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  #101  
Old 01-29-2020, 06:34 AM
Jackknifed Juggernaut is offline
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I guess all of this proves the original point that teams, and not individuals, win championships. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts. Sure, some individual players contribute more to the “whole” by being better and making other players better. But counting rings in no way makes MJ a better player than LeBron. Again, and this is subjective, but you replace Jordan with LeBron, and the Bulls still win 6 and likely a whole lot more. Can’t say the same the other way around.
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  #102  
Old 01-29-2020, 07:20 AM
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Actually, that post is the first time I have mentioned Pippen in reference to Michael Jordan, and I have not mentioned Dennis Rodman at all.


I do not think that, have not even suggested it, and that weird idea has absolutely nothing to do with anything I have written. You seem confused. Who do you think you are replying to?
My bad. You referenced JackJugg's and his positions several times in your reply and apparently somewhere along the way I started merging your arguments together with his. My reply is to the combined argument that seems to only exist in my head.

Convo has moved on so I will let the points stand and try to jump back into the flow
  #103  
Old 01-29-2020, 07:46 AM
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Wade is the only player that even comes close to rising at the level of Pippen, in contributing to the championships of LeBron or Jordan. And by the time he started playing with LeBron, he had fallen to All-NBA 3rd team. Bosh never rose to that class. Neither did Irving or Love.

Plus, you’re ignoring the defensive side of the ball. Not only was Pippen perennial All-NBA 1st or 2nd team, he was on 8 1st team defenses. These were the Bulls championship years. Plus Rodman led the league in rebounds for all 3 years of that 2nd 3-peat. You know it, the year after Jordan lost to Shaq, who in turn got destroyed by Olajuwon (since we’re boiling this all down to individual players). Which is why the Bulls had to enlist their arch-enemy, Rodman. While LeBron’s success is often downplayed due to his joining a “super team”, to quote Draymond Green, “you started it, bruh!” should have been directed at Jordan. Followed by Shaq and Kobe. Although the Rockets acquiring Drexler might have been the blueprint.

So if you’re discounting the contributions of Pippen in those 6 rings, achieving awards only surpassed by Jordan, then perhaps you’ve answered the OP’s question about Jordan’s era. Clearly very weak, if even Pippen was making all-NBA and all-Defense 1st teams. Makes sense, when Magic, Bird, and Isiah all got old, and when Shaq was just getting started.
I think the Jordan had superior teammates argument is bunk. I would say Wade and Pippen basically cancel each other out in the comparison but that still leaves Lebron with the notable teammates of Bosh, Love and Kyrie while Jordan is left with Rodman. And if I really wanted to nitpick I would add Ray Allen to Lebron's list even though he was a bit past his best used by date during that particular championship run. That just leaves the Zen Master unaccounted for.

And Jordan didn't start the whole super team concept. Dude never conspired with Barkley and Hakeem to leverage their free agency so that they can form the NBA's first AAU squad with the goal of removing 2 competitive teams (Toronto and Cleveland) from their conference then beating up on everybody else knowing they had disproportionally less talent. If I'm not mistaken, that punk ass move by Lebron was basically the start of his long string of finals appearances (minus 2007) and the end of any type of competitive balance in the east. He executed his plan flawlessly and he got exactly what he wanted (minus a lot more rings) but if he hadn't left Cleveland to go hide under Wade's skirt then he would be getting a lot more respect than he does now. For most of us die hard basketball fans that one particular move permanently removed him from the greatest of all time debate. Winners don't run, they fight and they overcome or they fall while giving everything they have.
Same goes for Durant in case your were wondering.
  #104  
Old 01-29-2020, 07:51 AM
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So are the toilets!
Now the phrase "dunking turds" won't leave my head, thanks. Also, punk band name.
  #105  
Old 01-29-2020, 08:18 AM
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Now the phrase "dunking turds" won't leave my head, thanks. Also, punk band name.
That punk band’s album cover should feature a giant “drinking bird” toy dipping into a toilet.
  #106  
Old 01-29-2020, 08:33 AM
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... so that they can form the NBA's first AAU squad with the goal of removing 2 competitive teams (Toronto and Cleveland) from their conference then beating up on everybody else knowing they had disproportionally less talent. If I'm not mistaken, that punk ass move by Lebron was basically the start of his long string of finals appearances (minus 2007) and the end of any type of competitive balance in the east.
During James's four years in Miami, the Heat only finished first overall in the East once, in 2012-2013.

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For most of us die hard basketball fans that one particular move permanently removed him from the greatest of all time debate.
I am extremely skeptical of your use of the word "most" here.
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  #107  
Old 01-29-2020, 08:57 AM
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And Jordan didn't start the whole super team concept. Dude never conspired with Barkley and Hakeem to leverage their free agency so that they can form the NBA's first AAU squad with the goal of removing 2 competitive teams (Toronto and Cleveland) from their conference then beating up on everybody else knowing they had disproportionally less talent.
Everyone knows teams should be chosen by people who own used car dealerships or tech companies, not by *gasp* basketball players.

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  #108  
Old 01-29-2020, 09:00 AM
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During James's four years in Miami, the Heat only finished first overall in the East once, in 2012-2013.


I am extremely skeptical of your use of the word "most" here.
The real winner of the east is whoever wins the eastern conference finals and that was Lebron in 2011 (Mia), 2012 (Mia), 2013 (Mia), 2014 (Mia), 2015 (Cle), 2016 (Cle) and 2017 (Cle)

I'm not skeptical that "most" diehards think Lebron punked out. It's been a standard basketball debate since 2011 and I've spoken with fans from the US to Taiwan who all agree that our opinions of Lebron took a hit when he moved into the house that DWade's built.
  #109  
Old 01-29-2020, 09:22 AM
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Everyone knows teams should be chosen by people who own used car dealerships or tech companies, not by *gasp* basketball players.
I think you misunderstand why we disliked the move so much. I don't think most folks have an issue with players choosing their own teams. Quite the contrary, more power to them I say.

What we hate is when the very top players in the league choose to negatively impact the overall competitive balance of the league in order to team up with other top players in an effort to pave an easy path to a ring. Lebron, Wade and Bosh were three of the top 5 players in the east and three of the top 15 players in the league when they teamed up. And by doing so they essentially removed 2 playoff capable teams from the path they needed to walk to get to the finals all while ensuring their path to the finals would remain easy for the next few years as the east retooled from the shake up.

I don't know about you but I don't watch basketball to see a bunch of superstars going around beating up on weaker competition on an easy path to victory. I watch because I want to see people take arms against a sea of troubles and by opposing end them. Jordan is widely considered the best because he took on all comers and emerged victorious more often than not. When Jordan ran into an obstacle he couldn't clear (like the Bad Boys) he went back to the lab and cooked up a solution. What he didn't do is punk out and go ask to join other top tier talent because the Pistons kept beating him up.
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Old 01-29-2020, 09:27 AM
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So LeBron's teams kept winning the conference even when at least one or two other teams appeared to have an equal amount of talent? That's a good thing for him.

So people you know all agree with you he "punked out"? Still not convinced that's "most basketball fans."


Incidentally, I find it weird that in greatest player debates, no one talks about Kareem. Geez, it wasn't that long ago. Kareem won six rings (with two different franchises) was for awhile obviously the greatest player in the world, and played at a stellar level for an incredibly long time.
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  #111  
Old 01-29-2020, 09:30 AM
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What he didn't do is punk out and go ask to join other top tier talent because the Pistons kept beating him up.
Apart from when he went and recruited Dennis Rodman, that is, but I guess that doesn't count because reasons.
  #112  
Old 01-29-2020, 09:39 AM
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So LeBron's teams kept winning the conference even when at least one or two other teams appeared to have an equal amount of talent? That's a good thing for him.

So people you know all agree with you he "punked out"? Still not convinced that's "most basketball fans."


Incidentally, I find it weird that in greatest player debates, no one talks about Kareem. Geez, it wasn't that long ago. Kareem won six rings (with two different franchises) was for awhile obviously the greatest player in the world, and played at a stellar level for an incredibly long time.
Yup, I only have anecdotal evidence to present. If you've got some compelling evidence that I'm wrong I'm all ears (eyes).

Kareem was a spectacular talent. Definitely an all time great. But he doesn't get mentioned because Magic was The Man on the Lakers for 5 of his rings. Kareem didn't want to wear the crown and he was more than happy to step back and let Magic run the show.
  #113  
Old 01-29-2020, 09:45 AM
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As a Chicagoan, I'm glad Michael Jordan's star has faded somewhat. I'd rather that Chicago was known for Al Capone. No, really.
  #114  
Old 01-29-2020, 09:47 AM
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Apart from when he went and recruited Dennis Rodman, that is, but I guess that doesn't count because reasons.
I don't remember that story. My understanding (and google backs this up) is that Rodman was not going to be able to continue in San Antonio due to an extremely poor attitude so the Spurs traded him to Chicago for low low price of Will Perdue. By Grabthar's Hammer, What A Savings!

How did Jordan convince the Spurs to trade Rodman exactly? If Jordan pulled that off then it's obvious I don't respect his impact on the league enough!
  #115  
Old 01-29-2020, 10:09 AM
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Apart from when he went and recruited Dennis Rodman, that is, but I guess that doesn't count because reasons.
Yeah this isn't how it happened. Micheal was never defacto GM like LeBron. So that's why it doesn't count. Not because reasons, but because its false revisionist history being used to justify LeBron being unable to win without joining forces with his top conference rivals.
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  #116  
Old 01-29-2020, 10:28 AM
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As a Chicagoan, I'm glad Michael Jordan's star has faded somewhat. I'd rather that Chicago was known for Al Capone. No, really.
As a life-long Chicagoan and only the most casual of basketball fans (it's my least favorite major sport), absolutely not. If it's Jordan vs Capone, come on.

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  #117  
Old 01-29-2020, 10:36 AM
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As a Chicagoan, I'm glad Michael Jordan's star has faded somewhat. I'd rather that Chicago was known for Al Capone. No, really.
I don't think his star has faded at all. It's just that a brighter star popped into existence!

As for Capone, he is surely the GGOAT... Greatest Gangster of All Time!
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  #118  
Old 01-29-2020, 10:46 AM
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I don't think his star has faded at all. It's just that a brighter star popped into existence!

As for Capone, he is surely the GGOAT... Greatest Gangster of All Time!
More recent != brighter

Also, a subjective claim being phrased as a statement of fact does not confer factuality or objectivity to that claim.
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  #119  
Old 01-29-2020, 11:01 AM
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More recent != brighter

Also, a subjective claim being phrased as a statement of fact does not confer factuality or objectivity to that claim.
Well, I think it's obvious in "who's better?" discussions that these are all opinions. I presented actual facts numerous times in this discussion, so I have no reason to keep going. Jordan backers in this debate have been anchored to their belief so long that they can't see reality. Even before LeBron even won a single ring, and while I don't think it will happen, this will be the case even if he wins 3 more.
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  #120  
Old 01-29-2020, 11:10 AM
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Well, I think it's obvious in "who's better?" discussions that these are all opinions. I presented actual facts numerous times in this discussion, so I have no reason to keep going.
You've presented many opinions that you keep trying to state as if they are objective facts. Doesn't change the fact that every single thing you've argued is a subjective opinion.

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Jordan backers in this debate have been anchored to their belief so long that they can't see reality. Even before LeBron even won a single ring, and while I don't think it will happen, this will be the case even if he wins 3 more.
And LeBron backers are so blinded by the shine of recent history that they can't see anything further back and are denying all reality prior to 2007.

We can both do this if this is the kind of debate you want. Although I'm personally getting tired of it, and getting tired of these little needling insults you need to keep peppering your posts with aimed at anyone that disagrees with you. You are not the arbiter of reality.

Both players are all time greats. Nobody disputes that. Which is the GOAT is, and always will be a matter of opinion. If you stop insisting your opinions are "actual facts" then we don't really have a disagreement. We just have different opinions. That is possible without having to refer to either side as being disconnected from reality.
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  #121  
Old 01-29-2020, 11:11 AM
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I guess all of this proves the original point that teams, and not individuals, win championships. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts. Sure, some individual players contribute more to the “whole” by being better and making other players better. But counting rings in no way makes MJ a better player than LeBron. Again, and this is subjective, but you replace Jordan with LeBron, and the Bulls still win 6 and likely a whole lot more. Can’t say the same the other way around.
You keep making claims that make no sense. MJ never had a Heatles team, as pointed out by facts. What makes you think Jordan wouldn't win until Bosh died on that Miami team?
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Old 01-29-2020, 11:31 AM
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You keep making claims that make no sense. MJ never had a Heatles team, as pointed out by facts. What makes you think Jordan wouldn't win until Bosh died on that Miami team?
Again, I'm not going to re-hash everything again. I have about a dozen posts in this thread. If you want to dispute something factual, be specific.
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  #123  
Old 01-29-2020, 12:00 PM
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Again, I'm not going to re-hash everything again. I have about a dozen posts in this thread. If you want to dispute something factual, be specific.
A dozen posts of opinions.

Asserting that your opinions are facts does not make them facts.
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  #124  
Old 01-29-2020, 12:18 PM
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Well it was fun while it lasted...
  #125  
Old 01-29-2020, 12:21 PM
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Well it was fun while it lasted...
That's what Cleveland, then Miami, then Cleveland again said when LeBron was taking his talents to find other talents to play with so he could win
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  #126  
Old 01-29-2020, 12:40 PM
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That's what Cleveland, then Miami, then Cleveland again said when LeBron was taking his talents to find other talents to play with so he could win
Then they set his jersey on fire...

For me, the worst part of this debate is the fact that I am a HUGE Lakers fan and I hope like hell that Lebron gets #4 while wearing a Laker jersey. I don't mind telling you that I have had a very hard time trying to reconcile my hate for Lebron with my love for the Lakers. This is such a confusing time for me...
  #127  
Old 01-29-2020, 12:46 PM
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....Asserting that your opinions are facts does not make them facts.
When I have time, I'll go back to educating you and BeagleJesus. Be patient. It really is taking longer than we thought!
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  #128  
Old 01-29-2020, 12:48 PM
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When I have time, I'll go back to educating you and BeagleJesus. Be patient. It really is taking longer than we thought!
Again with the insults?
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  #129  
Old 01-29-2020, 01:10 PM
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When I have time, I'll go back to educating you and BeagleJesus. Be patient. It really is taking longer than we thought!
Bring it! I'll send your ass home like the '07 Cavs

(This is a joke. This is only a joke. In case of an actual insult I will express much more vitriol and use a lot more curse words)

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  #130  
Old 01-29-2020, 01:10 PM
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Again with the insults?
Apologies. Re-reading what I wrote could be taken as an insult, so sorry for that. While I generally take sports discussions kind of seriously, that part was meant to be in jest (which is why I winked).
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  #131  
Old 01-29-2020, 01:17 PM
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Bring it! I'll send your ass home like the '07 Cavs
That powerhouse team featuring Drew Gooden and Ilgauskas? I assume you think that Jordan would have fared better?
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Old 01-29-2020, 01:19 PM
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Apologies. Re-reading what I wrote could be taken as an insult, so sorry for that. While I generally take sports discussions kind of seriously, that part was meant to be in jest (which is why I winked).
All good. It was the "educating" us part that chafed a bit, but I also know that sports discussions usually feature a good amount of back and forth ribbing.

I suppose I could take this all a little less seriously
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  #133  
Old 01-29-2020, 01:28 PM
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That powerhouse team featuring Drew Gooden and Ilgauskas? I assume you think that Jordan would have fared better?
He would probably fare about the same. Similar to the first few years of MJs career with teammates such as Dave Corzine, Granville Waiters, Pete Myers and *rechecks name* Sedale Threatt. You know the teams you claim were superior to any that LeBron has ever played with. How do you suppose LeBron would fare with those teammates in an era with the Bird/McHale/Parrish Celtics and the Magic/Kareem/Worthy lakers, not to mention the Isaiah Pistons? You're still trying to give LeBrons teammates all of the blame, but not giving Jordan's early years the same consideration. Those teams were bad aside from Michael. Just like LeBron's early Cavs teams.
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  #134  
Old 01-29-2020, 01:39 PM
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That punk band’s album cover should feature a giant “drinking bird” toy dipping into a toilet.
Thinking about it some more, "turd dunkin'" is probably better, with a punk Thanksgiving themed album cover. YES it's been on my mind the entire day WHAT ABOUT IT ?!
  #135  
Old 01-29-2020, 02:07 PM
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He would probably fare about the same. Similar to the first few years of MJs career with teammates such as Dave Corzine, Granville Waiters, Pete Myers and *rechecks name* Sedale Threatt. You know the teams you claim were superior to any that LeBron has ever played with.
No one in this thread has claimed the Bulls in Jordan's very early days were all that good aside from Jordan. The comparisons being made are between the teams that actually won.

The Bulls finally getting good exactly coincides with the arrival of Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant, illustrating that no man can single handedly win in the NBA. It just cannot be done. Even Wilt Chamberlain when he was playing every minute and putting up Nintendo numbers couldn't win by himself.
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Old 01-29-2020, 02:15 PM
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No one in this thread has claimed the Bulls in Jordan's very early days were all that good aside from Jordan. The comparisons being made are between the teams that actually won.
Not true. I believe the line I'm remembering is something like: Jordan lost with teammates that were far superior to any that LeBron has played with.

This criticism was referring to the first 5-6 years of his career when he was losing in the playoffs. The majority of that time was before Pippen and Grant and with the chumps I mentioned earlier. Can't have it both ways and talk about LeBron's crappy teammates early in his career and not use the same criteria to view the crappy teammates Jordan had early in his career. If we're comparing, then we need to compare fairly.

I can pull that quote if you doubt it happened.
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  #137  
Old 01-29-2020, 02:17 PM
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Again, I'm not going to re-hash everything again. I have about a dozen posts in this thread. If you want to dispute something factual, be specific.
You've argued that Jordan's championship teammates were better. A look at the actual numbers proved that wrong, so you just went with "well duh, teams win championships" and then repeated your argument that Jordan had better teammates.

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  #138  
Old 01-29-2020, 02:27 PM
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Jordan was playing with Pippen and Grant for four seasons without winning the title; it wasn't until 1991 that they won it all. It was only the first two years of his career he didn't have those guys.

I didn't make the argument Jordan lost with better teams than LeBron did, and one would struggle to really prove something like that one way or the other, but I am really, really sure no one meant the 1985 Bulls had anyone good on them not name "Michael Jordan." I think he WON with better teams, but again it's hard to objectively prove.

As to what put the Bulls over the top, that's hard to say. The 89-90 Bulls went 55-27 and they did have Pippen and Grant, and John Paxson was decent but after that, it's not a deep team, and they lost to the Pistons in the third round. In 1991 basically the same team won the Finals; maybe they just needed another year.
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  #139  
Old 01-29-2020, 03:02 PM
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LeBron didn't win immediately with Wade and Bosh either. In fact that first finals LeBron was completely absent. A non-factor.

Do you think there is any chance in hell that Jordan would ever be such a non-existent entity in a finals series?! If you want to be the GOAT you cannot disappear in the finals like that. Ever. Regardless of who your teammates are.
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Last edited by Airbeck; 01-29-2020 at 03:02 PM.
  #140  
Old 01-29-2020, 03:16 PM
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As a life-long Chicagoan and only the most casual of basketball fans (it's my least favorite major sport), absolutely not. If it's Jordan vs Capone, come on.
I don't care for basketball either, but I lived through that whole three-peat madness, and Jordan was all anyone wanted to talk about. Then, the talking heads on the news shows started bleating that around the world, Michael Jordan was replacing Al Capone as the symbol of Chicago. I wanted to vomit by that time.

I don't think Michael Jordan is interesting at all. Capone, on the other hand...

(Okay, okay, I know Al Capone was a vicious killer. But he interests me more than Jordan does.)

How about we compromise and make Barack Obama the symbol of Chicago?
  #141  
Old 01-29-2020, 04:50 PM
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I don't care for basketball either, but I lived through that whole three-peat madness, and Jordan was all anyone wanted to talk about. Then, the talking heads on the news shows started bleating that around the world, Michael Jordan was replacing Al Capone as the symbol of Chicago. I wanted to vomit by that time.

I don't think Michael Jordan is interesting at all. Capone, on the other hand...

(Okay, okay, I know Al Capone was a vicious killer. But he interests me more than Jordan does.)

How about we compromise and make Barack Obama the symbol of Chicago?
[side commentary]
That's fine. But for me, it was nice when I went abroad and stopped getting "machine gun" gestures and "Al Capon-ay?" when I mentioned I was from Chicago and instead Chicago started being associated with Michael Jordan. I wasn't a big basketball fan, but I did get to be at the conference semi-finals, conference finals, and NBA finals games at the United Center for the fifth and sixth championships (I was working there as a photographer and film developer for AFP/Agence-France Presse.) It was mind-blowing to me to see that kind of athleticism in action.
[/side commentary]
  #142  
Old 01-29-2020, 06:01 PM
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You've argued that Jordan's championship teammates were better. A look at the actual numbers proved that wrong, so you just went with "well duh, teams win championships" and then repeated your argument that Jordan had better teammates.
Really? Did you read the first page of this thread? And no numbers proved me wrong.
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  #143  
Old 01-30-2020, 08:00 AM
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Yup, I only have anecdotal evidence to present. If you've got some compelling evidence that I'm wrong I'm all ears (eyes).

Kareem was a spectacular talent. Definitely an all time great. But he doesn't get mentioned because Magic was The Man on the Lakers for 5 of his rings. Kareem didn't want to wear the crown and he was more than happy to step back and let Magic run the show.
So Bill Russell was the greatest of all time, right?
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  #144  
Old 01-30-2020, 10:43 AM
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So Bill Russell was the greatest of all time, right?
Jordan is often referred to as the greatest player of the modern era (fyi: modern era supposedly started with Magic and Bird and the three point line back in the 79-80 season).

In my opinion Russell is the ONLY legit person you can put up against Jordan in the greatest of all time debate. Of course the argument then becomes modern era vs the previous era...but 11 is hard number to ignore.

I am starting to get entertained by your attempts to try get me to quantify that which cannot be quantified.

Last edited by BeagleJesus; 01-30-2020 at 10:44 AM.
  #145  
Old 01-30-2020, 10:53 AM
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I am starting to get entertained by your attempts to try get me to quantify that which cannot be quantified.
Counting Finals wins is quantifying things.
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  #146  
Old 01-30-2020, 12:41 PM
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Counting Finals wins is quantifying things.
Come on man. This started as a fun little debate about absolutely nothing important and this is what you have chosen to turn it into? Disingenuous nitpicking of specific facts while completely ignoring the scope of the argument all in an effort to score a point?
  #147  
Old 01-30-2020, 01:35 PM
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Come on man. This started as a fun little debate about absolutely nothing important and this is what you have chosen to turn it into? Disingenuous nitpicking of specific facts while completely ignoring the scope of the argument all in an effort to score a point?
Wow, dude, it's okay. No need to get upset. But all of this IS quantifying; there's no point denying that or pretending you aren't quantifying your positions. You've used statistics and quantities over and over again. Kareem won six rings but he wasn't "the man" for five of them? That's a quantity. Jordan was 6-0 in the Finals, right? Quantities. That's the nature of sports discussions. They're always based, to a large extent, in numbers.
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  #148  
Old 01-30-2020, 01:44 PM
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Pound for pound, Muggsy Bogues is the best NBA player of all time.

/thread
  #149  
Old 01-30-2020, 01:55 PM
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Wow, dude, it's okay. No need to get upset. But all of this IS quantifying; there's no point denying that or pretending you aren't quantifying your positions. You've used statistics and quantities over and over again. Kareem won six rings but he wasn't "the man" for five of them? That's a quantity. Jordan was 6-0 in the Finals, right? Quantities. That's the nature of sports discussions. They're always based, to a large extent, in numbers.
Oh good lord! Fine, let's just pretend that I am upset and you are arguing in good faith despite the fact that you have routinely replied to my posts with disingenuous bullshit that doesn't even begin to address the points I was making. Yup, that's totally what happened.

You have been awarded 1 point for winning a disingenuous argument that has shit to do with the debate at hand.
  #150  
Old 01-30-2020, 02:05 PM
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All you have to do is look at how tenaciously they played defense back then as compared to now. They hand checked and took people to the floor who dared drive the lane. Look at the Bill Lambeer Pistons and Pat Riley Knicks whose philosophy was, "If we constantly foul him, they can't call them all." I believed it was referred to as, "The Jordan Rules". Now, I could drive my car down the lane to the basket. It's a joke.
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