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Old 02-13-2020, 12:13 PM
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How are the flag of Owain Glyndwr and Welsh nationalism viewed outside Wales?


I spent some time in Wales this past fall. My impression was that as we got further west and north (especially into Gwynedd) nationalistic sentiment increased, or at the very least was on more open display. This included more frequent sightings of the flag of Owain Glyndwr.

I have read a little about Welsh nationalism, but not a lot, and know only some basics about the desire for self-determination and some grievances against the English. I talked a little to people in Wales, but not in any depth.

I am wondering how is Welsh nationalism is viewed outside Wales. And I suppose also inside Wales.
Is it controversial/problematic similar to the way Sinn Fein is controversial outside (and probably inside) Ireland?

Is flag of Owain Glyndwr recognized outside Wales and if so, what kind of connotations does it carry?
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Old 02-13-2020, 12:29 PM
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Never heard of that flag that I can recall. Don't have any real impression of Welsh nationalism at all, although I've heard some vague things about it, mostly in conjunctions with Scottish independence and Brexit.
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Old 02-13-2020, 12:48 PM
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I don't recognize that flag at all, and I suspect that most Americans (except maybe those of Welsh descent) wouldn't, either. For that matter, it wouldn't surprise me if most Americans wouldn't recognize the Welsh flag, either.

I also don't think that most Americans would know much about Welsh nationalism or the Welsh self-determination movement, but that's probably largely a factor of many Americans not having a lot of knowledge (or curiosity) about internal politics in other countries.

I listen to the BBC a fair amount, and watch BBC World News, and even so, I don't recall hearing/seeing much of anything about Welsh nationalism there. I'm far more familiar with the Scottish movement (at least in part because they've had an actual referendum on the topic).
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Old 02-13-2020, 12:48 PM
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Zero recognition and if it is known, zero negative.

The only UK nationalist flag that might contain negative connotations when flown is the English flag, i.e. red cross on white.
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Old 02-13-2020, 01:02 PM
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Whales have flags?
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Old 02-13-2020, 01:27 PM
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I'm aware of Welsh nationalism solely due to a recent episode of "The Crown". I'm guessing that a majority of Americans who do know about it are in the same boat.
ETA: No idea on the Owain Glyndwr flag, though I was aware of the green & white flag with a red dragon on it.

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Old 02-13-2020, 01:35 PM
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I've only ever heard of Welsh nationalism in the context of Plaid Cymru and how they fit into the balance of power in Parliament. Those Americans who've even heard of Sinn Fein probably have a negative association due to the party's connections to the Provisional IRA. The SNP is more familiar in this country due to the Scottish independence referendum, and Nicola Sturgeon's role in trying to stop Brexit.

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Old 02-13-2020, 01:45 PM
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The SNP is more familiar in this country due to the Scottish independence referendum, and Nicola Sturgeon's role in trying to stop Brexit.
And, by "more familiar," we're likely talking about "familiar to maybe 5-10% of Americans, as opposed to the less than 1% of Americans who know anything about Wales."
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Old 02-13-2020, 02:09 PM
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I lived in the UK for a number of years, got a degree up in Scotland, flat-shared with a future SNP-staffer who was TOTALLY into 'reasons why English domination sucks', my parents are still English-based and my brother used to live in Cardiff ... and I barely even know that Welsh Nationalism is a thing. So that gives you some idea! My impression is that in the nationalistic fervour stakes, among the 'junior partners' to the Union, the ordering is Northern Ireland top, then Scotland, then a biiiig gap, then Wales.

That may be unfair to Welsh Nationalists. They have managed to keep their national language alive, probably more than any other not-originally-English-speaking part of the Union. But there's no way Welsh Nationalists would ever be remotely as controversial as Sinn Fein, who are associated with people who used to actually blow shit up (and people) on a regular basis.

My main association with the flag of Owain Glyndwr comes from the time when my former housemate went off with some mates and chained themselves to the railings around the Stone of Scone to protest the "chaining of Scotland to the English Government". They unfurled a Lion Rampant of Scotland as part of the whole thing, and guess which flag a bemused tour guide thought it was?

Considering that the Lion Rampant looks like this and the flag of Owain Glyndwr looks like this ... an understandable mistake!
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Old 02-13-2020, 02:28 PM
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Visiting Wales last August, I picked up a book entitled "Neighbours from Hell: English Attitudes toward the Welsh" by Mike Parker.

There's nothing about the flag per se, but it does touch on "how Welsh nationalism is viewed" in England.

Parker, who himself is English, chronicles a litany of centuries of English contempt for and condescension to the Welsh.

To wit: in England a stereotype was long fostered that the Welsh were cunning, overemotional, lazy, and generally inferior. Even the private use of the Welsh language was suppressed on the grounds that it was incomprehensible and anti-modern. And some English who moved to Wales saw themselves as being on a civilizing mission.

Basically, Welsh interest in strengthening Welsh language use was condemned by some in England as "extremist" and akin to IRA terrorism [!] One of the tabloids called the annual Welsh cultural event, the Eisteddfod, a "Festival of Fear and Hatred" and warned it would spur violence.

The book is polemical but very well documented, and shockingly, several examples of blatant anti-Welsh prejudice are from the last couple of decades.
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Old 02-13-2020, 02:49 PM
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Whales have flags?
Clams got legs.

My knowledge of Wales pretty much begins and ends with "Charles is the Prince of it."
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Old 02-13-2020, 02:58 PM
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Clams got legs.
I got that reference!

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Old 02-13-2020, 03:11 PM
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My three brothers live in Cardiff, and they've only reported Welsh 'nationalism' based on rugby tournaments. Though, despite being the capital of Wales, Cardiff is no doubt less nationalist, more cosmopolitan than the West and North of the country, as the OP suggests. Also, I get the impression that Welsh nationalists aren't generally looking for separation from the rest of the UK, just more powers devolved from Westminster, which is inherrently less extreme.
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Old 02-13-2020, 05:13 PM
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And, by "more familiar," we're likely talking about "familiar to maybe 5-10% of Americans, as opposed to the less than 1% of Americans who know anything about Wales."
Quite. And Scottish news probably catches the eye of Scottish-Americans interested in the "old country", who outnumber similarly minded Welsh-Americans.
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Old 02-13-2020, 06:39 PM
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Whales have flags?
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Clams got legs.
Sheep are nervous.
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Old 02-13-2020, 08:14 PM
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I spent some time in Wales this past fall. My impression was that as we got further west and north (especially into Gwynedd) nationalistic sentiment increased, or at the very least was on more open display. This included more frequent sightings of the flag of Owain Glyndwr.
I would guess not one in a thousand people in the English-speaking world outside Wales and parts of the UK knows who Owain Glyndwr was, or what his flag looks like.

The fact Welsh nationalism even exists isn't something most people know.
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Old 02-13-2020, 08:53 PM
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To wit: in England a stereotype was long fostered that the Welsh were cunning, overemotional, lazy, and generally inferior. Even the private use of the Welsh language was suppressed on the grounds that it was incomprehensible and anti-modern. And some English who moved to Wales saw themselves as being on a civilizing mission.
I thought the Tudor dynasty was originally from Wales. They ruled England for a pretty long time. How is this stereotype of the Welsh reconciled with that? Or is it a matter of "the Welsh schemed their way into controlling the country, and produced a bunch of overemotional, lazy, inferior kings and queens who did a shitty job of running the country?"
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Old 02-13-2020, 08:55 PM
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I would guess not one in a thousand people in the English-speaking world outside Wales and parts of the UK knows who Owain Glyndwr was, or what his flag looks like.

The fact Welsh nationalism even exists isn't something most people know.
I'm not sure one in 1000 people in England know who Owain Glyndwr is.

I wouldn't recognise the flag of Owain Glyndwr. I'm English but I've spent a lot of time in Wales. I have seen the flag, now that I'm reminded of it, once or twice, during football matches, but I would never be able to look at it and say yeah, that's the flag of Owain Glyndwr. Usually they just fly the Welsh flag.

Welsh nationalism is more about keeping the Welsh language alive than anything else, and even in areas like Chester where people don't get jobs due to not speaking Welsh, people seem to accept the efforts to keep Welsh alive (and they're successful efforts, too). There wasn't any resistance in the rest of the UK to the Welsh National Assembly, and it seems to function pretty well, but it's much too small a country to function as an independent entity - Plaid Cymru, the Welsh nationalist party that does well in elections, doesn't even advocate for that.

It'd be really surprising if people outside the UK recognised a flag that is barely known in the UK, looks a lot like a different flag, and isn't usually used because there's another cooler one with a dragon on it.
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Old 02-13-2020, 09:05 PM
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I would guess not one in a thousand people in the English-speaking world outside Wales and parts of the UK knows who Owain Glyndwr was, or what his flag looks like.
I didn't know about the flag, or Welsh nationalism in general, but I know of Owain Glyndwr in the form of "Owen Glendower", the character in Shakespeare's Henry IV, Part 1. Shakespeare portrays him as a boastful but ultimately not very effective rebel who has magical powers (or at least thinks he does).

I suspect that to the extent that most people outside Wales know about Glyndwr, it's through Shakespeare. I've seen at least one Welsh writer call Shakespeare's portrayal racist and bigoted, so perhaps it's debatable whether reading Henry IV really constitutes "knowing" him.
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Old 02-13-2020, 10:09 PM
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I didn't know about the flag, or Welsh nationalism in general, but I know of Owain Glyndwr in the form of "Owen Glendower", the character in Shakespeare's Henry IV, Part 1. Shakespeare portrays him as a boastful but ultimately not very effective rebel who has magical powers (or at least thinks he does).

I suspect that to the extent that most people outside Wales know about Glyndwr, it's through Shakespeare. I've seen at least one Welsh writer call Shakespeare's portrayal racist and bigoted, so perhaps it's debatable whether reading Henry IV really constitutes "knowing" him.
Similarly, I suspect most people, or at least those who don't think Shakespeare made him up from whole cloth, think that MacBeth really did murder King Duncan in his sleep, to usurp his throne. In reality, Mac Bethad mac Findláich killed King Donnchad mac Crinian in battle, after Donnchad invaded his lands with a large army, presumably to punish him.
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Old 02-13-2020, 10:42 PM
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Every time I see that flag I imagine the lions are listening to Thriller.
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Old 02-13-2020, 11:40 PM
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I would have recognized it as being Welsh if I had seen it, but only because it's very similar to the arms of Llywelyn the Great that are used by the Prince of Wales. Had I not stopped to look at it, I would have assumed it was the same thing, and at most I'd have guessed that it was similar to the situation in Scotland where the royal banner has turned into a generic patriotic thing.

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Old 02-14-2020, 12:27 AM
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I know a fair amount of medieval Welsh history and have an assorted few books on the subject( though to be honest mostly more focused on English marchers than native Welsh polities ). So I am well acquainted with Owain Glyndwr and his history.

But I know very little about modern Welsh nationalism, other than it a.)exists and b.)it isn't particularly prominent from a separatist pov.
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Old 02-14-2020, 02:42 AM
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but it's much too small a country to function as an independent entity
Wales is the same size as Slovenia, with a bigger population. It has a much bigger population than Iceland. Both Slovenia and Iceland function successfully as independent entities.
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Old 02-14-2020, 03:15 AM
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Wales is the same size as Slovenia, with a bigger population. It has a much bigger population than Iceland. Both Slovenia and Iceland function successfully as independent entities.
Wales also has a larger GDP than Slovenia or Iceland or, indeed, several other European countries.

Having said that, Wales is obviously going to be in the shadow of a single much larger neighbour, economically, socially and culturally, in a way that Iceland and Slovenia are not. But I don't see that as a fundamental obstacle to Welsh independence.
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Old 02-14-2020, 04:39 AM
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Full disclosure. My wife is Welsh and I live on the border (I was in Cardiff yesterday).

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I spent some time in Wales this past fall. My impression was that as we got further west and north (especially into Gwynedd) nationalistic sentiment increased, or at the very least was on more open display. This included more frequent sightings of the flag of Owain Glyndwr.
Wales has a sharp 'north/south' divide. Northerners/Westerners speak more Welsh as a first language, are generally more nationalistic, live in rural communities. Southern Welsh (like my wife) tend to speak English as a first language, live in more industrial communities, and look down on northerners as country bumpkins (actually she calls them 'gogs' - which is to do with their accents).

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I have read a little about Welsh nationalism, but not a lot, and know only some basics about the desire for self-determination and some grievances against the English. I talked a little to people in Wales, but not in any depth.
Welsh people are fiercely patriotic, proud of their language, singing and devotion to rugby, but they tend to have less desire for independance than Scots or certain portions of Northern Ireland. There's a recognition, certainly amongst southern Welsh, that their economic health rests with strong relationships with England.

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I am wondering how is Welsh nationalism is viewed outside Wales. And I suppose also inside Wales.
Is it controversial/problematic similar to the way Sinn Fein is controversial outside (and probably inside) Ireland?
There was a surge of Welsh nationalism in the 70s/80s which mostly manifested in torching of holiday homes owned by English people. But these days, not so much. It has never been anything CLOSE to Sinn Fein/IRA.

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Is flag of Owain Glyndwr recognized outside Wales and if so, what kind of connotations does it carry?
Big fat no to this one.
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Old 02-14-2020, 05:59 AM
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I was in Wales for a week and a half last year and saw the flag of Owain Glyndwr a couple of times, but didn’t know what it was. I thought it was a Welsh royal standard, although now I see that’s somewhat different.

I think Welsh nationalism and Welsh independence are two different things, and are viewed very differently. Welsh nationalism seems to be mainly cultural. Things I identify with Welsh national identity include the Welsh language, singing, rugby, sheep, mining, and a few food specialties. Other than occasional snide comments from Jeremy Clarkson and that type, I think all of these cultural identity aspects are viewed favourably. Independence is the political side and has two aspects: devolution and full independence. My general impression is that most English people are generally neutral or slightly in favour of devolution. Economically, Wales is behind most of the rest of Britain, and a one-size-fits-all approach from London doesn’t suit Wales. Some people complain that Welsh residents receive benefits that English residents don’t, and that that is unfair to the poorer English regions. However, those complaints are seldom in the news, and funding aside, no one seems bothered about the Welsh National Assembly. Full independence I mainly associate with the Plaid Cymru political party. They’ve got a few members in the UK Parliament, and several in the Welsh National Assembly, but they’re a minor group. I think most English people are aware of them, but don’t really pay them much attention. I’d guess they’re slightly more newsworthy in Scotland and Northern Ireland, but that’s just a guess.
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Old 02-14-2020, 06:17 AM
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My knowledge of Owain Glyndwr begins and ends with Horrible Histories' Tom Jones parody song about him. That said, it's pretty informative despite all the Tom Jones jokes.

Last edited by Gyrate; 02-14-2020 at 06:19 AM.
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Old 02-14-2020, 07:23 AM
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I'm not sure one in 1000 people in England know who Owain Glyndwr is.
I'm familiar with him as "Owain ap Gruffydd", but I wouldn't have recognized this version of the name before I Googled it.

The only Welsh flag I know is the red dragon on green and white.
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Old 02-14-2020, 08:01 AM
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Wales also has a larger GDP than Slovenia or Iceland or, indeed, several other European countries.
Having a larger GDP than Iceland, a country with about one ninth the population, isn't much of an accomplishment.
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Old 02-14-2020, 08:58 AM
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I may be wrong about this, but my impression is that Plaid Cymru (="The Party of Wales" note, not "The Welsh National Party", which may be a clue) has historically been more about preservation and promotion of the language and culture rather than aiming directly for full political/constitutional independence. Which is one of the reasons why devolution to the Assembly covers a less extensive range of responsibilities than is the case for Scotland and Northern Ireland.

(I should say I'm English, but guiltily aware that I know more of continental European languages and cultures than I do of my own country's other constituents).
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Old 02-14-2020, 12:09 PM
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Thanks, everyone. Your comments and insights have been helpful.

Sounds like if I walk around town with a Cofiwch Dryweryn coffee mug or an Owen Glyndwr flag no one is likely to say boo.
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Old 02-14-2020, 01:29 PM
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Thanks, everyone. Your comments and insights have been helpful.

Sounds like if I walk around town with a Cofiwch Dryweryn coffee mug or an Owen Glyndwr flag no one is likely to say boo.
Honestly, I'd never even heard of the Owain Glyndwr flag before reading this thread, and never seen it until Aspidistra posted a link. I've only ever seen the red dragon on a green and white field Welsh flag. And I'm a nerd about those sorts of things.
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Old 02-14-2020, 06:41 PM
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Wales is the same size as Slovenia, with a bigger population. It has a much bigger population than Iceland. Both Slovenia and Iceland function successfully as independent entities.
That's true. I'll change it to, it would be difficult for it to function as an independent country. Unlike Iceland, Wales has been tied to another, bigger country that's right next door, for hundreds of years. The Slovenia situation is closer, so I'll give you that.
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Old 02-14-2020, 07:16 PM
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I'll celebrate Wales winning in football but never Scotland.
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Old 02-14-2020, 09:19 PM
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Visiting Wales last August, I picked up a book entitled "Neighbours from Hell: English Attitudes toward the Welsh" by Mike Parker.

There's nothing about the flag per se, but it does touch on "how Welsh nationalism is viewed" in England.

Parker, who himself is English, chronicles a litany of centuries of English contempt for and condescension to the Welsh.

To wit: in England a stereotype was long fostered that the Welsh were cunning, overemotional, lazy, and generally inferior. Even the private use of the Welsh language was suppressed on the grounds that it was incomprehensible and anti-modern. And some English who moved to Wales saw themselves as being on a civilizing mission.

Basically, Welsh interest in strengthening Welsh language use was condemned by some in England as "extremist" and akin to IRA terrorism [!] One of the tabloids called the annual Welsh cultural event, the Eisteddfod, a "Festival of Fear and Hatred" and warned it would spur violence.

The book is polemical but very well documented, and shockingly, several examples of blatant anti-Welsh prejudice are from the last couple of decades.
Yes indeed.

From Evelyn Waugh's Decline and Fall:

Quote:
Ten men of revolting appearance were approaching from the drive They were low of brow, crafty of eye and crooked of limb They advanced huddled together with the loping tread of wolves, peering about them furtively as they came, as though in constant terror of ambush, they slavered at their mouths, which hung loosely over their recedmg chins, while each clutched under his ape-like arm a burden of curious and unaccountable shape. On seeing the Doctor they halted and edged back, those behind squinting and moulting over their companions’ shoulders.

. . .

From the earliest times the Welsh have been looked upon as an unclean people. It is thus that they have preserved their racial integrity. Their sons and daughters rarely mate with human-kind except their own blood relations. In Wales there was no need for legislation to prevent the conquering people intermarrying with the conquered. In Ireland that was necessary, for there intermarriage was a political matter. In Wales it was moral.

. . .

The Welsh," said the Doctor, "are the only nation in the world that has produced no graphic or plastic art, no architecture, no drama. They just sing," he said with disgust, "sing and blow down wind instruments of plated silver...."
It's supposed to be funny. And it is, very, on the whole. But this description of the Welsh is a bit over the top.
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Old 02-14-2020, 10:12 PM
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Every time I see that flag I imagine the lions are listening to Thriller.

Every time I see that flag, I imagine Welsh Royalty dancing under strobe lights to trance music in Ibiza.
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Old 02-15-2020, 08:45 AM
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It is worth noting here that people who live in the UK have an easy and full understanding of the conceptual difference between a country and a nation-state that people elsewhere often don't have because they have no familiarity with such a thing. Someone living in the UK fully understands that Scotland, for instance, is a country, but that it exists in a larger state, because people who live in the UK are used to that concept. It's part of their civics education. It's what they live.

My fellow Canadians generally do not entirely comprehend that. It's very weird to us, as evidenced by the passionate ongoing debates over Quebec's being a nation or not or whatever. To people here, or in the USA or Australia or Japan or lots of places, the world is divided into nation-states. That's why it's so often the case that we fuck up the distinction between the UK and England.

Wales, consequently, to many and likely most people, just isn't a place that really even exists as a country.
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Old 02-15-2020, 09:21 AM
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This is the first I've heard of any significant Welsh nationalist movement. Scotland and Ireland I'm well aware of, especially since Brexit is likely to make both of those movements considerably more heated, and I don't think that's just because of my ancestry (I have significant Irish ancestry that I identify with, but no Scottish that I know of). But so far as I knew, the vast majority of Welsh were perfectly fine with being united with England.

For flags, I know that Wales has a cross flag that's one of the three crosses in the Union Jack, but I couldn't tell you which one. And I also know that there's a dragon rampant associated with Wales, but now that I think of it, I couldn't tell you if it's the green or red one. I have no idea who Owain Glyndwr was, nor which of those two symbols was his. If I saw either of those flags flying outside of a Welsh home, I would assume that it was meant as a symbol of cultural heritage, not of nationalism (and yes, those are two very distinct things). Likewise the Welsh language: One can be proud of one's people's poetry and literature, without believing that they should be an independent nation.
  #40  
Old 02-15-2020, 09:35 AM
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>> How are the flag of Owain Glyndwr and Welsh nationalism viewed outside Wales?

My guess is probably on a computer. Certainly, that's how I would view them. These sorts of things don't get a lot of media attention in the USA. (We're currently in a bit of a nationalist moment. Sorry about that.)
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Old 02-15-2020, 09:37 AM
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ETA: comment on post by Chronos

No, Wales isn’t represented in the Union flag.

The Union flag started out as a merger of the English flag (cross of St George: red cross on white background) combined with the Scots flag (white cross saltire or a blue background). Then the St Patrick’s cross (red saltire on white background) was added when Ireleandnwas merged into the UK in the early 19th century.

All of that happened long after Wales was merged under full English control by Henry VIII. There was no thought of adding any Welsh symbolism to the English cross of St George.

Instead, Wales has the kickass dragon flag.
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Last edited by Northern Piper; 02-15-2020 at 09:38 AM.
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Old 02-15-2020, 09:48 AM
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Here’s links to the flags that make up the Union flag, plus the flag of Wales.

English flag: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_England

Scots flag: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Scotland

Union flag (1603-1801): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_...1707–1800).svg

Cross of Saint Patrick: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Patrick%27s_Saltire

Union flag (1801 to ?): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_...ed_Kingdom.svg

Flag of Wales: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Wales
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Old 02-15-2020, 10:29 AM
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Looking at the various Welsh flags, it seems to me that the flag of Owen Glendwr is very similar to the flag of the Prince of Wales. Can folks tell the difference from a distance? Is it obvious in context which one is being displayed?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Welsh_flags
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Old 02-18-2020, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by RickJay View Post
It is worth noting here that people who live in the UK have an easy and full understanding of the conceptual difference between a country and a nation-state that people elsewhere often don't have because they have no familiarity with such a thing. Someone living in the UK fully understands that Scotland, for instance, is a country, but that it exists in a larger state, because people who live in the UK are used to that concept. It's part of their civics education. It's what they live.

My fellow Canadians generally do not entirely comprehend that. It's very weird to us, as evidenced by the passionate ongoing debates over Quebec's being a nation or not or whatever. To people here, or in the USA or Australia or Japan or lots of places, the world is divided into nation-states. That's why it's so often the case that we fuck up the distinction between the UK and England.
The idea of a nation isn't very complicated: it's a large group of people with a shared history, culture, often language or religion, and a sense of their own identity as a distinct people. And I'm fairly convinced you and other Canadians are familiar with the idea. Do you, for example, think of Kurds as a nation? What about Uyghurs, or Tibetans? I sure do, and I think most Canadians would as well. Kurds may not be exactly a "country" in UK parlance, being divided between several independent countries (although I understand the Iraqi Kurdistan is fairly autonomous), but there exist Uyghur and Tibetan "countries", even if they are largely dominated by the central government of China.

In the same vein, I'm perfectly fine with the Welsh being one of the UK's constituent nations, and Wales being that nation's home country. I don't think there's anything strange or foreign about this idea. Interestingly, Wales in French is always called le pays de Galles, or literally "the Country of Wales". As for the question in the OP, I'd never heard about the flag of Owain Glyndŵr and at first thought it referred to the flag of Wales which I am familiar with. I've heard of Welsh nationalism, but as I understand it's a less important political force than Scottish nationalism. Still more important than Cornish nationalism though.

If many Canadians oppose the idea of Quebec being a nation, I don't think it's because they don't understand what that means or think the idea is weird. It's because Canadian nation-building has focused on the idea of Canada being essentially a "post-national nation" for lack of a better term. If Canada is defined by its lack of a national culture and any culture that develops in Canada is "Canadian", then there cannot be nations existing inside Canada other than the Canadian nation itself. I don't buy this idea of course, I think there exists a Canadian national culture and it's essentially Ontarian culture with some added elements, but it is an idea that's very prevalent in Canadian thought.
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Old 02-18-2020, 08:36 PM
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I'm not really familiar with the flag, but I do know it from Roger Waters's song "Sunset Strip" on Radio KAOS.

"And I sit in the canyon with my back to the sea
There's a blood red dragon on a field of green
Calling me back, back to the Black Hills again."
  #46  
Old 02-18-2020, 08:57 PM
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I find that my fellow Americans largely don’t grasp the differences among the concepts of countries, nations, and states. They use “country” and “nation” interchangeably and largely understand “state” to be a subdivision of a country.
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Last edited by Acsenray; 02-18-2020 at 08:58 PM.
  #47  
Old 02-19-2020, 02:35 AM
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Originally Posted by breezman View Post
I'm not really familiar with the flag, but I do know it from Roger Waters's song "Sunset Strip" on Radio KAOS.

"And I sit in the canyon with my back to the sea
There's a blood red dragon on a field of green
Calling me back, back to the Black Hills again."
No, that's the Welsh national flag, which is well known throughout the UK. The thread is about a different flag, with lions on it. To answer the OP's question, I would not have recognised the flag of OG.
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Old 02-19-2020, 05:37 AM
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As a further footnote on how Welsh nationalism is viewed, I don't think it's ever been established whether it was an English or Welsh person who amended the occasional "Free Wales" graffiti by adding "With every five gallons".

AFAIK all that was back in the 60s, when there were vocal campaigns about the status of the language, and a handful of ham-fisted would-be guerrillas were caught. Since then, Welsh has much more official status in public services, education and broadcasting, as well as devolved government over a range of issues.
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Old 02-19-2020, 05:58 AM
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Huh, I had thought that the three crosses of the Union Jack were England, Wales, and Scotland. I never would have guessed that they'd omit Wales, nor that they'd include Ireland. Color me educated.

And I didn't even get the dragon right, either. I thought that it was rampant, when it's actually passant. Still, if I were in Wales, and saw any flag, crest, or similar symbol which included a dragon in any posture, I'd have guessed that it was the Welsh dragon.
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Old 02-19-2020, 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Motorgirl View Post
Is flag of Owain Glyndwr recognized outside Wales and if so, what kind of connotations does it carry?
It means "National Eisteddfod" to me.
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