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  #151  
Old 08-31-2019, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip View Post
"James Comey is a liar and a leaker, but he's got nothing on me!"
One can't help musing on ways to manipulate Trump into feeling he must be seen as the BEST liar and leaker.

Probably wouldn't be too difficult. He's clearly moving closer to full dementia day by day.

But is the game worth the candle? Trump's enablers seem determined to be willfully blind to his mental deterioration.
  #152  
Old 09-01-2019, 04:17 PM
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It seems to me, and I hate to say it, that House Dems have developed the strategy of holding impotent investigations that will stretch well into next year and effectively run out the clock. But they sure do look interested, don't they? Fuckers.


Wake me when 20 Republican Senators are in favor of Impeachment. Until then, it's all pointless noise.
  #153  
Old 09-01-2019, 05:47 PM
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So it's only worth doing if a win is guaranteed? That's silly. Imagine telling a cop only to arrest those whose convictions are guaranteed. Or even a sports team- don't play any games you might lose. Why should any politician run for office if a win isn't guaranteed? Damn, dude.

Last edited by bobot; 09-01-2019 at 05:50 PM.
  #154  
Old 09-01-2019, 05:49 PM
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Wake me when 20 Republican Senators are in favor of Impeachment. Until then, it's all pointless noise.
And those 20 Republicans won't change their views until forced to by overwhelming public sentiment in favor of impeachment.

The latest polls show nothing approaching that. From August 22 (this year!) :

Quote:
A majority of Americans oppose impeaching President Donald Trump, according to a new poll by Monmouth University released Thursday.

The data point -- with 59% of those surveyed responding that Trump should not be impeached and compelled to leave office -- comes as Trump’s approval rating remains at 40% in the same poll. ...
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ed/2090155001/
  #155  
Old 09-01-2019, 06:04 PM
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The good news is that we'll have, instead of pointless impeachment hearings, pointless House investigations that Trump and Co. refuse to participate in. And Democrats will go down in history as the people that were afraid to stand up to Trump. Big pat on the back for them.
  #156  
Old 09-01-2019, 06:16 PM
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... And Democrats will go down in history as the people that were afraid to stand up to Trump. .
So, we should stand up to trump by giving him a second term? That doesnt make any sense.
  #157  
Old 09-01-2019, 06:26 PM
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It's the same thing Democrats said after the Garland fuckery- although Dems really did have little recourse then. "We'll show them with the next election!" How did the election after that work out for Democrats? Living for the next election is a crappy shackle to outfit oneself with. What Democrats are keeping their fingers crossed for is: No impeachement hearings, and a Trump loss next time. I say it's a crappy way to go. The right thing is the right thing. Doing nothing and crossing fingers, I find, uninspiring and unadmirable.

Last edited by bobot; 09-01-2019 at 06:28 PM.
  #158  
Old 09-01-2019, 07:28 PM
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It's the same thing Democrats said after the Garland fuckery- although Dems really did have little recourse then. "We'll show them with the next election!" How did the election after that work out for Democrats? Living for the next election is a crappy shackle to outfit oneself with. What Democrats are keeping their fingers crossed for is: No impeachement hearings, and a Trump loss next time. I say it's a crappy way to go. The right thing is the right thing. Doing nothing and crossing fingers, I find, uninspiring and unadmirable.
Good thing the House Democrats are not "doing nothing," then.

Whether the Dems call the hearings they already have on the schedule 'impeachment' or not, Trump and his enablers are not going to show up. And courts have already, despite no fanfare or brouhaha about Impeachment Underway, supported the House in its suits against the non-compliant. There will be more of that.

And, of course, arguably Nadler already crossed the "impeachment inquiry" line in late July:

Quote:
House Democrats escalate impeachment fight with suit to obtain Mueller grand jury information
The House Judiciary Committee on Friday is moving to obtain the secret grand jury material from special counsel Robert Mueller's report in federal court, arguing they need the information in order to decide whether to impeach President Donald Trump.

The lawsuit, which was filed Friday, escalates the investigation into the President being conducted by the committee that could lead to impeachment proceedings. ...
https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/26/polit...ury/index.html

Just because some in the base believe it will be cathartic and satisfying to have a big extravaganza, with House members calling press conferences to announce WE'RE IMPEACHING---and that's a very questionable proposition---doesn't mean it's smart, or will be an effective way of getting rid of Trump.
  #159  
Old 09-01-2019, 07:52 PM
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It will be an effective way to stand up for what's right. That's it. It has little to do with gettimg rid of Trump, which it has almost no chance of doing. In the future, kids in school might astonishingly ask: "Golly, why didn't anyone do anything" And the teacher will respond: "There was an election the following year, see, and Democrats were going to hold hearings and have investigations. They could hear the clock ticking and knew that if they only just waited..."
  #160  
Old 09-01-2019, 11:06 PM
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It's the same thing Democrats said after the Garland fuckery- although Dems really did have little recourse then. "We'll show them with the next election!" How did the election after that work out for Democrats? Living for the next election is a crappy shackle to outfit oneself with. What Democrats are keeping their fingers crossed for is: No impeachement hearings, and a Trump loss next time. I say it's a crappy way to go. The right thing is the right thing. Doing nothing and crossing fingers, I find, uninspiring and unadmirable.
We creamed the GOP in the House, and did not quite as well as expected in the Senate.

What is the right thing? Indicting someone just so he will officially and finally be declared innocent, so he can wave that around to his base? Why the FUCK is that the right thing? Why the FUCK should we reward that asshole with a second term, in exchange for a meaningless gesture?
  #161  
Old 09-01-2019, 11:08 PM
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It will be an effective way to stand up for what's right. That's it. It has little to do with gettimg rid of Trump, which it has almost no chance of doing. In the future, kids in school might astonishingly ask: "Golly, why didn't anyone do anything" And the teacher will respond: "There was an election the following year, see, and Democrats were going to hold hearings and have investigations. They could hear the clock ticking and knew that if they only just waited..."
"Well, we did do something Johnny, we held a meaningless indictment in the House and gave Glorious leader trump a second term. That is why there are no more brown people in this school. In his second term he was able to put two more ultra conservative justices on the Supreme Court, which then rubber stamped his suspension of habeas corpus. He then blocked black people from voting unless they could prove they were a citizen. That is why now theCongress has over 66% republicans, and they are doing a Constitutional Convention. Roe vs Wade has been overturned. "

Yeah.

Last edited by DrDeth; 09-01-2019 at 11:12 PM.
  #162  
Old 09-02-2019, 10:03 AM
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All of which can be avoided if we lube up and bend over? Do we have to actually suck it, or is there some lesser level of abject submission that is precisely correct? Dare we throw caution to the winds with a "tsk! tsk!"? Mind, I am not actually suggesting anything really radical like wagging a finger, unless that is braced with a rueful admission that both sides do it.

So, we investigate, and they say we are wasting time? Like they weren't going to say it anyway? Maybe trim it back a little, only investigate the top ten most slimy, disgusting and wretched crimes? Well, OK, which ones? Whats the plan? Perhaps a polite discussion, sipping tea with pinkies akimbo and murmuring gentle admonitions so as not to hurt their feelings? Like, maybe grinding immigrant children into cat food is a bit much, we should just let them go away and die where we can't see them.

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  #163  
Old 09-02-2019, 01:32 PM
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All of which can be avoided if we lube up and bend over? Do we have to actually suck it, or is there some lesser level of abject submission that is precisely correct? Dare we throw caution to the winds with a "tsk! tsk!"? Mind, I am not actually suggesting anything really radical like wagging a finger, unless that is braced with a rueful admission that both sides do it...
The plan is to win the presidency, and win the Senate, then criminal charges to follow, once trump and crew have no immunity, no helpful senate majority and no chance at a pardon.

Why a useless, pointless gesture now, and give up the White House along with any chance of criminal convictions?

A indictment by the House will do nothing but help trump win re-election. I'd rather see him in a orange jumpsuit.
  #164  
Old 09-02-2019, 02:43 PM
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OK, why do you think such an astonishing thing? Will an impeachment proceeding be stymied for lack of evidence? Which lay thick upon the ground when the Republican House was bending over backwards to avoid any such thing. His financial dealings only look like they are shady, but if we check them out, they will prove to be full of crunchy goodness? He is an innocent lamb, surrounded by treasonous crooks, the pure virgin who fell into the center of a Mongolian clusterfuck? Investigation will prove him blameless, thus sympathy will soar?

You keep saying that investigating him will cause him to be re-elected. By what astonishing mechanism will this occur? With all due awe, what are you talking about, here?
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  #165  
Old 09-02-2019, 03:31 PM
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You keep saying that investigating him will cause him to be re-elected. By what astonishing mechanism will this occur? With all due awe, what are you talking about, here?
Geez, how many republican senators are there? Go ahead, check, I'll wait................................................................................................ .................................................................. Right it would take TWENTY of them to vote to convict trump. By what astonishing mechanism will this occur? Now, once the hearing is held in the House, the senate will vote "Not Guilty" and then Fox news and trump will loudly proclaim he has been proven to be Not Guilty. Every political expert knows this.

1st- the hearings and investigations have up until now gone largely unnoticed and didnt seem to hurt trump:

https://www.lawfareblog.com/what-if-...nobody-noticed

Responding to CNN’s Erin Burnett, he declared forcefully that his committee’s current program “is formal impeachment proceedings.” Later the same night, with Rachel Maddow on MSNBC, he said, “We’ve made it clear that the committee is holding an investigation.… [W]e are considering what to do about it, including the possible voting of articles of impeachment.”

The nation barely noticed. Between a string of mass shootings, the ongoing Democratic presidential primary and a shuffle of senior intelligence leaders, even political junkies seemed to take little notice of the news that the House of Representatives has begun officially and publicly moving forward with investigations to invoke its solemn, constitutionally ordained “sole power” to impeach the president for “Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.” In the age of Trump, it seems, not even the beginning of impeachment proceedings offers a national moral inflection point.....

On the political side, the main reason offered by Pelosi and political pundits alike for not pursuing impeachment efforts has been the belief that initiating such formal proceedings without a clear path to conviction and removal by the Senate would damage Democrats at the polls in 2020. ..Nevertheless, through the spring and even after the Mueller report’s release, polls showed no majority in favor of impeachment, suggesting to Pelosi and others that moving forward on formal investigations of the president with a mind to that constitutional remedy would bring a backlash from the public.


https://www.foxnews.com/politics/202...-to-help-trump

But he added “I think we should not kid ourselves. Under no circumstances will [Senate Majority Leader] Mitch McConnell ever allow impeachment to go forward. Democrats have to realize that if we ever want to beat Donald Trump, we have to do it at the ballot box.”

Hickenlooper held out hope that “when we do the inquiry and have the subpoenas and get the real facts, somehow there might be a way that those facts take us towards impeachment.”

But he added that “it would have to be extraordinary and almost unimaginable for Mitch McConnell to let it get through.”

And Hickenlooper highlighted that with McConnell – an ally of the president – controlling the Senate, impeachment “would become a vehicle to help” Trump. The impeachment bid on the House floor Wednesday is expected to fail.



https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...-pelosi-nadler

The other side’s position: “Impeachment will fail to remove Trump, so it’s pointless, and it also could hurt Democrats politically.”

and also- the voters dont want it:

A late June Washington Post-ABC News poll found that only 37 percent of US adults supported beginning impeachment proceedings while 59 percent opposed it. (Political independents opposed impeachment proceedings by nearly a two-to-one margin.)

3) A Senate trial: If impeachment articles do manage to pass through the House, the next stop is a trial before the Republican-controlled Senate. The details of how that would play out aren’t yet clear. Would Mitch McConnell even hold the trial, or just ignore it like he did Merrick Garland’s Supreme Court nomination? Would he hold the trial but turn it into a farce?

4) The Senate acquits: Should a trial happen, though, the ultimate outcome seems clear. It takes a two-thirds Senate majority to convict an impeached president and remove him from office. Since there are only 47 Senate Democrats, that means 20 Republican senators would have to vote to oust the president who remains overwhelmingly popular among their party’s voters.

Unless some opinion-shaking bombshell unlike anything we’ve yet seen in Trump’s presidency is found, this will not happen. So at the end of the road is defeat and disappointment for Democrats, and Trump still in office.

Whether Trump and his 2020 reelection effort would be helped or hurt by the whole months-long spectacle isn’t clear. (The conventional wisdom is that Bill Clinton’s impeachment and acquittal was bad for Republicans. ....


Still, looking at this whole likely sequence of events, it’s evident why Democratic leaders don’t want to go down this road — it doesn’t end anywhere good, and the politicians put in the toughest spots are House Democrats in districts Trump won.
  #166  
Old 09-03-2019, 12:16 AM
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Sometimes disorganization can be a positive boon. Not for the Forces of Darkness, they match in lockstep under the banner of Dear Leader. No, it is the Democrats who have the advantage of disarray. The Democrats who think their incumbency is threatened by an overly aggressive stance...can simply say so, can't they? "Well, its too early to really talk impeachment, got to be fair, let's just gather the facts and see where they lead us!" If they lead nowhere, then the Dem in question can burnish his centrist moderation, he's on record as having "opposed" impeachment. But of course he/she must keep an open mind, examine the evidence!

Now, consider what we already know. Flynn, Comey, Manafort, Gates, Douchey Bank....and of course, more. As you and I both know. And this is what we got for evidence when the House Republicans did their level best to keep the lid on. So, you think further investigation with actual teeth won't find much? You think Trump is fighting this hard because the evidence he is trying to hide will prove him innocent?

(What a dastardly plot! Fight tooth and nail to hide evidence, then reluctantly give way, and then the evidence shows nothing happened! Wow! Be like if the Nixon tapes were totally released and they showed Nixon knew nothing whatever about Watergate! Surprise, melon-farmers, say the Republicans, gloating in triumph....But I digress....Tip pf the hat to Tom Clancy)

....Unless some opinion-shaking bombshell unlike anything we’ve yet seen in Trump’s presidency is found, this will not happen.....

You don't think that will happen. Based on what, perzackly? Trump's brilliance, his keen mind for subtle conspiracy. You kidding? This is the guy who was directly warned by Obama and Yates....."Hey, this Flynn guy? Not a good choice, actually, really really bad!" And what did Trump do? Well, we know, don't we? I am somewhat simple minded, a boor of little brain, but seems to me that he is trying to hide something.

You disagree? You think we got it all, nothing more to see, you looky-loos, time to move along? So, really, this quote is presuming that we already have everything of any importance, despite the fact that we were largely prevented from looking. Despite the fact that he is doing his level best to stop us. But the Dems took the House, they were elected, and looking is their job. Wait, let me check. Yes. It is.

Now, we may fairly have a difference of opinion on that. Maybe you're right, maybe there isn't anything to find. Right now, I'd bet you a dollar against a kick in the nuts that ain't so.

Which bring us to the tactics of the move. An impeachment inquiry is a slightly different animal that just any old investigation into dark skulduggery. The very fact brings additional tools to be used. And a moderately cringing Democrat can fairly point to such things and say "Well, I don't see a case for impeachment yet, BUT lets see all the facts." Shirley, you don't object to seeing all the facts? I certainly don't, I view the prospect "with the calm confidence of a Methodist with four aces".

'Course, if there proves to be a smoking gub.... well, you got an out, nobody could have seen that coming! Except for some crazy ass radicals on the internet. Who were right. Again.

Last edited by elucidator; 09-03-2019 at 12:18 AM. Reason: Cogito ergo duh!
  #167  
Old 09-03-2019, 12:35 AM
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... As you and I both know. And this is what we got for evidence when the House Republicans did their level best to keep the lid on. So, you think further investigation with actual teeth won't find much? You think Trump is fighting this hard because the evidence he is trying to hide will prove him innocent?

...
Now, we may fairly have a difference of opinion on that. Maybe you're right, maybe there isn't anything to find. Right now, I'd bet you a dollar against a kick in the nuts that ain't so.
...
Sure, there's more stuff to find, but will it, can it change the votes of 20 GOP Senators? And the answer is no.

And, all the juicy stuff found so far? Still, the American public doesnt want trump impeached. Mainly becuase they wont here it on Fox.
  #168  
Old 09-03-2019, 10:24 AM
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Sure, there's more stuff to find, but will it, can it change the votes of 20 GOP Senators? And the answer is no.....
Your certainty is a refreshing change from the vacillating weakness of other people. So, do we take it that you already know what they will find, even though they do not?

Quote:
....And, all the juicy stuff found so far? Still, the American public doesnt want trump impeached. Mainly becuase they wont here it on Fox.
Yet. Shit happens and things change. You may have noticed.
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Old 09-03-2019, 11:05 AM
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....Unless some opinion-shaking bombshell unlike anything we’ve yet seen in Trump’s presidency is found, this will not happen.....
Probably a whole 'nother thread but ... after everything we've heard, seen and learned since 2015, what could possibly constitute this level of bombshell?
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Old 09-03-2019, 12:11 PM
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Your certainty is a refreshing change from the vacillating weakness of other people. So, do we take it that you already know what they will find, even though they do not?


Yet. Shit happens and things change. You may have noticed.
Nope, but I know that given the perfidy of the GOP senate there is nothing whatsoever that would change their minds. Tell me what would make Mitch vote to dump trump?
  #171  
Old 09-03-2019, 01:13 PM
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Nineteen Republican Senators who are more afraid of us than they are of him. Of course, started this little sub-thread asking if you can prove your thesis, that an impeachment inquiry would necessarily guarantee a Trump re-election. Outside of firmly stating this It Is So, I don't see that you have.
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Old 09-03-2019, 01:25 PM
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Nineteen Republican Senators who are more afraid of us than they are of him. Of course, started this little sub-thread asking if you can prove your thesis, that an impeachment inquiry would necessarily guarantee a Trump re-election. Outside of firmly stating this It Is So, I don't see that you have.
Good luck with that, and when you get that, please let us know.

I gave you cites, either read them or not.
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Old 09-03-2019, 04:29 PM
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Dems have an ass in the hole. Il Douche, Darth Shit-for-Brains. Plus, they don't have to go through with it. If such a horrendous backlash seems imminent, they just slow down. Just plod away on getting solid evidence, and wait. Trump is a fountain of options, the Old Faithful of Fuckup.

An official beginning of the investigation is not one move, its five. As I understand it, that designation opens up lines of investigation. Nervous Dems can still oppose impeachment, solidly supported Dems can demand. Any Dems say that they oppose impeachment and also! oppose investigation? Its a comfortable spot, doesn't shut out Dem voters and doesn't enrage anyone else! Well, of course you have to keep an open mind! Plain old common sense, right there!

Get that nervous feeling, criticize something about Lizzie or Bernie. Got my own set of gripes about Granny Nancy and the Brokedick Blue Dog Democrat "leadership", but this move is actually kinda smart. Who da thunk?

I mean, backlash? The people who already oppose Trump, like you and I, are suddenly going to decide to vote for him? Because AOL is such a feisty-pants? People who are already on his side going to get more on his side, and they double in numbers? Or what, perzackly?

Some Maghats will not be moved by any evidence short of a signed affidavit by God Almighty. So they are still going to vote for Trump. But if they are the same number of people, what kind of "lash" is that?

To boil down and oversimplify: an impeachment inquiry is a good political move, even if an actual impeachment is unlikely. Slender risk, likely good payoff, possible big payout. Politics or poker, that's a good bet.
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Last edited by elucidator; 09-03-2019 at 04:31 PM. Reason: D'oh! A dear, a female dear...
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Old 09-06-2019, 03:18 PM
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18 U.S.C. § 2074 - U.S. Code - Unannotated Title 18. Crimes and Criminal Procedure § 2074. False weather reports

"Whoever knowingly issues or publishes any counterfeit weather forecast or warning of weather conditions falsely representing such forecast or warning to have been issued or published by the Weather Bureau, United States Signal Service, or other branch of the Government service, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ninety days, or both."

https://arstechnica.com/science/2019...e-forecasters/

The "Knowingly" would be hard to prove, but would "publishes" apply?

Brian
  #175  
Old 09-07-2019, 08:55 AM
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Be kinda like indicting Jeffrey Dahmer for food handling violations of Health Dept. regulations.
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  #176  
Old 09-07-2019, 09:12 AM
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Hey, they got Al Capone for tax evasion.
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Old 09-16-2019, 04:50 AM
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Can't believe this Schrodinger's Impeachment stuff that the Dems have been doing. Is it an impeachment investigation? Some Dem leaders say yes, some say no, some say who knows?

We've got two major political parties. One's evil, and the other could give graduate courses on How To Look Weak and Vacillating.

Dudes, pick two or three big things that don't require major research, and impeach over them.

1. Obstruction of Justice - multiple instances documented in the Mueller Report
2. Babies in cages - need I say more?
3. Extorting Ukraine into digging up dirt on Biden by threatening to withhold $250M in military aid

There's three big-ass things to impeach over. Yeah, it would be good to dig into his finances, the Stormy hush money, the emoluments stuff, etc., but that would take time and is more penny-ante.

(And yes, I've already shared this opinion with my Congressperson. I think the people who answer his phone have come to recognize my voice.)
  #178  
Old 09-16-2019, 08:14 AM
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There's three big-ass things to impeach over. Yeah, it would be good to dig into his finances, the Stormy hush money, the emoluments stuff, etc., but that would take time and is more penny-ante.
Plus none of those are really crimes. It's not illegal to NOT divulge your tax return. The hush money would need to be proven and is paying hush money really illegal? Any emolument is legal if approved by Congress and I highly doubt Congress really wants to investigate foreign money. Remember that Hillary Clinton was running a pay for play scheme while Sec'y of State that was technically not an emolument from foreign powers since the money went to her foundation and not her. Do you really think her and Trump are the only ones that benefit indirectly from foreign money?
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  #179  
Old 09-16-2019, 12:42 PM
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...
We've got two major political parties. One's evil, and the other could give graduate courses on How To Look Weak and Vacillating.

Dudes, pick two or three big things that don't require major research, and impeach over them.

1. Obstruction of Justice - multiple instances documented in the Mueller Report
2. Babies in cages - need I say more?
3. Extorting Ukraine into digging up dirt on Biden by threatening to withhold $250M in military aid

There's three big-ass things to impeach over. ...
The Dems can not remove trump from Office. A indictment in the House does nothing but allow trump to say he was proven innocent of all crime by the senate. This will boost trumps chances for re-election.

Nothing "Weak and Vacillating", just "smart and political. "

Get a good number of GOP senators to announce they might vote for conviction and we will talk . Until then, any talk of "impeachment" is pointless, since what you mean is a indictment in the House which will lead to a decision of Not Guilty by the Senate.

So , you want to give "oh please dont throw me in that impeachment patch" trump exactly what he wants, then?

Last edited by DrDeth; 09-16-2019 at 12:46 PM.
  #180  
Old 09-16-2019, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
The Dems can not remove trump from Office. A indictment in the House does nothing but allow trump to say he was proven innocent of all crime by the senate. This will boost trumps chances for re-election.

Nothing "Weak and Vacillating", just "smart and political. "

Get a good number of GOP senators to announce they might vote for conviction and we will talk . Until then, any talk of "impeachment" is pointless, since what you mean is a indictment in the House which will lead to a decision of Not Guilty by the Senate.
^^^
This.

How many times does someone have to say this?
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  #181  
Old 09-16-2019, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
The Dems can not remove trump from Office. A indictment in the House does nothing but allow trump to say he was proven innocent of all crime by the senate. This will boost trumps chances for re-election.

Nothing "Weak and Vacillating", just "smart and political. "

Get a good number of GOP senators to announce they might vote for conviction and we will talk . Until then, any talk of "impeachment" is pointless, since what you mean is a indictment in the House which will lead to a decision of Not Guilty by the Senate.

So , you want to give "oh please dont throw me in that impeachment patch" trump exactly what he wants, then?
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  #182  
Old 09-16-2019, 01:59 PM
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  #183  
Old 09-16-2019, 02:24 PM
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O.J. was acquitted of murder by a jury, but the effect of the trial wasn't that it made everyone think that he wasn't guilty.
  #184  
Old 09-16-2019, 02:33 PM
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^^^
This.

How many times does someone have to say this?
Forty-two.
  #185  
Old 09-16-2019, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
The Dems can not remove trump from Office. A indictment in the House does nothing but allow trump to say he was proven innocent of all crime by the senate.
He can say anything he wants - First Amendment, you know. He can say it today if he wants.
Quote:
This will boost trumps chances for re-election.
This is an evidence-free assertion.
Quote:
Nothing "Weak and Vacillating", just "smart and political. "
IYHO.

ETA: it definitely is NOT 'smart and political' to be contradicting each other about whether they are or are not having an impeachment inquiry. You'd at least have an argument if they'd decided one way or the other what they're doing. Nothing smart and political about being evasive of either alternative. That IS "weak and vacillating." Practically the textbook definition.
Quote:
Get a good number of GOP senators to announce they might vote for conviction and we will talk . Until then, any talk of "impeachment" is pointless, since what you mean is a indictment in the House which will lead to a decision of Not Guilty by the Senate.
Cool! With the whole nation watching, we lay out Trump's worst crimes, first in the House Judiciary Committee, then on the House floor, and then on the Senate floor - and the Republicans all go on record as saying Trump shouldn't be removed from office anyway.

Yeah, I'll take that. I want the Dems to be able to run against every GOP Representative, and every GOP Senator up for election in 2020, on the basis of the crimes they considered to be A-OK.
Quote:
So , you want to give "oh please dont throw me in that impeachment patch" trump exactly what he wants, then?
And you say on the basis of what, exactly, that this is what Trump wants? Am I privileged to know a genuine psychic? How many fingers am I holding up right now?

Last edited by RTFirefly; 09-16-2019 at 02:47 PM.
  #186  
Old 09-16-2019, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by RTFirefly View Post
He can say anything he wants - First Amendment, you know. He can say it today if he wants.
This is an evidence-free assertion. IYHO.

ETA: it definitely is NOT 'smart and political' to be contradicting each other about whether they are or are not having an impeachment inquiry. You'd at least have an argument if they'd decided one way or the other what they're doing. Nothing smart and political about being evasive of either alternative..... With the whole nation watching, ...

Yeah, I'll take that. I want the Dems to be able to run against every GOP Representative, and every GOP Senator up for election in 2020, on the basis of the crimes they considered to be A-OK. And you say on the basis of what, exactly, that this is what Trump wants? Am I privileged to know a genuine psychic? How many fingers am I holding up right now?
But he'd have proof, since the senate will vote Not Guilty- making him....Not Guilty.

Most political experts say the same. I have included cites in this thread.

No, they are looking for enuf evidence to perhaps get some republicans to vote Guilty. It's a long shot, but why not continue investigating?

"With the whole nation watching"...? It is to laugh. No, they didnt watch the Mueller hearings and they wont watch these either. And, most Americans dont want Impeachment.

Political experts say it wont matter, and in fact will help trump.

One- the middle one.
  #187  
Old 09-16-2019, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
But he'd have proof, since the senate will vote Not Guilty- making him....Not Guilty.

Most political experts say the same. I have included cites in this thread.

No, they are looking for enuf evidence to perhaps get some republicans to vote Guilty. It's a long shot, but why not continue investigating?

"With the whole nation watching"...? It is to laugh. No, they didnt watch the Mueller hearings and they wont watch these either. And, most Americans dont want Impeachment.
So you say.
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  #188  
Old 09-16-2019, 05:32 PM
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So you say.
No, so polls say:


https://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...gh-impeachment

A majority of voters wants to see a new president in the White House, according to a new poll, but 59 percent say President Trump should not be impeached.

Fifty-seven percent of respondents said it is time to have a new president, according to a Monmouth University poll released Thursday. However, only 35 percent said they think Trump should be impeached.

Democrats overwhelmingly backed impeachment, at 72 percent. Only 39 percent of independents and 8 percent of Republicans agree, based on the poll.

Overall support for impeachment has ranged between 35 and 42 percent since Monmouth started polling that question in July 2017.


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ed/2090155001/

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/majorit...ew-poll-finds/

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/w...owest-level-35
While some 2020 Democrats and House leaders are eager to open impeachment hearings against President Trump, the public has lost interest.

According to the latest Monmouth University Poll, which has been tracking the issue, 59% disagree with the Democrats, and just 35% agree.

“Support for the president’s removal via impeachment has ranged between 35% and 42% since Monmouth started asking this question in July 2017, with the current results at the low end of that range,” said the analysis.

What’s more, only 1 in 5 think impeachment will lead to a Senate conviction and removal from office.

“Donald Trump is not a popular president by most measures, but the appetite for impeachment remains low,” said Patrick Murray, director of the independent Monmouth University Polling Institute.

Added polling expert Ron Faucheux, author of a daily statistical newsletter, “Impeachment is a loser issue for Democrats.”
  #189  
Old 09-16-2019, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
No, so polls say:


https://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...gh-impeachment

A majority of voters wants to see a new president in the White House, according to a new poll, but 59 percent say President Trump should not be impeached.

Fifty-seven percent of respondents said it is time to have a new president, according to a Monmouth University poll released Thursday. However, only 35 percent said they think Trump should be impeached.

Democrats overwhelmingly backed impeachment, at 72 percent. Only 39 percent of independents and 8 percent of Republicans agree, based on the poll.

Overall support for impeachment has ranged between 35 and 42 percent since Monmouth started polling that question in July 2017.


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ed/2090155001/

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/majorit...ew-poll-finds/

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/w...owest-level-35
While some 2020 Democrats and House leaders are eager to open impeachment hearings against President Trump, the public has lost interest.

According to the latest Monmouth University Poll, which has been tracking the issue, 59% disagree with the Democrats, and just 35% agree.

“Support for the president’s removal via impeachment has ranged between 35% and 42% since Monmouth started asking this question in July 2017, with the current results at the low end of that range,” said the analysis.

What’s more, only 1 in 5 think impeachment will lead to a Senate conviction and removal from office.

“Donald Trump is not a popular president by most measures, but the appetite for impeachment remains low,” said Patrick Murray, director of the independent Monmouth University Polling Institute.

Added polling expert Ron Faucheux, author of a daily statistical newsletter, “Impeachment is a loser issue for Democrats.”
That's why we need leadership.
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  #190  
Old 09-16-2019, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
But he'd have proof, since the senate will vote Not Guilty- making him....Not Guilty.
It'll be like the trials of the killers of 1960s civil rights workers in the South. They were acquitted, but whether you believed the verdict was right depended on where you stood.
Quote:
Most political experts say the same. I have included cites in this thread.
I didn't know there was a well-defined universe of 'political experts' to be able to reach any conclusions about what 'most' of them say. Were they polled? What was the sample size? And what was the sampling frame?

Seriously, that's one truly bullshit statement.
  #191  
Old 09-16-2019, 10:19 PM
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...
I didn't know there was a well-defined universe of 'political experts' to be able to reach any conclusions about what 'most' of them say. Were they polled? What was the sample size? And what was the sampling frame?

Seriously, that's one truly bullshit statement.
Well, it's better than your bare opinion, with nothing to back it up.
  #192  
Old 09-17-2019, 03:35 PM
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mr nadler needs to get tough on things like today's inquiry. start holding them in civil contempt, and levy fines. this is ridiculous.
  #193  
Old 09-17-2019, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by RTFirefly View Post
He can say anything he wants - First Amendment, you know. He can say it today if he wants.
...
You might ask yourself why he isn't currently claiming that the Senate has acquitted him of all charges, since, as you note, he could be claiming that today.

Possibly it's because he knows that actual headlines will be more influential than anything he could say. Senate Acquits Trump will reach the millions who barely pay attention to politics, in a way that Trump's usual blortings cannot.



Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
But he'd have proof, since the senate will vote Not Guilty- making him....Not Guilty.
Most political experts say the same. I have included cites in this thread.

No, they are looking for enuf evidence to perhaps get some republicans to vote Guilty. It's a long shot, but why not continue investigating?

"With the whole nation watching"...? It is to laugh. No, they didnt watch the Mueller hearings and they wont watch these either. And, most Americans dont want Impeachment.
Political experts say it wont matter, and in fact will help trump. ...
^This.

Particularly the emphasized (by me) part. The fantasy that millions of Americans will put down their phones and game-controllers and other devices and make their way to C-SPAN (which I'd bet money is the only outlet that would show impeachment hearings in anything like complete coverage) is as persistent as it is ridiculous.



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Originally Posted by RTFirefly View Post
... (And yes, I've already shared this opinion with my Congressperson. I think the people who answer his phone have come to recognize my voice.)
Please tell me you use a Groucho voice!

(my emphasis in the quotes)
  #194  
Old 09-18-2019, 08:02 AM
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mr nadler needs to get tough on things like today's inquiry. start holding them in civil contempt, and levy fines. this is ridiculous.
Agreed. If this is the best Nadler et. al. can do, they are fucked from the beginning. He needs to recall the goofball Lewandowski, demand answers, and if he brings up his bullshit executive privilege defenses again and refuses to answer, have him thrown in jail for contempt of Congress.

Last edited by Fiddle Peghead; 09-18-2019 at 08:02 AM.
  #195  
Old 09-18-2019, 08:08 AM
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That will never happen. It's gonna go just like yesterday for another year, then we'll have an election.
  #196  
Old 09-18-2019, 08:43 AM
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If they feel other witnesses will pull the same bullshit, it's gonna have to happen or obviously as I said they are fucked. Since I believe they will continue to hold these hearings, I believe they will also try to find ways to force witnesses to answer questions and that it won't go just like yesterday.
  #197  
Old 09-18-2019, 09:50 AM
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I hope it doesn't. But I have no faith that it won't. Except for a couple of bulldogs (AOC for one), these House Democrats seem to be disappointing me like rooting for a crappy sports team in a game they're flubbing. I also know this is no game.
  #198  
Old 09-18-2019, 11:08 AM
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I also know this is no game.
As much as it pains me to say so, after a long life of watching these things play out, oh it is ABSOLUTELY a game.

Rules? Laws? Pshaw!

The game is about raw political power.
  #199  
Old 09-18-2019, 01:19 PM
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Agreed. If this is the best Nadler et. al. can do, they are fucked from the beginning. He needs to recall the goofball Lewandowski, demand answers, and if he brings up his bullshit executive privilege defenses again and refuses to answer, have him thrown in jail for contempt of Congress.
Nadler doesn't have the votes to do so.
  #200  
Old 09-18-2019, 01:44 PM
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Nadler doesn't have the votes to do so.
I believe under inherent contempt someone can actually be hauled off to jail without a vote. Not sure. But no matter. Nadler must at least attempt getting a contempt citation going, or just give it up. That is the gist of what I'm saying. No more just going along with whatever bullshit a witness tries to pull.

Last edited by Fiddle Peghead; 09-18-2019 at 01:45 PM.
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