class seen in that Monty Python movie?? I'm all for that.
  #130  
Old 02-14-2019, 12:13 AM
MarvinKitFox MarvinKitFox is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 180
To the OP's question,
The ONLY real difference is the possibility of pregnancy for a girl.
In all other aspects the actions are identical.

And yes, they should be treated as identical in all ways, from societal to criminal.
  #131  
Old 02-14-2019, 12:29 AM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 21,452
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashtura View Post
I think it probably has something to do do with a belief that as long as a man is sexally aroused, it isn't "real" assault
Yes, along with the similarly toxic gender stereotype that it's somehow "unmanly" or "effeminate" for a man/boy not to be enthusiastic about sexual contact with any reasonably attractive woman. Constant indiscriminate horniness is equated with manliness.
  #132  
Old 02-14-2019, 06:12 AM
Gyrate Gyrate is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Greater Croydonia
Posts: 22,414
A friend's father was a high school teacher and mentioned that from time to time some of his female students would (if I am remembering his description correctly) "experiment with their budding sexuality by clumsily attempting to flirt with or seduce him". He found a policy of impenetrable feigned obliviousness to their efforts usually sufficed, although in one instance when a girl was standing behind his chair casually rubbing her breasts on his shoulder he turned suddenly and "accidentally" elbowed her in the chest - not hard, but hard enough to break her mood - and then of course apologized for his clumsiness. She went away.

So let's not assume that girls are any more (or less) hapless and unwilling participants in student-teacher relationships than boys are.
  #133  
Old 02-14-2019, 07:21 AM
Slow Moving Vehicle's Avatar
Slow Moving Vehicle Slow Moving Vehicle is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Posts: 3,408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gyrate View Post
A friend's father was a high school teacher and mentioned that from time to time some of his female students would (if I am remembering his description correctly) "experiment with their budding sexuality by clumsily attempting to flirt with or seduce him". He found a policy of impenetrable feigned obliviousness to their efforts usually sufficed, although in one instance when a girl was standing behind his chair casually rubbing her breasts on his shoulder he turned suddenly and "accidentally" elbowed her in the chest - not hard, but hard enough to break her mood - and then of course apologized for his clumsiness. She went away.

So let's not assume that girls are any more (or less) hapless and unwilling participants in student-teacher relationships than boys are.
And it would be just as unethical and abusive for a female teacher to take advantage of a boyís experimentation with his nascent sexuality as it would have been for your friendís father to have responded to his studentís clumsy overtures.
  #134  
Old 02-14-2019, 07:36 AM
Gyrate Gyrate is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Greater Croydonia
Posts: 22,414
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slow Moving Vehicle View Post
And it would be just as unethical and abusive for a female teacher to take advantage of a boyís experimentation with his nascent sexuality as it would have been for your friendís father to have responded to his studentís clumsy overtures.
I agree entirely. It does no good to treat the kids either as innocent naifs or as wanton horndogs when they are generally a huge confused mess of both at the same time and don't need an adult taking advantage of their confusion in a way that has a high potential for long-term psychological damage, even if the students think it's pretty darn nifty at the time.
  #135  
Old 02-14-2019, 07:36 AM
Littleman Littleman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 800
I'll believe it's the same when male prostitution with female customers becomes just as prevalent as the other way around and yet they can charge the same prices.
  #136  
Old 02-14-2019, 07:40 AM
Gyrate Gyrate is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Greater Croydonia
Posts: 22,414
Quote:
Originally Posted by Littleman View Post
I'll believe it's the same when male prostitution with female customers becomes just as prevalent as the other way around and yet they can charge the same prices.
...which has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with adults of either gender having sex with underage teenagers of either gender.
  #137  
Old 02-14-2019, 07:56 AM
Littleman Littleman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 800
And men are sick of being objectified.
And studies show women think about sex just as much.
And it's just as easy to walk into a place and seduce a woman as it would be a man.
And slut becomes equivalent to stud.

Whether it's physiological, psychological, or cultural doesn't really even matter. Fact is it is different right here and right now and won't be equivalent for a long time, if ever
  #138  
Old 02-14-2019, 08:01 AM
Littleman Littleman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gyrate View Post
...which has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with adults of either gender having sex with underage teenagers of either gender.
I think it's pretty good evidence that males and females are not on equal ground when it comes to sex.
I would say you could extrapolate that down a couple years in age but there's no need, because the same trend is prevalent regardless of age.
  #139  
Old 02-14-2019, 08:29 AM
Littleman Littleman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 800
And then you have the numerous studies that while teen boys are obsessed with sex, teen girls are thinking in terms of relationships.

https://slate.com/business/2010/11/a...ol-dating.html

So if there's sex involved, it's highly likely that was not her primary interest.
A boy may be dragged into a relationship that was not his primary interest but we don't forbid relationships, just sex

Last edited by Littleman; 02-14-2019 at 08:31 AM.
  #140  
Old 02-14-2019, 08:42 AM
Gyrate Gyrate is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Greater Croydonia
Posts: 22,414
The key distinction here is whether you're talking about social interactions, biological imperatives or legal repercussions. To borrow your example, the dynamics of - and demand for - (heterosexual) male prostitutes is different to that of female prostitutes, but both are breaking the same laws (generally speaking) and should be prosecuted equally.
  #141  
Old 02-14-2019, 08:47 AM
asahi's Avatar
asahi asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 8,028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
Yes, teenage boys are usually very easy to take advantage of. That's precisely why we have these laws.
When I was a teenager, I probably would have given my right arm to have been 'taken advantage of'. But I agree, it's a double standard, and there are indeed reasons why we have these laws. Even if you don't necessarily agree that it 'damages' a male minor, I've always felt that these laws should exist out of respect for his parents, who have a right not to have their child corrupted.
  #142  
Old 02-14-2019, 09:03 AM
AHunter3 AHunter3 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: NY (Manhattan) NY USA
Posts: 20,008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Littleman View Post
And men are sick of being objectified.
And studies show women think about sex just as much.
And it's just as easy to walk into a place and seduce a woman as it would be a man.
And slut becomes equivalent to stud.

Whether it's physiological, psychological, or cultural doesn't really even matter. Fact is it is different right here and right now and won't be equivalent for a long time, if ever
The point is, all of the sarcastic attributions you just made really do apply to some men and women.

Laws and policies should not deprive the gender-variant minority of equal protection just because we are in fact a minority.

Attitudes are trickier. I don't expect people to cease expecting the normative. I would like to insert an understanding of gender-variant people into the culture's Overton window. That would probably be sufficient w/regards to attitudes: "oh, I get it, this is one of those feminine males and I'd be closer to the mark assuming what I'd ordinarily assume about women when it comes to this guy". etc.
  #143  
Old 02-14-2019, 09:59 AM
DSeid's Avatar
DSeid DSeid is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 21,358
So established that there is no debate that as to the issue of consent and emotional/cognitive maturity boys 15 years old and under are generally less mature (by about two years) than are girls the same age, so are, if anything, less competent to give consent, whatever they think they want.

Despite the no greater to less competency to give consent the argument is being made that girls 15 and under, in general, are coerced, while boys are eager and grateful. (Citation for this basically being recalled wet dreams and Penthouse Letters enjoyed.)

The scenario the OP started us off with was a 36 year old neighbor who had sex with a "troubled" 15 year-old boy had been getting mother figure support from. Her sentence was 1 to 2 years and it was criticized as an unjustified double standard.

How is this double standard justified?

Do we assume that a boy who is having a very difficult time at home who is getting emotional support from a woman playing mother figure 21 years older than him, is being taken advantage of less, is less a victim of an abused power dynamic, is less coerced than a 15 year old girl "seduced" by a man in a similar position above her? Because "boy" means horny and eager and "girl" means blushing shy flower?

In what manner was this less coercive than Roy Moore's (alleged) "seductions" of similarly aged girls when he was a relatively mere 31 and 32?


Let's also do the very annoying act of throwing facts and data into the conversation. Yeah,

Most of the sexual activity between young teens and older individuals is not with those twice their age, instead
Quote:
Most of these sexual experiences occur between young teens and older teens, rather than between young teens and adults aged 20 or older. In fact, few of these sexual relationships (14 percent) occurred between young teens and individuals who were eight or more years older.
The typical age gap between young teens and older individuals who are sexually
involved is three to four years." The power differential is not that level of extreme. These events cannot be conflated with the 30 year old individual having sex with a child 15 years old or younger.

As to this sex with the individual a few years older than they are:
Quote:
Most of these sexual experiences were voluntary. Although young female teens who engaged in sex with older males were twice as likely as were other sexually experienced female teens to report that their sexual relationship was nonvoluntary, eight out of ten young females reported that their relationship with an older individual was voluntary, and two-thirds of males reported that they wanted this first sexual experience with an older female.
(The majority (53%) of girls 15 and under with older partners were "mixed" about it though, which is the same majority that felt the same way otherwise starting sex under 18.)

Also, even though most of these encounters in both genders is not forced their is an association in both genders such that
Quote:
early sex with older individuals is linked with nonvoluntary and forced sex.
Yes there are consequences.

Boys and girls commonly view sex differently. Boys are less mature emotionally and cognitively and therefore easier to take advantage of. Teens 15 and under having sex with a dramatically older individual (e.g. 30 or over, like Roy Moore or the example of the OP) are uncommon in all gender pair-ups and are as abusive, inclusive of a child who says they "wanted" to have the sex.
  #144  
Old 02-14-2019, 10:47 AM
Slow Moving Vehicle's Avatar
Slow Moving Vehicle Slow Moving Vehicle is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Posts: 3,408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Littleman View Post
I think it's pretty good evidence that males and females are not on equal ground when it comes to sex.
I would say you could extrapolate that down a couple years in age but there's no need, because the same trend is prevalent regardless of age.
You seem to think the significant distinction at issue here is that between male and female sexuality. Itís not; itís the distinction between an adultís and a childís sexualities. The case that prompted this thread was an adult abusing a child; the fact that the adult is female and the child male is irrelevant.

In my opinion, anyway.
  #145  
Old 02-14-2019, 10:51 AM
DSeid's Avatar
DSeid DSeid is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 21,358
Quote:
Originally Posted by Littleman View Post
Whether it's physiological, psychological, or cultural doesn't really even matter. Fact is it is different right here and right now and won't be equivalent for a long time, if ever
Oh. This tautologic tripe needs comment.

The argument that we must passively accept double standards and stereotypes because double standards exist and people hold stereotypes, facts on the ground, is absolutely inane on its face. In this society right now a vulnerable boy that was groomed for abuse who says they were coerced by an older (and "attractive") female into sex will be judged by cultural norms as less of a man, less of the man he wants to be. They are less likely to report so and even if they do, are less likely to be believed, the perp judged less severely than if she was a man. "He didn't really want it? What kind of boy is that? I fantasized to that! If he didn't want it why did get an erection? Men are not raped."

Can you at least appreciate the self-sameness with a '50s argument of "homosexuality is a disease" and queers should be demonized on the basis of the culture stating it to be so? So gays should have stayed closeted and we all should have accepted the standard.
  #146  
Old 02-14-2019, 11:11 AM
bump bump is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 16,779
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSeid View Post
In this society right now a vulnerable boy that was groomed for abuse who says they were coerced by an older (and "attractive") female into sex will be judged by cultural norms as less of a man, less of the man he wants to be. They are less likely to report so and even if they do, are less likely to be believed, the perp judged less severely than if she was a man. "He didn't really want it? What kind of boy is that? I fantasized to that! If he didn't want it why did get an erection? Men are not raped."
Amen to that... there's a real stereotype that men just HAVE to be good to go with nearly any woman that is even vaguely attractive, or there's something wrong with him in a fundamental way. It's probably more intense for teenage boys- nobody can believe that they wouldn't just jump at the chance, or worse, they feel like they HAVE to do it because it's what's expected of them by society and their peers/other males.

That's a sort of coercion I'd say, even if it's not direct.
  #147  
Old 02-14-2019, 02:07 PM
llcoolbj77 llcoolbj77 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: 3 East Market Street
Posts: 948
IAAL. I criminal defense lawyer. A few points to make:

1. In every case, male or female, where the perpetrator was more than 8-10 years older than the child, regardless of gender, the child was pretty emotionally fucked up. For all the reasons one would think. Adults who are incapable of "scoring" a near-aged sex partner, which lead them to form a relationship with a child, are incapable for a reason. And those reasons manifest themselves in being pretty manipulative and shitty romantic partners. It's not so much the sex or sex-act. It's the emotional manipulation and grooming that fucks kids up.

2. Sex offender evaluations. In my state, and I'm sure in most, any person charged with a felony sex crime is going to be subject to a forensic psychosexual evaluation. Using data for recidivism rates, among other things, the evaluations will look at multiple factors to determine long-term risk. Interestingly, there are so few female sex offenders, i.e., the pool is so small, that there are no scientifically validated recidivism studies that predict whether a female is a risk to re-offend. So in my jurisdiction, a male being sentenced by a judge is going to have a 30 page forensic evaluation detailing where they fit in this 'risk spectrum,' and suggestions for treatment modalities based on their risk. Whereas the report for a female will essentially say, there is no scientifically validated way for us to predict risk for women... so... um... therapy? This essentially leaves judges to guess.

3. Hypothetically: I may have had a client who was a 40yo woman who met a 16yo boy on a World of Warcraft forum. They talked over a course of months and the relationship morphed into nude photos, love declarations, and promises to meet and rescue each other from this cruel cruel world. She solicited nude pics, sent nude pics, and made plans to come meet him for sex. Parents found out and contacted law enforcement. Client was arrested. This kid was seriously fucked up emotionally about this case. It was terribly sad. The male prosecutor had a very, "get this boy his luckiest boy in the world" attitude and did a shitty job of advocating for the state. I did my part. My hypothetical client got a time served sentence (4 months), and the Judge waggled his finger at her and reminded her not to contact him again until he is 18.

It was a great result for my client. I was digusted.
  #148  
Old 02-14-2019, 07:45 PM
Littleman Littleman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSeid View Post
Oh. This tautologic tripe needs comment.

The argument that we must passively accept double standards and stereotypes because double standards exist and people hold stereotypes, facts on the ground, is absolutely inane on its face. In this society right now a vulnerable boy that was groomed for abuse who says they were coerced by an older (and "attractive") female into sex will be judged by cultural norms as less of a man, less of the man he wants to be. They are less likely to report so and even if they do, are less likely to be believed, the perp judged less severely than if she was a man. "He didn't really want it? What kind of boy is that? I fantasized to that! If he didn't want it why did get an erection? Men are not raped."

Can you at least appreciate the self-sameness with a '50s argument of "homosexuality is a disease" and queers should be demonized on the basis of the culture stating it to be so? So gays should have stayed closeted and we all should have accepted the standard.
Btw nobody here is talking about kids under 15.
Majority of my examples use 16, which is age of consent in many states.

One thing that seems to show some consistency here is that somewhere between 15-16 we no longer treat people as complete children in sexual matters.
14 and under and In some places 15 and under just puts it into the category of child molesting.

We can do whatever we want to change double standards and stereotypes, changing them by first putting a bunch of people in prison and worrying about the rest later just isn't a great way of going about it.
  #149  
Old 02-14-2019, 07:50 PM
Littleman Littleman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by AHunter3 View Post
The point is, all of the sarcastic attributions you just made really do apply to some men and women.

Laws and policies should not deprive the gender-variant minority of equal protection just because we are in fact a minority.

Attitudes are trickier. I don't expect people to cease expecting the normative. I would like to insert an understanding of gender-variant people into the culture's Overton window. That would probably be sufficient w/regards to attitudes: "oh, I get it, this is one of those feminine males and I'd be closer to the mark assuming what I'd ordinarily assume about women when it comes to this guy". etc.
Which is why the law itself is the same for everyone.... Punishments are based on case specific evaluation.
  #150  
Old 02-14-2019, 08:00 PM
UltraVires UltraVires is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bridgeport, WV, US
Posts: 14,693
Quote:
Originally Posted by bump View Post
Amen to that... there's a real stereotype that men just HAVE to be good to go with nearly any woman that is even vaguely attractive, or there's something wrong with him in a fundamental way. It's probably more intense for teenage boys- nobody can believe that they wouldn't just jump at the chance, or worse, they feel like they HAVE to do it because it's what's expected of them by society and their peers/other males.

That's a sort of coercion I'd say, even if it's not direct.
By this logic, if the 16 year old boy does not have sex with the attractive 16 year old cheerleader that propositions him, then he will feel that something is "wrong with him in a fundamental way" and that if he does have sex with her it was "coercion...even if it's not direct."

It's hard to see by this statement how any (at least single) man can ever turn down sex at any time lest society shame him.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:55 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017