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  #201  
Old 11-16-2017, 03:46 PM
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Is it still "groping" if there is no direct physical contact? To my eye, the picture offered in evidence shows a "pantomime" of groping. His left hand is clearly not in contact, but several inches away, as "background" is clearly visible. As to the right hand, the camera angle doesn't make that clear. However, Sen Franken has his head turned over his right shoulder, a posture that would pull the right arm back. Don't believe it, try it. Put both of your hands down next to each other, then turn to look back over your shoulder. Your right hand will move away.

Also, how can she be sure she was groped if she claims to have been asleep?

As to pursuit and harassment by Franken...she couldn't forcefully object? Because Al Franken was so powerful within the USO? Given his political unreliability, I was surprised they let him go in the first place. Bob Hope he was not, though he could have re-used a few of those "haircut bath job" jokes that were so popular at the time.

What? She was afraid of a liberal weenie? (Sorry, Al, you probably could take Trey Gowdy. But Rachel Maddow would kick your ass into next week....)

And finally, a relatively minor note: Al. IIRC, did not serve. But if he managed to make a few hundred war weary soldiers laugh for even a moment....he did far more good for them than he ever could with a weapon.
  #202  
Old 11-16-2017, 03:49 PM
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That might be the single most disappointing post I have ever seen you make, luci.

I'm out.
  #203  
Old 11-16-2017, 03:53 PM
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...it has nothing to do with my post. Having a "documented record of right-wing activism" doesn't mean Leeann Tweeden is less credible than someone with a "documented record of left-wing activism".
If she's accusing a left-winger then of course it does. If the accused is a right winger then it's the opposite way around. (All else being equal.)

In any event, the part of your post I was disputing was your claim that political affiliation was moot because of "a photo and a contrite accused". That doesn't hold, where there's any relevant ambiguity.

Last edited by Fotheringay-Phipps; 11-16-2017 at 03:54 PM.
  #204  
Old 11-16-2017, 03:58 PM
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She actually explained that in her write up. Her media team has been heavily covering the Weinstein scandal and she feels safe and supported enough to talk about it.

Do you understand how sexual trauma works, at all?
Not the same thing at all.

Weinstein maintained real power in Hollywood. Up until very recently there could have been very real and severe consequences for crossing Weinstein. He even reputedly had a private security company working for him to stop would-be accusers.

How is this true of her and Franken? Does Franken have a history of making or ruining careers in Hollywood? Is there evidence he helped or impeded Tweeden's career in any way? Was she told by her agent she better not cross Franken or else? Did she think Franken would come back and molest her? Does Franken send security forces out to harass her?

By her own account she pushed Franken away when he kissed her and threatened him if he ever did that again. That does not sound like a woman who is afraid of her attacker or in trauma over it.
  #205  
Old 11-16-2017, 04:05 PM
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.....By her own account she pushed Franken away when he kissed her and threatened him if he ever did that again. That does not sound like a woman who is afraid of her attacker or in trauma over it.
Missed this. Can cite so I don't have to seek it out?
  #206  
Old 11-16-2017, 04:05 PM
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The other Democratic Senators are supporting the call for a full ethics investigation:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/senate-de...203047164.html
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  #207  
Old 11-16-2017, 04:07 PM
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This is one of those situations in which the right thing to do is also the politically smart thing. How does a long investigation help the Democrats? How does a groper staying in the senate help the Democrats? He should just step down.
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  #208  
Old 11-16-2017, 04:07 PM
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Slate is on the warpath:

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There is no rational reason to doubt the truth of Tweeden’s accusations, no legitimate defense of Franken’s actions, and no ambiguity here at all: Franken should resign from the Senate immediately. Democrats should call for him to step down straightaway. This revelation is a test of the Democratic Party’s consistency, honesty, and decency.
and since Weinstein came up, I thought I might share this photo.
  #209  
Old 11-16-2017, 04:07 PM
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...it has nothing to do with my post. Having a "documented record of right-wing activism" doesn't mean Leeann Tweeden is less credible than someone with a "documented record of left-wing activism".



You shouldn't be making anything out of it at this point.
Fox News commentators are prepared to tell lies in order to hurt their political opponents. If you haven't figured that out yet, I don't know what to tell you.
  #210  
Old 11-16-2017, 04:08 PM
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Slate is on the warpath:



and since Weinstein came up, I thought I might share this photo.
They are correct. It's time to show that the Democratic party actually is morally superior to the Republicans. A great political opportunity, if they just take it.
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  #211  
Old 11-16-2017, 04:11 PM
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Credible accusation?
...yep.

Quote:
She admitted there were no witnesses and admitted she did not tell anyone about it (except perhaps some nameless friends but no one in a position of authority).
No witnesses? She didn't tell anyone about it? Oh she did tell some people about it? But not an "authority?"

This isn't the exception in these sorts of story Whack-a-Mole. This is the norm. If you don't find this accusation credible then you probably didn't find Asia Argento's accusation credible. Or Emily Nestor. Or Lucia Stoller. Emma de Caunes. Gwyneth Paltrow. Katherine Kendall. Léa Seydoux. Angie Everhart.

Quote:
Franken disputes how the kiss went down
Weinstein disputes how it all went down. Cosby disputes how it all went down. Takei disputes how it all went down. Again: there isn't anything unique here.

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and apologized for the picture but so far it is just a tasteless posed picture and no groping occurred (Tweeden was asleep so she cannot say whether she was groped). In the picture he is not groping her.
Are you sure? That right hand sure looks like a grope to me. But lets pretend that it wasn't a grope. Is that really your defense of the picture? It wasn't an actual grope, but a pretend grope? That the lack of physical contact (by millimetres) is somehow an acceptable defense of this "tasteless" picture? (And I don't agree with your characterization that this is a "posed" picture. As you point out Tweeden was asleep. She did not "pose.")

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That a politician issues an apology rather than wade into the discussion is what they all do, right and left. Absolutely nothing new there. Politics 101.
Irrelevant.

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It is fair to ask why this woman came forward with this information now. Why not during his previous election runs? Why not wait till his next election run (or especially if he chose to run for president)? What is special about now that she felt it was important to reveal this information that she did not feel needed revealing for the past eleven years?
Oh for fucks sakes. It wasn't fair to ask why Moore's accusers have come out right before the election, and it isn't fair to question why Leeann Tweeden (she has a name) has come forward now. If you hadn't noticed: the last couple of weeks have been an empowering one for women. Women had come out before. And they have been historically generally disbelieved before. But they are being believed just a little bit more now. (Unless they hold the wrong political viewpoint: as this thread demonstrates.) So if anybody is wondering why a women chooses to come forward now with historical allegations of sexual harassment or abuse then the only conclusion I can come to is that they must have been in a coma the last month. Because otherwise how on earth can you have missed the sea-change that is happening in society right now?
  #212  
Old 11-16-2017, 04:12 PM
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Missed this. Can cite so I don't have to seek it out?
Sure. From Leeann Tweeden's original story on this:

Quote:
He repeated that actors really need to rehearse everything and that we must practice the kiss. I said ‘OK’ so he would stop badgering me. We did the line leading up to the kiss and then he came at me, put his hand on the back of my head, mashed his lips against mine and aggressively stuck his tongue in my mouth.

I immediately pushed him away with both of my hands against his chest and told him if he ever did that to me again I wouldn’t be so nice about it the next time.

I walked away. All I could think about was getting to a bathroom as fast as possible to rinse the taste of him out of my mouth.

I felt disgusted and violated.

SOURCE: http://www.kabc.com/2017/11/16/leean...or-al-franken/
  #213  
Old 11-16-2017, 04:13 PM
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They are correct. It's time to show that the Democratic party actually is morally superior to the Republicans. A great political opportunity, if they just take it.
I for one would have a harder time snickering at them and making jokes about "if they go low, we go high" if they would, but with posters like Thing Fish, elucidator, and Whack-a-Mole, I don't think there's much danger of it. I wish you luck in jousting at your windmills though.
  #214  
Old 11-16-2017, 04:16 PM
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Sure. From Leeann Tweeden's original story on this:
Yep it was there, and my eyes ran right over it. "Golden years", my ass....

Last edited by elucidator; 11-16-2017 at 04:16 PM.
  #215  
Old 11-16-2017, 04:16 PM
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If you hadn't noticed: the last couple of weeks have been an empowering one for women. Women had come out before. And they have been historically generally disbelieved before. But they are being believed just a little bit more now. (Unless they hold the wrong political viewpoint: as this thread demonstrates.) So if anybody is wondering why a women chooses to come forward now with historical allegations of sexual harassment or abuse then the only conclusion I can come to is that they must have been in a coma the last month. Because otherwise how on earth can you have missed the sea-change that is happening in society right now?
I agree with this. In the current post-Weinstein atmosphere it's pretty apparent that sex harassment accusers are going to get a pretty sympathetic hearing. It makes sense that many people who were reluctant to come forward until now would do so at this point.

I don't see anything suspicious at all about her timing. It's not like Franken is in middle of an election. (The notion that this is an indirect way of helping Moore seems very far-fetched, especially as it's not likely to be effective.) There are many people accusing all sorts of people these days - you can't go a couple of days without a new accusation. (I think Stallone is the latest.) Most of these people are not even involved in politics.

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  #216  
Old 11-16-2017, 04:20 PM
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What is this pattern you speak of?
So far it's the two incidents I've quoted already in this thread (in some cases multiple times) so I won't quote again, but I expect more incidents to come to light now that the door is open. I'm not really sure why you're on the defense train for the guy, but it's looking more and more like it's going to be the defense train wreck within a week.
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Old 11-16-2017, 04:21 PM
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One thing I don't get is all this smack talk about the Republican Party. Is this the same Republican Party whose leaders have called on Moore to drop out of the race, threatened to expel him from the Senate if he gets elected, and said "“He’s obviously not fit to be in the United States Senate, and we’ve looked at all the options to try and prevent that from happening"? Or some other Republican Party?
  #218  
Old 11-16-2017, 04:27 PM
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No witnesses? She didn't tell anyone about it? Oh she did tell some people about it? But not an "authority?"

This isn't the exception in these sorts of story Whack-a-Mole. This is the norm. If you don't find this accusation credible then you probably didn't find Asia Argento's accusation credible. Or Emily Nestor. Or Lucia Stoller. Emma de Caunes. Gwyneth Paltrow. Katherine Kendall. Léa Seydoux. Angie Everhart.



Weinstein disputes how it all went down. Cosby disputes how it all went down. Takei disputes how it all went down. Again: there isn't anything unique here.
I hereby state that Banquet Bear molested me fifteen years ago.*

I didn't tell anyone at the time but so what? That's the norm.

I am willing to bet Banquet Bear disputes this but then all molesters do.

Banquet Bear should resign from whatever job he's at. I would have come forward sooner but I was too afraid to. Now I feel emboldened and safe to let the world know.

*That statement is 100% not true. I made it up to make a point.

Apparently though Banquet Bear thinks my accusation should be all that is needed.


Quote:
Are you sure? That right hand sure looks like a grope to me. But lets pretend that it wasn't a grope. Is that really your defense of the picture? It wasn't an actual grope, but a pretend grope? That the lack of physical contact (by millimetres) is somehow an acceptable defense of this "tasteless" picture? (And I don't agree with your characterization that this is a "posed" picture. As you point out Tweeden was asleep. She did not "pose.")
Yes I am sure that picture does not show groping. Tweeden cannot say whether she was groped either since she was asleep. Unless someone on the plane testifies that Franken went on to feel Tweeden up there is no evidence she was groped.

This is important because the photo is merely tasteless. Groping her is sexual assault and a crime. Bit of a difference there.



Quote:
Irrelevant.
It is relevant in ascertaining how contrite you think Franken is and whether his apology is an admission he committed a crime.



Quote:
Oh for fucks sakes. It wasn't fair to ask why Moore's accusers have come out right before the election, and it isn't fair to question why Leeann Tweeden (she has a name) has come forward now. If you hadn't noticed: the last couple of weeks have been an empowering one for women. Women had come out before. And they have been historically generally disbelieved before. But they are being believed just a little bit more now. (Unless they hold the wrong political viewpoint: as this thread demonstrates.) So if anybody is wondering why a women chooses to come forward now with historical allegations of sexual harassment or abuse then the only conclusion I can come to is that they must have been in a coma the last month. Because otherwise how on earth can you have missed the sea-change that is happening in society right now?
Of course it was fair to ask why Moore's accusers came forward. Certainly the first one or two. There is always a question implicit in these accusations of far distant past events of why the accuser waited so long.

And as I noted while Moore and Weinstein and Spacey wield sufficient power to be a credible threat to a would-be accuser I am not seeing where Tweeden had reason to fear reprisal of any sort from Franken.

And as for using Tweeden's name I have done so repeatedly in this thread. Feel free to check.

Last edited by Whack-a-Mole; 11-16-2017 at 04:28 PM.
  #219  
Old 11-16-2017, 04:28 PM
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I for one would have a harder time snickering at them and making jokes about "if they go low, we go high" if they would, but with posters like Thing Fish, elucidator, and Whack-a-Mole, I don't think there's much danger of it. I wish you luck in jousting at your windmills though.
I don't care to be lumped in with those two. The photo shows him making a tasteless, offensive and sexist "joke" for which he damn well should be contrite. Whether he is actually touching her may be relevant as to whether it legally constitutes sexual assault, but doesn't change that fact. I personally don't think that what's shown in this picture rises to the level of "let's demand his immediate resignation from the Senate", but it's really, really icky.

And I agree that, whatever other reasons there may be to question the accuser's credibility, the "well, why did she wait until now to tell anyone?" line is always inappropriate.

As of now, I don't think that there is sufficient evidence of serious wrongdoing to say that the party leadership should pressure him to resign. If he thinks it best for him to leave rather than become a distraction, I would certainly not try to talk him out of it.
  #220  
Old 11-16-2017, 04:30 PM
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...Or some other Republican Party?
In case you haven't noticed, there are at least two. Your Father's Oldsmobile Republicans....Mittens, Jeb(!) and that ilk, and their tormentors, the Batshit Baboons. In that struggle, I favor Romney, though I still would like someone to explain how he's had the same touch of grey at the temples for fifteen years.
  #221  
Old 11-16-2017, 04:30 PM
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So far it's the two incidents I've quoted already in this thread (in some cases multiple times) so I won't quote again, but I expect more incidents to come to light now that the door is open. I'm not really sure why you're on the defense train for the guy, but it's looking more and more like it's going to be the defense train wreck within a week.
I submit two instances of unrelated events separated by years does not a pattern make.

YMMV

If more credible accusations come to light I'll be right there with you.
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Old 11-16-2017, 04:33 PM
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Tweeden accepts Franken's apology. The victim thinks an ethics investigation is up to Congress. The victim sees no need for Franken to step down, unless other women come forward.

Sounds reasonable. I think there should be an ethics investigation though.

http://thehill.com/homenews/news/360...ts-his-apology
  #223  
Old 11-16-2017, 04:34 PM
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One thing I don't get is all this smack talk about the Republican Party. Is this the same Republican Party whose leaders have called on Moore to drop out of the race, threatened to expel him from the Senate if he gets elected, and said "“He’s obviously not fit to be in the United States Senate, and we’ve looked at all the options to try and prevent that from happening"? Or some other Republican Party?
Well, in fairness, it's also the Republican Party whose voters appear prepared to elect Moore to the Senate in spite of it all. But I will concede that at least the non-Alabama parts of the party's leadership have dealt with the situation somewhat better than I would have expected.
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Old 11-16-2017, 04:34 PM
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Fox News commentators are prepared to tell lies in order to hurt their political opponents.
...not every Fox News commentator is "prepared to tell lies in order to hurt their political opponents." Not every word that comes out of a Fox News commentator is a lie. Being a Fox News commentator is not the equivalent of a "Scarlet Letter." A claim of sexual harassment should be examined independent of hyperbole.

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If you haven't figured that out yet, I don't know what to tell you.
You seem to be struggling with things to "tell me." Just tell me already.
  #225  
Old 11-16-2017, 04:36 PM
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I don't care to be lumped in with those two. ...
Then it's rich, rich irony that the rest of your post is a long-winded explanation about why you oppose calls for his resignation, and it was followed immediately by posts by "those two".

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 11-16-2017 at 04:36 PM.
  #226  
Old 11-16-2017, 04:37 PM
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...Tweeden accepts Franken's apology. The victim thinks an ethics investigation is up to Congress. The victim sees no need for Franken to step down, unless other women come forward.
A darkly suspicious mind might wonder if the prospect of testifying under oath might have given her pause. Did she make this statement after Franken publicly welcomed such an investigation?

Last edited by elucidator; 11-16-2017 at 04:39 PM.
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Old 11-16-2017, 04:40 PM
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One thing I don't get is all this smack talk about the Republican Party. Is this the same Republican Party whose leaders have called on Moore to drop out of the race, threatened to expel him from the Senate if he gets elected, and said "“He’s obviously not fit to be in the United States Senate, and we’ve looked at all the options to try and prevent that from happening"? Or some other Republican Party?
It's the party that rallied to Trump, and continues to do so, for the most part.
  #228  
Old 11-16-2017, 04:41 PM
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A darkly suspicious mind might wonder if the prospect of testifying under oath might have given her pause. Did she make this statement after Franken publicly welcomed such an investigation?
I'd encourage that "darkly suspicious mind" to go fucking stump for Roy Moore, because that's where they'd feel most comfortable, and where they belong.
  #229  
Old 11-16-2017, 04:42 PM
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I for one would have a harder time snickering at them and making jokes about "if they go low, we go high" if they would, but with posters like Thing Fish, elucidator, and Whack-a-Mole, I don't think there's much danger of it. I wish you luck in jousting at your windmills though.
We'll see. Hopefully they're having these conversations right now in the leadership and will come to the right decision. If they don't, I will be quite disappointed.
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Old 11-16-2017, 04:49 PM
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One thing I don't get is all this smack talk about the Republican Party. Is this the same Republican Party ...
That put Donald Freeking Trump in the Oval Office?
  #231  
Old 11-16-2017, 04:53 PM
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A darkly suspicious mind might wonder if the prospect of testifying under oath might have given her pause. Did she make this statement after Franken publicly welcomed such an investigation?
I see a re-education camp in your future. I'd recommend a tactical retreat, amigo!
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Old 11-16-2017, 04:54 PM
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Yeah, 'luc, you're treading down a dark, lonely path peppered with "Roy Moore for Senate" signs.
  #233  
Old 11-16-2017, 04:55 PM
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That put Donald Freeking Trump in the Oval Office?
The Dems take part of the blame for that too. Not just the Repubs
  #234  
Old 11-16-2017, 04:59 PM
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Yeah, 'luc, you're treading down a dark, lonely path peppered with "Roy Moore for Senate" signs.
Got any matches?
  #235  
Old 11-16-2017, 04:59 PM
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The Dems take part of the blame for that too. Not just the Repubs
Right, yeah.
  #236  
Old 11-16-2017, 05:01 PM
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nm

Last edited by Ludovic; 11-16-2017 at 05:01 PM.
  #237  
Old 11-16-2017, 05:04 PM
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A darkly suspicious mind might wonder if the prospect of testifying under oath might have given her pause. Did she make this statement after Franken publicly welcomed such an investigation?
Honestly, my mind is free of suspicion and the evidence to me suggests that Tweeden is a stand up woman.

A range of interpretations is consistent with her claims. She called out Franken, but isn't pressing for blood. Here is her depiction of her motives:
Quote:
Tweeden said Thursday that she was afraid to speak out when the incident happened out of fear of losing her job, explaining why she decided to come out with the allegations now.

She said Rep. Jackie Speier (D-Calif.) inspired her to come forward with her story. The congresswoman earlier this month shared her own experience of sexual harassment, describing an instance when a chief of staff forcibly kissed her when she was a congressional staffer.

“2017 is not 2006,” Tweeden said. “Maybe I can be somebody’s Jackie Speier and they can tell their story in real time and not wait.”
I frankly don't think the picture depicts groping. I have a relatively charitable view of events so far depicted, a view that would change if more women come forward against Franken. But at the very least we have a real opportunity to curb asshole behavior to some extent, including the drunk pics that Snowboarder Bo linked to. I see that as a good thing.

Last edited by Measure for Measure; 11-16-2017 at 05:06 PM.
  #238  
Old 11-16-2017, 05:16 PM
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I submit two instances of unrelated events separated by years does not a pattern make.
I submit that defending someone who shows a pattern of aggressively stalking women by saying that only two have come forward so far does not good sense make.

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If more credible accusations come to light I'll be right there with you.
What's the exact number, and what exactly do you mean by 'credible' - do the two so far count? Your statement sounds like you're committing yourself to something, but it really isn't - you can keep saying 'we need more for me to believe it', or do like several people in this thread and claim that even the perpetrator admits to aren't credible.
  #239  
Old 11-16-2017, 05:17 PM
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I could easily see Franken making a similar joke with the sleeping guy next to her where he's holding a jar of vaseline and making a thumbs up gesture near his groin.

The thing I see that's different with Franklin versus the other men (and it's a minor difference) is that he's making a joke that is sexual in nature as opposed to being sexual. I also feel that way about the kiss. He was trying to be funny in a crude way. I would bet that if he was rehearsing with another comedian, they would each be trying to take it over the line in a funny way (maybe she'd grab his butt when they kissed). I feel that sort of line crossing is seen as okay between comedians.

The other harassment claims are from men who are trying to be sexual and are trying to have a sexual experience. I don't think Franklin was hoping the rehearsal kiss was going to lead to a makeout session. I don't think he was getting all turned on or hoping it would lead to anything. He thought it would be funny in the same way we might make a big, fat "SMACK" sound when kissing our SO in front of other people.

I'm not trying to excuse what he did, but I feel his motivation is different than the other men. All these accusations coming out are good since it will hopefully lead to men not crossing that line even when they're just doing it for a joke.
  #240  
Old 11-16-2017, 05:21 PM
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It's the party that rallied to Trump, and continues to do so, for the most part.
The Republican Party establishment did everything they could to stop Trump, but ultimately the voters have the final say. And now the guy is president. Unless you think he should be impeached over pussy-grabbing, you need to deal with him. Doesn't say anything at all about anyone's opinions of his harassing actions.
  #241  
Old 11-16-2017, 05:24 PM
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The Republican Party establishment did everything they could to stop Trump, but ultimately the voters have the final say. And now the guy is president. Unless you think he should be impeached over pussy-grabbing, you need to deal with him. Doesn't say anything at all about anyone's opinions of his harassing actions.
No, they didn't do everything they could -- they could have supported Hillary Clinton (or Evan McMullin or someone else). They could have collectively criticized him during and after the campaign.

It's laughable that they "did everything they could to stop Trump". They very obviously did not. Tons of Republicans campaigned alongside him, and the party apparatus worked closely with his campaign. It says a lot about what those individuals involved are willing to support -- they're willing to support behavior like Trump's.
  #242  
Old 11-16-2017, 05:27 PM
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I'm not trying to excuse what he did, but I feel his motivation is different than the other men.
If the next idea in that sequence is not "and therefore he is to some extent excused," then what's the significance of it? I don't understand what else goes there.

The allegation is that he kissed her against her will, and that he groped her while she was asleep. There's a picture, which shows what the picture shows.

You believe that he was trying to be funny in doing those things, and let's just say you're right, without argument. I don't see why that's different from if he was actually just trying to kiss a woman / grope a woman / pretend to grope a woman because he liked it, if the difference isn't that you think it's less bad. If you think it's less bad, then I understand why you're bringing it up, even though I disagree. But you're saying it isn't that. So what is the difference?

Do you think it makes a difference to what her experience was?
  #243  
Old 11-16-2017, 05:27 PM
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No, they didn't do everything they could -- they could have supported Hillary Clinton (or Evan McMullin or someone else). They could have collectively criticized him during and after the campaign.

It's laughable that they "did everything they could to stop Trump". They very obviously did not. Tons of Republicans campaigned alongside him, and the party apparatus worked closely with his campaign. It says a lot about what those individuals involved are willing to support -- they're willing to support behavior like Trump's.
In the primaries they did everything to stop him. But the voters spoke about that.

Endorsing Hillary was not an option. Whatever you think of sexual harassment, it's ridiculous to support someone you disagree with on serious policy issues over personal failings.

The issues that face this country are substantive. The impact of the character of the president is largely symbolic. Symbolic counts for something, but not nearly as much as substance.

Last edited by Fotheringay-Phipps; 11-16-2017 at 05:28 PM.
  #244  
Old 11-16-2017, 05:27 PM
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Well, if you read the article, it's obvious:
I keep missing the part where Mr. Franken states his intentions. Could you highlight that part?
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Originally Posted by Pantastic View Post
But maybe she's overreacting, or hyping this up for the benefit of conservatives? Well, let me set a ground rule: I don't think that's it's a stretch to say that a person doing something that "isn't funny" is "completely inappropriate", that is "obvious" that the victim and "millions of other women would feel violated by it" is pretty obviously acting with malicious intent. With that in mind, what does Al Franken say about the picture?
Thanks; I hadn't seen that before.
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For one, the person denying the obvious malicious intent involved when a man who had been harassing a woman after being rebuffed by her took "completely inappropriate" pictures of her that it's obvious to him that she would feel violated by.
Who is that?
  #245  
Old 11-16-2017, 05:30 PM
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I hereby state that Banquet Bear molested me fifteen years ago.*

I didn't tell anyone at the time but so what? That's the norm.

I am willing to bet Banquet Bear disputes this but then all molesters do.

Banquet Bear should resign from whatever job he's at. I would have come forward sooner but I was too afraid to. Now I feel emboldened and safe to let the world know.

*That statement is 100% not true. I made it up to make a point.

Apparently though Banquet Bear thinks my accusation should be all that is needed.
...no: your accusation is not all that is needed. We aren't discussing the "accusation". We are talking credibility. We can assess the credibility of your accusation quite easily. I'm pretty confident that 15 years ago we were on different continents. We have your admission that your statement is "100% not true." We can dismiss your accusation as not credible on the basis of those two things alone.

Your insinuation was that because "She admitted there were no witnesses and admitted she did not tell anyone about it (except perhaps some nameless friends but no one in a position of authority)" that her claim was not "credible." But this is the case with almost every single accusation of historical sexual harassment or abuse. Not telling somebody is not an indicator of credibility. Not telling somebody is not the exception. Its the norm: and you can't use something that is perfectly normal as evidence that a persons story is not credible. You have to look to other things.

Quote:
Yes I am sure that picture does not show groping.
Pictures lie. I know this more than most. I'm a professional photographer.

I am not as convinced as you. And pictures will only tell you what happened in 1/160th of a second: not what happened before, nor what happened after. The mere existence of this picture is bad. It shows an immature act performed by an immature person who should have fucking known better.

Quote:
Tweeden cannot say whether she was groped either since she was asleep. Unless someone on the plane testifies that Franken went on to feel Tweeden up there is no evidence she was groped.
These two sentences are just fucking gross. The "not knowing" if she was groped is part of the trauma and should not be dismissed.

Quote:
This is important because the photo is merely tasteless. Groping her is sexual assault and a crime. Bit of a difference there.
Phew! He was only millimeters away from committing sexual assault and a crime. You must be so relieved!

Quote:
It is relevant in ascertaining how contrite you think Franken is and whether the apology is an admission he committed a crime.
Nah.

Quote:
Of course it was fair to ask why Moore's accusers came forward. Certainly the first one or two. There is always a question implicit in these accusations of far distant past events of why the accuser waited so long.
You just have to google "why they didn't come forward" to come up with hundreds of articles about why accusers "wait for so long." Listen to their stories. It isn't fair to use "timing" as a reason to doubt an accusation. People don't come forward for many very valid reasons and it isn't fair to hold that against them.

Quote:
And as I noted while Moore and Weinstein and Spacey wield sufficient power to be a credible threat to a would-be accuser I am not seeing where Tweeden had reason to fear reprisal of any sort from Franken.
It doesn't work like that. It really fucking doesn't. Spice Weasel asked you "Do you understand how sexual trauma works, at all?" And it is apparent that the answer to that question is "no you don't." I don't feel that its my place to explain this to you. But I really hope that somebody does.

Quote:
And as for using Tweeden's name I have done so repeatedly in this thread. Feel free to check.
I've already "checked." My comment stands.
  #246  
Old 11-16-2017, 05:33 PM
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The thing I see that's different with Franklin versus the other men (and it's a minor difference) is that he's making a joke that is sexual in nature as opposed to being sexual. I also feel that way about the kiss. He was trying to be funny in a crude way. I would bet that if he was rehearsing with another comedian, they would each be trying to take it over the line in a funny way (maybe she'd grab his butt when they kissed). I feel that sort of line crossing is seen as okay between comedians.
For fucks sake. So now forcing an actual, 'put part of my body inside of yours' encounter doesn't count as sexual if you think it's funny? What orifices can I penetrate and with what body parts in the name of 'comedy' that won't then count as sexual by your rules? How much sexual activity can I stage an unconscious body before it becomes sexual?
  #247  
Old 11-16-2017, 05:34 PM
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For fucks sake. So now forcing an actual, 'put part of my body inside of yours' encounter doesn't count as sexual if you think it's funny? What orifices can I penetrate and with what body parts in the name of 'comedy' that won't then count as sexual by your rules? How much sexual activity can I stage an unconscious body before it becomes sexual?
I think some posters here would have to know the party affiliation of both individuals before giving you a firm answer to those questions.
  #248  
Old 11-16-2017, 05:35 PM
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Drunk college students engage in all kinds of awful behavior, I can't believe someone would argue 'drunk college students do this, so clearly it's OK' in general. But especially when we're talking about not just a grown man, but a US Senator - I really don't think "Only does stuff as bad as drunk college students do" is a good standard of behavior.
Whoa! That's at least the second time that you've accused me of saying something I did not say.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 11-16-2017 at 05:36 PM.
  #249  
Old 11-16-2017, 05:39 PM
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I think some posters here would have to know the party affiliation of both individuals before giving you a firm answer to those questions.
You know, if I were you, I wouldn't be quite so chuffed that a relatively small sample of "the other guys" were coming off almost as badly as the average member of my team. But I'm not you.
  #250  
Old 11-16-2017, 05:39 PM
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In the primaries they did everything to stop him. But the voters spoke about that.
Yes, and then they rallied around him.

Quote:
Endorsing Hillary was not an option. Whatever you think of sexual harassment, it's ridiculous to support someone you disagree with on serious policy issues over personal failings.
Campaigning and supporting Trump shouldn't have been an option, and yet tons of Republicans (and the party apparatus) did that. They could have thrown everything towards Evan McMullin, or someone else.

Quote:
The issues that face this country are substantive. The impact of the character of the president is largely symbolic. Symbolic counts for something, but not nearly as much as substance.
That doesn't really provide any justification for supporting Trump, IMO. But that's a separate discussion.
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