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  #51  
Old 02-13-2020, 12:58 PM
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I have always enjoyed the whole conservation of power that is built into this world. It's like you can't just pull power out of your ass and take over the world without some level of self sacrifice that will leave you somewhat vulnerable.

That being said, I've never understood why Sauron put so much power into the ring when doing so would ultimately make him vulnerable.
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Old 02-13-2020, 01:59 PM
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...I've never understood why Sauron put so much power into the ring when doing so would ultimately make him vulnerable.
I think he always intended to take over the other Rings, using the power in the One Ring.
It worked really well for him with the Men who turned into Nazgul - and he probably enjoyed watching the Dwarven Ringbearers getting obsessed.

Even when Sauron was defeated by the Last Alliance of Men and Elves and lost the Ring, he could still have made a comeback if he regained it.
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Old 02-13-2020, 02:02 PM
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That being said, I've never understood why Sauron put so much power into the ring when doing so would ultimately make him vulnerable.
Hubris, I suspect.

His plan was to use the One Ring to dominate the other rings, and thus be able to control and rule over all of the people of Middle-Earth. I suspect he felt he'd been so cunning in his ruse as being a friend of the elves that he couldn't foresee it *not* working.

The elves, of course, figured it out.
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Old 02-13-2020, 03:29 PM
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That's one of the few things that bothered me about the movies is Farimer's reduced heroism. He was schooled by Gandalf. The other major characters all had a moment of temptation. If I remember correctly Farimer explicitly says "I would not pick it up if I found it on the side of the road". You can argue that this statement kills the seductive power of the ring but I think it just shows how much of a bad ass he was.
I totally agree. This and the Mirror of Galadriel scene were the low points of the trilogy for me.
  #55  
Old 02-13-2020, 03:41 PM
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I think he always intended to take over the other Rings, using the power in the One Ring.
It worked really well for him with the Men who turned into Nazgul - and he probably enjoyed watching the Dwarven Ringbearers getting obsessed.

Even when Sauron was defeated by the Last Alliance of Men and Elves and lost the Ring, he could still have made a comeback if he regained it.
He was defeated when the ring was forcefully removed from his hand. I always assumed that if he didn't put his power into the ring then there was less chance of him being defeated in the first place.
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Old 02-13-2020, 04:19 PM
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That's exactly why the great and powerful people were more vulnerable to the Ring: They had Visions of Great and Wonderful Things to do with it. If Galadriel or Gandalf had claimed the Ring, they couldn't just leave it in a drawer, or only use it occasionally, not when there was so much good they could do with it. Samwise, though, the Greatest and Most Wonderful Thing he ever has a Vision of is a garden that produces plenty of taters, and maybe some onions and herbs. And he can get that using just his own two hands. Hobbits are humble, and easy to satisfy.
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Old 02-13-2020, 05:25 PM
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I have more than once thought Farimer, Eomer, and Samwise represent Tolkien's disdain for the "Upper Class" All lower in class then the main protagonists but smarter and more well equipped to deal with the challenges at hand.
Huh? Éomer was royalty. Faramir was top of the aristocracy (and near-equivalent to royalty in the absence of Aragorn).

You got one out of three. Sam's sterling character was sketched in praise of the officer's batman in the old British army system Tolkien served in.
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Old 02-13-2020, 05:27 PM
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Yeah, I know that he gets described like that. But, to me, the weird part has always been that he doesn’t act like that; he acts like he knows what’s going on, and plans ahead by giving our heroes useful equipment and some sensible advice on what to do in the future (which is ‘call on him for help’ — at which point he comes through for them as expected). I guess my question is, had Gandalf ever even met the guy?
He had. In the Book VI chapter "Many Partings" G says he's looking forward to hanging out with TB again.
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Old 02-13-2020, 05:32 PM
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He had. In the Book VI chapter "Many Partings" G says he's looking forward to hanging out with TB again.
Yup:
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He is a moss-gatherer, and I have been stone doomed to rolling. Now my rolling days are ending, and we shall have much to say to one another.
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Old 02-13-2020, 05:33 PM
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I don’t see anything about “again” there.
  #61  
Old 02-13-2020, 05:39 PM
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I don't think there's such a thing as "quietly mastering the Ring". The hypothetical finder would master the Ring by making use of it, to do very unsubtle things.
I thought the Ring always had a desire to find its way back to Sauron. Not overtly but things like slipping off Isildur's finger at an inopportune moment. Unfortunately for the Ring Smeagol found it and sat on it in a cave for a long time.

Smeagol aside wouldn't the Ring try to betray whoever has it to find its way back to Sauron?
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  #62  
Old 02-13-2020, 05:46 PM
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I don’t see anything about “again” there.
Inferred from the way G talks about him the way you'd talk about an old friend.
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Old 02-13-2020, 05:50 PM
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Faramir was top of the aristocracy (and near-equivalent to royalty in the absence of Aragorn)
As far as class consciousness goes, Faramir's father and older brother were consumed by lust for the Ring and its power, which brought about the destruction of Boromir because his solitary pursuit of Frodo separated him from the rest of the Fellowship right when the Uruk-Hai attacked.

Faramir is rather in the vein of folktales where the youngest son succeeds in a challenge after the older sons have failed. Except in folktales they always come in threes.
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Old 02-13-2020, 07:31 PM
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That being said, I've never understood why Sauron put so much power into the ring when doing so would ultimately make him vulnerable.
The power of Maiar was large, but not strongly tied to the World. That is why many of them would clothe themselves in flesh, in order to more easily affect the world. But it created a vulnerability, since their bodies could then be wounded or destroyed. Sauron took it a step further by creating a worldly focus for his power. With all of his power embodied in the ring, he maximized his power (and multiplied it by subverting the other rings), with minimal risk. It was never going to leave his hand, and even if it did, it would make its way back to him. Nothing short of its original forge at his seat of power could destroy it, so it's not like he was risking much, right?
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Old 02-13-2020, 08:22 PM
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The power of Maiar was large, but not strongly tied to the World. That is why many of them would clothe themselves in flesh, in order to more easily affect the world. But it created a vulnerability, since their bodies could then be wounded or destroyed. Sauron took it a step further by creating a worldly focus for his power. With all of his power embodied in the ring, he maximized his power (and multiplied it by subverting the other rings), with minimal risk. It was never going to leave his hand, and even if it did, it would make its way back to him. Nothing short of its original forge at his seat of power could destroy it, so it's not like he was risking much, right?
Right - it's not like anyone ever walks there.
  #66  
Old 02-13-2020, 09:32 PM
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Right - it's not like anyone ever walks there.
One doesn't.
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  #67  
Old Yesterday, 01:41 AM
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Inferred from the way G talks about him the way you'd talk about an old friend.
I agree that it's not clear they've ever met, much less "again". But it seems improbable that they hadn't met. Gandalf had been visiting the Shire since before Bilbo's time, and been seen at intervals since, until he passed over the sea, a span of at least 130 years. Bombadil's domain was on the border of the Shire and on the way to Bree.

They've met.

Last edited by squeegee; Yesterday at 01:42 AM.
  #68  
Old Today, 03:35 PM
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But if the ring contained much of Sauron's 'power' - doesn't that effectively make the victor the new Sauron?
Get a copy of "Letters" and read all of letter 246 (already cited). It contains key information, not just on this immediate topic. Tolkien goes on to say that if Frodo had ultimately kept the Ring, the Nine would've flattered and deceived him until Sauron arrived.
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Frodo would have been utterly overthrown: crushed to dust, or preserved in torment as a gibbering slave. Sauron would not have feared the Ring! It was his own and under his will. Even from afar he had an effect upon it, to make it work for its return to himself. In his actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it from him.
  #69  
Old Today, 03:56 PM
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Get a copy of "Letters" and read all of letter 246 (already cited). It contains key information, not just on this immediate topic. Tolkien goes on to say that if Frodo had ultimately kept the Ring, the Nine would've flattered and deceived him until Sauron arrived.
Yeah. The whole point of the thread is to identify who would be one of the (as Tolkien said): "very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it from" (Sauron).
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