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  #101  
Old 02-14-2020, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by PitJ View Post
The moral high ground is not on the top of my priority list but you are right, I have failed to answer Miller. This was perhaps because I thought I had made my point clear a bit further up, where I said:

Thank you for pointing this out. Surely I would be polite enough to use the epiphet someone tells or asks me to use for him. But I refuse to ask everybody first about any pronoun preference, and I also refuse to cover all possible form of gender or not in public speech. For me, "Ladies and Gentlemen" suffices.

Have a nice weekend
PitJ
That doesn't even remotely address my comment.
  #102  
Old 02-14-2020, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by dorvann View Post
As for whether not Jordan Peterson is "alt-right" I would like to point out that a main proponent of the "alt-right", Vox Day, wrote a whole book criticizing Peterson and his "philosophy".

https://www.amazon.com/Jordanetics-J...1717621&sr=8-7
The alt-right is not a monolithic group. They disagree all the time. It part of their strength, as it allows any part to deny they are connected with any other part. What you have to do is look at their audience, and how well respected they are in the alt-right community.

Peterson has a huge alt-right audience, and is highly respected in the alt-right community. He is part of what is commonly called the "Intellectual Dark Web," which is where people spreading hateful ideologies claim that they are being censored. Any time you encounter someone on the right who talks about how "They don't want you to know this," they're generally part of the IDW.

The IDW and other "alt-lite" setups may not be as explicitly alt-right, but they do have a tunneling effect. The fandom is largely alt-right, and simply watching content that promotes these guys will mean that you will get more alt-right stuff recommended to you, and not the stuff that debunks them. So you get pulled further in.

The above isn't idle speculation. This effect has been studied by sociologists, because the way it is growing is not as expected. Unfortunately, the best summary I know is in the form of a video presentation to academics, and the best layman's summary is by the same guy in a formatted video.

The fact is, Peterson has a high alt-right fanbase who interpret what he says in alt-right ways, and he does not actually disavow them. He'll disavow "white nationalism," but the alt-right did the whole renaming thing so that white nationalism isn't what they claim to be.

And, given how NP has shown that his whole initial rise was predicated on a falsehood, it's pretty easy to believe that he's aware and knowingly doing this. When he pretends that he's being forced to use specific pronouns for trans people or lose his job, he's already lying to find a sympathetic audience.
  #103  
Old 02-14-2020, 06:34 PM
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His criticism of the gender pronoun issue highlights one of my points above. He says "people feel oppressed if they feel they are not addressed with the right pronoun. So what if they are? Everybody is oppressed in some way. Stop whining and get over it! Plus, stop oppressing others with your need for your personal pronoun. There are more important things in life." Pressuring people into some specific language because of someone else's windchill oppression is a sort of language fascism which he detests. I wholeheartedly agree.
And this is a perfect encapsulation of why his arguments are bad. First off, it's self-defeating: if the pronoun thing is no big deal, then why does it offend him so much? A rational person says "This is not a big deal to me, but it's a big deal to them, so I will do what they want." The irrational person says "This shouldn't be a big deal to them because it isn't a big deal to me, so I won't do what they want."

Of course, the claim that it's not a big deal is false--that is just what he thinks. But he's not transgender. To a trans person, using the wrong pronoun is misgendering, and causes dysphoria. The whole reason a trans person transitions is because it allows them to stop being misgendered, which helps with their dysphoria.

And, well, if you want to use the wrong pronouns, it's an indication of something deeper. It's not just that you used the wrong pronoun--it's that you reject that trans people even exist. And, if they don't actually exist, then they don't need rights.

I ultimately don't call a trans woman "she" because she wants me to, but because I accept that she is female, as all the science on gender and sex shows. The "basic politeness" is the argument you tell bigots to get them started, because, once they use the right language, they tend to also start being open to new ideas. Get Uncle Bob to stop saying the n-word, and it becomes easier for him to accept black people.

And, finally, any argument based on "There are worse things in the world" is a bad argument. There are always worse things in the world. That doesn't mean that you can't deal with less bad things. The answer is not "don't do anything about it," as that just keeps us stuck where we are.

He clearly believes in fighting oppression, as he styles himself as being oppressed because trans people want him to use the correct pronouns and accept that they are real. And he fights that "oppression." But he doesn't afford that right to others. Others should just shut up and "stop whining."

I may have sympathy over the benzo thing, but none of that means I give a pass for shitty logic that occurred before all that. Bully logic isn't good logic. Good logic ironically results in people caring about the feelings of others. It's rational.
  #104  
Old 02-14-2020, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by BigT View Post
And, given how NP has shown that his whole initial rise was predicated on a falsehood, it's pretty easy to believe that he's aware and knowingly doing this. When he pretends that he's being forced to use specific pronouns for trans people or lose his job, he's already lying to find a sympathetic audience.
I remember the time he wanted to dedicate a website to the curating of lists of courses and professors that he believed contributed to the downfall of society (Black/Gender/Women's studies, English lit., Antro, philosophy, etc.).

U of T prof’s proposed website would target professors teaching women’s and ethnic studies
Quote:
The proposed new site — once under development but currently on hold — is an “information website,” Peterson told the Star on Friday.

In a video from a meeting of U of T’s Students in Support of Free Speech in June, Peterson said the website would enable students to enter university course descriptions, as well as professors’ names, disciplines and places of work, to find out if the course was in what he judges to be a “corrupt” discipline, and then decide for themselves whether they want to take the course and “become a social justice warrior.”
Get it? He's asking his followers to report local "SJW" academics to him so that he can gather and publish their names/info. Free speech Peterson. He ultimately had to nix the idea due to the clear harassing nature of it.

He instead started his own unaccredited "online university" from which he continues to bilk cash from his followers today (one of his many grifting scams).

Last edited by orcenio; 02-14-2020 at 06:55 PM.
  #105  
Old 02-14-2020, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by PitJ View Post
His criticism of the gender pronoun issue highlights one of my points above. He says "people feel oppressed if they feel they are not addressed with the right pronoun. So what if they are? Everybody is oppressed in some way. Stop whining and get over it! Plus, stop oppressing others with your need for your personal pronoun. There are more important things in life." Pressuring people into some specific language because of someone else's windchill oppression is a sort of language fascism which he detests. I wholeheartedly agree.
Just curious about how far you take this.

Suppose a university professor habitually addresses black students in his class as "n________s", Jewish students as "k_____s", East Asian students as "ch______s", and gay students as "f___s."

And suppose the university starts professional discipline proceedings against the professor.

Would that be the "language fascism" which you detest?

Or is it only when "gender confused" people (your phrase, not mine) ask that certain terms not be used that they should just shut up and deal with it?
  #106  
Old 02-14-2020, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by orcenio View Post
He instead started his own unaccredited "online university" from which he continues to bilk cash from his followers today (one of his many grifting scams).
In the linked article they show a screen shot of his Patreon account with $56,000 a month income. Hate speech sells -- or wins you presidencies.
  #107  
Old 02-14-2020, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by puddleglum View Post
He decided to give up the safety of the campus to debate ideas and has attracted criticism from some of the most evil people in the world.
More curiosity on my part : puddleglum, who are the"most evil people in the world" who are ganging up on Dr Peterson?

By way of comparison, here's one web-site's take on the 10 most evil people in world history: https://wealthygorilla.com/most-evil-people-history/

All but one are dead, but they all racked up scary kill lists. So I'm wondering who is the modern day, living equivalents, the "most evil people" who are threatening Dr Peterson?

Last edited by Northern Piper; 02-14-2020 at 11:55 PM.
  #108  
Old Yesterday, 12:06 AM
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His beef was that the law affected him! Not because he hires people, or is a landlord, but because of “forced pronoun usage”! “Free speech violation!” “Political correctness gone crazy!”
Is it that or because it sells with the angry white men?

I hadn't paid that much attention to him before. One Canadian guy (of a similar age as him) in one of my real life groups had linked a post to a YouTube video of him and I only watched enough to get turned off.

After reading this thread, I looked a bit online and watched a bit more of him, including the clip a linked to previously about Hitler and how the crowd and Hitler feed off of each other, making the progression to gas chambers sound like natural progression.

I don't see Peterson as the next Hitler or as a neo-Nazi, but he is far too much of an expert for him to not be aware of the dynamics at play.
  #109  
Old Yesterday, 12:01 PM
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It seems to me that JP has managed to monetize and exploit the white nationalists, misogynists, incels and various other dregs of society. All with a, "Gosh, who me? Don't get me wrong!..." act that gives those who support him the thinnest veneer of plausible deniability.

Given the news of his seriously declining health, I'm guessing his 15 minutes of infamy are coming to an end. May his contributions be relegated to the dustbin of bad ideas throughout history.
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  #110  
Old Yesterday, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by PitJ View Post
I think that voices like his should be heard as they complete the picture.
Voices like his that argue dishonestly from false premises complete the picture? I guess they do complete a picture.
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  #111  
Old Yesterday, 12:20 PM
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When I listen to Jordan Peterson, I am strongly reminded of another moralizing grifter who liked to pound the table about the primacy of male personal responsibility, except Peterson has adjusted his pitch for the self-congratulating "facts and logic" crowd. People went nuts over him as a male role model until he ended up convicted of drugging and raping a number of women.

I am of course talking about Bill Cosby here. That's who Jordan Peterson reminds me of. Sit up straight, eat your vegetables, and what is "rape", really?
  #112  
Old Yesterday, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible View Post
Peterson has adjusted his pitch for the self-congratulating "facts and logic" crowd.
I resent that framing. Like most Dopers I'm a facts and logic evangelist and I think JP makes trivially debunkable claims when he speaks factually, and just plain old shite the rest of the time (eg fluffy talk about archetypes that's rarely linked to concrete claims).

Its more like the "tell it like it is" crowd; where telling it like it is is of course a good thing in the abstract, but we can all appreciate how that notion now seems to mean "say the offensive, bigoted thing out loud" to a large segment of the population.

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  #113  
Old Yesterday, 03:12 PM
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I resent that framing. Like most Dopers I'm a facts and logic evangelist
Are you honestly, earnestly unaware that right-wing pseudo-intellectuals have abused the "facts and logic" trope so severely that it's become a punchline meaning "sophistry and bullshit"? Go forth and resent Ben Shapiro; I didn't do it.

Last edited by HMS Irruncible; Yesterday at 03:12 PM.
  #114  
Old Yesterday, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
From what I've read of his ideas, he's a weird, sexist, pseudo-scientific ignoramus. Not surprising that he's apparently harmed himself with substance dependence and quackery.
you might get that impression if you do not actually watch one of his interviews and lectures and decide for yourself. or check 12 Rules For Life out of the library.
  #115  
Old Yesterday, 03:28 PM
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I know and respect smart people who are Jordan Peterson fans, but I've never actually heard him say anything I would consider intelligent. At best, he's a less new-agey version of Deepak Chopra or something, just saying feelgood platitudes for his particular audience of young "rational" white dudes. At worst he is a holocaust denier who opines that the Nazis didn't really do anything that bad. I don't understand what people I respect see in him, but I guess we hear what we want to hear and see what we want to see.
(bolding added.) provide a source for this statement.

Last edited by iguanas.com; Yesterday at 03:33 PM.
  #116  
Old Yesterday, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible View Post
Are you honestly, earnestly unaware that right-wing pseudo-intellectuals have abused the "facts and logic" trope so severely that it's become a punchline meaning "sophistry and bullshit"? Go forth and resent Ben Shapiro; I didn't do it.
Actually, yes. I don't live in the US, and while I am familiar with Jordan Peterson, Ben Shapiro and... <swallows vomit from mouth>...Stephen Crowder, et al, I hadn't heard the expression "facts and logic" used this way before.

On googling, I see several results of the format "Ben Shapiro humiliates liberal with facts and logic!".

This is a terrible development. It's one thing for people unfamiliar with formal logic, skeptical thinking and what a "gish gallop" is, to not appreciate the flaws in Shapiro's arguments. But to have such a warped idea that you think what he does constitutes "facts and logic"...geez.
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