Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 02-10-2019, 10:46 AM
kayaker's Avatar
kayaker kayaker is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Western Pennsylvania
Posts: 30,656
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambivalid View Post
There are real, undeniable and consequential differences in the physical body structures of men and women. No one can argue that.
And yet if UPS paid their male and female drivers differently, they'd get called out on it.

Molesters should be treated the same regardless of their sex.
  #52  
Old 02-10-2019, 10:53 AM
Two Many Cats Two Many Cats is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Chicago
Posts: 4,286
Okay, for those of you who say a thirty year old woman having sex with your fifteen year old son wouldn't bother you that much....

How would you feel about a thirty year old man having sex with your fifteen year old son?
  #53  
Old 02-10-2019, 11:02 AM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Western New York
Posts: 79,878
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuelA View Post
This is frequently used as an example for why when women claim that men are "privileged" they neglect to mention a few things. Like massive disparities in criminal sentencing, drafts for wars, how charities treat them, that sort of thing.

As far as I know the main consistent way men get a "privilege" is they are more likely to be paid more and promoted at work. And also men tend to work more hours than women at work and don't have to take months off during their childbearing years so the amount of bias may be less than it appears on the surface.
Getting paid more and getting promoted more isn't a "privilege". It's a privilege.

And compare the number of people who have a job with the number of people who commit a serious crime or get drafted into a war. The ratio of men who face a situation where being a man is an advantage to the ones where being a man is a disadvantage is probably over a hundred to one.
  #54  
Old 02-10-2019, 11:05 AM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Western New York
Posts: 79,878
Quote:
Originally Posted by Two Many Cats View Post
Okay, for those of you who say a thirty year old woman having sex with your fifteen year old son wouldn't bother you that much....

How would you feel about a thirty year old man having sex with your fifteen year old son?
In a thread where the topic is about how society views the older person, I'd say a better question is how would you feel if it was a thirty year old woman having sex with your fifteen year old daughter.
  #55  
Old 02-10-2019, 11:09 AM
Ambivalid's Avatar
Ambivalid Ambivalid is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: In my head
Posts: 13,379
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayaker View Post
And yet if UPS paid their male and female drivers differently, they'd get called out on it.

Molesters should be treated the same regardless of their sex.
And yet....We are making the same freakin' point.
  #56  
Old 02-10-2019, 11:12 AM
kayaker's Avatar
kayaker kayaker is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Western Pennsylvania
Posts: 30,656
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambivalid View Post
And yet....We are making the same freakin' point.
And yet . . .yeah, *high five*.
  #57  
Old 02-10-2019, 11:36 AM
Ambivalid's Avatar
Ambivalid Ambivalid is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: In my head
Posts: 13,379
Quote:
Originally Posted by Littleman View Post
That's probably another determining factor here.
The girl is viewed as being more defenseless. No matter how she feels others think she may have felt like she had less choice.
And girls need to be taught very early not to be cock-teases to all their future male teachers by dressing like little painted whores. Just common sense, nay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Littleman View Post
I'm betting the reason complaint came to the table has more to do with his parents feeling inadequate because the boy was living at the other house to get away from them. Probably didn't want to come home when they finally wanted him back and they filed this as a vindictive move.
Your uninformed, and i gotta say kinda weird, opinion is duly noted for the record.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DSeid View Post
The fact that men and women are "different" is a non sequitur. How are they different in ways that matter for the ethics of consent?

Is one gender more emotionally and cognitively mature at that age than the other and thus more competent to give consent?

If anything girls' brains mature faster than boys' brains do. (A functional difference reflected in changes in brain structure in which girls are two years ahead.)

The ability to give consent is not a function of how physiologically horny someone is, or what wet dreams you had as a kid. It is based on having the individual having the cognitive and emotional maturity to be considered competent to give consent. Boys are slower to mature in those ways ergo if anything sex with an underage boy should be, if anything, a worse offense than sex with an underage girl.
This is why i always end up coming back. For the occasional moment of lucid thought and pushback against the eschewing of reason,when group-think would otherwise be leading the discussion down a wormhole.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Littleman View Post
In the case of the person below the age of consent.... Do they feel there was overt force or threat used? If so it's rape.
If not it's statutory rape., Corruption of a minor or whatever term the state actually uses.
I will type slower this time (I guess you're just gonna have to take my word-i am typing slower-just for you). Cite for the claims re rape laws? Notice i didnt say "please blather on as if I didnt ask you the question I did".

Last edited by Ambivalid; 02-10-2019 at 11:39 AM.
  #58  
Old 02-10-2019, 11:45 AM
Littleman Littleman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 798
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
In a thread where the topic is about how society views the older person, I'd say a better question is how would you feel if it was a thirty year old woman having sex with your fifteen year old daughter.
Or where do we draw the difference between " I don't like that" and a serious crime.

If my 16 yr old stepdaughter decided to date , a woman, man, whatever ... I wouldn't like it. Shes more rational than many adults I know though.

Would I feel like the 30 yr old woman needs to be a registered sex offender, lose all chances of a decent job, serve prison time .... absolutely not. I'd feel she needs mandatory counseling, restraining order, maybe a suspended sentence.

After reading that cite of mine seeing that the whole crime part actually hinges on coercion rather than damage. Whether we like it or not is really not what determines the criminality. I'm apt to base any criminality on the general dynamics of those relationships.

Woman coerces boy ( yeah, doubtful)
Woman coerces girl ... probably some
Man coerces girl .....most likely
Man coerces boy..... probably some


If your 20yr old daughter gets involved in porn you won't like it, doesn't make it a crime.
The producers are going to record her with her ID , stating what she's going to do is done willingly and is not coerced. Technically they'll need to do this with a man too but they never do for straight porn. Why bc noone is going to believe a man was coerced into doing a porn with that young woman.
  #59  
Old 02-10-2019, 11:47 AM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz Quartz is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Home of the haggis
Posts: 30,395
Quote:
Originally Posted by Littleman View Post
Yep I would have been happy to sleep with a 30 year old woman at 15,16,17 or basically any age and I do not believe it would have had any different lasting effects than the fact that I was having sex with 15-20 year old girls at 15-16.
Would you have been happy to have become a father? Would you be happy with 18 years of child support payments?

I rather suspect that at that age you would not have given either a second thought and such youthful immaturity is what young boys need to be protected against.
  #60  
Old 02-10-2019, 11:47 AM
Littleman Littleman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 798
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambivalid View Post
And girls need to be taught very early not to be cock-teases to all their future male teachers by dressing like little painted whores. Just common sense, nay?



Your uninformed, and i gotta say kinda weird, opinion is duly noted for the record.



This is why i always end up coming back. For the occasional moment of lucid thought and pushback against the eschewing of reason,when group-think would otherwise be leading the discussion down a wormhole.


I will type slower this time (I guess you're just gonna have to take my word-i am typing slower-just for you). Cite for the claims re rape laws? Notice i didnt say "please blather on as if I didnt ask you the question I did".
Cited, if you can't find it in this short thread that's on you, read slowly now. You'll come across it.
  #61  
Old 02-10-2019, 11:51 AM
Littleman Littleman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 798
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
Would you have been happy to have become a father? Would you be happy with 18 years of child support payments?

I rather suspect that at that age you would not have given either a second thought and such youthful immaturity is what young boys need to be protected against.
Would it be different if the girl was 16?
Nope, and I was having sex at that age and I did use protection and I didn't become a father until age 26.

I didn't need protection from my 16,17,20 yr old girlfriends either.
  #62  
Old 02-10-2019, 11:56 AM
Dale Sams Dale Sams is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,369
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole View Post
Why? (really asking)

For the sake of argument assume no power dynamic such as a teacher promising better grades...pretend it is a neighbor.
Because for the purposes of this q, I'm aging my almost 14 year IRL son (my first born) to 15. I don't anticipate him being a lot different. And I'm 95% sure this hypothetical neighbor would be my son's first sexual experience. So my gangly, pimple-faced son, who not the most social creature ...doesn't fit in well at school...the first woman he sleeps with is the 30 year old neighbor???

How the fuck did that happen??? How is that NOT disgusting? What is wrong with this woman's brain that she felt she should seduce a 15 year old boy who can't even grow a beard?
  #63  
Old 02-10-2019, 12:08 PM
Ambivalid's Avatar
Ambivalid Ambivalid is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: In my head
Posts: 13,379
Quote:
Originally Posted by Littleman View Post
Cited, if you can't find it in this short thread that's on you, read slowly now. You'll come across it.
Why do people interact with other people in such hard to fucking understand ways? Off with you then clown.
  #64  
Old 02-10-2019, 12:09 PM
Dale Sams Dale Sams is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,369
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
Getting paid more and getting promoted more isn't a "privilege". It's a privilege.

And compare the number of people who have a job with the number of people who commit a serious crime or get drafted into a war. The ratio of men who face a situation where being a man is an advantage to the ones where being a man is a disadvantage is probably over a hundred to one.
I seriously doubt your figure takes into account suicide rates, homelessness, divorce court and workplace injuries..
  #65  
Old 02-10-2019, 12:17 PM
Ulfreida Ulfreida is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: pangolandia
Posts: 3,309
I am not going to weigh in on the legality aspect but just want to point out two things.

One, a teenage girl can get pregnant, and if she does not get an abortion, it will derail her whole life. Not something that happens to teenage boys. Two, a teenage girl faces both the gender power imbalance embedded in our culture AND the power imbalance inherent in a relationship between a minor and an adult.

For a teenage boy, the opposite happens; there is a certain evening up -- the older woman has the power of an adult, while he has the power of being male.
  #66  
Old 02-10-2019, 12:32 PM
Tamerlane Tamerlane is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: SF Bay Area, California
Posts: 13,486
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fretful Porpentine View Post
In the real world, outside of the realms of dreams and fantasies, older adults who choose to have sex with teenagers instead of people their own age are usually pretty deeply messed-up, in ways that tend to mess up their partners as well. Also, sex is rarely a one-and-done thing where both people happily move on, especially when one of them is very immature. Usually, both parties have (often differing) levels of emotional attachment and expectations about future encounters, sometimes also mixed feelings about what happened, guilt, pregnancy scares, etc. The emotional fallout from sex, in short, is likely to be messy in ways that most teenagers are poorly equipped to deal with even with people their own age, let alone a deeply-messed-up older person. So the relevant question isn't "Would you have happily had a one-time sexual encounter with that attractive teacher?" it's more like "Would you want your teenage son to have sex with the type of teacher who chooses to have sex with a student, and then spend months dealing with the potential long-term consequences of such an encounter?"
Very well said. I always have a little trouble with this debate because I feel like that by weighing in I'm going to be taking a shit on my own ever so manly image . Because contrary to the OP and a sizeable number of guys who post in threads like these, I'm pretty sure sleeping with my 30 year old teacher when I was 15 would have fucked me up a bit.

I was always an amiable, fairly laid back kid who got along with most everyone and I believe I was rather more comfortable around adults than most kids my age due to some quirks in my upbringing. Almost to the point at times of inappropriately treating adults as actual peers. But when I was young I was very quietly a fretter and worrier - I rigidly kept my thoughts to myself, but I sweated a lot of trivial and not so trivial stuff. Having any kind of affair with a teacher I'm pretty sure would have tied me up in knots of doubt and worry. Never mind how fucked up that teacher would have had to have been to want to have an affair with me. Though in all fairness I had a mustache at 13 and my age was guessed at 32 when I was 17 - this hypothetical hot mess of a teacher would have had a fine defense in court if she hadn't, y'know, actually been my teacher .

So is it identical? No. Is it equivalent? Yeah, IMHO it is.
  #67  
Old 02-10-2019, 01:02 PM
Dale Sams Dale Sams is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,369
I went to HS 78-82. Went to a magnet school that drew the best scored black students (50%) and best non-black (50%) in the city. So it was very liberal. There was a 'smoke-hole' for all the 14-18 year olds to smoke. Smoking on stage for theatre productions were allowed. 18 year olds dated and slept with 14 year olds regularly and no one blinked. Student-wise. I wasn't privy to what their parents thought.

and given all that I still have to ask....WHAT THE FUCK WERE THEY PUTTING IN THE WATER AT THE SEX MOUNTAIN HIGH SCHOOL SOME OF YOU WENT TOO?? No one in my soccer team circle would have thumped their chests if someone said the neighbor seduced them at age 15. Thats a frigging sophomore. We wouldn't have asked, "Did it fuck you up?" but we also wouldnt have given a Fonzie "Ayyyyeeeee".

Last edited by Dale Sams; 02-10-2019 at 01:02 PM.
  #68  
Old 02-10-2019, 01:26 PM
CookingWithGas's Avatar
CookingWithGas CookingWithGas is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Tysons Corner, VA, USA
Posts: 12,816
Quote:
Originally Posted by Littleman View Post
Yep I would have been happy to sleep with a 30 year old woman at 15,16,17 or basically any age and I do not believe it would have had any different lasting effects than the fact that I was having sex with 15-20 year old girls at 15-16.
Sounds like you're talking about a hypothetical here, and in the rearview mirror at that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole View Post
For the sake of argument assume no power dynamic such as a teacher promising better grades...pretend it is a neighbor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole View Post
I think teenage males look forward to and seek out sexual encounters. I do not see why they would regard a 30 year old woman differently than a girl their same age when it comes to sex (ignoring the relationship...think one-night-stand).
The answer to all three of the above is that a 30-year-old woman who has sex with a 15-year-old boy has psychologically manipulated the boy, even though he consented on the face of it. (This is why entrapment by police is not legal evidence--the person may have done something willingly that he would not have done except for enticement to do so provided police.) This is entirely different from a peer-to-peer encounter between two consenting teenagers. I am not a shrink but experiences at that age can have lasting effects on healthy maturation. This may affect how the boy sees sexual relationships later in life, or he may later feel shame, or who knows what. 30/15 is not a healthy sexual relationship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Littleman View Post
A 16yr old boy is pretty physically able compared to most adults and probably stronger than a lot of 30 yr old women...much less likely to feel coerced.
As I mention above, there is not necessarily coercion in the sense that the boy felt forced to so something to avoid negative consequences, but certainly manipulation is involved.

This is the equivalent of dangling a piece of candy to get a kid to jump in your van. The kid was not forced, and what kid wouldn't like a piece of candy? Something to brag about to friends the next day. But he doesn't have the maturity to know it's not a good idea.
__________________
Making the world a better place one fret at a time.
| | |會 |會 |會 |會 | |:| | |會 |會
  #69  
Old 02-10-2019, 01:42 PM
Littleman Littleman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 798
Quote:
Originally Posted by CookingWithGas View Post
Sounds like you're talking about a hypothetical here, and in the rearview mirror at that.





The answer to all three of the above is that a 30-year-old woman who has sex with a 15-year-old boy has psychologically manipulated the boy, even though he consented on the face of it. (This is why entrapment by police is not legal evidence--the person may have done something willingly that he would not have done except for enticement to do so provided police.) This is entirely different from a peer-to-peer encounter between two consenting teenagers. I am not a shrink but experiences at that age can have lasting effects on healthy maturation. This may affect how the boy sees sexual relationships later in life, or he may later feel shame, or who knows what. 30/15 is not a healthy sexual relationship.

As I mention above, there is not necessarily coercion in the sense that the boy felt forced to so something to avoid negative consequences, but certainly manipulation is involved.

This is the equivalent of dangling a piece of candy to get a kid to jump in your van. The kid was not forced, and what kid wouldn't like a piece of candy? Something to brag about to friends the next day. But he doesn't have the maturity to know it's not a good idea.
Right but the legal tenet is that there is an assumed element of coercion. This is what makes it a crime as opposed to just morally reprehensible.

Legally two teens having sex can both be charged , it doesn't happen much because it's kind of hard to say they coerced each other.

At 16 I slept with my 20 year old girlfriend plenty. Totally illegal, anyone think she deserves prison time?
Legally she was no different than a 40 yr old.

While everyone makes good points about the moral aspects or views of the reprehensible nature , coercion is the legal foundation making such relations a criminal act .

Thus I'm basing the criminal aspect on the element of coercion.

All instances are the same crime but we are free to base sentencing and in some cases even whether we choose to pursue charges in the severity of that crime.

Last edited by Littleman; 02-10-2019 at 01:44 PM.
  #70  
Old 02-10-2019, 01:53 PM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Western New York
Posts: 79,878
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale Sams View Post
I seriously doubt your figure takes into account suicide rates, homelessness, divorce court and workplace injuries..
I don't know how suicide rates and homelessness are factors in a discussion about people having jobs, committing crimes, or being drafted. Workplace injuries are an issue related to jobs (and committing crimes or getting drafted I suppose) but it doesn't seem to be a gender-related issue.

I know that divorce settlements are an issue that comes up a lot during discussions of how men are discriminated against. But I think it's more often a case that men feel they are being discriminated against rather than actually being discriminated against. If a man feels that all of the assets in the family belong to him then he's going to feel it's unfair when a judge gives some of his stuff to his ex-wife. Even when it's being designated for the care of their children. What I think a lot of men resent is not the loss of the assets so much as the loss of control that they held through the assets.
  #71  
Old 02-10-2019, 01:59 PM
Mijin's Avatar
Mijin Mijin is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 8,802
Quote:
Originally Posted by Littleman View Post
Woman coerces boy ( yeah, doubtful)
Woman coerces girl ... probably some
Man coerces girl .....most likely
Man coerces boy..... probably some
Firstly I really don't think it's that simple. I think it's easy to conceive of situations where the boy is coerced, or where the girl is not only willing, but even the initiator. Certainly I can remember when I was in my early 20s several situations where girls under 18 hit on me very directly / overtly (disclaimer again: not that that would make it OK, and I never hooked up with any girl on the wrong side of the line).
With all due respect, I think there is a failure of imagination of some here to just see these situations as a single scenario, with maybe a handwave about "rare exceptions". I don't think the exceptions either way are so rare.

Secondly, even if harm were just "doubtful", as long as it's non-zero it's still a situation where an adult is entering into that relationship knowing full well she/he could be causing psychological harm to the minor, and negatively affecting their future relationships and life in general.

Last edited by Mijin; 02-10-2019 at 02:00 PM.
  #72  
Old 02-10-2019, 02:07 PM
Littleman Littleman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 798
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
I don't know how suicide rates and homelessness are factors in a discussion about people having jobs, committing crimes, or being drafted. Workplace injuries are an issue related to jobs (and committing crimes or getting drafted I suppose) but it doesn't seem to be a gender-related issue.

I know that divorce settlements are an issue that comes up a lot during discussions of how men are discriminated against. But I think it's more often a case that men feel they are being discriminated against rather than actually being discriminated against. If a man feels that all of the assets in the family belong to him then he's going to feel it's unfair when a judge gives some of his stuff to his ex-wife. Even when it's being designated for the care of their children. What I think a lot of men resent is not the loss of the assets so much as the loss of control that they held through the assets.
I think thisnis true in many cases.
I support a 50/50 split of gain during the marriage.
If I own a house prior to the marriage and it's value goes up 20 percent during the marriage she's entitled to 10 percent of the value, not 50

If it goes down 20 percent well, oh well I guess it's still mine.

If we take a loan on it then she's entitled to 50 percent of the debt, unless the loan went into improvements, then If I'm keeping it I get the debt.

Much like any other form of partnership.
  #73  
Old 02-10-2019, 02:15 PM
SamuelA SamuelA is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,902
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
I don't know how suicide rates and homelessness are factors in a discussion about people having jobs, committing crimes, or being drafted. Workplace injuries are an issue related to jobs (and committing crimes or getting drafted I suppose) but it doesn't seem to be a gender-related issue.

I know that divorce settlements are an issue that comes up a lot during discussions of how men are discriminated against. But I think it's more often a case that men feel they are being discriminated against rather than actually being discriminated against. If a man feels that all of the assets in the family belong to him then he's going to feel it's unfair when a judge gives some of his stuff to his ex-wife. Even when it's being designated for the care of their children. What I think a lot of men resent is not the loss of the assets so much as the loss of control that they held through the assets.
Nemo, first of all, what most men are complaining about is not that the wife gets some assets, it's that it's almost always a split in favor of the wife.

She gets the kids, therefore she gets the child support payments. And he made the money, so she gets alimony. And sometimes even the asset distribution is unfair - she gets the house, he gets some socks and has to move out to a shoddy apartment.

As for your statement about the draft : the draft was a threat to all males during both ww2, the korean war, and Vietnam. Fairly recent history, there. Hardly a "1 in 100" kind of threat. And an unfair divorce - since ~40% of marriages end in divorce, that means 40% of men will face unfair treatment in that respect.

As for receiving more pay and promotions at work : you totally missed the fact that men work longer hours than women and more dangerous jobs. Some attempts to correct for these imbalances indicate the gap is much smaller.

And some of the remaining gap may be, well, baked in. Men got a reproductive advantage for being powerful. Back in the tribal days, the alpha of the tribe likely had sex with multiple women...and likely got first pick of the newly sexual mature women in the tribe. So reflecting this ancient behavior, you would expect more men to want to become bosses and corporate executives, etc.

So even if we clean up discrimination completely (I am not saying there isn't any, just that it is less than it appears), you would expect there to always be more male corporate executives in a perfect meritocracy than female.

Also, the percentage of male adults who have to be worried about unequal treatment in the criminal justice system is about 40%...
  #74  
Old 02-10-2019, 02:15 PM
Littleman Littleman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 798
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mijin View Post
Firstly I really don't think it's that simple. I think it's easy to conceive of situations where the boy is coerced, or where the girl is not only willing, but even the initiator. Certainly I can remember when I was in my early 20s several situations where girls under 18 hit on me very directly / overtly (disclaimer again: not that that would make it OK, and I never hooked up with any girl on the wrong side of the line).
With all due respect, I think there is a failure of imagination of some here to just see these situations as a single scenario, with maybe a handwave about "rare exceptions". I don't think the exceptions either way are so rare.

Secondly, even if harm were just "doubtful", as long as it's non-zero it's still a situation where an adult is entering into that relationship knowing full well she/he could be causing psychological harm to the minor, and negatively affecting their future relationships and life in general.
Nothing is really that simple, which is why we leave it up to judges and prosecutors to determine specifics.
So we vote for judge's that seem to share our views and trust them to make those determinations.

If the judge decides coercion was severe, they give a severe sentence. If not, they give a lighter sentence.

So far it seems the majority have decided it's just not as severe in cases of woman on boy.
  #75  
Old 02-10-2019, 02:22 PM
Littleman Littleman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 798
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuelA View Post
Nemo, first of all, what most men are complaining about is not that the wife gets some assets, it's that it's almost always a split in favor of the wife.

She gets the kids, therefore she gets the child support payments. And he made the money, so she gets alimony. And sometimes even the asset distribution is unfair - she gets the house, he gets some socks and has to move out to a shoddy apartment.

As for your statement about the draft : the draft was a threat to all males during both ww2, the korean war, and Vietnam. Fairly recent history, there. Hardly a "1 in 100" kind of threat. And an unfair divorce - since ~40% of marriages end in divorce, that means 40% of men will face unfair treatment in that respect.

As for receiving more pay and promotions at work : you totally missed the fact that men work longer hours than women and more dangerous jobs. Some attempts to correct for these imbalances indicate the gap is much smaller.

And some of the remaining gap may be, well, baked in. Men got a reproductive advantage for being powerful. Back in the tribal days, the alpha of the tribe likely had sex with multiple women...and likely got first pick of the newly sexual mature women in the tribe. So reflecting this ancient behavior, you would expect more men to want to become bosses and corporate executives, etc.

So even if we clean up discrimination completely (I am not saying there isn't any, just that it is less than it appears), you would expect there to always be more male corporate executives in a perfect meritocracy than female.

Also, the percentage of male adults who have to be worried about unequal treatment in the criminal justice system is about 40%...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ti86veZBjU

The alpha thing is flawed , but the attraction to authority i will say is definitely not flawed.
Doesn't diminish your point but just FYI i guess. The alpha male is disproven concept taken in it's entirety.
  #76  
Old 02-10-2019, 02:49 PM
Biffster's Avatar
Biffster Biffster is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 3,714
I’d say the treatment of male and female statutory rapists isn’t the same but it probably should be. No matter how we try to fancy up the romantic nature of an encounter between a 15 year old and and 30 year old (Call Me By Your Name), it’s still a crime for a reason. The punishment should be based on precedent, whatever the going rate is. I’m not saying that I didn’t fantasize as a teenager about certain adult women—hell, I had posters of Charlie’s Angels in my room—but I didn’t act on those impulses.
  #77  
Old 02-10-2019, 02:59 PM
UltraVires UltraVires is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bridgeport, WV, US
Posts: 14,693
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulfreida View Post
Two, a teenage girl faces both the gender power imbalance embedded in our culture AND the power imbalance inherent in a relationship between a minor and an adult.

For a teenage boy, the opposite happens; there is a certain evening up -- the older woman has the power of an adult, while he has the power of being male.
Snip. I think this is the correct answer. For all of the progress we have made, I still think that under the surface people tend to view the male as the "head" of a marriage or a relationship. It is not at all like it was in 1850, 1950, or even 1985, but the subtlety is still there.
  #78  
Old 02-10-2019, 03:58 PM
CookingWithGas's Avatar
CookingWithGas CookingWithGas is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Tysons Corner, VA, USA
Posts: 12,816
Quote:
Originally Posted by Littleman View Post
Right but the legal tenet is that there is an assumed element of coercion. This is what makes it a crime as opposed to just morally reprehensible.
I think this may be technically correct but I don't agree with your conclusion. The thing that makes it illegal is the capability to give consent, and it is presumed that someone that young is not competent to give fully informed consent to a sex act and therefore is coerced, even if that person submits voluntarily. It is presumed that someone that age is not mature enough to understand the full ramifications of what they are ostensibly consenting to.

Just curious--how many conversations did you have with your 20-year-old girlfriend about what the two of you would do it she got pregnant? What would you have done if she got pregnant on purpose? The answer from most 16-year-olds would be, "Huh?" but these are life-changing events.
  #79  
Old 02-10-2019, 04:38 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 39,033
nm

Last edited by DrDeth; 02-10-2019 at 04:38 PM.
  #80  
Old 02-10-2019, 04:38 PM
Ambivalid's Avatar
Ambivalid Ambivalid is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: In my head
Posts: 13,379
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulfreida View Post
I am not going to weigh in on the legality aspect but just want to point out two things.

One, a teenage girl can get pregnant, and if she does not get an abortion, it will derail her whole life. Not something that happens to teenage boys. Two, a teenage girl faces both the gender power imbalance embedded in our culture AND the power imbalance inherent in a relationship between a minor and an adult.

For a teenage boy, the opposite happens; there is a certain evening up -- the older woman has the power of an adult, while he has the power of being male.
This is an extremely important point. It highlights the differences inherent in the realities of teenage girls and teenage boys which make comparing them in terms of harm inflicted as victims of predatorial sexual crimes impossible to regard as purely equal. Similar, no doubt. But not mirror images. The question becomes to what extent do these gender differences mitigate the consequences for the perp? I should think a pretty small amount. After all, the crime is borne of the perpetrator's actions, not of the victim's consequences. But those consequences are relevant. I guess im saying idk shit. I could have saved a lot of time and just said that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuelA View Post
Nemo, first of all, what most men are complaining about is not that the wife gets some assets, it's that it's almost always a split in favor of the wife..
You know what they say, "You win almost everything, you lose one or two." Or something like that.
  #81  
Old 02-10-2019, 04:50 PM
Littleman Littleman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 798
Quote:
Originally Posted by CookingWithGas View Post
I think this may be technically correct but I don't agree with your conclusion. The thing that makes it illegal is the capability to give consent, and it is presumed that someone that young is not competent to give fully informed consent to a sex act and therefore is coerced, even if that person submits voluntarily. It is presumed that someone that age is not mature enough to understand the full ramifications of what they are ostensibly consenting to.

Just curious--how many conversations did you have with your 20-year-old girlfriend about what the two of you would do it she got pregnant? What would you have done if she got pregnant on purpose? The answer from most 16-year-olds would be, "Huh?" but these are life-changing events.
Yes , exactly. So we tend to base the punishment on the extent of the coercion.
This is precisely why Ohio enacted a 16yr age of legal consent with a two ( i think) year close in age clause.

If we punish all instances equally , then every 16 ,17 ,18, year old that has sex with each other in a lot of states would have to end up on the sex offender list.

As for what if she got pregnant the answer would be the same, or at least very similar regardless of her age.

As I recall I had a great many more conversations about that with my mother than I did with the girlfriend.

Her conclusion was there was no way in hell she was going to be able to stop me from having sex short of locking me in the basement and I was probably better off with the 20yr old than another 16 yr old if something like that would occur. Also I reassured her that i was using condoms. She asked specifically if I could get them because she wasn't gonna get them for me . Also she was thankful my plan was to join the military anyhow (which I did) so within a year of having the kid id be able to provide some level of support if that were to happen.

I think we give 16 year olds a lot less credit for this than they should get. The lack of taboo and level of education in this area is far far better than it used to be. Do we really thimk they're perfectly capable of operating cars but not condoms?
Those carry life and death consequences too.

All of those consequence factors are extremely similar if not identical , regardless of the age of the partner.
  #82  
Old 02-10-2019, 05:10 PM
Littleman Littleman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 798
Also when Mom brought up she could go to jail ( which I believed bc I wasn't aware of the bias then)

I said "prove it, I'll deny I was ever even In the same room with the girl"

Of course, no cell phone to confiscate back then
  #83  
Old 02-10-2019, 06:21 PM
UltraVires UltraVires is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bridgeport, WV, US
Posts: 14,693
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
I know that divorce settlements are an issue that comes up a lot during discussions of how men are discriminated against. But I think it's more often a case that men feel they are being discriminated against rather than actually being discriminated against. If a man feels that all of the assets in the family belong to him then he's going to feel it's unfair when a judge gives some of his stuff to his ex-wife. Even when it's being designated for the care of their children. What I think a lot of men resent is not the loss of the assets so much as the loss of control that they held through the assets.
I agree with this. As I try to explain to my clients, marriage is an economic partnership. What was built during the marriage by each party is marital property equally owned by both. You get a situation where the man makes $200k/yr and the wife either didn't work or worked a smaller paying job---so she could take time off and be with the kids.

So the man's salary goes to making the mortgage payments and filling up the 401k and now upon divorce he complains that she is taking "his" money. It's not "your" money, dude, it is both of your money.

You got to make that big salary because she was taking kids to soccer practice, you were coming home to a clean house, and your shirts were pressed for work every day. You both agreed to that arrangement and now that she has decided not to pursue a career because of the promise that you would be spending a life together does not mean she can now fend for herself.
  #84  
Old 02-10-2019, 09:48 PM
Mijin's Avatar
Mijin Mijin is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 8,802
Quote:
Originally Posted by Littleman View Post
So far it seems the majority have decided it's just not as severe in cases of woman on boy.
I thought you followed my point, then you typed this sentence which I think ignores it again.

The point is, no-one has shown all instances of girl-man are worse than all instances of boy-woman, if anything just "more often" or on average.
And "more often" is not necessarily something that can/should be codified into law.

Last edited by Mijin; 02-10-2019 at 09:49 PM.
  #85  
Old 02-10-2019, 09:51 PM
Littleman Littleman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 798
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mijin View Post
I thought you followed my point, then you typed this sentence which I think ignores it again.

The point is, no-one has shown all instances of girl-man are worse than all instances of boy-woman, if anything just "more often" or on average.
And "more often" is not necessarily something that can/should be codified into law.
This refers to the majority of judges. Who are responsible for well, judging , the specifics of each case

I guess it could also refer to the majority of cases if going by sentencing results.

Last edited by Littleman; 02-10-2019 at 09:54 PM.
  #86  
Old 02-10-2019, 09:57 PM
Littleman Littleman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 798
Not really codifying into law. Just saying I really have no issue with it and I'm not complaining about the judges decisions most often being far more lenient in boy woman cases
  #87  
Old 02-10-2019, 10:52 PM
Mijin's Avatar
Mijin Mijin is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 8,802
OK, I think I get you now:

You're saying judges should base it on the individual case and the degree of coercion. And it happens to be that coercion is more common for girl-man and so that's why the sentences are harsher. But it's not that judges should be saying "Oh it's girl-man, therefore I should be more severe..."
  #88  
Old 02-10-2019, 11:56 PM
Littleman Littleman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 798
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mijin View Post
OK, I think I get you now:

You're saying judges should base it on the individual case and the degree of coercion. And it happens to be that coercion is more common for girl-man and so that's why the sentences are harsher. But it's not that judges should be saying "Oh it's girl-man, therefore I should be more severe..."
Yes! , Sorry , I know I'm unclear quite often. I'm not intending to be.

IMO the sentencing patterns generally reflect exactly that. Though there is probably a tendency to amplify it somewhat beyond a proportional level for girl-man ....maybe idk.

Either way woman-boy commonly being lenient is probably mostly due to them judging less coercion in the given circumstance. Rightly so, as it's a generally a bit harder sell to say a 16 yr old boy was coerced into sex....though I'm sure In some instances the boy is more like he's 12 and others hes more like he's 20.

Kinda ties in to the comment about the adult power/male power dynamic evening things up a bit more.

For me at 16 I was 6' 175lbs. , had a job, had a car ( for a while) , hung out with older kids, had already had a situation where the prosecutor declined to press assault charges when I beat up my stepdad in defense of my mother...it would have been hard to convince a judge I was heavily coerced by a 100lb adult female.

While for my youngest brother at 16 he still couldn't make himself food or pick out his own clothes or make friends his age because he was just still so much a child.
  #89  
Old 02-11-2019, 12:56 AM
Mijin's Avatar
Mijin Mijin is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 8,802
Quote:
Originally Posted by Littleman View Post
Rightly so, as it's a generally a bit harder sell to say a 16 yr old boy was coerced into sex....though I'm sure In some instances the boy is more like he's 12 and others hes more like he's 20.
Well I wouldn't put it like a mental age thing. Someone can be quite mature in general but not ready or willing to be in that kind of relationship and get dragged into it.

In fact I might go further than that: I'm not convinced the level of coercion is necessarily higher for girl-man. As I say, I am sure plenty of girls are willing participants in that kind of relationship (disclaimer: doesn't make it yadda yadda), so the ratio of willing-coercion may end up being the same.

But I am leaning towards thinking the potential harm may be greater on average.
I think if a woman that I wasn't physically attracted to coerced me into sex, I would be able to forget about it pretty easily. Anecdotally, I think it's not the same for women. And, though attitudes are changing, the social stigma is still not the same.

Last edited by Mijin; 02-11-2019 at 12:58 AM.
  #90  
Old 02-11-2019, 07:42 AM
Littleman Littleman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 798
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mijin View Post
Well I wouldn't put it like a mental age thing. Someone can be quite mature in general but not ready or willing to be in that kind of relationship and get dragged into it.

In fact I might go further than that: I'm not convinced the level of coercion is necessarily higher for girl-man. As I say, I am sure plenty of girls are willing participants in that kind of relationship (disclaimer: doesn't make it yadda yadda), so the ratio of willing-coercion may end up being the same.

But I am leaning towards thinking the potential harm may be greater on average.
I think if a woman that I wasn't physically attracted to coerced me into sex, I would be able to forget about it pretty easily. Anecdotally, I think it's not the same for women. And, though attitudes are changing, the social stigma is still not the same.
There's a lot of what ifs. I generally agree with judges decisions in cases of woman boy that ive paid any attention to.
Even physical stature adds a lot to psychological coercion. The teacher student
dynamic adds an element...so on and so forth.

Though I definitely agree with that last part.
In fact as an adult I once woke up to an extremely unnatractive woman performing oral.

When I went from dreaming to awake and realized what was going on I just tried to go back to the dream and enjoy it, didn't work. So I stopped her and went on about my day. A humorous experience for me, actually I just felt bad for her, that's a pretty harsch rejection for a woman i think.
  #91  
Old 02-11-2019, 08:40 AM
Gyrate Gyrate is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Greater Croydonia
Posts: 22,414
One of my wife's former students got a teaching job and shortly thereafter got into a relationship with one of her female students. And went to jail for it - rather stupidly, because if they'd held off on the sexual relationship for a few more months the girl would have been over the age of consent. The teacher still would have been fired and blacklisted but not jailed.

But there has been some effort to address the issue of female teachers having sex with underage boys. Part of it appears to be linked to a greater level of reporting by the boys and their families than previously.

Worth noting:
Quote:
Depression, low self-esteem and difficulty maintaining future relationships are among the long-term consequences that male victims face, according to experts.

Those problems are sometimes compounded by confusion and guilt over whether they are actually victims since their adolescent bodies involuntarily respond to physical contact.
Teenage boys' bodies may be thrilled with the attention but the situation, especially if continuing for a while, can cause psychological damage.
  #92  
Old 02-11-2019, 05:16 PM
Grestarian Grestarian is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Garage & Lab
Posts: 1,448
[I'm in a cynical mood today...]

I submit to you all that the modern laws and sentencing are rooted in ancient laws and sentencing which are tied to the values of patriarchal societies and those modern laws still have yet to be modernized.

The value of the female seducee is reduced. If the seducer was male, then (at the very least) the seducee's virginity is (at best) questionable. These matters reduce the value of the seducee to prospective husbands and could therefore require a larger dowry in order for a man to "redeem his chattel." A male-dominated society concerned with the male lineage of its descending generations would want to impose harsher penalties on those who throw into doubt the lineage and rights-of-inheritance of their daughters' children. The crime is less about the psychology or even physical welfare of the seducee; it's about the value of the daughter to her parents as a trading-piece.

In contrast, sons (or their parents) were recipients of dowries (if any) and the fact that a teacher might have 'spoiled' him doesn't typically reduce his marketability or put the (male) lineage of his offspring in question.


--G!
  #93  
Old 02-11-2019, 05:32 PM
Urbanredneck Urbanredneck is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 6,975
But then how many teenage girls will try to seduce an older male like say a teacher or coach?

How many adult women out there will recall having such crushes and secretly wished it had happened?
  #94  
Old 02-11-2019, 11:11 PM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 21,452
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuelA View Post
As for receiving more pay and promotions at work : you totally missed the fact that men work longer hours than women and more dangerous jobs.
If you completely ignore the traditionally "women's jobs" of childbirth, child rearing and homemaking, that is, not to mention sex work.

Even in a developed country like the US, the rates of death or serious injury from pregnancy and childbirth are greater than the rates of workplace death or injury in almost any majority-male profession. The mothers of most of the resentful men whining about men's "more dangerous jobs" have undergone greater risks and traumas from birthing and rearing those men than the men themselves will ever experience in their workplaces.

That doesn't necessarily affect the question of who should get paid more in a particular job, but it does put into perspective male complaints that it's unfair to describe men in the aggregate as "privileged".
  #95  
Old 02-12-2019, 12:36 AM
Bryan Ekers's Avatar
Bryan Ekers Bryan Ekers is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 58,420
Are adult women having sex with teenagers equivalent to adult men having sex with teenagers?

I'm willing to hazard a "no", on the basis that this is one of those very rare situations where trying to establish legal equality is too much at odds with biological reality, like trying to give the biological father an equal vote on whether or not the woman he impregnated can get an abortion.

Last edited by Bryan Ekers; 02-12-2019 at 12:37 AM.
  #96  
Old 02-12-2019, 02:28 AM
nelliebly nelliebly is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Washington
Posts: 1,085
Maybe it shouldn't be surprising that some think it's a good thing for a 30-year-old woman to seduce an underaged boy. Teachers may well be one of the more sexualized occupations in porn after all. Yet it's still wrong.

Let's look at the other side of this: a mature woman thinks a pubescent boy is hot--a boy who probably watches the Cartoon Network, shaves once a week even though he doesn't need to, and won't have a drivers license for at least another year. A boy who, were he to get injured or in deep trouble, will want his mommy. She's attracted to that? That's pretty sick.

It's illegal for a reason. Hell, he's too young to put it in context or to see down the road. A man in an office job can realize beforehand it's a mistake to get into a sexual relationship with a subordinate and can see what's likely to happen down the road. A 15-year-old boy can't. And that female teacher is supposed to be an authority figure, but she can't be that to him any longer. Is she really going to call his mom when he's been tardy too many times or hasn't turned in his homework?

So yes, she should get the same punishment as a man in the same position, regardless of whether things will "even up" somehow down the road. They're not "even" now. It doesn't matter how willing he is. Suppose she comes on to him, kisses him, etc., and he's not interested for some reason--maybe because she looks like Ernest Borgnine in drag (Sure, that's shallow, but he's a kid. Besides, you weren't thinking all these predatory female teachers are gorgeous, were you?) or because he's got religious convictions against it. You think he wouldn't be afraid to turn her down because it could hurt his grade, get him sent to the office, etc.?

Teachers know all this. Those who choose to ignore it should be banned from the profession and should, male or female, receive the same legal punishment.
  #97  
Old 02-12-2019, 08:57 AM
UltraVires UltraVires is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bridgeport, WV, US
Posts: 14,693
Quote:
Originally Posted by nelliebly View Post
Maybe it shouldn't be surprising that some think it's a good thing for a 30-year-old woman to seduce an underaged boy.
Not a single person has argued such a thing. Not one.

As far as your other points, this is not 1975. Let a teacher just try to get the kid in trouble or mark down his grades after an allegation of an attempted sexual encounter. If her job remains intact after the accusation, and if by some miracle he remained in her class, she would be foolish to attempt to try to do so; that would just be more evidence that she was guilty and was taking retribution.
  #98  
Old 02-12-2019, 09:42 AM
senoy senoy is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,671
The only thing I want to bring up is the 'cultural' problem where we discount the cultural differences between the sexes. They should be taken into account, largely because all crimes are cultural constructs.

Murder is pretty universal, but there have certainly been cultures where murder wasn't seen as a crime (beating a slave to death as an example.) Crimes are simply torts against a socially agreed upon framework. As such, the fact that we find 15 year olds incapable of consent is itself a cultural construct. If we find that 15 year old boys are not 'harmed' as much as 15 year old girls in a May-November relationship, then that's a feature of society, not a bug. Our society has largely decided to downplay gender differences. There are lots of reasons for it, primarily economic, but also philosophical. That doesn't mean that we are required to always downplay gender differences-it's OUR cultural construct to tweak as we see fit. We have girls sports as an example. I see no reason why we can't say minor boys and minor girls respond to sex differently and so crimes regarding them can be treated differently.
  #99  
Old 02-12-2019, 09:54 AM
Novelty Bobble Novelty Bobble is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: South East England
Posts: 8,074
Yes, it is the same and should be treated the same.

That is not to say that each case is the same, nor that more egregious and problematic cases might not be seen more on one side of the equation than the other but each case has to be treated on its own merit and the respective gender of the people involved should be disregarded.

I can well imagine circumstances where a 16-year old and a 30-year old can have a meaningful and consensual sexual relationship and the law should be able to accommodate that.
  #100  
Old 02-12-2019, 10:23 AM
UltraVires UltraVires is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bridgeport, WV, US
Posts: 14,693
Quote:
Originally Posted by senoy View Post
The only thing I want to bring up is the 'cultural' problem where we discount the cultural differences between the sexes. They should be taken into account, largely because all crimes are cultural constructs.

Murder is pretty universal, but there have certainly been cultures where murder wasn't seen as a crime (beating a slave to death as an example.) Crimes are simply torts against a socially agreed upon framework. As such, the fact that we find 15 year olds incapable of consent is itself a cultural construct. If we find that 15 year old boys are not 'harmed' as much as 15 year old girls in a May-November relationship, then that's a feature of society, not a bug. Our society has largely decided to downplay gender differences. There are lots of reasons for it, primarily economic, but also philosophical. That doesn't mean that we are required to always downplay gender differences-it's OUR cultural construct to tweak as we see fit. We have girls sports as an example. I see no reason why we can't say minor boys and minor girls respond to sex differently and so crimes regarding them can be treated differently.
Agreed. And the age is arbitrary as well. It is difficult to see why a 30 year old should get a horrific penalty for having sex with someone such that if he would have waited three months until she was 16 it would have been perfectly legal.

I understand that some laws have to be arbitrary for the possibility of enforcement, but someone closer to the line should get a lesser penalty. For example, I see the reason to set a drinking age, and 21 is objectively as good as 18 or 19. But a 20 year old drinking is less of an issue for society than a 14 year old drinking. The latter is a far greater problem even though the same law is violated.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:51 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017