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Old 01-17-2020, 09:13 AM
BeepKillBeep is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Canada
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A Hypothetical: When and where is the revolution?


The Prologue

To start, I'm not calling for a violent uprising. The purpose of this thread is to investigate the so-called claim by proponents of civilian firearm ownership that such ownership prevents a loss of other rights and freedoms.

I think that an actual violent uprising in the USA would be a colossal failure. This notion, held by some gun owners, is nothing more than a macho fantasy delusion. In reality, if there were a successful mass uprising, then many revolutionaries would be killed very early by poorly coordinated attacks (due in part to the macho fantasy). Of the remainder, some percentage would be lost to being unable to deal with the hardship of guerilla warfare, some percentage would be unable to kill another person. The remainder, probably less than 100,000 dispersed across the county would be branded terrorists, and the vast majority of the American public would believe it as they've be indoctrinated to accept government propaganda on this issue. They would then slowly be killed off, while inflicting certainly fair casaulties in return until the whole thing essentially collapsed.

Note, this assumption no mass starvation in the USA. People revolt when they're hungry, and Americans (like most of the anglosphere) are simply not hungry. The revolution, I'm afraid, is at home watching TV and surfing the internet for cat videos.

But this thread isn't about the likely success or failure of a revoluion. I'll concede to start that it would be succesful. No, this thread is about why haven't gun owners revolted? Where and when is the revolution to protect the USA?

While I will try to avoid it I may use the term "you" throughout. This is the general you not intended to address the reader.

Part I

The freedoms and democratic ideals of the USA are under attack. A partial list non-partisan list (this includes things done by Bush, Obama and Trump) includes:

- Patriot Act
-- Sneek and Peek warrants (section 213)
- Drones strikes on American citizens overseas
- NDAA (indefinite incarceration of Americans)
- FISA court
- Muslim ban
- Asylum seeking refugees in cages
- Severe gerrymandering
- Voter ID and other efforts to reduce the vote for likely political opponents
- Removal of voting machines from areas likely to vote for political opponents
- Explicit lies being told by American officials to the public
- Citizens United
- Proto-fascist president [1][2][3]
- Rise (again?) of authoritarian voters [4][5][6]
- Support for foreign interference in US elections
- Erosion of ADA
- Erosion of freedom of religious conscience
- etc.

So where's the revolution? America is under attack even if only the partial list is accurate or something, then shouldn't there be an uprising?

Well, I can see the objection being that none of those things quite rise to uprising worthiness. So if you're going to post that, then I can save you the trouble. Skip to Part II.

1. Giroux, H. A. (2017). White nationalism, armed culture and state violence in the age of Donald Trump. Philosophy & Social Criticism, 43(9), 887-910.

2. Norris, P., & Inglehart, R. (2019). Cultural backlash: Trump, Brexit, and authoritarian populism. Cambridge University Press.

3. Kellner, D. (2016). American nightmare: Donald Trump, media spectacle, and authoritarian populism (Vol. 117). Springer.

4. MacWilliams, M. C. (2016). Who decides when the party doesn’t? Authoritarian voters and the rise of Donald Trump. PS: Political Science & Politics, 49(4), 716-721.

5. Wrightsman Jr, L. S., Radloff, R. W., Horton, D. L., & Mecherikoff, M. (1961). Authoritarian attitudes and presidential voting preferences. Psychological Reports, 8(1), 43-46.

6. McCann, S. J. (2009). Political conservatism, authoritarianism, and societal threat: Voting for republican representatives in US Congressional Elections from 1946 to 1992. The Journal of Psychology, 143(4), 341-358.

Part II

If the list above is insufficient to be worth revolting over (and I would argue that some of those things have to be very concerning since there are direct attack on the democratic principles of the USA), then the question becomes "Then what is?" How do you know when it is time to revolt?

Now, before you answer this question lightly, keep in mind this needs some very careful reflection. If somebody revolts too early, then they're a lone wolf nut and are quickly arrested or killed by police. In 2014, Moncton, NB, Canada, a person attacked and kill three police officers. He thought he was sparking the revolution according to this own words [7]. He was very wrong. If you revolt too late, then your odds of success go way down (popular support rises over time, people get comfortable with the new way, military and police become more loyal to the regime).

So, what's that sweet spot? At what point, at least from a hypothetical point of view, is enough enough (again, for clarity, I'm not calling for violent uprising)?

And if that point cannot be identified, then how does civilian gun ownership help defend your freedoms? If the point of needing a revolt cannot be (easily) identified, then does civilian gun ownership really protect your freedom?

[7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moncton_shooting

The Epilogue

While obviously I have no powers to control what people post I would ask the following:

A. Avoid arguments either way with regards to hunting and sport shooting. It is irrelevant either way.

B. Avoid arguments either way with regards to self defense, and crime reduction. It is irrelevant either way.
-- In other words, lets keep this focused exclusively on does civilian firearm ownership protect other freedoms.

C. It is conceded, as above, that an uprising would be successful, even though I personally think this is unlikely. So, I would ask any follow-up from a gun control/gun confiscation side to respect this concession so that the pro-gun ownership side does not have to try to defend that hypothetical.
-- If we get to the point where this needs to be addressed, then I will start another thread focused on that question

D. I would caution the pro-gun ownership side from using Venezula as an example. While a gun confiscation took place in Venezula in 2012, Venezula has not been a politically stable country for the past 100 years. It does not have a strong democratic history, so arguments that Venezula shows that a gun confiscation creates a dictatorship will be met with derision.
-- It would be best to stick with countries that are politically similar to the USA; i.e., with strong democratic traditions.

E. My own personal view is that civilian firearm ownership may have had some validity at some point in history, for a variety of reasons. I think that there are certain edges cases where civilian firearm ownership still has some limited validity. However, overall, I am very much in favor of banning civilian firearm ownership, in particular weapons like the AR-15. I have some modest experience with firearms (I'm certainly no expert) largely from my time in the military but also some use as a civilian at a shooting range, so my thoughts are not due to a lack of familiarity or fear of firearms. I personally find shooting a firearm to be quite fun, so I understand the appeal from that point of view. So any replies saying that I'm just a cowardly cuck libtard who is afraid of guns will be met with laughter.

Last edited by BeepKillBeep; 01-17-2020 at 09:17 AM.
 

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