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  #51  
Old 02-11-2020, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by sta3535 View Post
...Maybe I'll look into Dr. Nerdlove, or change my behaviors toward women.
I vote for change.

You have to. Or you will go through life self-centered and lonely.
  #52  
Old 02-11-2020, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Esprise Me View Post
They're selling you a load of horse manure. Don't buy it.

I'll admit, there are some emotionally damaged women out there who will be susceptible to PUA techniques. And there are some young and naive girls who can be trapped and manipulated into gray-area quasi-consensual sexual situations (maybe not legally rape, but definitely not enthusiastic consent) if you do what these douchebags tell you to do. But you will absolutely not get a loving, healthy relationship this way.

I really don't see how they could be worse, honestly. They're telling you to pretend to be someone you're not in order to trick or intimidate a woman into doing something she doesn't want to do. And they're dehumanizing her in the process, making it easier for you to ignore her agency when it conflicts with your desires. What sort of dating advice are you imagining that's worse?

And stop using the term "friendzoned." This is a perfect example of the problem. You were romantically interested in a girl; she didn't feel the same way. So she did this hurtful thing to you--she friendzoned you. You got friendzoned! Ouch! You poor thing! That utter bitch! Oh, but then when another girl liked you and you didn't feel the same way, that's just life, right? Kind of inconvenient for you, really. Reread your [eta: second-to-] last paragraph, and if you really don't see the double standard, please leave all women alone until you do.
It's interesting how I realize certain things later on in my life, but not in the moment: I got friendzoned by a girl, but did the same thing to another girl.

However, I got friendzoned by her because she was waiting for me to make the first move, but I didn't know when she wanted me to, until it was too late. Now that I look back on it, I should've asked her out sooner.

Furthermore, I don't plan on buying the systems, (outside of getting scammed). I created this post to gain more of an insight of what other people thought of these systems. The answer is simple:

Be yourself, treat everyone with respect, work on my confidence, and use appropriate methods.

Last edited by sta3535; 02-11-2020 at 10:06 PM.
  #53  
Old 02-11-2020, 11:20 PM
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Forget hookups, these "PUA's" said that you can develop long term relationships as well.
Not really. You can make long term relationships with people you meet in bars and such, but not using scummy pick up tactics such as negging.
  #54  
Old 02-12-2020, 12:26 AM
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Not sure about these “systems”, but usually any direct male self-improvement is looked upon in derision, from both sexes in my midwestern experience. Kind of a shame

Last edited by Mcmechanic; 02-12-2020 at 12:29 AM.
  #55  
Old 02-12-2020, 01:53 AM
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Take a shower, wash your hair, brush your teeth, wear clean clothes. Come up with two or three things that you like to talk about. Then start looking around for women and see if they like talking about those things. If they don't want to talk about those things, see what they like to talk about. If they don't want to talk to you, move on to the next woman.

Free advice, and worth every penny.

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Originally Posted by Kovitlac View Post
No, OP, these are not 'skills you need to master' - these are guides written by sexist morons who think women are vending machines or video games. You put in the required tokens / the Konami code and POOF! out pops sex. That isn't how dating, relationships or casual sex work.

Editing to add: As a woman I will tell you straight up - pick up tactics do NOT work. You will only come off like a manipulative dumbass who thinks all women are alike, and will all respond the same way to the same thing.
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Not sure why you seem to think one automatically excludes the other. Guys who use PUA tactics tend to feel entitled to sex/dating/a relationship. Guys who feel entitled like that are the type to assault someone when they don't get what they want.
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I really don't see how they could be worse, honestly. They're telling you to pretend to be someone you're not in order to trick or intimidate a woman into doing something she doesn't want to do. And they're dehumanizing her in the process, making it easier for you to ignore her agency when it conflicts with your desires. What sort of dating advice are you imagining that's worse?
.
I agree, it really boils down to grooming, be nice, try to find a common ground to start with - everything else can grow off that.

And honestly? I like a guy that is intelligent, amusing and gentle. I don't want to feel like I am being pressured into anything, I don't want to feel threatened, I want to be *comfortable* with the guy. I want him to be someone I would want to hang out with and be relaxed - I want to feel like I can hang out and do nachos and watch a movie and not be worried he is going to try and grab me. I want to talk about something random we both seem to be into and have it be a natural conversation.

You don't need to be mr macho, or the class clown, or the jock or the awkward nerd. Forget stereotypes and try and be someone that is comfortable. If you are someone to hang out with, you can see if there is a spark of romance to develop.
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  #56  
Old 02-12-2020, 09:49 AM
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OP, I'm glad to hear you're receptive to our concerns about these "systems." If I recall correctly, you've written before about having trouble making friends and interacting with people. If you're looking for some non-sexist guidance in that area, which will probably help you get dates as much as it helps you make friends, I've heard a lot of praise for the book Conversationally Speaking by Alan Garner. I read a snippet and was impressed with how he broke down a particular conversational skill: listening and asking follow-up questions instead of moving on to the next question you rehearsed, and why that makes for a better conversation. It seemed like a really good analytical perspective on something that comes so naturally to many neurotypical folks that it's hard to explain, but for which some folks really need an explanation and a step-by-step guide.
  #57  
Old 02-12-2020, 10:20 AM
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I got friendzoned back in high school, along with not being interested in another girl, despite her liking me..
In other words, you wanted somebody in high school who didn't want you; and somebody wanted you who you didn't want?

This is entirely normal. Happens to just about everybody, of any gender. Happens to adults, too.

The world is full of people. You're potentially sexually interested in some of them, but not in all of them. Most of them are potentially sexually interested in some people, but not all of those are sexually interested in you. Again, this is utterly normal, and just how the world is.

What you're looking for is the intersection between people you're interested in, and people who are interested in you. This is a smaller group for some people than for others; but there's nobody, or very close to nobody, for whom it's a nonexistent group. And the point that I'm trying to make here is that the fact that some people aren't interested in you doesn't indicate that it's a nonexistent group. Again, it's utterly normal for some people to not be interested in you.

(Notice that I'm using the word 'people'. Yes, as has been said repeatedly in this thread, women are people. And because the sort of systems you're describing don't treat women as people, yes they are worse than having no particular technique at all.)

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Originally Posted by sta3535 View Post
I got friendzoned by her because she was waiting for me to make the first move, but I didn't know when she wanted me to, until it was too late. Now that I look back on it, I should've asked her out sooner.
Well, maybe. That's a thing that can happen -- but if so, it's extremely unlikely that it was because it was 'too late' in the sense that she wrote you off for not asking sooner. If you mean 'too late' because she partnered with somebody else in the meantime, that's possible. If you mean 'too late' because she grew into a different person who was no longer interested in you, that's also possible -- in which case it would have happened anyway; many high school relationships don't last. But the number of people who think 'I really really want to go out with X but only if he asks me by March, I'm not going to be interested at all if he doesn't ask till April!' has got to be miniscule, if it exists at all. (It's certainly possible to ask somebody too late for a particular event; but that's not the same thing.)
  #58  
Old 02-12-2020, 10:50 AM
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As someone who's terrified of rejection, I've always wondered how some people seem totally unfazed by it. Is it because they have so much self-confidence, or is is because they have so little self-esteem?
I haven't dated in a long time (now married for a decade), but when I did, after years and years of (mostly) rejection I started to welcome it, with the following attitude (this was in my mid 20s) -- something like "thank you! Now I no longer have to imagine whether we are compatible together, and can now move on to attempting to make a connection with someone else". That attitude, at least for me, made rejection easy (and even good, in a way, because I found uncertainty to be so frustrating). One of the keys, at least for me, was to ask someone out EARLY -- don't wait to become friends and then develop strong feelings, but rather ask them out at the first possible sign that I might find them attractive or interesting (and assuming that they're available). And I was usually rejected, but that was fine, because I hadn't invested any significant emotion in the possibility of getting together with them. And this attitude made it easy to never have hard feelings for being rejected.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 02-12-2020 at 10:51 AM.
  #59  
Old 02-12-2020, 12:05 PM
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^This is really good advice.

Complaining about getting "friendzoned" seems to be more of a NiceGuy thing than a PUA thing, but they're just different branches on the poisonous misogyny tree. While the PUA technique centers around various methods of intimidation (from "negging" to using touch and physical positioning to keep her from leaving) with the goal of "scoring" with a large number of women, the NiceGuy schtick is about cozying up to one particular woman, hoping your fake friendship will inspire her to fall in love with you, and becoming angry (and often, in a breathtaking display of self-unawareness, accusing her of using you) when it doesn't. Both tend to involve pursuing the most physically attractive women without regard to compatibility, which is, again, dehumanizing to her, but also rather self-defeating for him. Most people, whether male, female, or something else, are attracted to conventionally attractive members of the gender(s) they're into. And most of us have to get used to the fact that we ourselves are not 10s, and the 10s of this world are therefore unlikely to sleep with us because they too would prefer other 10s, but they can actually get them. Yes, people do sometimes end up with more or less attractive people than themselves. When that happens, though, it's not because the less-attractive person discovered some secret trick that you can learn. It's either because they have something else to offer that the more attractive person wants--wealth, power, status, etc., which you probably don't have and which wouldn't really make for a great relationship anyway--or the couple share a genuine emotional connection based on shared interests and values, mutual respect and affection, and yes, some degree of mutual physical attraction. You can't expect to find that if you're only looking for a hottie.

Finding a good romantic partner requires being a good romantic partner. It also requires a little luck in finding someone compatible, which means for most people it requires patience. You will increase your odds of finding someone sooner if you interact with more people and especially if you ask more people out, but you'll keep struggling if you haven't done the work on yourself. These "strategies" encourage men to skip this step and use a shotgun approach (violent metaphor intended.) If you get good at these techniques, you might take someone down, but it's not going to make you happy. If you've enjoyed genuine friendships with men and women and are just frustrated because it seems like all your other college-age friends are getting laid and you haven't found someone yet, be patient. But if you're struggling with social interactions across the board, work on that, and then use your awesome new social skills to connect with women too.
  #60  
Old 02-12-2020, 12:44 PM
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Forget hookups, these "PUA's" said that you can develop long term relationships as well.

I understand that these systems are questionable, but they could be worse, am I right?

To be clear: I'm not looking to hook up with anyone at all, but I got friendzoned back in high school, along with not being interested in another girl, despite her liking me.

Maybe I'll look into Dr. Nerdlove, or change my behaviors toward women. It's easier said than done when it comes to meeting/dating women.
Give his site a try. It can't hurt and you might feel like it helps. I'd tell you that if I were looking, I'd be a LOT more likely to respond positively to someone using advice from DNL than I would from someone acting like a PUA asshole.
  #61  
Old 02-12-2020, 12:50 PM
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In order for a man to feel unfairly friendzoned he must have first unfairly girlfriendzoned a woman who didn't seek or ask for that status. How that becomes HER fault is left as an exercise for the reader.
  #62  
Old 02-12-2020, 12:52 PM
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I'm going to nitpick that just a little, Esprise Me, by pointing out that nobody's physically a 10 for everybody; and many people who aren't conventionally attractive are a 10 for somebody.

While many people are attracted to the conventionally attractive -- that's kind of true by definition -- there are significant numbers of people who prefer at least some characteristics not currently defined as "attractive".
  #63  
Old 02-12-2020, 01:18 PM
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As someone who's terrified of rejection, I've always wondered how some people seem totally unfazed by it. Is it because they have so much self-confidence, or is is because they have so little self-esteem?
I haven't ever done the "Go up to 200 women and say 'Nice shoes- wanna fuck?'" approach, but I can say that if you ask enough women out, it's likely that two things will happen:
  • You'll have enough success to keep you trying. Plenty of women will take a chance on you for dinner/coffee, if only to get free dinner/coffee. A much smaller, but still non-zero number will probably take you up on the sex offer, especially nearer closing time.
  • You'll realize that there's just no downside to doing it- if you ask some woman for her phone number/out for coffee/romp in the hay and she says no, there's no actual consequences to asking and being refused.
  #64  
Old 02-12-2020, 01:22 PM
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While many people are attracted to the conventionally attractive -- that's kind of true by definition -- there are significant numbers of people who prefer at least some characteristics not currently defined as "attractive".
That's very true. I'm a... husky guy. Tall, broad shouldered, barrel chested, and pretty overweight. So sort of like a human version of a bear. I've actually been told that if I was gay and grew a beard, I'd be the ultimate bear, FWIW.

Normally, that's not really considered a conventionally attractive look for men, but I've been really surprised at how many women actually DO like the aesthetic, but don't actually say it out loud to other women.
  #65  
Old 02-12-2020, 02:02 PM
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Not sure about these “systems”, but usually any direct male self-improvement is looked upon in derision, from both sexes in my midwestern experience. Kind of a shame
I think these systems are less about "self-improvement" as they are about creating a facade of "having value". And I think they are a putting the cart before the horse a bit in advising men to act like a jerk to "show value". "High value" men (i.e. good looking, affluent, athletic, talented, powerful, etc) often get away with acting like a jerk because people are drawn to them anyway. They don't draw people in by acting like a jerk.

Also, much of the advise in these books sounds like a good way to get punched.

What strikes me about what I've heard about these "programs" is how angry and bitter the language is. When I was young single man in my teens and twenties, sure, my friends and I used to place a high priority on "hooking up" when we went out on weekends. But primarily we were just going out to have a good time, get our drink on, maybe meet some girls. Sure, occasionally someone got frustrated if they were the only guy who ended up "odd man out" or was rejected or whatever. But I don't ever remember this constant undercurrent of anger that is expressed in these books.




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Originally Posted by Alessan View
As someone who's terrified of rejection, I've always wondered how some people seem totally unfazed by it. Is it because they have so much self-confidence, or is is because they have so little self-esteem?
Because what's the worse thing that can happen? Some girl who wasn't talking to you before continues not talking to you?

The reality there is no "system" beyond getting comfortable striking up conversations with people. After awhile you figure out something that works for you. Usually somewhere between "hi" and "WHO WANT TO SEX MOTUMBO!"
  #66  
Old 02-12-2020, 05:04 PM
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I'm going to nitpick that just a little, Esprise Me, by pointing out that nobody's physically a 10 for everybody; and many people who aren't conventionally attractive are a 10 for somebody.

While many people are attracted to the conventionally attractive -- that's kind of true by definition -- there are significant numbers of people who prefer at least some characteristics not currently defined as "attractive".
It's an oversimplification, sure. But in my experience, the men following these ideas and looking to date 10s aren't looking for women with cute, quirky, pre-rhinoplasty Jennifer Grey noses or classical Rubenesque figures. They may not have even identified precisely what they personally find attractive. They're looking for someone their bros will think is attractive, because that's a status marker. (Insecure douchebags who are into plus-sized women will sometimes cheat on their skinny wives with the women they really lust after, thus giving themselves a convenient excuse NOT to let anyone they know see them with their socially-deemed-ugly-despite-being-beautiful-to-them paramour. They don't brag to other insecure douchebags about how they scored with her.) And sure, it's possible for a conventionally attractive woman to not only fall for an average guy's sparkling personality but to find him physically attractive too. In fact, it's pretty important to the success of the relationship, which is why I included it in the elements of a genuine emotional connection alongside respect and all that other good stuff. It's a common enough scenario that I wouldn't discourage an average-looking guy from hitting on a better- looking girl if he has some reason to believe they'd be good together beyond his physical attraction to her, just because she may be "out of his league." But if your strategy revolves around always walking up to the prettiest girl in the room and trying to convince her to date or sleep with you, then a) you're treating her like a piece of meat, and b) you're going to get shot down a lot. Maybe even 100% of the time. And probably deservedly so.
  #67  
Old 02-12-2020, 10:31 PM
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I think these systems are less about "self-improvement" as they are about creating a facade of "having value". And I think they are a putting the cart before the horse a bit in advising men to act like a jerk to "show value". "High value" men (i.e. good looking, affluent, athletic, talented, powerful, etc) often get away with acting like a jerk because people are drawn to them anyway. They don't draw people in by acting like a jerk.

Also, much of the advise in these books sounds like a good way to get punched.

What strikes me about what I've heard about these "programs" is how angry and bitter the language is. When I was young single man in my teens and twenties, sure, my friends and I used to place a high priority on "hooking up" when we went out on weekends. But primarily we were just going out to have a good time, get our drink on, maybe meet some girls. Sure, occasionally someone got frustrated if they were the only guy who ended up "odd man out" or was rejected or whatever. But I don't ever remember this constant undercurrent of anger that is expressed in these books
What if there was a book that didn’t have an undercurrent of anger? Like some of the sites/programs listed. Would it still seem icky or fake or like cheating the natural order?
  #68  
Old 02-13-2020, 07:59 AM
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What if there was a book that didn’t have an undercurrent of anger? Like some of the sites/programs listed. Would it still seem icky or fake or like cheating the natural order?
I think it all depends on whether the program is designed to help you be the best "you" you can be, or if it is teaching you to run a scam to make yourself appear you are something you aren't.

In all fairness, Mystery's show on VH1 didn't seem to have as much of the misogynists tones people are describing from the books. A lot of it seemed like it was designed to help people break out of their shell. Like what the hell does a person actually say to initiate a conversation with a total stranger without sounding like a cheese-ball? Or even stuff like when I meet a girl at a bar, when should I take her to the bathroom to hook up and do we go to the women's room or the ladies room (less of an issue now that unisex bathrooms are more popular).

What sounds "icky" or "fake" is when they start getting into stuff like "breaking down resistance" or pretending to be something they aren't to impress people.
  #69  
Old 02-13-2020, 09:22 AM
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One advantage of being friend-zoned is that you now have a female friend, and women have other female friends, who are not necessarily going to friend-zone you.

Being friends with a woman without romantic intentions means you can be friends with a woman. And therefore, all you need to do is become friends with a woman and get the romance included. So you are halfway there already.

"Friend with benefits" is kind of the idea you want. If the friendship is close enough, and the benefits are good enough, heck, that's a romantic relationship.

Regards,
Shodan
  #70  
Old 02-13-2020, 09:58 AM
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One advantage of being friend-zoned is that you now have a female friend, and women have other female friends, who are not necessarily going to friend-zone you.

Being friends with a woman without romantic intentions means you can be friends with a woman. And therefore, all you need to do is become friends with a woman and get the romance included. So you are halfway there already.

"Friend with benefits" is kind of the idea you want. If the friendship is close enough, and the benefits are good enough, heck, that's a romantic relationship.

Regards,
Shodan
Exactly! You already have experience at the non-sex related parts, so if you can get the romantic part going, you're in business!

Last edited by bump; 02-13-2020 at 09:59 AM.
  #71  
Old 02-13-2020, 10:38 AM
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Not in the dating scene, but it would not be surprising if a good amount of women are familiar with this technique.

And when you're familiar with a technique, it's a huge turnoff.

I became aware of certain "tricks" for servers to get bigger tips, like complementing you on your clothes, jewelry, etc. Once I was onto this, every time I encountered it I thought to myself "ugh...". I'm noticing it less now because I think a lot of servers are aware that people are aware of these tricks.

Last edited by Ashtura; 02-13-2020 at 10:38 AM.
  #72  
Old 02-13-2020, 10:53 AM
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It's an oversimplification, sure. But in my experience, the men following these ideas and looking to date 10s aren't looking for women with cute, quirky, pre-rhinoplasty Jennifer Grey noses or classical Rubenesque figures. They may not have even identified precisely what they personally find attractive. They're looking for someone their bros will think is attractive, because that's a status marker.
Very likely true. I was actually thinking of it from the other direction, that of the man trying to get dates: some of whom seem horribly worried that whatever they look like can't possibly attract anybody.

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Exactly! You already have experience at the non-sex related parts, so if you can get the romantic part going, you're in business!
You're in business anyway, if you've actually got a friend. Having friends is good in itself.

Looking at friendship as something only worth having if it might get you sex (which probably isn't what bump meant, but is how that post reads to me) is a major problem. It means you're not really being a friend; and are therefore not worthy of having one.

Some people (including some women) are perfectly willing to have sex with at least some people who they don't particularly want to be friends with. Many people (including many women), while they don't want to have sex with all of their friends, don't want to have sex with anybody they can't be friends with. Being able to be friends with women will therefore increase your possible pool of women who might be interested in having sex with you (which probably is what bump meant); but trying to be friends with specific women only because you want to have sex with them isn't, actually, being friends. It's being a Nice Guy (which, in case you didn't know, is not the same as actually being a nice guy.)
  #73  
Old 02-13-2020, 11:45 AM
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You're in business anyway, if you've actually got a friend. Having friends is good in itself.

Looking at friendship as something only worth having if it might get you sex (which probably isn't what bump meant, but is how that post reads to me) is a major problem. It means you're not really being a friend; and are therefore not worthy of having one.

Some people (including some women) are perfectly willing to have sex with at least some people who they don't particularly want to be friends with. Many people (including many women), while they don't want to have sex with all of their friends, don't want to have sex with anybody they can't be friends with. Being able to be friends with women will therefore increase your possible pool of women who might be interested in having sex with you (which probably is what bump meant); but trying to be friends with specific women only because you want to have sex with them isn't, actually, being friends. It's being a Nice Guy (which, in case you didn't know, is not the same as actually being a nice guy.)
I don't know if it's being a jerk, or being a PUA, or being a Nice Guy, but keeping your goal in mind is important, IMO.

Maybe it sounds jerkish to say or think "I've got enough friends, I want a romantic partner" but it is a perfectly valid approach to seeking a romantic relationship anyway. Friendship is great, friendship is necessary to a valid long-term romance, but so is sex. If you are looking for both, you won't find both if you settle for only one.

"That's not what I'm looking for in a relationship" is just as valid an answer for a man to give to a woman who wants one kind of relationship but not another, as it is for a woman. A woman is perfectly within her rights to friend-zone a man, any man, and expect that he will respond civilly - without getting angry, without calling her names, without putting her down or trying to tell her she is wrong to feel that way.

Same thing for a man.

Woman: "You are only trying to be my friend to get into my pants."

Man: "Actually, I was hoping for both."

Woman: "If you can't be my friend, without any expectation of sex, then you can't be my friend."

Man: "Okay. See you around."

IYSWIM.

Regards,
Shodan
  #74  
Old 02-13-2020, 01:17 PM
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Woman: "You are only trying to be my friend to get into my pants."

Man: "Actually, I was hoping for both."

Woman: "If you can't be my friend, without any expectation of sex, then you can't be my friend."
Fine. Just sex then.
  #75  
Old 02-13-2020, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
Looking at friendship as something only worth having if it might get you sex (which probably isn't what bump meant, but is how that post reads to me) is a major problem. It means you're not really being a friend; and are therefore not worthy of having one.
That's not at all what I meant; what I was trying to say that if you already are friends with women, then once you meet one that you're interested in, you should be confident that you can handle the friendship aspects of the relationship, and the only thing to worry about is the romantic part of a longer-term relationship.
  #76  
Old 02-13-2020, 06:36 PM
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If you are looking for both, you won't find both if you settle for only one.

"That's not what I'm looking for in a relationship" is just as valid an answer for a man to give to a woman who wants one kind of relationship but not another, as it is for a woman.
To the first point: you might, because sometimes people actually do fall in love and/or in lust with their friends. It's a bad idea to assume that this will happen; but sometimes it does. Lots of people have started sexual relationships with somebody in their friends circle; sometimes with people they've been non-sexual friends with for some time.

To the second point: yes, certainly. And there are situations in which 'I don't want to hang around with you if there's no chance of sex' is entirely reasonable. If people go on a date with the explicit or strongly implicit idea of the date being intended to find out whether there's interest in a sexual relationship, and the conclusion on the part of one person is that there isn't, the other person's under no obligation to hang out with them anyway. If one person falls in love with a friend, finds it unrequited, and finds it too difficult to keep seeing them in non-sexual contexts, they're under no obligation to keep doing so. And so on.

Plus which, there's a limit to the number of people one can in practice actually be friends with; and that limit's going to be lower for some than for others.

But the attitude that there's no sense, in general, in a man being friends with a woman if there isn't going to be any sex involved: that's a problem. And men with that attitude are, I strongly suspect, going to wind up having both fewer friends and less sex than men who don't have that attitude.

And attempting to appear to make friends with a woman, in a general context, under the pretense that one is just trying to be friends, if in fact one is only interested in a sexual relationship, is dishonest. (And it's not the same thing as trying to make friends in general, with a general hope that maybe one of them will turn into a lover.)


-- bump, that makes sense. Sorry that I misread it (twice, actually, as you probably saw further along in the post that you quoted; but the second time in a more pleasant misinterpretation.)
  #77  
Old 02-13-2020, 07:01 PM
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OP, I'm glad to hear you're receptive to our concerns about these "systems." If I recall correctly, you've written before about having trouble making friends and interacting with people. If you're looking for some non-sexist guidance in that area, which will probably help you get dates as much as it helps you make friends, I've heard a lot of praise for the book Conversationally Speaking by Alan Garner. I read a snippet and was impressed with how he broke down a particular conversational skill: listening and asking follow-up questions instead of moving on to the next question you rehearsed, and why that makes for a better conversation. It seemed like a really good analytical perspective on something that comes so naturally to many neurotypical folks that it's hard to explain, but for which some folks really need an explanation and a step-by-step guide.
I'm not familiar with the book, but something similar worked for me. I managed to get to ~ age 25, without learning how to talk with people. I was taught (small class, student services) about listening and free information and questions, and learned to carry on a at least a half-assed conversation. It wasn't something I was able to learn by observation, because nobody would talk with me

Actually even after I learned how to maintain a conversation, observation of good conversationalists split them into two groups: guys I didn't want to waste time on, and women who's attractive social skills left me unable to make objective observations
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Old 02-14-2020, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
But the attitude that there's no sense, in general, in a man being friends with a woman if there isn't going to be any sex involved: that's a problem.
No it isn't. That's not a problem; it's keeping your goals in mind.

Regards,
Shodan
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Old 02-14-2020, 03:41 PM
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No it isn't. That's not a problem; it's keeping your goals in mind.

Regards,
Shodan
There's a certain amount of assumption in this thread that you have to be playing the game with the intention of gaining a long-term romantic partner. While that's a sort of ultimate life goal for many (most?) people, there are a lot of times when people just want to get laid (I didn't say "men", because sometimes women do too).

Anyway, the big problem often comes in when men don't have any actual skill at closing the getting laid deal, and resort to dehumanizing, dishonest and all-around shitty friendship tactics to attempt to get laid. Thinking that there's no worth to being friends with women who you won't sleep with/won't sleep with you is just an extension of that sort of tactic, IMO.

I suspect the real trick to it isn't that there are techniques that are real-life cheat-codes that will convince women to sleep with you, but rather that proper target identification and intelligence is key. By that I mean that all the clever word play, cologne, compliments, or whatever, isn't going to make a whit of difference unless the woman on the receiving end isn't already receptive to the idea that she might go home/bring home a man for sexy-time. And being able to figure out who is/isn't receptive gets you 70% of the way to getting laid. The other 30% is probably broken up into stuff like your height, your physique, your voice, how you're dressed, etc... How you act is only part of that 30%.

That's why the systems are bunk, IMO. They appeal to the short term "I want to get laid" mentality, but don't actually teach you the most important part of that. And insofar as they do work, they're just teaching men how to convince women with emotional damage/low self esteem to sleep with them, which to me, is inherently predatory.
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Old 02-14-2020, 04:05 PM
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No it isn't. That's not a problem; it's keeping your goals in mind.
Do you think there's no sense in being friends with anybody at all, of any gender, if you don't expect to have sex with them?

If you do think there's some sense in having friends one doesn't have sex with, why do you want to allow this only with people of one's own gender?
  #81  
Old 02-15-2020, 11:54 AM
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Do you think there's no sense in being friends with anybody at all, of any gender, if you don't expect to have sex with them?
No.
Quote:
If you do think there's some sense in having friends one doesn't have sex with, why do you want to allow this only with people of one's own gender?
I don't.

If I am looking for a romantic partner, and the other person is not, then our goals are incompatible and I would recommend that the person
  1. Not listen to incels, who will tell you that you should become resentful.
  2. Not listen to PUAs when they tell you there is a magic set of phrases that will cause women to become your romantic partners
  3. Not listen to Nice Guys who hang around being friends and never get the relationship they want because they are settling
  4. Not listen to people who tell you that you shouldn't try to have romantic relationships but seek friendship instead
  5. Do listen to PUAs when they say, "close the deal or move on". Find out if the other person is at all interested. If they are, try and get them to start, or explore the possibility of, a romantic relationship. If they say No, move on to the next. If that offends the first person, too bad, but it's none of your business - we aren't dating.
Regards,
Shodan
  #82  
Old 02-15-2020, 06:35 PM
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Stop looking for cheat codes. Relationships are not a video game.

Both people in a relationship have their own agency. Stop asking "How do I make women like me?" and ask yourself "How do I turn myself into a person that women like?"
So, I'm going to agree with this, as well as the next post that emphasized the part about "turning myself into a person *I* like.

I would also point out that there ARE PUA/"seduction coach" type people out now that really go this route rather than the old Mystery Method/The Game PUA stuff. There are a lot of good Youtube channels that focus on self-improvement with being more attractive as a by-product and focus on being a good, interesting person (rather than a needy, toxic "nice guy" for example) with things going, instead of some sort of shallow con-artist. Even a lot of the top seduction boot camp guys are now way more into the "build yourself into a high quality, genuine interesting person" rather than just how to approach and pickup using lines/schemes and mind games.

I think some of the mind game stuff IS on point, because you have to keep in mind where most consumers of this material are coming from. It's usually very desperate lonely guys who feel they have nothing to offer and tend to put themselves in situations where they turnoff potential friends and romantic partners with extreme neediness, people pleasing, etc.

I've always been considered much more intelligent than average while also (slightly, I think) more physically attractive than average, and I never really developed a lot of social/dating skills. When I was 18-22 I really didn't have to try, at least for getting into serious relationships that I was looking to get into (which in retrospect I regret). I wasn't racking up any numbers, but I wasn't one of those guys whining about not being able to get a GF. But that changed at some point, probably some combination of aging out of good looks (now I'm "nice for my age," to quote a 20something acquaintance), being in a terribly unhealthy marriage, and being self-employed from a home office for over a decade. I've found myself pretty much edging into "Forever Alone" status, though I'm far from the "kissless, hugless virgin" territory.

A lot of the dating guru stuff (not these seduction programs I see mentioned) has been helpful for me, as I've made a lot of improvements and I'm undeniably more generally attractive and socially adept than I've ever been. I'm still mostly alone but I have genuine friendships with women and women enjoy talking to me and being around me. I think I still come off as sort of goodlooking but asexual, though, because of whatever my "vibe" is. I think I lot of that is just sort of learning to crawl before walking and as I said I have zero social skills and I'm 40something trying to pick up basics like conversational things most people probably discover when they are teens.

So, I find a lot of the PUA stuff to be terrible, but it can be helpful for certain people and aspects.
  #83  
Old 02-15-2020, 10:57 PM
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[*]Do listen to PUAs when they say, "close the deal or move on". Find out if the other person is at all interested. If they are, try and get them to start, or explore the possibility of, a romantic relationship. If they say No, move on to the next. If that offends the first person, too bad, but it's none of your business - we aren't dating.
I agree that if you aren't interested in friendship, you shouldn't force it or fake it. Even if you like the person for more than just their looks, it's possible the sting of rejection could take the fun out of their companionship, and in that case it's probably best not to torture yourself. Plus, if you hit on a woman you're not already friends with and she turns you down with "let's just be friends," there's a pretty good chance she's just trying to spare your dignity and isn't interested in friendship either.
  #84  
Old 02-16-2020, 06:12 AM
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I'm sorry, but this thread is making me giggle. ( I'm so ashamed )
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Originally Posted by Bear_Nenno View Post
Women are not Pokemon.
Also, they get Really Really Pissed if you start throwing little hollow plastic balls at them...!
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Originally Posted by susan View Post
If I became aware that someone were trying this on me, my revenge would know no limits.
Hollow Plastic Ball Fight...!
  #85  
Old 02-16-2020, 06:49 PM
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Hollow Plastic Ball Fight...!
Big brass balls is more like it.
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Old 02-16-2020, 07:28 PM
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Big brass balls is more like it.

Someone has a version of Pokemon which is Much more expensive than mine.


TL,DR - " Pika...? "
  #87  
Old 02-18-2020, 03:05 PM
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Furthermore, most girls would be turned off if a guy acted like Johnny Bravo.

Have you ever met a guy who acted like him?

Last edited by sta3535; 02-18-2020 at 03:05 PM.
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Old 02-18-2020, 06:05 PM
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Furthermore, most girls would be turned off if a guy acted like Johnny Bravo.

Have you ever met a guy who acted like him?
Just once, but he wasn't elected then.
  #89  
Old 02-20-2020, 12:43 PM
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OP, I'm glad to hear you're receptive to our concerns about these "systems." If I recall correctly, you've written before about having trouble making friends and interacting with people. If you're looking for some non-sexist guidance in that area, which will probably help you get dates as much as it helps you make friends, I've heard a lot of praise for the book Conversationally Speaking by Alan Garner. I read a snippet and was impressed with how he broke down a particular conversational skill: listening and asking follow-up questions instead of moving on to the next question you rehearsed, and why that makes for a better conversation. It seemed like a really good analytical perspective on something that comes so naturally to many neurotypical folks that it's hard to explain, but for which some folks really need an explanation and a step-by-step guide.
I don't mean to continue this thread, but I have an interesting theory of why some people might try out these E-Books:

In today's day and age, some people believe that the only way to become successful in the dating world is to gain an unfair, competitive edge when it comes to dating someone.

In reality, they should focus more on themselves, but instead, they believe that the only way to attract someone is through tips and tricks.

Furthermore, they often lose sight of what really matters in life: Being yourself, respecting others, and knowing what's right from wrong.
  #90  
Old 02-20-2020, 02:20 PM
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Getting laid also really matters.

Regards,
Shodan
  #91  
Old 02-23-2020, 03:59 PM
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I don't mean to continue this thread, but I have an interesting theory of why some people might try out these E-Books:

In today's day and age, some people believe that the only way to become successful in the dating world is to gain an unfair, competitive edge when it comes to dating someone.

In reality, they should focus more on themselves, but instead, they believe that the only way to attract someone is through tips and tricks.

Furthermore, they often lose sight of what really matters in life: Being yourself, respecting others, and knowing what's right from wrong.
That's an interesting theory. As Shodan says, people want to get laid, and I know it's frustrating not to be able to find someone and tempting to think there must be some secret trick to it. But there's an inherent self-hatred in embracing a strategy of trying to trick people into sleeping with you. As much as we're driven by sex, we also really need genuine emotional connections to other human beings. A romantic relationship in particular, while not necessarily essential for personal fulfillment, is a natural thing to want and cherish. I suspect that straight American men may be more in need of a romantic partner than women are, because women are socialized differently and thus are able to be more open and vulnerable with our friends. In any event, you're definitely cheating yourself out of any hope of a meaningful connection if you're busy pursuing sex dishonestly.
  #92  
Old 02-24-2020, 04:52 PM
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I don’t know much about these things, apart from reading “The Game” many years ago. It seemed self-serving and painted some of these guys as insecure jerks. They would interest women by using contrived conversations and some shady psychology. Quality women don’t really want to be subtlety insulted.

That said, most men are interested in meeting quality women. “Be yourself” is loaded advice. You can’t really be someone you are not. But you want to be your best self. And a facet of yourself that is appropriate. Yourself but a little cleaner, better dressed, more talkative, maybe more confident, a little fitter, a little wittier. You want to become the type of person someone you want would be attracted to.

Leil Lowndes, an older woman, is a well known speaker on flirting techniques. Her stuff is likely better than the average player. She thinks a book by Louis and Copeland is the best one on the subject if you think you need advice. It contains some hard truths but no manipulative bullshit. The hard truth is you need to make some changes, which is tough. The good news is the changes are practical and doable, if difficult, but reflect a better attitude and healthier thought process. Ultimately, the men must pursue and the women always, always have the ultimate say in any significant decision. Self-respect is important and respecting others more so.
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Last edited by Dr_Paprika; 02-24-2020 at 04:53 PM.
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