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Old 07-09-2019, 02:09 PM
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Fuck you, Shenandoah! And you too, Confederate Railroad!


I've heard of the band Shenandoah but Confederate Railroad was new to me. The bolded part of this brief article on the AP is what really got my ire going:
Quote:
Illinois has canceled a state fair appearance by the Southern rock group Confederate Railroad because of its use of the Confederate flag.

A spokeswoman for Gov. J.B. Pritzker, Emily Bittner, said Tuesday that the administration prohibits using state resources “to promote symbols of racism.”

The group was scheduled to play the DuQuoin State Fair Aug. 27.

The band’s logo features a steam locomotive flying Confederate flags. The flag has been criticized as a racist emblem of slavery and segregation, but supporters say it represents history.

Frontman Danny Shirley says in a statement that the band is disappointed, but thanked their fans.

Confederate Railroad was to appear with Shenandoah and Restless Heart. Shenandoah says it will still play but that “this ‘political correctness’ has to stop. It’s tearing our country apart.”
How about you stop being racist, you fucking piece of shit asshole? Because I ain't gonna stop hating on racists.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 07-09-2019 at 02:11 PM.
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Old 07-09-2019, 02:26 PM
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I heard they got replaced in the lineup with "Swastika Train Cars"
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Old 07-09-2019, 02:39 PM
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They profess a fondness for the musical stylings of Elvis Presley and for the Andy Griffith show, so I am okay with them.
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Old 07-09-2019, 02:46 PM
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“The band’s logo features a steam locomotive flying Confederate flags. The flag has been criticized as a racist emblem of slavery and segregation, but supporters say it represents history.”

You can say the ISIS flag represents history too. Can I tour with them if I start a band called “Musicaliphate” and my logo has a child soldier with the flag of ISIS in one hand and a bloody guitar in the other?

I suspect they’d object slightly to the imagery.
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Old 07-09-2019, 03:06 PM
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It DOES represent history.

A shameful history of slavery and oppression. And those who dispute what it stands for need to go back and read what those who were proudly marching under it, claimed it represented, at the time. You’ll find their words almost always amount to ‘Our dominion over Blacks has God’s blessing!

What’s next. Defending the swastika as a cultural symbol distinct from it’s Nazi connection?
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Old 07-09-2019, 03:36 PM
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Whatís next. Defending the swastika as a cultural symbol distinct from itís Nazi connection?
Swastikas had been around for some 2400 years before the Nazis latched on to 'em.
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Old 07-09-2019, 03:37 PM
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Swastikas had been around for some 2400 years before the Nazis latched on to 'em.
NO WAY! Tell us more!
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Old 07-09-2019, 03:37 PM
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They could use the Betsy Ross Colonial Flag.
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Old 07-09-2019, 03:39 PM
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Now, let's get Lady Antebellum.

Edited typo.

Last edited by AlphaOmegaMan; 07-09-2019 at 03:39 PM.
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Old 07-09-2019, 03:41 PM
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Swastikas had been around for some 2400 years before the Nazis latched on to 'em.

Absolutely true. And yet, it doesn't mean shit today. If somebody has a prominent swastika tattoo I'm going to automatically think "neo nazi scumbag", not "bodhisattva". Wouldn't you ?
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Old 07-09-2019, 03:44 PM
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Absolutely true. And yet, it doesn't mean shit today. If somebody has a prominent swastika tattoo I'm going to automatically think "neo nazi scumbag", not "bodhisattva". Wouldn't you ?
By itself? Sure. Alongside stuff like ducks and concentric circles? Not so much.
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Old 07-09-2019, 03:44 PM
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Absolutely true. And yet, it doesn't mean shit today. If somebody has a prominent swastika tattoo I'm going to automatically think "neo nazi scumbag", not "bodhisattva". Wouldn't you ?
Wait, are you saying the Nazis changed what certain symbols and words mean? That's strange.
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Old 07-09-2019, 03:46 PM
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Wait, are you saying the Nazis changed what certain symbols and words mean? That's strange.
That's how culture works.
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Old 07-09-2019, 03:50 PM
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Someone should create a new flag that represents southern pride that does not include any confederate symbols- southern pride not as in "we miss slavery", southern pride as in country vs city, slow vs rushed, barns vs skyscrapers, RC and moonpie vs escargot, etc.- something southerners of all races could get behind. Then if you have the new flag and still use the confederate one, your intentions would be unmistakable.
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Old 07-09-2019, 03:53 PM
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Someone should create a new flag that represents southern pride that does not include any confederate symbols- southern pride not as in "we miss slavery", southern pride as in country vs city, slow vs rushed, barns vs skyscrapers, RC and moonpie vs escargot, etc.- something southerners of all races could get behind. Then if you have the new flag and still use the confederate one, your intentions would be unmistakable.
Southern Pride is racism regardless of the specific symbols.
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Old 07-09-2019, 03:56 PM
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It DOES represent history.

A shameful history of slavery and oppression. And those who dispute what it stands for need to go back and read what those who were proudly marching under it, claimed it represented, at the time. Youíll find their words almost always amount to ĎOur dominion over Blacks has Godís blessing!

Whatís next. Defending the swastika as a cultural symbol distinct from itís Nazi connection?
Crap!

My bad!

I meant to say ĎGerman cultural symbolí. As a Buddhist I am fully aware of the other meaning. And in a lot of places in Asia the original, slightly different, design is still used. And it wouldnít make me raise an eyebrow.

But if it was being defended as a German cultural symbol, yeah, thatíd be more in line with celebrating the confederate flag.

Apologies for the confusion!
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Old 07-09-2019, 04:08 PM
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Southern Pride is racism regardless of the specific symbols.
My post was two sentences long and you couldn't be bothered to read one- figuring out a way to celebrate pride in southern *culture*, not southern history, is not an idea I just invented. There are southerners of all races who wouldn't trade 2019 Nashville or Atlanta for 2019 New York City or Los Angeles.
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Old 07-09-2019, 04:10 PM
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Someone should create a new flag that represents southern pride that does not include any confederate symbols- southern pride not as in "we miss slavery", southern pride as in country vs city, slow vs rushed, barns vs skyscrapers, RC and moonpie vs escargot, etc.- something southerners of all races could get behind. Then if you have the new flag and still use the confederate one, your intentions would be unmistakable.
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Originally Posted by Helmut Doork View Post
My post was two sentences long and you couldn't be bothered to read one- figuring out a way to celebrate pride in southern *culture*, not southern history, is not an idea I just invented. There are southerners of all races who wouldn't trade 2019 Nashville or Atlanta for 2019 New York City or Los Angeles.
Southern Culture is racist.
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Old 07-09-2019, 04:18 PM
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Southern Culture is racist.
go read the definition of culture- for example blues music would be considered part of a culture, genius.
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Old 07-09-2019, 04:29 PM
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go read the definition of culture- for example blues music would be considered part of a culture, genius.
Blues music is racist (and misogynistic).
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Old 07-09-2019, 04:36 PM
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Blues music is racist (and misogynistic).

I read your posting history and thought I'd give benefit of the doubt- I assumed twelve year old (it's you're welcome, not your welcome, in a previous thread) or moron, I see now perhaps both?

Last edited by Helmut Doork; 07-09-2019 at 04:37 PM.
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Old 07-09-2019, 04:36 PM
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There was an old thread where we discussed the idea that the concepts of "the south" and "southern pride" make no sense except in the context of the confederacy and the civil war.

It might be difficult to find that thread now but basically it was pointed out that the phrase "the south" doesn't really define a geographic region - for example southern California is not considered part it - and that there is no pan-southern culture - for example New Orleans' cuisine and music is different from Orlando's.

The only thing that the states in the region called "the south" have in common is a 19th century rebellion.
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Old 07-09-2019, 04:39 PM
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There was an old thread where we discussed the idea that the concepts of "the south" and "southern pride" make no sense except in the context of the confederacy and the civil war.

It might be difficult to find that thread now but basically it was pointed out that the phrase "the south" doesn't really define a geographic region - for example southern California is not considered part it - and that there is no pan-southern culture - for example New Orleans' cuisine and music is different from Orlando's.

The only thing that the states in the region called "the south" have in common is a 19th century rebellion.
You are wrong there my friend.

They also have crappy music in common.
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Old 07-09-2019, 04:45 PM
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There was an old thread where we discussed the idea that the concepts of "the south" and "southern pride" make no sense except in the context of the confederacy and the civil war.

It might be difficult to find that thread now but basically it was pointed out that the phrase "the south" doesn't really define a geographic region - for example southern California is not considered part it - and that there is no pan-southern culture - for example New Orleans' cuisine and music is different from Orlando's.

The only thing that the states in the region called "the south" have in common is a 19th century rebellion.
I am not sure I agree, I can think of many things Southerners of all colors can rally around that Northerners generally don't- blues music, raucous church services, cornbread, chitterlings, RC and moonpies, slow pace, farms vs. condos, rural vs. urban, friendliness, fireworks, creek swimming, etc.?

Last edited by Helmut Doork; 07-09-2019 at 04:46 PM.
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Old 07-09-2019, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Helmut Doork View Post
Someone should create a new flag that represents southern pride that does not include any confederate symbols- southern pride not as in "we miss slavery", southern pride as in country vs city, slow vs rushed, barns vs skyscrapers, RC and moonpie vs escargot, etc.- something southerners of all races could get behind. Then if you have the new flag and still use the confederate one, your intentions would be unmistakable.

But none of the things you cite are Southern specifically. They're rural, and you'll find the same "values" and pride in the Midwest, albeit with 250% more Ranch and about 1280% more Jeet?, statistically.


As well there are things that are clearly exclusive to the South than are definitely not part of "Southern pride" for Reasons. The Confederate flag does not stand for a Cajun fais-dodo. It does not stand for Nawleens second lines. It does not stand for Billie Holiday's lovingly broken voice. It does not stand for Houston's viet-cajun joints. It does not stand for Tex-Mex. Can you guess why that all is ? Or find some sort of curious, no doubt coincidental link between the things and people it does stand for ?
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Old 07-09-2019, 05:03 PM
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But none of the things you cite are Southern specifically. They're rural, and you'll find the same "values" and pride in the Midwest, albeit with 250% more Ranch and about 1280% more Jeet?, statistically.


As well there are things that are clearly exclusive to the South than are definitely not part of "Southern pride" for Reasons. The Confederate flag does not stand for a Cajun fais-dodo. It does not stand for Nawleens second lines. It does not stand for Billie Holiday's lovingly broken voice. It does not stand for Houston's viet-cajun joints. It does not stand for Tex-Mex. Can you guess why that all is ? Or find some sort of curious, no doubt coincidental link between the things and people it does stand for ?
The Confederate flag is a racist symbol, anyone who flies it is inconsiderate at best, racist at worst.

Absolutely nothing I have said in any post in this thread says or implies otherwise.

All my posts centered around the feasibility of creating a symbol that stands, in 2019, for appreciation for the slow southern way of life vs. the stereotypical hectic nature of big city life, one that all races could get behind- 'don't hate each other, hate the Yankees'.

I am on your side here.

Last edited by Helmut Doork; 07-09-2019 at 05:05 PM.
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Old 07-09-2019, 05:15 PM
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The Confederate flag is a racist symbol, anyone who flies it is inconsiderate at best, racist at worst.

Absolutely nothing I have said in any post in this thread says or implies otherwise.

All my posts centered around the feasibility of creating a symbol that stands, in 2019, for appreciation for the slow southern way of life vs. the stereotypical hectic nature of big city life, one that all races could get behind- 'don't hate each other, hate the Yankees'.

I am on your side here.

Fair enough, but substitute "southern pride" or "southern values" for "the Confederate flag" in my post, and the point still stands. There's hardly a southern way, and THE southern way people talk about is that of rural white guys, be they po'folk or plantation types. I'll harp again on the Nawleens example : as "big cities" go, it's hardly ever been known as a busy or hectic place. Yet people from there wouldn't say they're Southern folk (although they'll beat the black/white off yo ass should you dare suggest they might not be creole) and self-described Proud Southerners would bristle at the notion of being lumped together with Nawleens.
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Old 07-09-2019, 05:39 PM
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Old 07-09-2019, 05:43 PM
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Old 07-09-2019, 05:47 PM
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I explained to someone once that the Confederate flag is history, like The Cosby Show. Once revered and now something we don't talk about.
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Old 07-09-2019, 05:55 PM
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I guess the question is whether there is a “southern culture” that transcends racial lines? I have spent time in the south (mostly North Carolina, where my ex-wife and daughter live) but my experiences aren’t extensive enough to be sure.

If there can’t be one southern culture, but multiple (generally along white/black lines) then I suspect that schism comes from lingering racism and the scars of past open segregation and oppression. In which case the idea of southern culture being racist seems valid.
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Old 07-09-2019, 06:07 PM
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I guess the question is whether there is a “southern culture” that transcends racial lines?
ISTM NASCAR comes closest.

Last edited by Skywatcher; 07-09-2019 at 06:07 PM.
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Old 07-09-2019, 06:10 PM
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Blues music is racist (and misogynistic).
Misogynistic, can't argue that the blues CAN BE misogynistic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XagQ3owbBEM

But racist? Please expound on this.
(Or be called terrible names, this is The Pit.)
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Old 07-09-2019, 06:14 PM
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Someone should create a new flag that represents southern pride that does not include any confederate symbols- southern pride not as in "we miss slavery", southern pride as in country vs city, slow vs rushed, barns vs skyscrapers, RC and moonpie vs escargot, etc.- something southerners of all races could get behind. Then if you have the new flag and still use the confederate one, your intentions would be unmistakable.

A flag showing a plate of fried chicken and biscuits. I would be quite proud to wave that flag.
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Old 07-09-2019, 06:16 PM
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A flag showing a plate of fried chicken and biscuits. I would be quite proud to wave that flag.
Iíd be tempted to eat that flag.
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Old 07-09-2019, 06:25 PM
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A flag showing a plate of fried chicken and biscuits. I would be quite proud to wave that flag.
Naw, man. It's gotta have grits.
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Old 07-09-2019, 06:45 PM
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There was an old thread where we discussed the idea that the concepts of "the south" and "southern pride" make no sense except in the context of the confederacy and the civil war.

It might be difficult to find that thread now but basically it was pointed out that the phrase "the south" doesn't really define a geographic region - for example southern California is not considered part it - and that there is no pan-southern culture - for example New Orleans' cuisine and music is different from Orlando's.

The only thing that the states in the region called "the south" have in common is a 19th century rebellion.
And mugginess.
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Old 07-09-2019, 06:46 PM
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Naw, man. It's gotta have grits.
The grits can be in a bowl on the side, with lots of pepper and a big pat of butter. By having both biscuits and grits on the flag, we can pay homage to the coming-together of English and Native American cultural traditions. And the fried chicken pays tribute to the Scottish and African traditions that honed the cuisine into the wonderful delight that it is.

And we should also have a pitcher of tea glimmering with sugar crystals. It shall symbolize the sweetness of southern hospitality.
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Old 07-09-2019, 06:50 PM
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I mean, their name is Confederate Railroad. What the hell could they be supporting if not the Confederacy? They can't argue it means "southern pride" when the real meaning is in their flipping name.

That said, Shenandoah does have a decent argument here, IMO: if they didn't support the symbol, why the fuck did they hire them in the first place? Even if they could convince them not to use the logo, it's in their fucking name.

Sure, decrying "political correctness" over it is still stupid. But whoever hired the band in the first place has some explaining to do, IMO.

Last edited by BigT; 07-09-2019 at 06:51 PM.
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Old 07-09-2019, 06:58 PM
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Thing is, the confederate battle flag displayed by the current generation of ignorant bigoted pieces of crap wasn't ever even an official symbol of the confederacy. It was used by the army of northern Virginia, and some other units, and after Appomattox was gone, destined to be forgotten, once the treason committed in order to spread the crime of slavery throughout the hemisphere failed, miserably and dishonorably, as it deserved. It came back at the same time as municipal sculptures honoring treason and bigotry began to spring up all over the south, as a silent warning to black Americans not to try to exercise the 13th and 14th amendment rights that had just begun to be enforced by the federal government through the civil rights act, the voting rights act, various Supreme Court decisions, and other measures. There is no sentient person who displays this thing without endorsing both its original and secondary meanings.

Part of remembering your history is having enough moral sense to recognize which parts to celebrate, and which parts to be ashamed of.
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Old 07-09-2019, 07:42 PM
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Racism isn’t the only problem with the Confederate flag.

Slavery was an atrocity. The Civil War itself was an atrocity. Men engaged in the wholesale butchery of each other while their wives and children remained at home to defend against soldiers, raiders and outlaws. Some were killed. A lot of them starved. That brutality laid waste to the entire false narrative of Southern culture as a civilized place of family values.

The Confederate flag contains a subtextual threat against our government and civilized society. It says —- remember, if we can’t win by playing fair, we will do whatever it takes to get our way, even if it kills us all in the process. The Confederate flag is a celebration of two atrocities, slavery and the Civil War itself. It’s a dog whistle encouraging right wing insurrection.

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 07-09-2019 at 07:43 PM.
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Old 07-09-2019, 07:55 PM
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They have had backlash over the name before--note this LA Times article from 1994.On a positive note, this banning will surely lead to more exposure, song and merchandise sales, and new fans for the band than that concert ever would have. So congrats, guys! Enjoy those Yankee tears!



(BTW, they recently played with The Kentucky Headhunters, who clearly are endorsing murder and the ritual mutulation of corpses.)
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Old 07-09-2019, 08:13 PM
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I've said before that if you really wanted to celebrate "Southern heritage", you'd put a statue of a bowl of grits in front of the courthouse. The South really can be genuinely proud of their cuisine: All of the best food in North America comes from the South. Music is another thing they can be proud of: They don't have the same monopoly on music that they have on food (plenty of good music came from Detroit and Chicago and Seattle, too), but there's still some very good Southern music. Put a statue of a banjo and a fiddle up next to the statue of grits.

The Civil War, however, is not something to be proud of. And yet, it's the only piece of "Southern heritage" that a lot of these folks seem to care about.
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Old 07-09-2019, 08:38 PM
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They have had backlash over the name before--note this LA Times article from 1994.On a positive note, this banning will surely lead to more exposure, song and merchandise sales, and new fans for the band than that concert ever would have. So congrats, guys! Enjoy those Yankee tears!
Who cares? The point isn't to financially ruin the band, the point is to be able to go the fair without seeing a bunch of racist symbols everywhere.
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Old 07-09-2019, 08:46 PM
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The Confederate flag is a celebration of two atrocities, slavery and the Civil War itself. Itís a dog whistle encouraging right wing insurrection.

Three atrocities. The third one was the state governments' fight against civil rights. And that's when the damn thing was resurrected, during the civil rights era, as a big "fuck you" to minorities, especially Blacks.
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Old 07-09-2019, 09:00 PM
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The Confederate flag is a racist symbol, anyone who flies it is inconsiderate at best, racist at worst. [...]

All my posts centered around the feasibility of creating a symbol that stands, in 2019, for appreciation for the slow southern way of life vs. the stereotypical hectic nature of big city life, one that all races could get behind- 'don't hate each other, hate the Yankees'.
But the Southern cultural trope of "hating the Yankees" also derives from the history of slavery and racism. The reason that Southerners started "hating the Yankees" in the first place was because of the threat posed by Northerners' opposition to the Southern "way of life" based on slavery.

Pretty much everything that's consciously antagonistic/xenophobic/defiant in Southern culture is a holdover from their fatal choice to double down on defending the enslavement of black people.
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Old 07-09-2019, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by bobot View Post
Misogynistic, can't argue that the blues CAN BE misogynistic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XagQ3owbBEM

But racist? Please expound on this.
(Or be called terrible names, this is The Pit.)
Stereotypes.
  #48  
Old 07-09-2019, 09:52 PM
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I heard also cancelled from the gig:

Richard Spencer Blues Explosion
Tanya Tucker Carlson
Alex Jesus Jones
Steve King Crimson
"Rush" Limbaugh
Ste(phen) Miller
  #49  
Old 07-09-2019, 10:11 PM
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I'd like to thank Snowboarder Bo for starting this thread--because of it I've had an enjoyable time revisiting classic early 90s songs by Confederate Railroad (and ones by Shenandoah), some of which I haven't thought about in years.

Best of luck with your new venue, guys!
  #50  
Old 07-09-2019, 10:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monstro View Post
A flag showing a plate of fried chicken and biscuits. I would be quite proud to wave that flag.
Waitwaitwaitwait, make up y'all's collective mind. Wasn't fried chicken also racist?
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