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  #101  
Old 05-09-2019, 08:48 AM
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  #102  
Old 05-09-2019, 09:24 AM
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This has literally NOTHING to do with miscarriages. The woman didn't even have a miscarriage, she had a live birth:
So they charged her for giving live birth, then?
  #103  
Old 05-09-2019, 09:29 AM
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IANAL either, but let's start with this argument because it's been repeated several times and I think it's obviously wrong. Georgia doesn't have a law against leaving the state to murder a person. If you traveled to New York with a two-year-old in tow, which every state in the Union recognizes as a person, and then murdered that two-year-old in New York, Georgia could not prosecute you for the murder. New York would have to do that. That same logic would apply to an unborn child, except that New York would not prosecute you for it.
Georgia defines the fetus as a person. My friend Bob who lives in Florida is also a person.

My wife and I conspire in Georgia (draw up plans, get the gun, etc.) to travel to Florida to kill Bob. I'm still not a lawyer, but it seems likely that Georgia could prosecute us for conspiracy to commit murder.

It seems further likely that Georgia could treat our plans to travel to Florida to get an abortion exactly the same way.
  #104  
Old 05-09-2019, 09:52 AM
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Even ectopic pregnancies may not be terminated, even though it would result in the deaths of both the mother and the fetus. Defenders of the law claim that all you have to do is have surgery to remove the fetus from the fallopian tube and implant it into the uterus. Medical professionals say this is not a thing.

The law also makes it illegal to travel to another jurisdiction to have an abortion, and anyone who facilitates the transfer of the mother to another jurisdiction to have an abortion can also be charged.
I don't want to hijack, but I want to single out this post with a personal story and how I went from "on the fence" to "pro-choice."

This was about 20 years ago in Texas.

I dated a woman for years, and she was born when her parents were 16 (dad) and 15 (mom). We were in college, and her parents were still married but in their mid to late 30s and trying to have children again, at an appropriate time so that they could afford and be the mature, stable parents that my girlfriend never had. They were good people, just fucked up when they were young and had her.

So the mother gets pregnant finally. Everyone is excited. Her pregnancy ends up being ectopic, and she gets rushed to the hospital when she falls over in pain. We had no idea what was wrong. We all start driving to the hospital. The first (small townish) hospital has a doctor that refuses the DNC or whatever because there is some policy that lets the doctor refuse the procedure on moral grounds. By the time me and the girlfriend get there, the nurses (male and female) are screaming that her mom is going to die because she is about to rupture. Her dad is having a panic attack. The nurses load her up into another ambulance and send her to fucking Parkland in Dallas. I follow the ambulance in the car with her dad and it seemed to take forever to get there.

What we didn't know is that she was going into shock in the ambulance and almost died. By the time we pull up, I leave my car in the ambulance lane with the keys in it and we rush into the hospital. They rush her passed everyone in the hall behind the flappy doors.

We waited. When the doctor came out, he told us that she almost died and they weren't sure she would make it through the night. They had to do an entire hysterectomy because she did rupture on the way and they weren't really sure how she survived the ambulance ride. She made it, but she wasn't ever the same. Her dad never was the same because he thought somehow he caused it. She never did get to have the children she wanted.

Some dickhead piece of shit asshole doctor decided FOR HER that she would die. Or at the very least never be able to have the children they desperately wanted. They never got the chance to be the good parents I knew they would have been.


I gotta walk away now and smoke a cig or something. Each time I think about that situation I get filled with a very unhealthy rage. I watched three people get their whole world ripped away that day. It fucking haunts me.

These Georgia fucks don't seem to think about things like this.

Sorry for the cuss words.
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  #105  
Old 05-09-2019, 10:45 AM
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Georgia defines the fetus as a person. My friend Bob who lives in Florida is also a person.

My wife and I conspire in Georgia (draw up plans, get the gun, etc.) to travel to Florida to kill Bob. I'm still not a lawyer, but it seems likely that Georgia could prosecute us for conspiracy to commit murder.

It seems further likely that Georgia could treat our plans to travel to Florida to get an abortion exactly the same way.
The antiaborts I mentioned above will critize the people who transport the women to the clinic and even the men who go in with them for "committing murder."

And when I ask them about pregnancy from rape, they say "The baby didn't do anything wrong." I guess they think tying a woman to her rapist for the rest of her life is not wrong.
  #106  
Old 05-09-2019, 11:01 AM
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I don't want to hijack, but I want to single out this post with a personal story and how I went from "on the fence" to "pro-choice."

This was about 20 years ago in Texas.

I dated a woman for years, and she was born when her parents were 16 (dad) and 15 (mom). We were in college, and her parents were still married but in their mid to late 30s and trying to have children again, at an appropriate time so that they could afford and be the mature, stable parents that my girlfriend never had. They were good people, just fucked up when they were young and had her.

So the mother gets pregnant finally. Everyone is excited. Her pregnancy ends up being ectopic, and she gets rushed to the hospital when she falls over in pain. We had no idea what was wrong. We all start driving to the hospital. The first (small townish) hospital has a doctor that refuses the DNC or whatever because there is some policy that lets the doctor refuse the procedure on moral grounds. By the time me and the girlfriend get there, the nurses (male and female) are screaming that her mom is going to die because she is about to rupture. Her dad is having a panic attack. The nurses load her up into another ambulance and send her to fucking Parkland in Dallas. I follow the ambulance in the car with her dad and it seemed to take forever to get there.

What we didn't know is that she was going into shock in the ambulance and almost died. By the time we pull up, I leave my car in the ambulance lane with the keys in it and we rush into the hospital. They rush her passed everyone in the hall behind the flappy doors.

We waited. When the doctor came out, he told us that she almost died and they weren't sure she would make it through the night. They had to do an entire hysterectomy because she did rupture on the way and they weren't really sure how she survived the ambulance ride. She made it, but she wasn't ever the same. Her dad never was the same because he thought somehow he caused it. She never did get to have the children she wanted.

Some dickhead piece of shit asshole doctor decided FOR HER that she would die. Or at the very least never be able to have the children they desperately wanted. They never got the chance to be the good parents I knew they would have been.


I gotta walk away now and smoke a cig or something. Each time I think about that situation I get filled with a very unhealthy rage. I watched three people get their whole world ripped away that day. It fucking haunts me.

These Georgia fucks don't seem to think about things like this.

Sorry for the cuss words.
Thanks for sharing. I hope it's that few "pro-life" people recognize how many monstrous things like this that their advocacy can lead to, rather than that they recognize it and just don't care. I know the latter is true for some -- so many have made it clear, again and again, that they really just don't value women as fully human beings. But hopefully there are lots more who just need to be educated to recognize how important this freedom of bodily control really is.
  #107  
Old 05-09-2019, 11:14 AM
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She did not "miscarry". She had a live birth. It's in the article. I quoted that bit of the article.
She went into labor well before her fetus was independently viable. She miscarried.

I suppose we could break out the dictionary cites at this stage, but what's the point, really?

So, how do you feel about "stand your ground" laws? Should they apply to women?
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  #108  
Old 05-09-2019, 11:20 AM
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So they charged her for giving live birth, then?
I don't know why they charged her for murder, but I do know that she didn't have a miscarriage, she had a live birth, and so nothing in this story is relevant to asahi's fear about women "almost certainly" being jailed for having miscarriages in Georgia. Do you too now understand that the story has nothing to do with miscarriages?
  #109  
Old 05-09-2019, 11:23 AM
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So, how do you feel about "stand your ground" laws? Should they apply to women?
"Officer, I was well within my rights -- this person wouldn't leave my body and was taking my body's resources without my permission."
  #110  
Old 05-09-2019, 11:30 AM
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Interesting. If a woman was pregnant by a man and she did not want the baby but he did, he could probably get away with kidnapping her and hold her hostage until she gives birth.

BUT, if he told her to leave him alone and never contact him again and she broke into his house, he could "stand his ground" and kill her and the unborn "baby." And get away with it.

Is that fucked up or what?
  #111  
Old 05-09-2019, 11:35 AM
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She went into labor well before her fetus was independently viable. She miscarried.

I suppose we could break out the dictionary cites at this stage, but what's the point, really?...
No, she didn't miscarry. It's not a miscarriage if the baby is born alive. It's a live birth, which in the is case sadly was followed shortly by a neonatal death. Here are the actual definitions for such terms if you're interested. The point is to fight your ignorance on this matter.

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... So, how do you feel about "stand your ground" laws? Should they apply to women?
Stand your ground laws DO apply to women. They don't, however, have much relevance in a discussion around abortion laws, particularly since those laws already allow for an exception in the case that the woman's life is in danger.
  #112  
Old 05-09-2019, 11:47 AM
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"Officer, I was well within my rights -- this person wouldn't leave my body and was taking my body's resources without my permission."
I honestly can't think of a good reason to argue with her.

I'm also a tad curious about the rape exception. Hypothetically, what if a woman walks into a police station and relates the following:

"I just found out I'm pregnant. I have no recollection of having consenting sex in the last two months. I vaguely recall going to a bar about two months ago, but I can't remember where exactly. I think I may have been roofied or just really drunk and I think I was raped. I don't remember anything else."

Is that enough of a police report to get an abortion? If not, what is?
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  #113  
Old 05-09-2019, 11:53 AM
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Interesting. If a woman was pregnant by a man and she did not want the baby but he did, he could probably get away with kidnapping her and hold her hostage until she gives birth.

BUT, if he told her to leave him alone and never contact him again and she broke into his house, he could "stand his ground" and kill her and the unborn "baby." And get away with it.

Is that fucked up or what?
What world do you live in where kidnapping and holding someone hostage is legal?

Do you think it should be legal to break into someone's home and try to harm or murder them if you are carrying their child?
  #114  
Old 05-09-2019, 11:54 AM
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She went into labor well before her fetus was independently viable. She miscarried.

I suppose we could break out the dictionary cites at this stage, but what's the point, really?

So, how do you feel about "stand your ground" laws? Should they apply to women?
If only there was a word that meant intentionally killing a fetus in the womb. Then if we had that word we could decide whether an anti-abortion bill would cover it.
  #115  
Old 05-09-2019, 11:56 AM
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Perhaps you could explain how an embryo/fetus/baby can be considered a natural person ONLY if it was conceived through consensual sex by too people who are not too closely related to marry each other. If rape or incest results in a pregnancy, that embryo/fetus/baby is not a natural person?

This isn't a gotcha. I think you thought you answered my question, but you did not. I didn't ask if you thought this law was better than the status quo ante. I assumed you did. And it does not mean you oppose the law entirely if you don't approve of one part of it. I've noted many times when others have criticized you for sidestepping questions. I'm giving you a chance to avoid doing so here.
An embryo/fetus/baby's legal status can change / be different. I guess I just don't see the conflict here that maybe you do. If this law is allowed to take effect, then in Georgia it will generally be considered a person, but if the same mother with the same fetus cross the state line into Florida, it's no longer, legally, a natural person (at least in its present jurisdiction). Nothing about the nature of the embryo/fetus/baby changed, just it's legal status. Same thing with the exception for rape / incest. It's not that the nature of the embryo/fetus/baby is different, just that it's legal status is. I hope that helps. Feel free to ask any follow-up questions you wish.
  #116  
Old 05-09-2019, 11:57 AM
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"Officer, I was well within my rights -- this person wouldn't leave my body and was taking my body's resources without my permission."
Stand your ground laws only apply if the person is being threatened. So in your scenario if the fetus is pointing a gun at the mother or is advancing with a knife then it could be legally aborted.
  #117  
Old 05-09-2019, 11:58 AM
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What world do you live in where kidnapping and holding someone hostage is legal?
If you were trying to keep them from killing your "baby" I doubt the state would press charges. If someone is threatening your child, I bet you could harm or kill them without much legal action being taken.

Quote:
Do you think it should be legal to break into someone's home and try to harm or murder them if you are carrying their child?
Where did I say the man would be "harmed or murdered"? But if the woman was just to get him to accept his responsibility as a father and he told her to leave and she kept arguing, so he murders her, he could claim he thought he was being threatened, which is a good reason to kill her (and his unborn "baby.")
  #118  
Old 05-09-2019, 11:59 AM
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I always ask the anti-abortion folks I talk to if they would like to go back to the world like it was before abortion was legal. When men could beat their wives and children, use "I couldn't help myself" as an excuse for rape, sexually harass women, fire a pregnant single woman, yada, yada, yada. So far, nobody has answered yes.
So anti-abortion folks are only against abortion and are not advocating for an agenda you made up in your head?
Probably not an epiphany to most folks.
  #119  
Old 05-09-2019, 12:00 PM
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I don't know why they charged her for murder, but I do know that she didn't have a miscarriage, she had a live birth, and so nothing in this story is relevant to asahi's fear about women "almost certainly" being jailed for having miscarriages in Georgia. Do you too now understand that the story has nothing to do with miscarriages?
When I google up miscarriage the first definition I get is:
Quote:
the expulsion of a fetus from the womb before it is able to survive independently, especially spontaneously or as the result of accident.
That's exactly what happened in the case - fetus was expelled, it died (as most ~5 months births do, because they can't survive independently) and that's exactly why it's a miscarriage, and that's exactly why you're wrong.

Last edited by HMS Irruncible; 05-09-2019 at 12:01 PM.
  #120  
Old 05-09-2019, 12:04 PM
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No, she didn't miscarry. It's not a miscarriage if the baby is born alive. It's a live birth, which in the is case sadly was followed shortly by a neonatal death. Here are the actual definitions for such terms if you're interested. The point is to fight your ignorance on this matter.
From your cite, the definition of miscarry can vary by state. Georgia doesn't mention the term at all, so I see no reason I have to stop using it.
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Stand your ground laws DO apply to women. They don't, however, have much relevance in a discussion around abortion laws, particularly since those laws already allow for an exception in the case that the woman's life is in danger.
Do stand-your-ground laws (generally, or just in Georgia, as you wish) require a specific threat of death or does a reasonably perceived threat of injury count? Pregnancy can be pretty injurious, I'm given to understand. I gotta figure if you walked up to Johnny Guntoter and said "I'm gonna enter your abdomen and slowly stretch out," Johnny could plausibly view that as less-than-desirable. Does he have to retreat, though? How much do I have to stretch his abdomen before Johnny gets to decline?
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  #121  
Old 05-09-2019, 12:06 PM
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Just for clarification-Where in the bill are rape and/or the age of the pregnant woman brought up?
  #122  
Old 05-09-2019, 12:13 PM
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Do stand-your-ground laws (generally, or just in Georgia, as you wish) require a specific threat of death or does a reasonably perceived threat of injury count? Pregnancy can be pretty injurious, I'm given to understand. I gotta figure if you walked up to Johnny Guntoter and said "I'm gonna enter your abdomen and slowly stretch out," Johnny could plausibly view that as less-than-desirable. Does he have to retreat, though? How much do I have to stretch his abdomen before Johnny gets to decline?
Reasonably perceived threat. Here is how I learned it:

An anti-abort woman grabbed my right hand. As you may know, I suffered an injury to my left hand a while back, and my right hand is my only good hand. And the state considers me physically handicapped. So I pushed her into a building to get her to let go, whereupon she spit on me. I gave her a few chosen words, and she called the cops.

The cops came, I crossed the street, they talked to her and then came to talk to me. I told them what happened, and explained about my right hand. She admitted grabbing it, but claimed she tripped and grabbed me to get her balance.

The cops refused to file a report, telling her I had a good defense if it went to court. They told me I could file a charge of assault, but I didn't.
  #123  
Old 05-09-2019, 12:35 PM
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Per Trump and many of his supporters, just men, quite obviously. From pussy grabbing to jailing women for doing certain things to their bodies, it's quite clear how this administration and many of its supporters view women. They're okay with women not being in control of their bodies. This is what they want.
I bolded "pussy grabbing" because there couldn't be a more appropriate example to show just how little regard Trump supporters have for vulnerable women. I emphasize vulnerable women because I realize there are many women who support Trump, presumably doing so precisely because they don't share that same sense of vulnerability and believe that none of that awful shit we liberals whine about - things like being sexually assaulted or bleeding to death during a pregnancy - could ever happen to them. And they'll even tell you that 'Well if all those things do happen, well I guess it's all a part of God's plan."
  #124  
Old 05-09-2019, 12:36 PM
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HD, you have a penis, right?

I ask this because I am lead to believe that you are male based on the writings here.

If you have a penis, that generally means that you won't be pregnant anytime soon, so you won't be faced with the decision to have an abortion or not. (I'm reaching back to my elementary school education, so if I'm wrong, please correct me.) Since you won't ever have one as far as I can tell, why do you have such an aversion to what other people do with their bodies?

I'm really not that smart, I'll be honest. But I read the law, and I'm not sure where it says that all Georgia abortions will be carried out in HD's living room. I just don't get why you care so much. I guess you could say that you are "pro baby" or whatever, but I am too. I really get uneasy around the idea of abortion, but (its a big but), I am never ever ever going to be pregnant. I feel like I don't really have a say, and even if I do have a say, its a really small say. I have a penis too.

But then again, I never understood why straight people gave such a big damn about gay marriage. I'm a straight dude. I won't ever be in a gay marriage as far as I can tell. I mean I tried out a straight marriage and I'm really happy with it. I'm straight and that works out pretty well, but if I was a gay dude, I would be pretty pissed if I couldn't get married because some dickhead who was straight wouldn't allow it.

I can't help but frame my view on abortion like gay marriage. I don't think I should have a say in what other people do with their bodies. I can understand the sentiment with wanting fewer abortions to happen, but hey, I won't ever have one nor will any other penis having dude in the real world.

I'm not trying to pick on you HD, I just don't get your motivations or the reasoning you have on this one. I think we would probably get along in the real world just fine.

Having a man tell a woman what she can do with her bodies just reminds me of growing up on the farm, and telling female animals what they were going to do with their bodies.

CAVEAT: I did give an abortion to a man once, in a video game. I had to give Stan's dad Randy an abortion to beat a level on South Park's Stick of Truth. I guess it was a success?
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  #125  
Old 05-09-2019, 12:43 PM
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Reasonably perceived threat. Here is how I learned it:

An anti-abort woman grabbed my right hand. As you may know, I suffered an injury to my left hand a while back, and my right hand is my only good hand. And the state considers me physically handicapped. So I pushed her into a building to get her to let go, whereupon she spit on me. I gave her a few chosen words, and she called the cops.

The cops came, I crossed the street, they talked to her and then came to talk to me. I told them what happened, and explained about my right hand. She admitted grabbing it, but claimed she tripped and grabbed me to get her balance.

The cops refused to file a report, telling her I had a good defense if it went to court. They told me I could file a charge of assault, but I didn't.
LOL! She started it but she ends up calling the cops when she can't finish.

Typical.
  #126  
Old 05-09-2019, 12:49 PM
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Stand your ground laws only apply if the person is being threatened. So in your scenario if the fetus is pointing a gun at the mother or is advancing with a knife then it could be legally aborted.
Threatened with a weapon? Do stand your ground laws not apply if the threatening person is unarmed but may harm you nonetheless?

ETA I live in a state with a duty to retreat, and I have no idea how that may work in this instance. Something inside my body to threatening to hospitalize me! I must get away from the threat!

Last edited by raventhief; 05-09-2019 at 12:51 PM.
  #127  
Old 05-09-2019, 12:51 PM
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LOL! She started it but she ends up calling the cops when she can't finish.

Typical.
Yes. She assaults me and when I defend my only good hand, she spits on me. And then tells the cop I called her "some bad names."

She got off easy. Legally I could have thrown her under the nearest passing bus and the most I would have gotten is probation.
  #128  
Old 05-09-2019, 12:57 PM
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Threatened with a weapon?
News to me, too. I thought one of the arguments for concealed carry was that a 110-pound woman might have a chance to defend herself against a 250-pound man who could certainly injure her even without a weapon.
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  #129  
Old 05-09-2019, 12:58 PM
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People IRL don't generally engage in the sort of extreme hyperbole you have here. It's not the restrictions that's a laughing matter, it's your post.
Still avoiding with the bullshit. Can't say as I blame you. If bullshit is all you got, lead with it. My point stands.

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Some day I hope I find you in a thread on gun control so I can quote your words back to you.
You'll try. Let me save us both some time. Different things are different. Protection of women's rights contribute to a better society. Protection of gun rights contribute to social decline. If you need cites, you're willfully not paying attention.
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  #130  
Old 05-09-2019, 01:05 PM
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Looking over a list of pregnancy symptoms, I gotta say that somebody who threatened to do that to ME is gonna get the stink-eye and if there's a gun in reach, my hand's going for it. Seriously, what kind of sick masochistic freak would put up with this from anyone for months and then form a lifelong fixation on them afterward like some kind of hopped-up Stockholm-syndrome victim? It's sick, I tell you, sick!



By the way, this Sunday is Mother's Day. Just a reminder.
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  #131  
Old 05-09-2019, 01:09 PM
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To quote the anti-aborts: GOD chose you to be a mother. GOD gave the baby permission to use your body. You are going to answer to GOD if you murder your baby.
  #132  
Old 05-09-2019, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by aldiboronti View Post
..

This idiotic law, as the article goes on to state, may have unintended consequences. If fetuses have legal personhood then they are entitled to due process. I look forward to thousands of Habeas Corpus suits for the thousands of fetuses illegally imprisoned across the state. The law defies belief. But will the Supreme Court strike it down? I'd like to think so but I'm not so sure it will.
I don't think that is a problem as there are mothers with their babies/small children already in prison living with them. Some prisons even have play parks for that.

The things I can think of which would be unintended consequences is that the mother should be able to drive in the HOV lane and get another tax deduction - both positions I support.

May be some negative consequences like when only a limited number of people are allowed, well that person is now counted as 2, such as on hiking permits and legal limits to occupancy.

Also i do feel like the banning of abortion is also tied into restricting immigration. They need to be done together so we have replacement/entry level workers as society, and those unwanted babies, age.
  #133  
Old 05-09-2019, 01:19 PM
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She went into labor well before her fetus was independently viable. She miscarried.

I suppose we could break out the dictionary cites at this stage, but what's the point, really?

So, how do you feel about "stand your ground" laws? Should they apply to women?
Good question. Could the woman claim the baby is trying to kill her and therefore her abortion falls under the stand your ground law?
  #134  
Old 05-09-2019, 01:23 PM
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https://www.al.com/news/2019/05/alab...next-week.html

Alabama's Senate apparently just stripped the rape exception from its bill.

I mean, we wouldn't want these sick f*ckers to have any compassion now, would we?
  #135  
Old 05-09-2019, 01:23 PM
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If you have a penis, that generally means that you won't be pregnant anytime soon, so you won't be faced with the decision to have an abortion or not. (I'm reaching back to my elementary school education, so if I'm wrong, please correct me.) Since you won't ever have one as far as I can tell, why do you have such an aversion to what other people do with their bodies?
I am not HurricaneDitka, but if I may add in my two pennies, the reaction of most pro-lifers to being told that "If someone else has an abortion, it's none of your business. Just don't abort yours." is akin to a child-welfare advocate being told, "If someone else abuses their kids, it's none of your business. Just don't abuse yours." It immediately elicits a reaction of no, I am not going to just stand on the sidelines while this sort of thing is happening.

Whether abortion is murder or not is a separate philosophical question. But if that's what the premise is, (in the pro-lifer's mind,) then the logic is technically sound - you can't say that one should not intervene just because oneself is not affected. Pro-lifers see that as Holocaust logic; that just because the Holocaust wasn't happening in Allied nations didn't mean Allies shouldn't intervene.

Another argument that pro-choicers fail to understand why pro-lifers don't buy is the "If we make abortion illegal, then many women will die in illegal unsafe abortions" argument. That doesn't win over (most) pro-lifers because the math does not add up. If 1 million legal abortions are prevented, but 7,000 women die yearly in illegal back-alley abortions, then from pro-life math logic, that equates a net gain of 993,000 lives saved (assuming that the fetus is a life just like the mother is a life.) One can say that that logic is abhorrent, but from a mathematical standpoint, it's sound.
  #136  
Old 05-09-2019, 01:31 PM
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https://www.al.com/news/2019/05/alab...next-week.html

Alabama's Senate apparently just stripped the rape exception from its bill.

I mean, we wouldn't want these sick f*ckers to have any compassion now, would we?
If you still support the Alabama bill now that there are no rape or incest exceptions, please speak up and let us know.
  #137  
Old 05-09-2019, 01:33 PM
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I am not HurricaneDitka, but if I may add in my two pennies, the reaction of most pro-lifers to being told that "If someone else has an abortion, it's none of your business. Just don't abort yours." is akin to a child-welfare advocate being told, "If someone else abuses their kids, it's none of your business. Just don't abuse yours." It immediately elicits a reaction of no, I am not going to just stand on the sidelines while this sort of thing is happening.

Whether abortion is murder or not is a separate philosophical question. But if that's what the premise is, (in the pro-lifer's mind,) then the logic is technically sound - you can't say that one should not intervene just because oneself is not affected. Pro-lifers see that as Holocaust logic; that just because the Holocaust wasn't happening in Allied nations didn't mean Allies shouldn't intervene.

Another argument that pro-choicers fail to understand why pro-lifers don't buy is the "If we make abortion illegal, then many women will die in illegal unsafe abortions" argument. That doesn't win over (most) pro-lifers because the math does not add up. If 1 million legal abortions are prevented, but 7,000 women die yearly in illegal back-alley abortions, then from pro-life math logic, that equates a net gain of 993,000 lives saved (assuming that the fetus is a life just like the mother is a life.) One can say that that logic is abhorrent, but from a mathematical standpoint, it's sound.
There is no talking with the religious zealots - I don't care whether I persuade them or not. I'm more interested in getting everyone else to understand what life will be like the longer these people stay in power. If you want to live in a free society, then you should be afraid of people who want to control women's bodies. Chances are, that's not all they want to control.
  #138  
Old 05-09-2019, 01:35 PM
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If you still support the Alabama bill now that there are no rape or incest exceptions, please speak up and let us know.
I don't know why you think I would.
  #139  
Old 05-09-2019, 01:38 PM
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I don't know why you think I would.
Not addressed to you personally.
  #140  
Old 05-09-2019, 01:52 PM
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Just for clarification-Where in the bill are rape and/or the age of the pregnant woman brought up?
It's in Section 4, part 5 (b). Leaving out the language the new law strikes from the old one:

Quote:
No abortion is authorized or shall be performed if the probable gestational age of the an unborn child has been determined in accordance with Code Section 31-9B-2 to have a detectable human heartbeat except when:
...
5 (b)(2) The probable gestational age of the unborn child is 20 weeks or less and the pregnancy is the result of rape or incest in which an official police report has been filed alleging the offense of rape or incest.
There is nothing regarding the age of the pregnant female. (Sorry, can't call an 11-year-old kid a "woman" in this case.)

Also note this applies only to females who report the assault to the cops. So a woman is raped by a popular college football player and too scared of possible repercussions to report it to the cops? Yeah, she's SOL.
  #141  
Old 05-09-2019, 01:53 PM
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I am not HurricaneDitka, but if I may add in my two pennies, the reaction of most pro-lifers to being told that "If someone else has an abortion, it's none of your business. Just don't abort yours." is akin to a child-welfare advocate being told, "If someone else abuses their kids, it's none of your business. Just don't abuse yours." It immediately elicits a reaction of no, I am not going to just stand on the sidelines while this sort of thing is happening.

Whether abortion is murder or not is a separate philosophical question. But if that's what the premise is, (in the pro-lifer's mind,) then the logic is technically sound - you can't say that one should not intervene just because oneself is not affected. Pro-lifers see that as Holocaust logic; that just because the Holocaust wasn't happening in Allied nations didn't mean Allies shouldn't intervene.

Another argument that pro-choicers fail to understand why pro-lifers don't buy is the "If we make abortion illegal, then many women will die in illegal unsafe abortions" argument. That doesn't win over (most) pro-lifers because the math does not add up. If 1 million legal abortions are prevented, but 7,000 women die yearly in illegal back-alley abortions, then from pro-life math logic, that equates a net gain of 993,000 lives saved (assuming that the fetus is a life just like the mother is a life.) One can say that that logic is abhorrent, but from a mathematical standpoint, it's sound.
Thanks for taking the time to type that out. It helps me figure out whats going on in their head. I don't think I could agree with that, since we have specific laws in our country that are supposed to separate the belief in a Zeus looking guy that floats in the clouds that split himself in three parts, raping a virgin in the middle east to inseminate her with himself just to kill himself, for, uh, our benefit, from the laws of the land.

ETA: On retrospect, there seems a lot of the bible that is a little rapey.
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Last edited by Translucent Daydream; 05-09-2019 at 01:55 PM.
  #142  
Old 05-09-2019, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by nelliebly View Post
It's in Section 4, part 5 (b). Leaving out the language the new law strikes from the old one:



There is nothing regarding the age of the pregnant female. (Sorry, can't call an 11-year-old kid a "woman" in this case.)

Also note this applies only to females who report the assault to the cops. So a woman is raped by a popular college football player and too scared of possible repercussions to report it to the cops? Yeah, she's SOL.
Thank you.
  #143  
Old 05-09-2019, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by nelliebly View Post
It's in Section 4, part 5 (b). Leaving out the language the new law strikes from the old one:

There is nothing regarding the age of the pregnant female. (Sorry, can't call an 11-year-old kid a "woman" in this case.)

Also note this applies only to females who report the assault to the cops. So a woman is raped by a popular college football player and too scared of possible repercussions to report it to the cops? Yeah, she's SOL.
So, not surprisingly, this bill is utterly monstrous to victims of rape.
  #144  
Old 05-09-2019, 02:18 PM
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HD, you have a penis, right?

I ask this because I am lead to believe that you are male based on the writings here.

If you have a penis, that generally means that you won't be pregnant anytime soon, so you won't be faced with the decision to have an abortion or not. (I'm reaching back to my elementary school education, so if I'm wrong, please correct me.) Since you won't ever have one as far as I can tell, why do you have such an aversion to what other people do with their bodies?

I'm really not that smart, I'll be honest. But I read the law, and I'm not sure where it says that all Georgia abortions will be carried out in HD's living room. I just don't get why you care so much. I guess you could say that you are "pro baby" or whatever, but I am too. I really get uneasy around the idea of abortion, but (its a big but), I am never ever ever going to be pregnant. I feel like I don't really have a say, and even if I do have a say, its a really small say. I have a penis too.

But then again, I never understood why straight people gave such a big damn about gay marriage. I'm a straight dude. I won't ever be in a gay marriage as far as I can tell. I mean I tried out a straight marriage and I'm really happy with it. I'm straight and that works out pretty well, but if I was a gay dude, I would be pretty pissed if I couldn't get married because some dickhead who was straight wouldn't allow it.

I can't help but frame my view on abortion like gay marriage. I don't think I should have a say in what other people do with their bodies. I can understand the sentiment with wanting fewer abortions to happen, but hey, I won't ever have one nor will any other penis having dude in the real world.

I'm not trying to pick on you HD, I just don't get your motivations or the reasoning you have on this one. I think we would probably get along in the real world just fine.

Having a man tell a woman what she can do with her bodies just reminds me of growing up on the farm, and telling female animals what they were going to do with their bodies.

CAVEAT: I did give an abortion to a man once, in a video game. I had to give Stan's dad Randy an abortion to beat a level on South Park's Stick of Truth. I guess it was a success?
I'm a man, and my aversion to abortion is that an innocent life is being destroyed.

I'm not elderly, but I oppose elder abuse. I'm not a wife, but I oppose wife-beating. I'm not a child, but I oppose child abuse. I'm not a fetus, but I oppose the legalized terminating of those lives.
  #145  
Old 05-09-2019, 02:26 PM
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From your cite, the definition of miscarry can vary by state. Georgia doesn't mention the term at all, so I see no reason I have to stop using it. ...
Georgia mentions miscarriage in the law that is the subject of this thread. I already pointed out, it's on line 108:

Quote:
'Spontaneous abortion' means the naturally occurring death of an unborn child, including a miscarriage or stillbirth.
In asahi's story of the backseat delivery, the child was no longer "unborn". It was a born alive child. It died 30 minutes later, but for 30 minutes it was a living, breathing person. That story is not in any way, shape, or form, about a "miscarriage".


Quote:
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... Do stand-your-ground laws (generally, or just in Georgia, as you wish) require a specific threat of death or does a reasonably perceived threat of injury count? ...
Generally the use of lethal force, including in SYG cases, requires a reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm.
  #146  
Old 05-09-2019, 02:26 PM
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When veganism is the norm will you willingly give up eating meat because someone else’s beliefs say meat is murder?

Or will your opinion be they should live as vegans if they so choose and let you live as you believe?
  #147  
Old 05-09-2019, 02:31 PM
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Good question. Could the woman claim the baby is trying to kill her and therefore her abortion falls under the stand your ground law?
No, it's not a good point. It would require establishing the intent of the fetus. If you want to go down that route, go ahead I guess, but you'll be doing a lot of your opponent's work of establishing that it is indeed a person by doing so.
  #148  
Old 05-09-2019, 02:37 PM
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Why would intent matter? If some stranger is pointing a gun at me, does it matter (with regards to whether I can engage in deadly force) whether they're intending to kill me or whether they're doing it by accident? I'm pretty sure the law does not require ill intent to be established for self-defense, as long as the person in question has reasonable fear of bodily harm.

Based on the incredible damage pregnancy can do to women's bodies and health, then it's entirely possible that a woman might have legitimate and reasonable fear of harm to their body, health, and even life. The intent of the fetus doesn't matter at all, if we're using the same basis as for self-defense.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 05-09-2019 at 02:38 PM.
  #149  
Old 05-09-2019, 02:39 PM
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When I google up miscarriage the first definition I get is:

That's exactly what happened in the case - fetus was expelled, it died (as most ~5 months births do, because they can't survive independently) and that's exactly why it's a miscarriage, and that's exactly why you're wrong.
Despite the oh-so-authoritative nature of your first-thing-I-Googled methodology, the state of Georgia actually provides definitions for these sort of things. Let's see if you can match up which one describes the case asahi brought up:

Quote:
GEORGIA
Live birth defined:

‘‘Live birth’’ means the complete expulsion or extraction from its mother of a product of human conception, irrespective of the duration of pregnancy, which, after such expulsion or extraction, breathes, or shows any other evidence of life such as beating of the heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord, or definite movement of voluntary muscles, whether or not the umbilical cord has been cut or the placenta is attached. (Title 31-10-1 (9) enacted by Ga. L. 1982)

Fetal death defined:

‘‘Fetal death’’ means death prior to the complete expulsion or extraction from its mother of a product of human conception, irrespective of the duration of pregnancy; the death is indicated by the fact that after such expulsion or extraction the fetus does not breathe or show any other evidence of life such as beating of the heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord, or definite movement of voluntary muscles. (Title 31-10-1 (4) enacted by Ga. L. 1982)

‘‘Spontaneous fetal death’’ means the expulsion or extraction of a product of human conception resulting in other than a live birth and which is not an induced termination of pregnancy. (Title 31-10-1 (15) enacted by Ga. L. 1982)
  #150  
Old 05-09-2019, 02:39 PM
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Georgia mentions miscarriage in the law that is the subject of this thread. I already pointed out, it's on line 108:
Well, your quote says "miscarriage or stillbirth" (emphasis added) so a distinction is implicitly recognized, therefore "miscarriage" and "stillbirth" cannot be assumed to be synonymous, therefore the opposite of stillbirth ("live birth") cannot be assumed to be contradictory, and I stand by my usage.

Quote:
In asahi's story of the backseat delivery, the child was no longer "unborn". It was a born alive child. It died 30 minutes later, but for 30 minutes it was a living, breathing person. That story is not in any way, shape, or form, about a "miscarriage".
Well, if that's how you want to define miscarriage, have at it. I shan't be joining you in this.

Quote:
Generally the use of lethal force, including in SYG cases, requires a reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm.
So are you on board with applying it to pregnancy, then? That would be reasonably consistent, given the facts about pregnancy and the toll it can take. If someone threatened to do to Johnny Guntoter what a pregnancy can do to a woman, can he defend himself or does he just have to take it?
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