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  #1  
Old 08-22-2018, 04:44 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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"taco n*****s" - no warning issued, mods?

This post used the phrase "taco niggers". That seems like about as clear-cut a violation of the rule against hate speech as I have ever read here. I reported it, asking for a response, and have not heard anything back. Mods, a penny for your thoughts?

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 08-22-2018 at 04:45 PM.
  #2  
Old 08-22-2018, 04:46 PM
Procrustus Procrustus is online now
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You were the target of the insult, not the migrants.
  #3  
Old 08-22-2018, 04:53 PM
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That post is loaded with epithets. taco n___ is consistent with the rest of the post.
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Old 08-22-2018, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
This post used the phrase "taco niggers". That seems like about as clear-cut a violation of the rule against hate speech as I have ever read here. I reported it, asking for a response, and have not heard anything back. Mods, a penny for your thoughts?
Oh c'mon HD, this is a stretch even for you.
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Old 08-22-2018, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
This post used the phrase "taco niggers".
Post reported for hate speech.
  #6  
Old 08-22-2018, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
This post used the phrase "taco niggers". That seems like about as clear-cut a violation of the rule against hate speech as I have ever read here. I reported it, asking for a response, and have not heard anything back. Mods, a penny for your thoughts?
Another way the Board could raise funds.
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Old 08-22-2018, 05:10 PM
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Another way the Board could raise funds.
The Straight Dope Swear Jar?

  #8  
Old 08-22-2018, 05:11 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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Originally Posted by Procrustus View Post
You were the target of the insult, not the migrants.
Is that an exception to the rule? Can we use hate speech as long as we're insulting another poster? The "Revised Forum Rules for the BBQ Pit" say:

Quote:
No hate speech

If you say hateful and/or racist things, you may get warned or banned. Some slurs are likely to be viewed as hate speech when used as insults, some aren't. No, we aren't going to give you a list. Our goal is not to restrict any and all speech which could be viewed by someone as offensive, but simply keep a modicum of decency, even here.
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Originally Posted by Bullitt View Post
That post is loaded with epithets. taco n___ is consistent with the rest of the post.
What does that have to do with anything? If an entire post is laced with hate speech is it then exempt from moderation?
  #9  
Old 08-22-2018, 05:18 PM
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Hey Ditka, I'll own up to it and take the warning without a fight (if the mods even consider it worthy) AND apologize to you if you own up to, and explain/discuss your OKC bomber "wasn't entirely unreasonable" line in the pit with us.
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Old 08-22-2018, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
This post used the phrase "taco niggers". That seems like about as clear-cut a violation of the rule against hate speech as I have ever read here. I reported it, asking for a response, and have not heard anything back. Mods, a penny for your thoughts?
Context is everything. It wasn't hurled as an epithet. The word was used in a sentence describing the attitudes of people like you.
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Old 08-22-2018, 05:28 PM
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Ditka - since you're obviously reading the threads (and there are 2 open with your name on them), it would be swell if you would join in.
  #12  
Old 08-22-2018, 05:30 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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Hey Ditka, I'll own up to it and take the warning without a fight (if the mods even consider it worthy) AND apologize to you if you own up to, and explain/discuss your OKC bomber "wasn't entirely unreasonable" line in the pit with us.
I strive to not post in the Pit. I can't imagine anything productive coming out of such a thread, so I'll have to decline.

I have, at times, toyed with the idea of posting in the Pit, for example as an April Fool's joke or something. Maybe we should do it as some sort of pay-per-view special or something to raise money for the SDMB: "Limited time only, Ditka in the Pit" "He promises to read every post in the thread" "Only $9.99 to participate". I bet that would get some takers.

As an aside, if one day you'd like to have a civil discussion on the OKC topic, feel free to start one in another forum, or PM me.
  #13  
Old 08-22-2018, 05:34 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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Originally Posted by Sunny Daze View Post
Ditka - since you're obviously reading the threads (and there are 2 open with your name on them), it would be swell if you would join in.
I don't regularly read the Pit threads either. This one came to my attention because snfaulkner linked to it here in a reply to me.

This is probably getting off-topic for this thread, but I do wonder: how do you think the experience would be improved by my participation there?

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 08-22-2018 at 05:37 PM. Reason: removed a bit that's best left for another thread
  #14  
Old 08-22-2018, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
I don't regularly read the Pit threads either. This one came to my attention because snfaulkner linked to it here in a reply to me.

This is probably getting off-topic for this thread, but I do wonder: how do you think the experience would be improved by my participation there? I've long-considered it a bit like a safe space for those who lose arguments to me to retreat to and nurse their wounds. I haven't wanted to intrude.
Wait, you think you're winning arguments? Are you Charlie Sheen?
  #15  
Old 08-22-2018, 05:38 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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Wait, you think you're winning arguments? Are you Charlie Sheen?
Perhaps this discussion would be best conducted in another thread in another forum.
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Old 08-22-2018, 05:38 PM
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I always knew you read that thread, but I'm surprised you admit it so readily.
  #17  
Old 08-22-2018, 05:41 PM
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I always knew you read that thread, but I'm surprised you admit it so readily.
Perhaps you should re-read post #13.
  #18  
Old 08-22-2018, 05:44 PM
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Perhaps you should re-read post #13.
LOL. Of course. I definitely believe you.
  #19  
Old 08-22-2018, 05:48 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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LOL. Of course. I definitely believe you.
I don't care if you do / don't believe me, but where do you imagine I "admit[ted] it so readily"?

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 08-22-2018 at 05:50 PM.
  #20  
Old 08-22-2018, 05:54 PM
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I don't care if you do / don't believe me, but where do you imagine I "admit[ted] it so readily"?
Of course, you don't care, but you're oh so curious...
  #21  
Old 08-22-2018, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
I strive to not post in the Pit. I can't imagine anything productive coming out of such a thread, so I'll have to decline.

I have, at times, toyed with the idea of posting in the Pit, for example as an April Fool's joke or something. Maybe we should do it as some sort of pay-per-view special or something to raise money for the SDMB: "Limited time only, Ditka in the Pit" "He promises to read every post in the thread" "Only $9.99 to participate". I bet that would get some takers.

As an aside, if one day you'd like to have a civil discussion on the OKC topic, feel free to start one in another forum, or PM me.
Here you go. Please be as in-depth as you can. Thanks.
  #22  
Old 08-22-2018, 06:10 PM
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Did you not get my email? Here's what I wrote there:

I don't moderate the simple appearance of a racial slur. I moderate it for malicious usage against the group described by the slur.* Saying, "Nigger is a common slur against black people" is not going to trigger a warning. Saying, "Barrack Obama is a nigger," almost certainly would. There's obviously a lot of middle ground there, and some definite grey areas, but generally speaking, I would not moderate someone saying to another poster, "You're the sort of person who calls people niggers." That's an attack on a (perceived) racist, not an attack on a race, and as such, does not trigger the hate speech rule. snfaulker's post is of a kind with that - he's not calling Hispanics "taco niggers" himself, he's ascribing that attitude to you.

*That's actually a bit simplified - there's some usages that aren't directly aimed at a member of the group that would still draw a warning. Calling another poster a faggot, for example, regardless of whether the target is queer or not, or phrases like, "I Jewed the guy down and got a better deal." They're still examples of slurs being used to show antipathy towards a group, even if no actual member of the group in question is involved in the exchange. Again, though, in the post you reported, snfaulker's antipathy is clearly towards you and other people he perceives as racist, and not towards Hispanics.
  #23  
Old 08-22-2018, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip View Post
Post reported for hate speech.
Quote:
Originally Posted by snfaulkner View Post
Or maybe it was failure of you and your mormon militia white nationalist prepper racist assfucks who weren't man enough to go to the border with your cum crusted m4's to protect this great nation of ours from the invasion of taco niggers? You fucking smarmy fucktwat. You are just barely smart enough to sidestep the board's hate speech rules, but nobody, and I mean NObody is buying your God damn racist concern trollish bullshit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
This post used the phrase "taco niggers". That seems like about as clear-cut a violation of the rule against hate speech as I have ever read here. I reported it, asking for a response, and have not heard anything back. Mods, a penny for your thoughts?
...HurricaneDitka: both you and snfaulkner used the words taco n#$%$$ on these boards.

Should context be taken into account? If we ignore context, if we have zero tolerance, then why is your usage of the words materially different from snfaulkner's? Should you get a warning?

(Having said that: there is inconsistency on how the word is moderated: I remember a poster used the word in the same context as snfaulkner a few years ago in Great Debates and got suspended: I suspect the forum and the moderator make a difference, but some clarity would be good.)
  #24  
Old 08-22-2018, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
I don't regularly read the Pit threads either. This one came to my attention because snfaulkner linked to it here in a reply to me.

This is probably getting off-topic for this thread, but I do wonder: how do you think the experience would be improved by my participation there?
I understand why you might not see value in joining the multi-year general Pit thread. The other thread asked you a specific question about recent news. It would be good to have you answer that one. Perhaps a new thread could be started in GD.
  #25  
Old 08-22-2018, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
I don't regularly read the Pit threads either. This one came to my attention because snfaulkner linked to it here in a reply to me.

This is probably getting off-topic for this thread, but I do wonder: how do you think the experience would be improved by my participation there?
Only one way to find out!
  #26  
Old 08-22-2018, 07:00 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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Did you not get my email? ...
No, I didn't, so I really appreciate you chiming in here with clarification. Thanks.
  #27  
Old 08-22-2018, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
No, I didn't, so I really appreciate you chiming in here with clarification. Thanks.
Yeah, I think it's quite clear that the poster was saying "You, HD, are the kind of person who would think of Latinos as 'taco niggers'". He was not using that epithet against Latinos. We can argue as to whether he was being accurate or not, but he wasn't being racist and it was in the Pit, so seems like no rule was broken to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquet Bear
Having said that: there is inconsistency on how the word is moderated: I remember a poster used the word in the same context as snfaulkner a few years ago in Great Debates and got suspended: I suspect the forum and the moderator make a difference, but some clarity would be good.
That's a hugely horrific insult to be throwing around in GD. Just because you can do it in the Pit doesn't mean you can do it in GD.

Last edited by John Mace; 08-22-2018 at 07:13 PM.
  #28  
Old 08-22-2018, 07:26 PM
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That's a hugely horrific insult to be throwing around in GD. Just because you can do it in the Pit doesn't mean you can do it in GD.
...it wasn't used as an insult.
  #29  
Old 08-22-2018, 08:30 PM
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Could the phrase safely be used against me, inasmuch as I am Hispanic?
  #30  
Old 08-22-2018, 08:37 PM
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Just wanna say that before today, somehow I'd never before heard the term that is the subject of this thread. So, uh, thanks, I guess.
  #31  
Old 08-22-2018, 08:41 PM
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Just wanna say that before today, somehow I'd never before heard the term that is the subject of this thread. So, uh, thanks, I guess.
Honestly, I intended to say "taco-eating" but somehow my phone decided against me. I deferred to its judgement on the matter.
  #32  
Old 08-22-2018, 09:16 PM
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Wait a darn minute. I eat tacos! Hate Speech!!!!!!!
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  #33  
Old 08-22-2018, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
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Could the phrase safely be used against me, inasmuch as I am Hispanic?
Someone calling you a "taco nigger" would almost certainly draw a warning. Someone suggesting that you view other Hispanics as "taco niggers" would probably not.

Was this not clear in my previous post?
  #34  
Old 08-22-2018, 10:51 PM
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I'm sort of torn on this one. It seems that under this rule, I can say, "You seem like the kind of person who would...." and follow it up with hate speech, threats of legal action against the SDMB, threats of violence, etc. basically anything and get by with it.

I understand that it was in the Pit, but in these modern times with modern sensibilities, saying something to the effect of "You are the type of person who would call someone a nigger" goes beyond a basic insult to fighting words. Hell, people are losing their jobs by just using that word in reference to another conversation.
  #35  
Old 08-22-2018, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
I'm sort of torn on this one. It seems that under this rule, I can say, "You seem like the kind of person who would...." and follow it up with hate speech, threats of legal action against the SDMB, threats of violence, etc. basically anything and get by with it.

I understand that it was in the Pit, but in these modern times with modern sensibilities, saying something to the effect of "You are the type of person who would call someone a nigger" goes beyond a basic insult to fighting words. Hell, people are losing their jobs by just using that word in reference to another conversation.
I echo this question. Where XXXX is a slur,

Miller, you seem like the kind of person who is XXXX = warning.
Miller, you seem like the kind of person who thinks UltraVires is XXXX = no warning.

Is that the substance of this ruling?
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  #36  
Old 08-22-2018, 11:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bricker View Post
I echo this question. Where XXXX is a slur,

Miller, you seem like the kind of person who is XXXX = warning.
Miller, you seem like the kind of person who thinks UltraVires is XXXX = no warning.

Is that the substance of this ruling?
Is it really that hard to understand what he said?
  #37  
Old 08-23-2018, 01:17 AM
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(Nope, this has had far too much attention)
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  #38  
Old 08-23-2018, 01:30 AM
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Is it really that hard to understand what he said?
It's Bricker. C'mon, it's not that hard to understand what he's doing.
  #39  
Old 08-23-2018, 02:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquet Bear
I remember a poster used the word in the same context as snfaulkner...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquet Bear View Post
...it wasn't used as an insult.
Snfaulkener used it as an insult in the Pit, so if the poster used it "in the same context as snfaulkner", then it was an insult. If it wasn't an insult, then it wasn't used in the same context.

But maybe I'm missing something. Care to link to the post in question?

Last edited by John Mace; 08-23-2018 at 02:07 AM.
  #40  
Old 08-23-2018, 04:23 AM
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Quote:
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Snfaulkener used it as an insult in the Pit, so if the poster used it "in the same context as snfaulkner", then it was an insult. If it wasn't an insult, then it wasn't used in the same context.
...wrong context.

Quote:
But maybe I'm missing something. Care to link to the post in question?
https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...1&postcount=15

It wasn't used as an insult (IMHO of course) but to illustrate a point.

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...49&postcount=2

The (original) ruling: "The one with the repeated use of variations of the word 'nigger' would be enough to earn him a suspension in my eyes."

Context important in one ruling but context unimportant in another. That's all I'm pointing out.
  #41  
Old 08-23-2018, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Miller View Post
Saying, "Nigger is a common slur against black people" is not going to trigger a warning. Saying, "Barrack Obama is a nigger," almost certainly would. There's obviously a lot of middle ground there, and some definite grey areas, but generally speaking, I would not moderate someone saying to another poster, "You're the sort of person who calls people niggers." That's an attack on a (perceived) racist, not an attack on a race, and as such, does not trigger the hate speech rule. snfaulker's post is of a kind with that - he's not calling Hispanics "taco niggers" himself, he's ascribing that attitude to you.
So, addressed to a specific Doper, in the Pit, saying "you think of blacks who vote Democratic as niggers" is OK, correct? Since it is an attack on a (perceived) racist, and is not an attack on black people.

Regards,
Shodan
  #42  
Old 08-23-2018, 07:05 AM
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I strive to not post in the Pit. I can't imagine anything productive coming out of such a thread, so I'll have to decline.
Translation: You're punking out because you know that statement is indefensible.
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  #43  
Old 08-23-2018, 08:46 AM
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Translation: You're punking out because you know that statement is indefensible.
This post of yours might itself have been better-suited for the Pit than this forum, but if you're interested, I'm working on formulating a response to the GD thread on the topic. Check back there later.
  #44  
Old 08-23-2018, 09:13 AM
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Maybe TPTB could raise a few bucks by selling Junior Mod badges that could also be used as avatars.
  #45  
Old 08-23-2018, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
I don't regularly read the Pit threads either. This one came to my attention because snfaulkner linked to it here in a reply to me.
I get e-mails linked to places I don't want to be every day and I see links here to other threads I may not enjoy. If I follow them and am shocked or insulted I'm taking some of the blame myself. Yeah, snfaulkner played it but IMHO he did it damn well and within the rules. And as most Pit rants go I think his was both well written and amusing even though I disagree with everything it says.
  #46  
Old 08-23-2018, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bricker View Post
I echo this question. Where XXXX is a slur,

Miller, you seem like the kind of person who is XXXX = warning.
Miller, you seem like the kind of person who thinks UltraVires is XXXX = no warning.

Is that the substance of this ruling?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
So, addressed to a specific Doper, in the Pit, saying "you think of blacks who vote Democratic as niggers" is OK, correct? Since it is an attack on a (perceived) racist, and is not an attack on black people.

Regards,
Shodan
I know you are smart guys. You can't possibly be still confused over this.
  #47  
Old 08-23-2018, 11:21 AM
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The obvious answer to UltraVires's question is that the mods would treat trying to use this as a loophole as a warnable offense. The mods have not been shy about doing this before, so why would this be any different?

The mere fact of trying to find a loophole in the "don't be a jerk" style rules is being a jerk, so it's warnable.
  #48  
Old 08-23-2018, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manson1972
I know you are smart guys. You can't possibly be still confused over this.
What I said seems to follow logically from Miller's ruling. And I think Bricker's characterization of the ruling is quite straightforward.

If "you are the sort of person who calls people n*ggers" is OK, then nobody is confused about anything. If there is some other factor whereby it is OK in situation X but not otherwise, then I would like to know what that factor is.

If it can't be explained, well, then it would be natural to be confused.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigT
The obvious answer to UltraVires's question is that the mods would treat trying to use this as a loophole as a warnable offense. The mods have not been shy about doing this before, so why would this be any different?

The mere fact of trying to find a loophole in the "don't be a jerk" style rules is being a jerk, so it's warnable.
I don't know what this means. What is the difference between "trying to find a loophole", and posting in accordance with the rules?

Regards,
Shodan
  #49  
Old 08-23-2018, 11:39 AM
Vinyl Turnip Vinyl Turnip is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
I know you are smart guys. You can't possibly be still confused over this.
Man's understanding is powerless against the lure of the precious "gotcha."
  #50  
Old 08-23-2018, 11:44 AM
Czarcasm's Avatar
Czarcasm Czarcasm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
If it can't be explained, well, then it would be natural to be confused.
I don't know what this means. What is the difference between "trying to find a loophole", and posting in accordance with the rules?
The former is "How can I work around the rules to do what it intends to prohibit?", and the latter is posting in accordance with both the letter and the spirit of the rules.
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