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  #451  
Old 07-13-2019, 10:47 PM
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Sadly, I think Star Citizen IS becoming the "future" of gaming. That is to say, grandiose, crowd-sourced, early alpha release, open world games that promise unprecedented levels of interactivity and content and ultimately either fall short or wallow in development indefinitely. I've seen this in both the "sci fi universe simulator" genre with games like Spore, Space Engineers, No Mans Sky, Elite Dangerous and others as well as the survival genre with games like DayZ, H1Z1, Rust, SCUM, etc.

I don't think it has anything to do with "creatives" vs "beancounters". It has more to do with a) being able to turn an abstract concept into an actual playable game and b) the difficulty in creating a real working universe with enough content to actually be interesting.

What seems to happen is these games linger on for years in a sort of development hell with a user community divided between "fuck these scam artists" and "this game will be awesome when it's finally released". At some point, the development house declares "Mission Accomplished" and some buggy, crappy version of the game gets "released". Maybe a version is also ported over to XBox or Playstation. Of course, by then no one cares because no one plays it anymore.
  #452  
Old 07-14-2019, 02:19 PM
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There are games like Star Citizen, and games like Subnautica. The future isn’t all doom.
  #453  
Old 07-14-2019, 02:47 PM
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And games that continuously receive new features after release aren't necessarily a bad thing. Innovate and keep players interested or stagnate and die.
  #454  
Old 07-14-2019, 03:38 PM
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Developers of online games also need some leeway when players start behaving in ways not sufficiently anticipated. All the min/maxers in CoH, for example.

ISTM, the only really broken part of Elite is the background simulation (BGS). Some of this is caused by bored griefers exploiting loopholes in the BGS, some by deliberate interference from haxxors.
  #455  
Old 07-23-2019, 11:52 AM
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And games that continuously receive new features after release aren't necessarily a bad thing.
(bolding mine) And on that note, Star Citizen finally announced the release date of their gameannounced yet another update-Alpha 3.6, a complete Law and Crime System overhaul, as described here. Damn thing is more complicated than real life.
And you'll need to download a new launcher, too.
  #456  
Old 07-23-2019, 12:00 PM
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The bug fixes in that update show how unpolished that alpha is. It’s truly an alpha.
  #457  
Old 07-23-2019, 12:28 PM
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And games that continuously receive new features after release aren't necessarily a bad thing. Innovate and keep players interested or stagnate and die.
I think that's fine, so long as "features and content" aren't really "shit that should have been in the game from the initial release date".

There's just too much unfinished games being passed off as "the future of PC gaming" simply based on what people think the pre-release alpha version "might" become.

Even looking at one of my favorite city-builder games of all time, Cities: Skylines (which has like a 9/10 rating) is actually kind of crap in its unmodded, no DLC form. And I don't just mean user-generated visual content that lets you add a Starbucks or the architecture of Paris to your city. I mean mods that fundamentally change the interface or even way the game is played, but have become essential parts of the game. Stuff like managing traffic or just making the graphics not look like oversatured, non-aliased crap. An argument can be made that much of that work should have been completed by the developers. Particularly as the software company doesn't maintain them and you are SOL if the next version of the game causes those mods to break something and the author has moved on with his life.
  #458  
Old 07-23-2019, 02:27 PM
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I think that's fine, so long as "features and content" aren't really "shit that should have been in the game from the initial release date".
There's a difference between "shit that should have been in" and "shit that been promised to be in but wasn't".

The former can usually be bypassed by waiting for a GOTY edition rather than being one of those gamers who feel they absolutely must buy whatever is the next big thing coming to market, especially if the publisher is well known for putting out a bunch of DLC (e.g.: EA and Bethesda).

Anyway, I primarily meant online games. At least some publishers are attempting to put in everything that had been promised; ain't no way in hell Star Citizen is going to have everything that's been promised without being a quagmire.

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  #459  
Old 07-23-2019, 02:38 PM
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(bolding mine) And on that note, Star Citizen finally announced the release date of their gameannounced yet another update-Alpha 3.6, a complete Law and Crime System overhaul, as described here. Damn thing is more complicated than real life.
And you'll need to download a new launcher, too.
Seems like every time there's a new alpha, someone has written a new article criticizing the game.
  #460  
Old 08-08-2019, 10:24 AM
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There evidently was a new trailer last week, focusing on a base defense weapon. And here's a Czech article from a few days ago, criticizing the game.

Last edited by Skywatcher; 08-08-2019 at 10:25 AM.
  #461  
Old 08-31-2019, 10:22 AM
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In a stunning twist, the Squadron 42 beta has been pushed back three months. Also, there's a new ship you can buy for 675 bucks.
  #462  
Old 08-31-2019, 11:12 AM
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I wish I was confident that $675 was a joke, but I'm not. How long did the Fyre Festival guy get sentenced to prison for his scam? Six months? That's probably something Chris Roberts should consider.
  #463  
Old 08-31-2019, 11:29 AM
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Actually, you had to spend a wee bit more than $675 to buy that $675 ship. From here:
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On Saturday, Star Citizen developer Cloud Imperium Games announced, at a special dinner in Frankfurt, Germany, a new ship with a mine-laying mechanic coming to the game. It will be called Aegis Nautilus Solstice. And the price of Aegis Nautilus Solstice? $675. The price of the tickets to attend the ship’s announcement? $274.73. The minimum one would have to spend on Star Citizen to gain special access to buy a ticket? $1000. In total, a Star Citizen player would have to spend $1949.73 at the very least to attend the dinner and purchase the yet-to-be-released in-game spaceship with a yet-to-be-implemented feature in a game that still doesn’t have a full release.
  #464  
Old 08-31-2019, 01:35 PM
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Let's all be honest here. Who wishes they had come up with this scam earlier?
  #465  
Old 08-31-2019, 04:05 PM
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I wish I was confident that $675 was a joke, but I'm not. How long did the Fyre Festival guy get sentenced to prison for his scam? Six months? That's probably something Chris Roberts should consider.
Except these people aren't "buying" anything. They're 'pledging' money towards the development of the game and are receiving virtual goods in return. As long as the game remains 'in development,' RSI never has to deliver on any of these products. Even if, ten years down the road, the entirety of RSI ends up being Chris Roberts fiddling with code for an hour a day before hanging out on a beach somewhere.
  #466  
Old 08-31-2019, 04:42 PM
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Granted, I don't know the specifics of the mechanics, but mine laying is the type of thing I'd associate with the worst kind of PvPish trolling, if it's not very carefully done.
  #467  
Old 09-01-2019, 02:30 PM
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Star Citizen Developer Adopts Staggered Development... How is this news? They did that a couple years back, when they announced that Squadron 42 would be released first to generate more cash flow for Star Citizen.
  #468  
Old 09-01-2019, 02:37 PM
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Did they ever release Squadron 42 or just announce that it would be released?
  #469  
Old 09-01-2019, 02:48 PM
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Did they ever release Squadron 42 or just announce that it would be released?
They announced that it would be released first, not when.
  #470  
Old 09-01-2019, 03:19 PM
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Granted, I don't know the specifics of the mechanics, but mine laying is the type of thing I'd associate with the worst kind of PvPish trolling, if it's not very carefully done.
In this case, though, the trolling is being done to the people who buy it, which I consider an improvement. I think it's pretty obvious at this point that nobody's ever going to get any of this stuff, at least not in anything like the expected form. I think you'd have better odds buying a lottery ticket with the intent to fund a dev team to build you a game if you win...
  #471  
Old 09-30-2019, 01:05 PM
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You no longer have to look like an idiot paying hundreds of dollars for virtual ships.
You can now rent pretend ships using real money.
  #472  
Old 09-30-2019, 01:32 PM
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Let's all be honest here. Who wishes they had come up with this scam earlier?
I kinda do, too, but it would have required thirty years of work, including making some brilliant games. The only reason Chris Roberts can do all this is that he's Chris Roberts, the man who created "Wing Commander," a seminal entry in PC game history. He couldn't have gotten $200 million - couldn't have gotten a tenth of that - without that pedigree. He was a kid, really, I think just 22 when Wing Commander came out, and it was a sensation. My middle-aged Dad couldn't stop playing it. The sequels also pushed the envelope of what PC games could be.

Almost all the money, I have no doubt, is coming from guys like me (I hadn't spend a penny - guys LIKE me) who remember "Wing Commander" and get the idea, and it''s quite an awesome idea. Idea being the key word.

Since then, to a large extent, he's been trying to do the same thing. "Strike Commander" is "Wing Commander" in F-16s; "Starlancer" is more "Wing Commander," and "Freelancer" is still more "Wing Commander." "Star Citizen" is still more "Wing Commander," just way open ended, at least in theory.
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  #473  
Old 10-03-2019, 07:34 AM
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Since then, to a large extent, he's been trying to do the same thing. "Strike Commander" is "Wing Commander" in F-16s

That was him? I had no idea, I quite enjoyed that. It came bundled with our PC along with Syndicate and one of the other Wing Commander games that I unfortunately didn't get around to playing.
  #474  
Old 10-08-2019, 02:16 PM
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Since then, to a large extent, he's been trying to do the same thing. "Strike Commander" is "Wing Commander" in F-16s; "Starlancer" is more "Wing Commander," and "Freelancer" is still more "Wing Commander." "Star Citizen" is still more "Wing Commander," just way open ended, at least in theory.
That's the funny thing. If he had showed up and said "I'm gonna make a new space flight game! It's going to be a single player, narrative experience, and we're gonna call it Squadron Leader for copyright reasons!" I would have said "Take my money!"

But he DIDN'T. He showed up and said "I'm gonna make a new space flight game! It's going to be an MMO! And a single player game! And you'll be able to land on planets and space stations and walk around! And man a super star destroyer with your friends! And it will come with free ponies! And two chickens in every pot! And ray-traced mip-mapped flight sticks! And.... and... and..." and he just KEPT PILING stuff on there, and after about the third absurd "no one has ever done this before" feature (which was nowhere near the last) I went "Nope, this is impossible, and also, it's no longer remotely the game I want, let alone the game I trust you, Chris Roberts, to make."

Yes, no one thought Wing Commander could be done either, but that was only ONE impossible thing before breakfast....and Mr. Roberts has a long string of Basically Failures once he put that series down.

Last edited by Airk; 10-08-2019 at 02:16 PM.
  #475  
Old 11-19-2019, 11:46 AM
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Don't expect a full release for at least another four years.
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Is there anything you really want to implement but are waiting for the technology to catch up?

The biggest one would be proper ray-tracing [a rendering technique for tracing paths of light] and I would love to be free of polygons [the shapes that compose 3-D models]. That is a longer-term tech plan but that is probably four or five years down the road.
  #476  
Old 11-19-2019, 12:21 PM
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I don’t expect a full release ever.
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Old 11-19-2019, 12:28 PM
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I think there will be a full release eventually, given one of two conditions: either someone with clout finds the balls to tell Roberts "enough is enough" or Roberts dies. Most likely the latter.

Last edited by Skywatcher; 11-19-2019 at 12:30 PM.
  #478  
Old 11-19-2019, 03:08 PM
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I think there will be a full release eventually, given one of two conditions: either someone with clout finds the balls to tell Roberts "enough is enough" or Roberts dies. Most likely the latter.
I dunno, if he dies, who cares enough to get the mess to a releasable point? :P Someone who has sunk a lot of money in? What about when they discover that it's nowhere near good to go and will need them to sink a lot more money in?
  #479  
Old 11-19-2019, 03:34 PM
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I dunno, if he dies, who cares enough to get the mess to a releasable point? :P
Fear of lawsuits would make someone care. Cloud Imperium no longer has their boss to demand more bloat so there should be plenty of demands from backers to know where their money went.

Declare development has ended with no plans for a full release? That will open the company to demands for refunds.

Last edited by Skywatcher; 11-19-2019 at 03:37 PM.
  #480  
Old 11-19-2019, 03:57 PM
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Fear of lawsuits would make someone care. Cloud Imperium no longer has their boss to demand more bloat so there should be plenty of demands from backers to know where their money went.

Declare development has ended with no plans for a full release? That will open the company to demands for refunds.
I imagine bankruptcy and liquidation would soon follow rather than a person burning more money to try to make the endless “feature creeper” a reality at some point.
  #481  
Old 11-19-2019, 04:18 PM
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I don't have much hope that the game will ever come out, but I don't think he's saying he's delaying the game until ray tracing is perfected - just that it's a technology he's looking forward to.
  #482  
Old 11-19-2019, 04:41 PM
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I don't have much hope that the game will ever come out, but I don't think he's saying he's delaying the game until ray tracing is perfected - just that it's a technology he's looking forward to.
Note what question he answered; he pretty much came right out and said that he'll wait four years for technology to catch up. The interviewer should have pressed him for clarification.

Last edited by Skywatcher; 11-19-2019 at 04:45 PM.
  #483  
Old 11-19-2019, 09:06 PM
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I don't especially mean to be cruel, but while I've followed the story for quite some time now, and there is technically a "game," can anyone confirm my impression? It seems that, yes, there's sort of a bare-bones world you can wander, but there aren't really any systems to interact with. You can shoot other players, but there just isn't any kind of economy, let alone a way to progress. Exploration seems to be functionally nonexistent and there are huge tracts of real estate in the game that have no purpose whatsoever.

What I mean is that there isn't even a real deathmatch system, let alone any of the deep world systems that are supposed to be in the final product, right?
  #484  
Old 11-24-2019, 01:36 PM
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A release date has been announced!

Oh no, not for the game.

For the Anvil Carrack, a $350 concept ship that went on sale in 2014.
  #485  
Old 11-24-2019, 01:52 PM
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A release date has been announced!

Oh no, not for the game.

For the Anvil Carrack, a $350 concept ship that went on sale in 2014.
Even more importantly, they’re adding another feature/game mode. This is a game suffering from epic feature creep and this is just another example.
  #486  
Old 11-24-2019, 01:56 PM
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The crazy thing is, that extra mode could be its own game! A class-based FPS that features three distinct phases, each at a different scale and culminating in an epic space battle? It's like the original Star Wars: Battlefront on crack and I would totally play that game.

Somebody should make it.

Last edited by Johnny Bravo; 11-24-2019 at 01:56 PM.
  #487  
Old 11-24-2019, 02:40 PM
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Somebody should make it.
Agreed because Cloud Imperium won’t.
  #488  
Old 11-24-2019, 05:42 PM
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Even more importantly, they’re adding another feature/game mode. This is a game suffering from epic feature creep and this is just another example.
To be fair, it is unthinkable to release a game in 2025 without a Battle Royale mode.
  #489  
Old 11-25-2019, 07:11 PM
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So the title of the thread still holds true then?
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Old 11-25-2019, 07:21 PM
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So the title of the thread still holds true then?
Yes because this game is always going to exist only in the future.
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Old 11-25-2019, 07:35 PM
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"Star Citizen" is still more "Wing Commander," just way open ended, at least in theory.
Still, needs more cats.
  #492  
Old 11-25-2019, 09:31 PM
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Yes because this game is always going to exist only in the future.
lulz.

What's funny is I contributed a low level donation and upgraded my PC just to play this game with a friend. It's actually quite awesome if your rig is specced to run it. The problem is I hated it because it's extremely complicated for this piker.
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Old 11-27-2019, 08:20 AM
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Even more importantly, they’re adding another feature/game mode. This is a game suffering from epic feature creep and this is just another example.
"Feature creep" really doesn't describe this. It's way past that.

The linked article is... surreal, I guess. I mean, the announcement weas made at CitizenCon. They're holding conventions for a game that isn't out yet. I can understand going to BlizzCon, because you can celebrate games that, you know, exist. World of Warcraft and Diablo are actual games that were published in a finished form and are playable as advertised. The author of this article, Owen Good, dutifully repeats alleged features and CIG marketing statements without even the slightest hint of the fact that the entire enterprise is a ridiculous joke until the4 end of the peice when he writes that the gargantuan money sink has "... made the spaceflight sim quite a controversial project." It's like when Donald Trump says clockwise is actually counterclockwise and the media says "Directions are a new debate."

I'm still back and forth on whether Roberts and his inner circle are honestly trying to make a game or if it's now really just a Ponzi scheme. (Ponzi scheme is not exactly a technically correct term but I don't know what else to call it.) Obviously they started out wanting to make a game; I just don't know if they have yet truly switched over to primarily trying to keep the suckers buying air.
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Old 11-27-2019, 10:37 AM
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So long as the game remains in development, all of the money they've received are pledges. Nobody has bought anything. Per the terms of their EULA, they're not responsible for their own promises until they've released a finished product.

They have a successful business model that has brought in more money over a longer period of time than many, many games. They're paying salaries, keeping the lights running, holding conventions, etc. The Star Citizen Kickstarter closed in November of 2012, so that means the game has been making money for seven years.

So... why finish?

Last edited by Johnny Bravo; 11-27-2019 at 10:40 AM.
  #495  
Old 12-02-2019, 05:20 PM
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And they just broke the quarter-billion mark.
  #496  
Old 12-02-2019, 05:22 PM
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Out of idle curiosity, does anyone know what the second-most-expensive-video-game-in-history was? How much did it cost? How long did it take to reach completion?

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  #497  
Old 12-02-2019, 05:51 PM
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Out of idle curiosity, does anyone know what the second-most-expensive-video-game-in-history was? How much did it cost? How long did it take to reach completion?
Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 cost $250 million to make.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news...2-Cost-to-Make
Adjusted for inflation that works out to just under $300 million. It’s considered the most expensive game ever made. Keep in mind that 80% of the cost of the game was marketing. Actual development costs were around $50 million.

So despite its bloat, Star Citizen isn’t yet the most expensive. It’s getting there.

Also more expensive was GTAV, its adjusted expense in today’s money was $285 million.

Assuming the total cost of Star Citizen is the $250 million being cited, it is in third place. It’s ahead of Star Wars: The Old Republic, which cost a bit over $223 million adjusted for inflation.
  #498  
Old 12-02-2019, 06:05 PM
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I'm still back and forth on whether Roberts and his inner circle are honestly trying to make a game or if it's now really just a Ponzi scheme. (Ponzi scheme is not exactly a technically correct term but I don't know what else to call it.) Obviously they started out wanting to make a game; I just don't know if they have yet truly switched over to primarily trying to keep the suckers buying air.
The technical term is vaporware. Of course that runs the gamut from a product that is earnestly being worked on but fails to release, to a scam that was never real to begin with.

The Phantom console comes to my mind when I think of malicious vaporware:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_Entertainment
That involved people connected to organized crime, the product was never intended to be made, and the SEC went after them.

I doubt that Star Citizen is anything like that. I think that they went into this with the intention of making a real game but they just don’t know when to rein it in and set up realistic goals.

I think of it like this... Imagine a high school is putting on a Halloween event. They put together a planning committee and go about getting a budget. Suddenly they get a huge influx of cash from a wealthy alumnus who wants to give back to the school and announces that the cash has to be used for the event. Now they suddenly have many thousands of dollars to spend and they go crazy with more and more outlandish ideas. Their plans become too much for a high school to support and the group of students are unable to get everything prepared in time for Halloween, and so the event never happens. That sudden windfall is too much of a good thing.

I feel like that’s what happened here. The Kickstarter gave them such a budget that they kept adding features, which led to more pledges, and then funding becomes a self-sustaining creature where they need to promise more and bigger things to bring more pledge money, etc. So they’re bringing in lots of money for something that will never get done. No intentional fraud involved, just delusion.
  #499  
Old 12-02-2019, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atamasama View Post
Also more expensive was GTAV, its adjusted expense in today’s money was $285 million.
And GTAV has made around $6 billion.
  #500  
Old 12-06-2019, 02:51 PM
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A BBC tech program, Click, will be looking into just why Star Citizen is taking forever to release ... on December 14 at 1:30p UK time on the BBC News Channel.
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