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  #351  
Old 12-07-2016, 10:59 PM
Some Call Me... Tim is offline
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But if you're doing the electricity challenge, you get an additional 1.5 times the helium after completion. So that would be 44380 at 79.

Plus, it will be much easier at 79 than 100. Might be too tough at the limits of a run. I've had to abandon void maps after leaving it too late.

Are those numbers correct? I've done void maps at 80, and didn't get anywhere near 17752. What are the modifiers reducing it?
Ugh, yep, I screwed up and used the wrong column from here. That's the sum total to that point column, not the single level.

So, void maps are double the Improbability of the zone, and also I should have double-checked levdrakon's mention that Electricity doubled Helium, you're right that's a total of +150% rather than doubling.

So... showing more of my work this time so you all can see any remaining errors, per the wiki L79 Improbability is 437 He while L100 is 591. In run, doubling for void maps would mean that L79 Electricity is 437 x 2 x 2.5 = 2185 He while L100 would be 591 x 2 = 1182 He.

It's still true that heirloom drops in the 60-79 bracket average a lot worse than those in the 100-124 bracket, which may also be a factor in the decision.
  #352  
Old 12-07-2016, 11:10 PM
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Actually, I checked too and it's 2.5 times the helium. I went ahead and did them, but now I have another void.

It took 4 days to get to Z80. I'm thinking that's too slow, so I think I'm just going to go to Z90, unlock that challenge and do it some more. Once I get to Z100 and unlock dailies, it would be nice if I could actually do a daily in one day.
  #353  
Old 12-09-2016, 10:16 AM
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Dailies are really awesome, now more than half of my HE has come from them. Since you can decide the zone to end the daily on, you can always finish in a day

They're only the second best part of Z100, though: Frugal is a total game-changer. At Z90 it would multiply your base type production by more than a factor of six.

You're right that 4 days to 80 is still probably too slow to get to Z100. Something to look forward to, though.
  #354  
Old 12-09-2016, 02:21 PM
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It took 4 days to get to Z80. I'm thinking that's too slow, so I think I'm just going to go to Z90, unlock that challenge and do it some more. Once I get to Z100 and unlock dailies, it would be nice if I could actually do a daily in one day.
I put some He into Agility, which makes the clock run faster, so all that slogging gets done a lot quicker. The first 40-50 levels took maybe an hour.
  #355  
Old 12-09-2016, 03:55 PM
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I still can't clear Trimple of Doom in less than an hour, so not fast enough yet. I have 8 on Agility. I'll just run Electricity some more.
  #356  
Old 12-09-2016, 09:12 PM
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Agility maxed out is 2626 He - seems like a quality of life expenditure that I'm happy to pay.
  #357  
Old 12-09-2016, 10:15 PM
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I finally got Trimple of Doom down under an hour a few days ago, and also got the Prison down to 5:35 so that was a really nice run. Getting through that under four hours still seems quite impossible, however.
  #358  
Old 12-09-2016, 10:27 PM
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Yeah yeah, just let me do Electricity 10 more times.
  #359  
Old 12-13-2016, 07:43 AM
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Electricity 10 more times? I'm still working on my first time. I re-specced after spending forever on zone 65, but even with birth rate almost at the point of being instantaneous, I'm still slogging in the upper 60s.
  #360  
Old 12-13-2016, 10:40 AM
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I've not done an Electricity. Is it worth it?

I'm currently doing my third Daily. Looks like you get a lot more bonus with less or the same effort.
  #361  
Old 12-13-2016, 11:24 AM
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Once they become available, most dailies are much better than electricity. If you're in the 80-99 range of highest zone electricity they might be a good option, though personally I sorta skipped that range. (I did later do Mapocalypse, which includes electricity.)

Supposedly the first non-daily helium challenge that's 'worth it' after dailies become available at 100 is Toxicity, but I'm not quite there yet. I think this is related to the fact that dailies were added after the other challenges.
  #362  
Old 12-13-2016, 12:57 PM
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Electricity 10 more times? I'm still working on my first time. I re-specced after spending forever on zone 65, but even with birth rate almost at the point of being instantaneous, I'm still slogging in the upper 60s.
I do three or four Voids on Z79 then finish Electricity and get over 75K helium, which buys lots of perks. I'm not really going to do it 10 times. I did it a second time, then did Scientist III, then a third time. It only took a little over a day this last time and I'm still on that run, headed towards Z100.

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I've not done an Electricity. Is it worth it?

I'm currently doing my third Daily. Looks like you get a lot more bonus with less or the same effort.
Depends if the helium is worth it to you, but if you're doing dailies then prolly not. It's pissed me off that while doing Electricity I've gotten about five Destructive void maps but couldn't get the achieve for doing them without losing any trimps, because you ALWAYS lose trimps on Electricity.
  #363  
Old 12-14-2016, 03:10 PM
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OK, what's the trick to Electricity? I tried it once, and it took F-O-R-E-V-E-R just to get to The Prison. I tried to keep my breed speed as fast as possible, but without the damage boost from Anticipation, my Trimps wouldn't do much damage before getting killed--and without geneticists to boost health, they would get killed really quickly. What am I doing wrong? The wiki page says to try to avoid buying Coordinations, is that the trick?
  #364  
Old 12-14-2016, 04:07 PM
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OK, what's the trick to Electricity? I tried it once, and it took F-O-R-E-V-E-R just to get to The Prison. I tried to keep my breed speed as fast as possible, but without the damage boost from Anticipation, my Trimps wouldn't do much damage before getting killed--and without geneticists to boost health, they would get killed really quickly. What am I doing wrong? The wiki page says to try to avoid buying Coordinations, is that the trick?
I left auto upgrade on and bought all my Coordinations as they came. It doesn't seem to make more than a couple second's worth of breed difference. I just bought nurseries as needed. Not sure what to tell you. Do you have Resilience? Health doesn't seem like a big deal since the enemy trimps kill you anyway. It's mostly breed speed and attack damage I guess. It really wasn't much slower than a regular run to Z80. I mostly buy dmg prestiges and let the health upgrades fall behind a level or two.
  #365  
Old 12-15-2016, 06:53 PM
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Please help me to understand Gigastations. I'm to increase the cost by 75% in order to increase the capacity by 20%? And if I hold down control it will then buy more warpstations to double the amount I currently own at the new 75% higher cost - if I can afford it?

How is this a good deal?
  #366  
Old 12-15-2016, 08:45 PM
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When you buy a gigastation, it resets you to a single gigastation with the new stats (you don't lose trimps, though). That means better capacity and a higher base cost.

So while before you were at, say, 20 gigastations with the next one costing a bajallion gems and metal, now you're at 1 gigastation with the next one costing substantially less.
  #367  
Old 12-15-2016, 09:03 PM
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That might've been unclear.

In other words, the next time you've got a bunch of warpstations and can't afford the next one, ctrl-click the gigastation button and watch what happens. It's definitely worth it.
  #368  
Old 12-15-2016, 09:20 PM
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That might've been unclear.

In other words, the next time you've got a bunch of warpstations and can't afford the next one, ctrl-click the gigastation button and watch what happens. It's definitely worth it.
Aha! Now I get it. Thanks!
  #369  
Old 12-15-2016, 09:32 PM
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I left auto upgrade on and bought all my Coordinations as they came. It doesn't seem to make more than a couple second's worth of breed difference. I just bought nurseries as needed. Not sure what to tell you. Do you have Resilience? Health doesn't seem like a big deal since the enemy trimps kill you anyway. It's mostly breed speed and attack damage I guess. It really wasn't much slower than a regular run to Z80. I mostly buy dmg prestiges and let the health upgrades fall behind a level or two.
Yeah, I have Resilience. Maybe I'll try it again, but I wound up pushing to 100 partially in order to get daily challenges, and if they keep being as good as the one I'm on now, which is:
  • Enemies stack a debuff with each attack, reducing Trimp attack by 4% per stack. Stacks cap at 9 and reset on Trimp death.
  • Your Trimps lose 5% of their max health after each attack.
  • Challenge has no end point, and grants an additional 297% of all helium earned before finishing.

then I don't think Electricity will be worth it anymore. Those handicaps are more more mild than what happens in Electricity, and the helium is more.
  #370  
Old 12-16-2016, 08:30 PM
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The Daily I'm doing at the moment only gives 163% vs. Electricity giving 250%. Guess it depends on the daily.
  #371  
Old 12-17-2016, 01:30 PM
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Ugh. I'm having a hard time setting my perks up. I'm currently slogging through my Z90 void maps before I reset, and it's going to take forever to get through them without something drastic happening. I didn't have a problem last reset, so it's clearly something to do with my perks. The Trimps guide isn't all that easy to follow, and there are calculators online, but they seem to be outdated. Anyone have a good rule of thumb? I'd guess there are good ways to set up for starting a new reset, as well as for maximizing void maps (and other things). Help would be greatly appreciated.
  #372  
Old 12-17-2016, 02:06 PM
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I tried for Survivor a couple weeks ago on a Lvl 75 Destructive map after abandoning the map. I was successful but didn't get the achievement. I guess you have to beat it first try.

Today I got the achievement on a Lvl 80 Destructive. I spent yesterday afternoon running Mountain maps for weapons and coordination. After a while all the imps were killed with a single hit, so I got a LOT of loot. Jestimps help a lot too. For some reason I get 4 minutes of production from a Jestimp, and I was killing a couple of Jestimps per minute. Then I ran Forest maps while I slept. This morning I ran through the Destructive Void in D formation and got Survivor, and then as a surprise bonus I got an achievement for killing the Zone 80 Improbability in a single hit.
  #373  
Old 12-17-2016, 04:12 PM
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A cold snap has brought snow to the Trimp homeworld! All non-mutated world cells have some snow, which is purely visual. Presimpts have returned and can be found randomly in the world! Presimpts drop basic resources, or if you're lucky and have been good this year, a bone.

Not sure what to say about perks. I've been wondering about it too. Are the online calculators really out of date? I was thinking of trying one. The wikis are confusing. They say, "this should be 1/16 of that, and that should be 1/8th of this, and this should be 1/something of this other thing. I'd like to find something that just said, if you have x He, your perks should be thus.

Still don't have that achieve for a lvl 60 Destructive Void map. I keep getting Destructives but I'm never on a run where I could do it. Just got the Elite Feat yesterday but wasn't even trying.

Just got a bone from a Presimpt. Four more bones and I can buy Titimp, and then I'll have all my imports.
  #374  
Old 12-17-2016, 09:59 PM
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Ugh. I'm having a hard time setting my perks up. I'm currently slogging through my Z90 void maps before I reset, and it's going to take forever to get through them without something drastic happening..
Why did you wait to Z90 to do the void maps?

If you ran them at Z80, it would have bee a lot easier to beat. You'd get exactly the same heirloom, and only a little less helium. I find it's best to do them ASAP after the percentages level up.
  #375  
Old 12-18-2016, 05:50 AM
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Pumpkimps!
Presimpts
  #376  
Old 12-18-2016, 08:42 AM
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Why did you wait to Z90 to do the void maps?
Because I'm an idiot, and I was unaware of that. Z90 voids proved impossible - so I reset.
  #377  
Old 12-18-2016, 06:23 PM
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Snow!
  #378  
Old 12-21-2016, 12:38 PM
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Ok, so I'm on Z108 and doing okay. Things are slow now, but doable. I was able to do all my Voids on Z100. I have plenty of block and health, but my dmg keeps dropping further and further behind the enemy. I guess adding to the Power perk is the only way to improve that?

I'm still doing a daily from two days ago that gives 437% He bonus, so this should be my largest helium haul yet, by far.
  #379  
Old 12-23-2016, 07:22 PM
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Ok, so I'm on Z108 and doing okay. Things are slow now, but doable. I was able to do all my Voids on Z100. I have plenty of block and health, but my dmg keeps dropping further and further behind the enemy. I guess adding to the Power perk is the only way to improve that?

I'm still doing a daily from two days ago that gives 437% He bonus, so this should be my largest helium haul yet, by far.
Congrats on 100!
I assume you've done Frugal already if you're doing dailies- if not, do that asap. You'd be getting 18 times the gathering speed with it than without at zone 108. In general the more production you have the earlier you get prestiges and the faster you level.

The other main thing to keep you on curve damagewise will be to be able to buy more levels of coordination. The 25% bonus per level compounds rapidly. Carpentry and later the Coordinated perk will be keys here.

Oh. and it was about at your stage that I began taking the farming of maps for resources seriously. Once you have the appropriate bone imps your resource production will be much faster in maps than in zones. More resources -> more prestiges -> faster leveling.

It does get faster. A little while ago I finished Bionic Wonderland in 2:31, missing the top achievement by a minute...
  #380  
Old 12-26-2016, 04:39 PM
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Congrats on 100!
I assume you've done Frugal already if you're doing dailies- if not, do that asap. You'd be getting 18 times the gathering speed with it than without at zone 108. In general the more production you have the earlier you get prestiges and the faster you level.

The other main thing to keep you on curve damagewise will be to be able to buy more levels of coordination. The 25% bonus per level compounds rapidly. Carpentry and later the Coordinated perk will be keys here.

Oh. and it was about at your stage that I began taking the farming of maps for resources seriously. Once you have the appropriate bone imps your resource production will be much faster in maps than in zones. More resources -> more prestiges -> faster leveling.

It does get faster. A little while ago I finished Bionic Wonderland in 2:31, missing the top achievement by a minute...
Bionic Wonderland? Wow that's awesome. I haven't even gotten there yet.

I made it to 120. Didn't intend to, but I got busy with RL stuff and just let the game run. So, now I've got Scientist IV, Mapocalypse and Coordinate to do. Fun stuff. It sure does get faster.

And yeah, I've noticed that I get by far the most resources from running maps. Closing the game overnight doesn't earn that much compared to letting it run maps for a couple hours.
  #381  
Old 12-30-2016, 08:24 AM
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I finally limped into Z75, desperate to complete a Void map to get Auto Storage... but this may take a week!
  #382  
Old 12-30-2016, 02:08 PM
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I finally limped into Z75, desperate to complete a Void map to get Auto Storage... but this may take a week!
Auto Storage is great to have. It'll be worth it.

The void probably won't take too long, though. Make sure you get Gymystic in cell 45 or 55, and then run a forest or garden map on Repeat Forever for a few hours to buy gyms. Maybe fire some farmers and get some lumberjacks first. Try to get your Health + Block above a septillion before entering the void. If you can block the entire hit, then the void imps' special abilities won't affect you. Gyms are less valuable in most 60+ zones, but with Gymystic the maps (including voids) get really easy in zones 75 and 100 (and I assume 125, but I'm not there yet).

Last edited by Rhodes; 12-30-2016 at 02:09 PM.
  #383  
Old 12-30-2016, 02:24 PM
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I just bought the last Exotic Imp-ort. Now what should I spend bones on?
  #384  
Old 12-30-2016, 02:52 PM
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I just bought the last Exotic Imp-ort. Now what should I spend bones on?
Bone Portals, from what I've read. I have enough to buy one but I think I'll wait for awhile.
  #385  
Old 12-30-2016, 08:34 PM
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I've been saving mine up with the intent of buying heirlooms once I reach zone 201.

Portals don't quite seem worth it when I can get much more helium from a good daily challenge, but mostly I don't like them because I can always get more helium for the bones if I wait a while longer, while heirlooms eventually max out.
  #386  
Old 12-30-2016, 09:28 PM
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I've been saving mine up with the intent of buying heirlooms once I reach zone 201.

Portals don't quite seem worth it when I can get much more helium from a good daily challenge, but mostly I don't like them because I can always get more helium for the bones if I wait a while longer, while heirlooms eventually max out.
But if you buy bone portals now, you can spend the helium on perks that increase your speed of helium accumulation. Ok, it won't get you heirlooms, but that's my philosophy on buying bone portals fairly soon after I get enough bones for them. As I type this I'm on a Crushed run since it offers the highest amount of helium for where I'm at outside of the daily, as the daily doesn't count towards bone portals. I'll probably be buying two portals immediately after, depending on how well the presimpts drop bones.
  #387  
Old 12-30-2016, 09:34 PM
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The other main thing to keep you on curve damagewise will be to be able to buy more levels of coordination. The 25% bonus per level compounds rapidly. Carpentry and later the Coordinated perk will be keys here.
Coordinated seems really, really expensive, at least at the level of helium I have, compared to the minuscule benefit it has per level. I can get a lot more perks that actually help me all the time for the amount I would need to spend to get a 25% attack/health boost 2% of the time. Or am I misunderstanding what exactly it does? Yes, once I get enough helium that the other perks aren't as efficient it will be a quite nice way to use helium, but it might be awhile before that happens.
  #388  
Old 12-30-2016, 09:55 PM
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Or am I misunderstanding what exactly it does?
Probably, or you're underestimating how much reducing the scaling factor of coordination adds up over a run. Let me give a very concrete example. Right now in my current run I have 111 coordination upgrades. The size of my battle group, with 8 levels of Coordinated, is 8.11B. Without any levels of Coordinated, it would have to have been 192B. So in other words, my trimps are fighting as if they were a force more than twenty times as large. Putting that amount of helium (1.22M) in direct health or attack wouldn't have gotten me even a doubling of power, I don't think.

Fair warning though: the very first level of Coordinated was underwhelming. By the time I got to the end of that run I think I had only one extra coordination. But the way coordinations round the number of trimps up every step means there are boundary effects that make some levels of Coordination more or less powerful than others, and I think the first one is one of the least useful ones; the effect was very noticeable even with just two levels.
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Old 12-30-2016, 10:02 PM
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Correction: 1.22M is the cost of my next level of Coordinated. Total spent is 3.58M.
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Old 12-30-2016, 10:43 PM
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OK, what's the trick to Electricity? I tried it once, and it took F-O-R-E-V-E-R just to get to The Prison. I tried to keep my breed speed as fast as possible, but without the damage boost from Anticipation, my Trimps wouldn't do much damage before getting killed--and without geneticists to boost health, they would get killed really quickly. What am I doing wrong? The wiki page says to try to avoid buying Coordinations, is that the trick?
Yes, it does make some amount of sense to avoid buying Coordinations while on Electricity, as the amount that your breed timer increases is greater than 25% (a consequence of exponential breeding) while your damage output goes up only 25%. Thus, if your Trimps are dying at the same speed (5 hits), it doesn't help to get more Coordinations. However, eventually you can get enough Nurseries that you can keep the breed timer to below 2 seconds, which is about how long the Trimps last at max Agility. It is rather annoying right after the planet breaks when you're severely hurting for more breed speed to have to decide while you're not actively playing between reading useless Coordinations and not reading the very important Mega-Resource books.

I personally found it not particularly hard, although like all the helium challenges I didn't try them until I could comfortably get to the end point of the challenge while unencumbered. Eventually you'll get to level 100 and the daily will be far more lucrative though, although you'll want to do one long run with Electricity for the size of your Bone Portal until you get Crushed. My best Electricity portal was 150k, and now after finishing the challenge part of Crushed I'm over 400k (though much of that is the bonus from finishing Scientist V) and looking to see how long I can push this run.
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Old 12-30-2016, 10:46 PM
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Probably, or you're underestimating how much reducing the scaling factor of coordination adds up over a run. Let me give a very concrete example. Right now in my current run I have 111 coordination upgrades. The size of my battle group, with 8 levels of Coordinated, is 8.11B. Without any levels of Coordinated, it would have to have been 192B. So in other words, my trimps are fighting as if they were a force more than twenty times as large. Putting that amount of helium (1.22M) in direct health or attack wouldn't have gotten me even a doubling of power, I don't think.

Fair warning though: the very first level of Coordinated was underwhelming. By the time I got to the end of that run I think I had only one extra coordination. But the way coordinations round the number of trimps up every step means there are boundary effects that make some levels of Coordination more or less powerful than others, and I think the first one is one of the least useful ones; the effect was very noticeable even with just two levels.
I guess I don't see how .98 ^ 8 even comes close to 8.11/192, so even with boundary effects there's something about the calculation I don't understand.

Last edited by glowacks; 12-30-2016 at 10:49 PM.
  #392  
Old 12-30-2016, 10:56 PM
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Ok, I guess the 2% reduction must apply for every Coordination book? That is, the next level always takes (.98 ^ Coordinated level ) * 1.25 * the amount that it took to read the previous book, not just (.98 ^ Coordinated level ) * 1.25 * the amount it originally took before applying Coordinated. I assumed it was the latter.

Last edited by glowacks; 12-30-2016 at 10:57 PM.
  #393  
Old 12-30-2016, 11:01 PM
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The perk doesn't apply to the size of your fighting group directly, it applies to the increase from the upgrade. So with eight levels of the perk, each coordination upgrade increases the size of my fighting force by 25% * 0.98^8 = 21.269%. This means that after 111 coordinations, my fighting group is approximately (1.21269/1.25)^111 = 0.035 times smaller. The rounding at each step means the actual fighting group size multiplier is 0.042 instead, but I'd call that good enough.

On preview: yes, exactly.
  #394  
Old 12-30-2016, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Sofis View Post
I've been saving mine up with the intent of buying heirlooms once I reach zone 201.

Portals don't quite seem worth it when I can get much more helium from a good daily challenge, but mostly I don't like them because I can always get more helium for the bones if I wait a while longer, while heirlooms eventually max out.
I bought golden maps once, it's decent but not dramatic. I may do that again when I do a multi-RL-day deep dive. I'm letting the bones mostly stack up, but from what I understand the Toxicity and later the Lead challenges the way to go if you're planning to buy portals from the bone trader. They're both said to be competitive with the better challenges in terms of helium gained, plus the bone trader would give you the full amount with the multiplier, unlike a daily.

I'm about to start on a Toxicity run, to be followed by heading deeper (currently deepest for me is Z171.) Toxicity gives a x3 multiplier base, but the stacking buff can also give another +225% on top of that, for a total of 975% (like a +875% daily). The downside is you'd have to attack 1500 times in each zone to get your buff up to that multiplier. Lead is simpler, 3.5x for everything, plus all even zones have that doubled to 7x. Also competitive with the better dailies (assuming that's the approximate depth you're doing dailies to.)
  #395  
Old 12-31-2016, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sofis View Post
The perk doesn't apply to the size of your fighting group directly, it applies to the increase from the upgrade. So with eight levels of the perk, each coordination upgrade increases the size of my fighting force by 25% * 0.98^8 = 21.269%. This means that after 111 coordinations, my fighting group is approximately (1.21269/1.25)^111 = 0.035 times smaller. The rounding at each step means the actual fighting group size multiplier is 0.042 instead, but I'd call that good enough.

On preview: yes, exactly.
Well, I didn't have it quite right in my formula, but I did figure it out to be what you mentioned after buying it and trying to reconcile my calculations with what I was seeing. I was applying the .98 ^ X to the entire amount, not just to the 25% increase, which made it seem a whole lot better. It's not quite as good as I thought it was going to be, but it's still decent.

Last edited by glowacks; 12-31-2016 at 03:25 PM.
  #396  
Old 12-31-2016, 03:29 PM
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The reason I thought the decrease didn't just apply to the amount that it was increasing is that the perk says that it decreases the number of Trimps needed to read each level, not decreases the amount of the increase.
  #397  
Old 12-31-2016, 03:38 PM
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I'm baffled by this explanation. Decrease the amount of increase? Say what?
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Old 01-01-2017, 12:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Morris View Post
I'm baffled by this explanation. Decrease the amount of increase? Say what?
I'll give it a shot...

Normally, when you buy a level of coordination, the number of Trimps in your fighting group increases by 25% (rounding up) from however many Trimps were in your fighting group before the purchase. Similarly, the attack, block, and hp of your forces scales up with this +25%, as does the number of total Trimps required to purchase the next level of Coordination.

Now, what Coordinate does is multiply that +25% by .98 to the power of whatever level Coordinate is at, except for the attack, block, and HP which continue at the original +25% bonus amount.

So, with Coordinate 12, instead of +25% more Trimps each level of Coordination requires only 25% x (.9812) = +19.6% (rounded up) more than the previous level did. I use Coordination 12 as an example because that's where it crosses the +20% threshold and is therefore a sort of milestone.

Ignoring the rounding, this is effectively lowering the base of the exponential growth. Coordination 100 was 1.25100 Trimps, with Coordinate 12 it's only 1.196100. When you stop ignoring the rounding it gets trickier to calculate and is a bit more, but it's still a big difference.
  #399  
Old 01-03-2017, 01:12 PM
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Boy, things are getting expensive. I have Syphonology and Coordinated now, and they're pricey, while also trying to keep Carpentry at 50% of my helium.
  #400  
Old 01-03-2017, 01:24 PM
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Coordinated was where I broke with the 50% rule to sort of '50% after coordinated is bought' rule. I'm spending a bit more total on coordinated than I am on carpentry at the moment, and I'm not even up to the Truth guide's suggestion that I should buy coordinated until each level costs 2-3x a level of Carpentry.

Siphonology is an oddball, though it's a short-term problem as you can only buy three levels of it so over time it'll become a small and ignored expense.
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