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Old 02-08-2020, 04:28 PM
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Who could use the Ring to successfully overthrow Sauron?


So I'm rereading LotR and reminding myself of various issues. I vaguely recalled that only folks like Galadriel, Gandalf, Saruman, and Elrond were threats to Sauron (of course, they'd become dark lords themselves, but let's not worry about that for the moment). But as I read the book again, I see signs of some other potential dark lords - Sauron seems pretty concerned about Aragorn when Aragorn seizes control of the Palantir, and even more strangely, when Frodo is held captive by Orcs in Shelob's tower, the Orcs report urgent orders from Sauron that all personal effects of Frodo were to be sent immediately to the Dark Tower, suggesting that Sauron had reason to worry that even a Orc-Captain might be able to keep the Ring away from Sauron for some time.

Note, even without the Ring, Sauron is able to turn Saruman into a servant who reports in regularly (even though Saruman was conniving to get out from under Sauron's grasp) and to tempt Denethor into despair. The rules of Middle-Earth seem to respect authority as well as actual power - since Aragorn is the heir of Isilduir, he had authority over the Palantir, and inherited right of conquest to the Ring. But did Sauron really have reason to fear that Gorbag with the Ring could be a problem (or was Sauron's own obsession misleading him)?

Tolkien experts, Assemble!
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Old 02-08-2020, 05:52 PM
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Details about who could beat Sauron with the Ring, compiled from JRRT's many separate writings on the topic, can be found here: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringf...#Q1-BeatSauron

One on one? Probably only Gandalf. A fellow Maia, he got his upgrade from Eru to White status so he could continue to fight Sauron more effectively.

By building a military with it? Gandalf, Aragorn, Elrond.

That's according to Tolkien's own notes. This analysis also dismisses the possibility of the ringwraiths or an orc chieftain being able to do so. See the link for their discussion on why.

Me? I think Galadriel and Cirdan might also have had a shot at it. Cirdan was accounted the most wise person in ME per JRRT. And Galadriel was schooled at the feet of the Valar themselves back in Valinor, and spent a lot of one on one time with Melian the Maia.

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Old 02-08-2020, 06:02 PM
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Details about who could beat Sauron with the Ring, compiled from JRRT's many separate writings on the topic, can be found here: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringf...#Q1-BeatSauron

One on one? Probably only Gandalf. A fellow Maia, he got his upgrade from Eru to White status so he could continue to fight Sauron more effectively.

By building a military with it? Gandalf, Aragorn, Elrond.

That's according to Tolkien's own notes. This analysis also dismisses the possibility of the ringwraiths or an orc chieftain being able to do so. See the link for their discussion on why.

Me? I think Galadriel and Cirdan might also have had a shot at it. Cirdan was accounted the most wise person in ME per JRRT. And Galadriel was schooled at the feet of the Valar themselves back in Valinor, and spent a lot of one on one time with Melian the Maia.
Thank you. Just the thing. Then Sauron's desperate orders to the Tower probably reflect urgency to have back what is his, rather than worry that it might be lost.
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Old 02-08-2020, 06:47 PM
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Me? I think Galadriel and Cirdan might also have had a shot at it. Cirdan was accounted the most wise person in ME per JRRT. And Galadriel was schooled at the feet of the Valar themselves back in Valinor, and spent a lot of one on one time with Melian the Maia.
I suspect Cirdan was wise enough to know not to touch the thing with a bargepole. He freely gave Narya to Gandalf, after all.

Galadriel on the other hand...
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Old 02-08-2020, 08:11 PM
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Wasn't the stated reason Galadriel's exile was lifted by the Valar that she resisted the temptation of the ring? That seems pretty good evidence that her having the ring would be a major threat.

Random orc getting the ring is probably not so much a direct threat to Sauron, but a threat that the orc would go out on his own thinking he was a big shot, and risk drawing the attention of Sauron's enemies.
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Old 02-08-2020, 08:37 PM
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Yeah, the refusal of the One Ring was part of Galadriel's redemption arc.

However, when he died, JRRT was busy re-writing her history so that she wasn't an exile who disobeyed the Valar, but had been faithful all along. Not sure how that would have been retconned to fit the LOTR scenes, though.
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Old 02-08-2020, 08:57 PM
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Random orc captain with the Ring probably wouldn't be an actual threat to Sauron, but he could still make himself quite the inconvenience before he was defeated. And any time the Ring wasn't directly under Sauron's control, there was the risk that it would make its way to someone like Galadriel or Saruman who could be a real threat.
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Old 02-08-2020, 09:01 PM
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Random orc captain with the Ring probably wouldn't be an actual threat to Sauron, but he could still make himself quite the inconvenience before he was defeated. And any time the Ring wasn't directly under Sauron's control, there was the risk that it would make its way to someone like Galadriel or Saruman who could be a real threat.
Ah - and Saruman had subverted some Orcs, so Sauron couldn't trust that any random orc might not be working for the White Hand, not the Lidless Eye.
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Old 02-09-2020, 09:02 AM
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Forgive me but wasn't one of the points of the story that the One Ring is a trap and would do no good for anyone but itself?
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Old 02-09-2020, 10:27 AM
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Forgive me but wasn't one of the points of the story that the One Ring is a trap and would do no good for anyone but itself?
Of course. That doesn't preclude someone extremely mighty using the ring to overthrow Sauron. It just ensures their own corruption.

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Old 02-09-2020, 11:41 AM
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Of course. That doesn't preclude someone extremely mighty using the ring to overthrow Sauron. It just ensures their own corruption.
But if the ring contained much of Sauron's 'power' - doesn't that effectively make the victor the new Sauron?
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Old 02-09-2020, 12:07 PM
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But if the ring contained much of Sauron's 'power' - doesn't that effectively make the victor the new Sauron?
Power, not personality. They'd be corrupted versions of themselves, not Sauron.

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Old 02-09-2020, 06:23 PM
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Power, not personality. They'd be corrupted versions of themselves, not Sauron.
Yep. Sauron is the Dark Lord whom all dread and fear. Galadriel would be the Lady whom all would love and despair.
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Old 02-10-2020, 08:11 AM
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I seem to remember discussion on here that Sheldon would be a pretty big problem if she had obtained the Ring.
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Old 02-10-2020, 08:16 AM
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I seem to remember discussion on here that Sheldon would be a pretty big problem if she had obtained the Ring.
Bazinga!
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Old 02-10-2020, 08:35 AM
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I seem to remember discussion on here that Sheldon would be a pretty big problem if she had obtained the Ring.
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Old 02-10-2020, 08:39 AM
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I seem to remember discussion on here that Sheldon would be a pretty big problem if she had obtained the Ring.
Sheldon did obtain a movie copy of the Ring - and was last seen grappling with Leonard for it...

...Shelob on the other hand would be pretty formidable. It's not clear what powers she inherited from Ungoliant (her mother.)
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Old 02-10-2020, 10:28 AM
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I think we would need to define defeat. Isn't part of the problem that A) You can't fully kill Sauron without destroying the Ring and B) The Ring ultimately wants to get back to Sauron.

So even if Galadriel took the Ring and rose to power, eventually the Ring would betray her and work it's way towards Sauron. At best it's a stall.
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Old 02-10-2020, 10:51 AM
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I think we would need to define defeat. Isn't part of the problem that A) You can't fully kill Sauron without destroying the Ring and B) The Ring ultimately wants to get back to Sauron.

So even if Galadriel took the Ring and rose to power, eventually the Ring would betray her and work it's way towards Sauron. At best it's a stall.
I believe that's incorrect. Gandalf and Galadriel both seem to think that they can destroy Sauron and rule in his place; otherwise it wouldn't be a temptation to try.

Tolkien's letter (quoted in this link) http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringf...#Q1-BeatSauron says that defeat by Gandalf using the Ring would be "for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring" (i.e. complete destruction of the Ring). The Ring would then corrupt Gandalf from its innate evil, but that doesn't do Sauron any good.
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Old 02-10-2020, 11:23 AM
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Yep. Sauron is the Dark Lord whom all dread and fear. Galadriel would be the Lady whom all would love and despair.
And she'd be green.
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Old 02-10-2020, 11:40 AM
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I believe that's incorrect. Gandalf and Galadriel both seem to think that they can destroy Sauron and rule in his place; otherwise it wouldn't be a temptation to try.

Tolkien's letter (quoted in this link) http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringf...#Q1-BeatSauron says that defeat by Gandalf using the Ring would be "for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring" (i.e. complete destruction of the Ring). The Ring would then corrupt Gandalf from its innate evil, but that doesn't do Sauron any good.
Annoying typo. Please replace with

"Tolkien's letter (quoted in this link) http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringf...#Q1-BeatSauron says that defeat by Gandalf using the Ring would be "for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring" (i.e. complete destruction of the Sauron). The Ring would then corrupt Gandalf from its innate evil, but that doesn't do Sauron any good.
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Old 02-10-2020, 12:17 PM
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Yep. Sauron is the Dark Lord whom all dread and fear. Galadriel would be the Lady whom all would love and despair.

I got no problem with that.
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Old 02-10-2020, 12:49 PM
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Annoying typo. Please replace with

"Tolkien's letter (quoted in this link) http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringf...#Q1-BeatSauron says that defeat by Gandalf using the Ring would be "for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring" (i.e. complete destruction of the Sauron). The Ring would then corrupt Gandalf from its innate evil, but that doesn't do Sauron any good.
Good point. Here's the relevant portion from the letter (bolding mine):

Quote:
Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond's words at the Council. Galadriel's rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve. In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force. Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end.
So Tolkien gives pretty good answer.
A) You probably need another Maiar to master the ring.
B) You either defeat Sauron by destroying the ring or mastering the ring (which is nigh impossible to do).
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Old 02-10-2020, 01:54 PM
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"Bazinga!"
Lol! Autocorrect for the win there.
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Old 02-10-2020, 02:05 PM
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I could do it, of course. And had I done so, there'd be no more talk of this "Gandalf" who somehow managed to learn "affect normal fires" but not anything useful in a fight, like fireball, lightning bolt, cloud kill, web, or even stinking cloud. Harrumph. Non-dpsing wizard wannabe. Harrumph. Not my fault I was busy raising hell in Antonica at the time....

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Old 02-10-2020, 05:39 PM
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I think we would need to define defeat. Isn't part of the problem that A) You can't fully kill Sauron without destroying the Ring and B) The Ring ultimately wants to get back to Sauron.

So even if Galadriel took the Ring and rose to power, eventually the Ring would betray her and work it's way towards Sauron. At best it's a stall.
Not if she, Gandalf or someone else mastered the ring. If they master the Ring then it becomes theirs, not Sauron's and Sauron is rendered powerless just as he was when the Ring just as he did when it was destroyed, and for the same reason. Which is also why nobody can master the Ring without being corrupted; they are literally grafting the bulk of Sauron's essence to themselves.

That was one reason Sauron searched so hard for the Ring rather than just waiting for it to makes its way to him. One of the few lose scenarios for him would be someone somewhere quietly gaining the Ring and mastering it without him finding out until too late.
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Old 02-10-2020, 05:43 PM
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Not if she, Gandalf or someone else mastered the ring. If they master the Ring then it becomes theirs, not Sauron's and Sauron is rendered powerless just as he was when the Ring just as he did when it was destroyed, and for the same reason. Which is also why nobody can master the Ring without being corrupted; they are literally grafting the bulk of Sauron's essence to themselves.

That was one reason Sauron searched so hard for the Ring rather than just waiting for it to makes its way to him. One of the few lose scenarios for him would be someone somewhere quietly gaining the Ring and mastering it without him finding out until too late.
What do you figure happens if the Ring winds up with Bombadil?
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Old 02-10-2020, 06:17 PM
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I don't think there's such a thing as "quietly mastering the Ring". The hypothetical finder would master the Ring by making use of it, to do very unsubtle things.
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Old 02-10-2020, 06:22 PM
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What do you figure happens if the Ring winds up with Bombadil?
I'm pretty sure someone (Elrond?) says in the Books that the Ring would have no power over Bombadil and that he would probably just lose it eventually.
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Old 02-10-2020, 06:47 PM
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Good point. Here's the relevant portion from the letter (bolding mine):



So Tolkien gives pretty good answer.
A) You probably need another Maiar to master the ring.
B) You either defeat Sauron by destroying the ring or mastering the ring (which is nigh impossible to do).
Agreed. Gandalf's feint towards the Gates of Mordor suggests that he wishes to convince Sauron that someone has begun to master the Ring, to draw Sauron's forces away from Frodo (someone who has not completely mastered the Ring can still be defeated in battle by overwhelming force - which Sauron has). But it's just as possible that Gandalf's feint works for a different reason - that Sauron just gets a kick out of taunting his doomed foes, and sends his army to the Gates just for fun.
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Old 02-10-2020, 06:48 PM
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I don't think there's such a thing as "quietly mastering the Ring". The hypothetical finder would master the Ring by making use of it, to do very unsubtle things.
The finder would be mastered by the ring even as they used it.
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Old 02-10-2020, 08:04 PM
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Bo Duke, by lulling Sauron to sleep.



Get it? Bo-ring?



Yeehaw!
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Old 02-10-2020, 08:13 PM
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Old 02-11-2020, 06:43 AM
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I could do it, of course. And had I done so, there'd be no more talk of this "Gandalf" who somehow managed to learn "affect normal fires" but not anything useful in a fight, like fireball, lightning bolt, cloud kill, web, or even stinking cloud. Harrumph. Non-dpsing wizard wannabe. Harrumph. Not my fault I was busy raising hell in Antonica at the time....
Cant spell cast and DPS with a long sword at the same time.
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Old 02-11-2020, 06:50 AM
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I think the whole point of the "Ring that binds them all" was that its absolute power corrupted the user absolutely. Even if you could defeat Sauron with it, you would then become a "Sauron" yourself. Even Frodo succumbed to it in the end and wasn't going to throw it into the fire. Only Gollum's lust for it caused him to recklessly seize it and fall into the fire accidentally.
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Old 02-11-2020, 07:05 AM
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I think the whole point of the "Ring that binds them all" was that its absolute power corrupted the user absolutely. Even if you could defeat Sauron with it, you would then become a "Sauron" yourself. Even Frodo succumbed to it in the end and wasn't going to throw it into the fire. Only Gollum's lust for it caused him to recklessly seize it and fall into the fire accidentally.
Eru: "Yessss....'accidentally'"
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Old 02-11-2020, 10:53 AM
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Eru: "Yessss....'accidentally'"
Sam: "Definitely accidentally. Just like Master Frodo said.
Yesssir, nobody put one hand on his leg and grabbed his arm with the other and threw him just like my Gaffer taught me to move sacks of potatoes. Totally just slipped."
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Old 02-11-2020, 03:46 PM
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I think the whole point of the "Ring that binds them all" was that its absolute power corrupted the user absolutely. Even if you could defeat Sauron with it, you would then become a "Sauron" yourself. Even Frodo succumbed to it in the end and wasn't going to throw it into the fire. Only Gollum's lust for it caused him to recklessly seize it and fall into the fire accidentally.
This was the point I was trying to make. The answer is no one because the Ring will corrupt anyone to suit its own whims.
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Old 02-13-2020, 12:31 AM
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The thing about the Ring is that Sauron put almost half of his personal Power in it.
*anyone* that gets the ring and is able to access the totality of that power could be a serious competitor to him, on a personal-power/mystic level.

Of course, actually wielding that sort of Power is way out of range for most mortals. But any of the Istari could do so, by virtue of their basic nature and training. Thus Gandalf, Saruman or even conceivably Radaghast or the almost-unmentioned blue wizards could do so.
Similarly, those of the Elves that had spent enough time training with similar Powers could wield the Ring. Notably the keepers of the Elven rings: Galadriel, Elrond and Cirdan.(Cirdan's ring went to Gandalf later on)

Any of the great leaders of Middle-earth could access a bit of the Ring's power, to boost their ability to present a military opponent to Sauron. But on a personal-power level, the likes of Aragorn would simply not be in the same league. Mighty he may be as counted among Men, but compared to the primordial beings that Sauron or Gandalf are, he is nothing. Even compared to the (original and ancient) Elves like Galadriel , Aragorn is pretty much small change.

Eventually, of course, the One Ring would corrupt anyone who uses it. There was simply too much of Sauron in it.
True mortals would corrupt almost immediately, as Gollum was becoming and as the Ringwraiths were by their lesser Rings.
Higher beings may resist for a longer while, but Gandalf quite clearly states that even he would fall under the Ring's Influence and become a terrible danger himself.

(Although I wonder if this was still true of Gandalf the White. He had been cleansed and Reborn to a much purer state, not truely of Middle-Earth any more and thus might well have been unable to be influenced or wield Sauron's ring afterwards...)
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Old 02-13-2020, 01:11 AM
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I once got to overhear a lively discussion about whether samurai Jerry Seinfeld and ninja George Costanza could, working together, defeat Sauron.

The debate was inconclusive.

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Old 02-13-2020, 05:21 AM
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I personally think anyone of significant power could have. Boromir, Denethor, or Farimer would have stood a chance. That's one of the few things that bothered me about the movies is Farimer's reduced heroism. He was schooled by Gandalf. The other major characters all had a moment of temptation. If I remember correctly Farimer explicitly says "I would not pick it up if I found it on the side of the road". You can argue that this statement kills the seductive power of the ring but I think it just shows how much of a bad ass he was.
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Old 02-13-2020, 05:30 AM
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I have more than once thought Farimer, Eomer, and Samwise represent Tolkien's disdain for the "Upper Class" All lower in class then the main protagonists but smarter and more well equipped to deal with the challenges at hand.
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Old 02-13-2020, 05:37 AM
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Sam: "Definitely accidentally. Just like Master Frodo said.
Yesssir, nobody put one hand on his leg and grabbed his arm with the other and threw him just like my Gaffer taught me to move sacks of potatoes. Totally just slipped."
And hobbits are trustworthy dudes! You wouldn't doubt what they wrote about themselves in their books, would you?
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Old 02-13-2020, 08:06 AM
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Quoth MarvinKitFox:

Eventually, of course, the One Ring would corrupt anyone who uses it. There was simply too much of Sauron in it.
True mortals would corrupt almost immediately, as Gollum was becoming and as the Ringwraiths were by their lesser Rings.
Higher beings may resist for a longer while, but Gandalf quite clearly states that even he would fall under the Ring's Influence and become a terrible danger himself.
I think this is backwards, actually. The "greater" beings would be the first to succumb, while mortals could hold out longer. The being we've seen who was most resistant to the Ring was Samwise, who's as mundane as they come, and Frodo and Bilbo were close behind him. Even Smeagol, despite being a basically evil person even in his own right, still held out far better than the Wise would have expected.
  #45  
Old 02-13-2020, 08:31 AM
mbh is offline
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Someone once wrote that the Rings make you better at what you already are.
Elrond and Galadriel went from being wise, to being Wise.
The dwarf-lords went from being prosperous, to being wealthy.
The Nine went from being mid-level warlords, to being mighty kings.
Smeagol was an incel living in his grandmother's basement. The Ring made him the ultimate incel, living in the Misty Mountains' basement.

With the Ring, Sam would have turned Eriador into the ultimate garden. (Admittedly, with a lot of serpents.)
  #46  
Old 02-13-2020, 09:58 AM
glee is offline
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Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
I think this is backwards, actually. The "greater" beings would be the first to succumb, while mortals could hold out longer. The being we've seen who was most resistant to the Ring was Samwise, who's as mundane as they come, and Frodo and Bilbo were close behind him. Even Smeagol, despite being a basically evil person even in his own right, still held out far better than the Wise would have expected.
I suggest an alternative for a few reasons:

- Hobbits have a natural resistance to the lure of power (I think this is mentioned in the Books)
- Smeagol, Bilbo, Sam and Frodo didn't use the Ring much (basically just for short bursts of Invisibility)
- Smeagol was content to hide out in a dank isolated cave for ages (he never even tried controlling a single goblin)
- Bilbo simply kept the Ring in a drawer for decades
- by contrast Galadriel had visions of controlling all of Middle Earth and Gandalf says (at the Council of Elrond) "If any of the Wise should with the Ring overthrow the Lord of Mordor, using his own arts ... yet another Dark Lord would appear'

P.S. I can confirm my post 29 about Bombadil - from the Council of Elrond, Gandalf says "the Ring has no power over him"and "if he were given the Ring, he would soon forget it or most likely throw it away."
  #47  
Old 02-13-2020, 10:27 AM
The Other Waldo Pepper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glee View Post
P.S. I can confirm my post 29 about Bombadil - from the Council of Elrond, Gandalf says "the Ring has no power over him"and "if he were given the Ring, he would soon forget it or most likely throw it away."
Yeah, I know that he gets described like that. But, to me, the weird part has always been that he doesn’t act like that; he acts like he knows what’s going on, and plans ahead by giving our heroes useful equipment and some sensible advice on what to do in the future (which is ‘call on him for help’ — at which point he comes through for them as expected). I guess my question is, had Gandalf ever even met the guy?
  #48  
Old 02-13-2020, 10:45 AM
glee is offline
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Originally Posted by mbh View Post
Someone once wrote that the Rings make you better at what you already are.
Elrond and Galadriel went from being wise, to being Wise.
The dwarf-lords went from being prosperous, to being wealthy.
The Nine went from being mid-level warlords, to being mighty kings.
Smeagol was an incel living in his grandmother's basement. The Ring made him the ultimate incel, living in the Misty Mountains' basement.

With the Ring, Sam would have turned Eriador into the ultimate garden. (Admittedly, with a lot of serpents.)
I think the Rings amplify your desires, but not necessarily in a good way.

Again from the Council of Elrond, he says "The Three (Elven Rings) ... were not made as weapons of war ... but (for) understanding, making and healing, to preserve". That is why they were still usable (e.g. by Gandalf.)

However the Dwarven Rings may have led initially to wealth, but their owners became obsessed with it and were reduced in the end to misery.

Similarly the Nine became powerful rulers at first, but were reduced in the end to being undead slaves.

Smeagol was taken from being a happy hobbit living in the countryside to a lonely tormented soul stuck in a small cave with no prospect of sunlight.
  #49  
Old 02-13-2020, 11:09 AM
glee is offline
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Originally Posted by The Other Waldo Pepper View Post
Yeah, I know that he gets described like that. But, to me, the weird part has always been that he doesn’t act like that; he acts like he knows what’s going on, and plans ahead by giving our heroes useful equipment and some sensible advice on what to do in the future (which is ‘call on him for help’ — at which point he comes through for them as expected). I guess my question is, had Gandalf ever even met the guy?
I agree that Tom is unique - he may be the oldest inhabitant of Middle Earth (and perhaps immortal?!)
But I think his knowledge mainly covers forests, the Shire and the Barrow Downs. He doesn't seem aware of the situation outside those areas.
As for Gandalf - well he's had around three thousand years to wander Middle Earth (gaining different names from Elves, Dwarves, Men and Hobbits.)
I'm confident that he would have discovered Bombadil at some point!
  #50  
Old 02-13-2020, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glee View Post
I suggest an alternative for a few reasons:

- Hobbits have a natural resistance to the lure of power (I think this is mentioned in the Books)
- Smeagol, Bilbo, Sam and Frodo didn't use the Ring much (basically just for short bursts of Invisibility)
- Smeagol was content to hide out in a dank isolated cave for ages (he never even tried controlling a single goblin)
- Bilbo simply kept the Ring in a drawer for decades
- by contrast Galadriel had visions of controlling all of Middle Earth and Gandalf says (at the Council of Elrond) "If any of the Wise should with the Ring overthrow the Lord of Mordor, using his own arts ... yet another Dark Lord would appear'

P.S. I can confirm my post 29 about Bombadil - from the Council of Elrond, Gandalf says "the Ring has no power over him"and "if he were given the Ring, he would soon forget it or most likely throw it away."
But that's what resisting the power of the Ring is. Sauron crafted it, if memory serves, to bend other minds to his will. The hobbit Ringbearers took so little harm from it - relatively - because they never attempted to do so. Bilbo used it to avoid the Sackville-Baggins, but he never tried to change their personalities to make them less obnoxious. Even Smeagol, as was pointed out above, never tried anything with the Ring other than using the invisibility it granted to hunt. He killed goblins, but never attempted to enslave one.
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