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  #251  
Old 11-16-2017, 05:42 PM
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They could have thrown everything towards Evan McMullin, or someone else.
McMullin was only on the ballot in a few states.
  #252  
Old 11-16-2017, 05:43 PM
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I'm honestly stunned and disappointed from several posters on the left. I was sure I would come in here and see that there was consistency and calls for Franken to step down. It seems, though, that when these women accuse men on the left of the political spectrum, they are lying whores out for money.

I think I am consistent in this. There is no corroboration for the kissing story and that should not be enough to force Franken from office. And the picture, while technically a battery, should give us all pause before picking up the pitchforks. Are we setting a standard that anything that a person has ever done in the last 10, 20, 40 years, even if once, even if done while drunk, even if he immediately regretted it and it was totally out of character should be a disqualifier from political office? Even if he erroneously thought that she would be "cool" with his "joke"?

What are we going to do when the best people among us decide not to run for office just on the fear of something like this coming out?

I am not saying it is right. I am saying that this isn't the worst thing that could ever happen to a woman such that the man should be banished from society.
  #253  
Old 11-16-2017, 05:45 PM
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And starting to look more like a republican hit job:

Quote:
Former Trump campaign adviser Roger Stone appeared to know there were sexual misconduct allegations involving Sen. Al Franken (D-Minn.) hours before they became public.

Stone has been banned from Twitter, but at 1 a.m. on Thursday morning an account connected to him tweeted a quote from the Republican political operative.

"Roger Stone says it's Al Franken's 'time in the barrel'. Franken next in long list of Democrats to be accused of 'grabby' behavior," read the tweet from Enter the Stone Zone.

SOURCE: http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefi...ion-was-coming
  #254  
Old 11-16-2017, 05:45 PM
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McMullin was only on the ballot in a few states.
So what? They had time to get him on the ballots once it was clear Trump was going to be the nominee. The party chose to embrace Trump and work with him and try to get him elected. Yes, it would have been a remarkable decision to reject Trump, but they still could have made it (and some small number did). But most of them didn't, and they embraced Trump fully, and still are.

As a factual statement, the Republican party apparatus and "establishment" tried to prevent Trump from becoming the nominee, but once he was the presumptive nominee, embraced him and worked with him and tried to get him elected. If the Democrats boot Franken due to a new "no abusers/harassers/gropers" policy going forward, then that's a morally superior stance to the Republican stance re: Trump, IMO.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 11-16-2017 at 05:48 PM.
  #255  
Old 11-16-2017, 05:47 PM
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And starting to look more like a republican hit job:
No it's not. She had a picture, and she was there, and he admitted to most of it (and just said he remembered the rehearsal differently -- but didn't say there was no rehearsal, or contradict her account), and apologized, and she accepted the apology. There's no evidence she did not present her account honestly, and implying otherwise due to nothing more than her political associations (which are irrelevant to her accusations) is, frankly, disgusting.
  #256  
Old 11-16-2017, 05:53 PM
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Pictures lie. I know this more than most. I'm a professional photographer.

I am not as convinced as you. And pictures will only tell you what happened in 1/160th of a second: not what happened before, nor what happened after. The mere existence of this picture is bad. It shows an immature act performed by an immature person who should have fucking known better.
But to be clear, Tweeden isn't claiming that she was groped (she was asleep at the time after all). She's saying that the picture shows she was groped. But it doesn't to my eyes. It looks to me like a staged photo joke by a photographer and a comedian acting like assholes.

She also said that she wanted a damn apology. Which she deserved in my view and which she received twice in the same day. She's happy with the apology (both) and isn't calling for pitchforks. Just a little accountability.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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I could put this in a different post, but I won't waste the electrons. No relation to BB's comments.

Kevin Drum calls for proportionality: http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-dru...aster-in-2006/
Not all offenses are the same. Shoplifting is not as bad as grand theft. Assault is not as bad as murder. Saying this doesn’t imply approval of either shoplifting or assault; it’s merely a statement of uncontroversial fact. Likewise, not all sexual abuse is equal. Harvey Weinstein’s rap sheet includes dozens of accusations of groping, forced massages, and possibly rape. Louis C.K. masturbated in front of actresses multiple times. Roy Moore routinely chased after high school girls when he was in his 30s and appears to have aggressively assaulted at least two of them.

By contrast, Franken thought he was joking around but went farther than he should have. Once.¹ It’s no whitewash to say that this is a considerably lesser offense. But if the only response we have to any kind of sexual abuse is to insist on resignation from office and expulsion from public life—mostly to protect our own reputations—we are not acting with any sense of proportionality. We need to start. Listen to Leeann Tweeden, folks.

¹There’s allegedly a second accusation coming out later today, something that Roger Stone tweeted about last night. It is, for now, suspicious in the extreme and appears likely to be a conservative ratfuck. We’ll see.
  #257  
Old 11-16-2017, 05:56 PM
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The allegation is that he kissed her against her will...
Correct me if I'm wrong but the allegation is that, while rehearsing a skit in which they were supposed to be kissing, he got aggressive with the kiss and stuck his tongue down her throat. I'm willing to say that maybe they both remember things a bit differently from that day as far as how aggressive the kiss was. But it was part of the skit they were rehearsing. She says she was reluctant to do the rehearsal, but she did agree to do it. She could have said: "OK, I'll rehearse the skit, but no kissing! Got that?" If he kissed her after that, then yeah, that's a kiss against her will.

The groping thing looked like a pretend grope. But she was sleeping and that was an asshole thing for one adult to do to another, especially if pics were taken. But I'm leaning towards asshole rather than sexual groper.

Last edited by John Mace; 11-16-2017 at 05:58 PM.
  #258  
Old 11-16-2017, 06:02 PM
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Even if it's a "hit job" to the maximum extent possible, then what? It's Photoshopped, and Franken's way of responding to things that are completely made up out of whole cloth is to say well, I don't quite remember it that way, but it's still important that these stories be told?

He behaved in a gross and unacceptable way, at the very least. He seems to appreciate that he should know better. Attacking the messenger at this point is exactly the kind of political hairsplitting and rationalizing that LIKE 24 HOURS AGO everyone on the left seemed to know was toxic and reprehensible. If you had asked your average progressive yesterday, say, what would you do if out of the blue some very respected, very well liked figure on the left was accused of sexual harassment or assault, they would all have said well shit, I can tell you what I wouldn't do! I wouldn't act like these Republicans, making excuses and attacking the victim, and grasping at straws to try to avoid coming down against my man! This one is a free fucking square in the game of "what's right."

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Originally Posted by John Mace
Correct me if I'm wrong but the allegation is that, while rehearsing a skit in which they were supposed to be kissing, he got aggressive with the kiss and stuck his tongue down her throat. I'm willing to say that maybe they both remember things a bit differently from that day as far as how aggressive the kiss was. But it was part of the skit they were rehearsing. She says she was reluctant to do the rehearsal, but she did agree to do it. She could have said: "OK, I'll rehearse the skit, but no kissing! OK?"
She said that he kissed her without her consent, so if what she said is important to you, there it is. But yes, the allegation is that he wrote a kiss in, then said they needed to rehearse it, and she didn't think they needed to rehearse it, but tried to laugh it off, and then he grabbed her and shoved his tongue in her mouth. She could have done lots of things. What I've just described is what he actually did, which seems the important part of the story. I don't know what happened, you don't know what happened, lots of things could have happened. But, as was just the case with all the Roy Moore shit, and all the other shit, there's a big difference between saying well, hard to say exactly where to come down on some of this, let's withhold absolute judgment, and trying to pick apart the story and attack her motivations (generally, not you in particular).

Last edited by Jimmy Chitwood; 11-16-2017 at 06:05 PM.
  #259  
Old 11-16-2017, 06:05 PM
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I'm honestly stunned and disappointed from several posters on the left. I was sure I would come in here and see that there was consistency and calls for Franken to step down. It seems, though, that when these women accuse men on the left of the political spectrum, they are lying whores out for money.
Um. Cite?
  #260  
Old 11-16-2017, 06:09 PM
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She said that he kissed her without her consent, so if what she said is important to you, there it is. But yes, the allegation is that he wrote a kiss in, then said they needed to rehearse it, and she didn't think they needed to rehearse it, but tried to laugh it off, and then he grabbed her and shoved his tongue in her mouth. She could have done lots of things. What I've just described is what he actually did, which seems the important part of the story.
From the article linked to in the OP:

Quote:
On the day of the show Franken and I were alone backstage going over our lines one last time. He said to me, “We need to rehearse the kiss.” I laughed and ignored him. Then he said it again. I said something like, ‘Relax Al, this isn’t SNL…we don’t need to rehearse the kiss.’

He continued to insist, and I was beginning to get uncomfortable.

He repeated that actors really need to rehearse everything and that we must practice the kiss. I said ‘OK’ so he would stop badgering me.
She was uncomfortable, didn't want to do it, but she said OK. The details of her story, as told by her, don't match the analysis of "without my consent".

Last edited by John Mace; 11-16-2017 at 06:10 PM.
  #261  
Old 11-16-2017, 06:09 PM
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If the Democrats boot Franken due to a new "no abusers/harassers/gropers" policy going forward, then that's a morally superior stance to the Republican stance re: Trump, IMO.
As noted earlier, if the Democrats boot Franken it's a little-to-no cost decision, since he's a senator rather than president and because he would be replaced by another Democrat. It's not remotely comparable to losing the presidency to the other party over personal failings. The comparison is completely invalid.

ETA: FTR, the reaction of liberals in this thread has been somewhat less partisan than I would have expected.

Last edited by Fotheringay-Phipps; 11-16-2017 at 06:11 PM.
  #262  
Old 11-16-2017, 06:11 PM
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As noted earlier, if the Democrats boot Franken it's a little-to-no cost decision, since he's a senator rather than president and because he would be replaced by another Democrat. It's not remotely comparable to losing the presidency to the other party over personal failings. The comparison is completely invalid.
It's a start. At the very least the Democrats could say they have absolutely zero tolerance for abuse/harassment/violation-of-consent going forward, and actually mean it. Until the Republicans utterly reject Trump, they can't/won't.

Quote:
ETA: FTR, the reaction of liberals in this thread has been somewhat less partisan than I would have expected.
Do you mean that you're surprised that so many liberals have denounced Franken and said he should resign? Or you're surprised that I'm talking about the political concerns on top of the moral/ethical concerns?

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 11-16-2017 at 06:12 PM.
  #263  
Old 11-16-2017, 06:12 PM
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Hard to rank some of thees guys, but of your top 4, Cosby is the only one who drugged his victims, no?
Is that supposed to make it worse? Harvey raped his victims just as much as Cosby did, and they had to be awake through it.
  #264  
Old 11-16-2017, 06:12 PM
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It's disturbing to me that some people apparently regard Ms. Tweeden as an infant.

She lacks the ability to weigh Franken's apology and decide for herself if it's sufficient, it seems. Franken's fate must be decided by The People.

It should be obvious I am not a fan of Franken's politics, but this is insane. He did something that was jerkish, and he now recognizes that jerkishness and has apologized. In detail. Not "I'm sorry if anyone was offended," but a for realsies apology.
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  #265  
Old 11-16-2017, 06:14 PM
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She was uncomfortable, didn't want to do it, but she said OK. The details of her story, as told by her, don't match the analysis of "without my consent".
There's some question as to whether badgering people until they agree to something constitutes "consent".

On a related note, see Dave Chappelle on "grab em by the pussy": https://mic.com/articles/158667/dave...set#.CcKHNQhtr
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
It's a start. At the very least the Democrats could say they have absolutely zero tolerance for abuse/harassment/violation-of-consent going forward, and actually mean it.
No, it won't show that. It might show that if they were willing to pay a serious price for this zero tolerance policy - the same price you expect the Republicans to have paid. But having zero tolerance at no cost to yourself is not truly zero tolerance, and doesn't show anything over someone who is in a very different situation.
Quote:
Do you mean that you're surprised that so many liberals have denounced Franken and said he should resign? Or you're surprised that I'm talking about the political concerns on top of the moral/ethical concerns?
The first.

Last edited by Fotheringay-Phipps; 11-16-2017 at 06:16 PM.
  #266  
Old 11-16-2017, 06:14 PM
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It's disturbing to me that some people apparently regard Ms. Tweeden as an infant.

She lacks the ability to weigh Franken's apology and decide for herself if it's sufficient, it seems. Franken's fate must be decided by The People.

It should be obvious I am not a fan of Franken's politics, but this is insane. He did something that was jerkish, and he now recognizes that jerkishness and has apologized. In detail. Not "I'm sorry if anyone was offended," but a for realsies apology.
I think her acceptance of the apology is an important factor to consider, but I don't think it need be determinative. Does it? If so, why?
  #267  
Old 11-16-2017, 06:19 PM
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She was uncomfortable, didn't want to do it, but she said OK. The details of her story, as told by her, don't match the analysis of "without my consent".
This is the kind of parsing and glossing I'm talking about. If part of her story, and her perspective, matters to you, why are we doing "analysis" to falsify the thesis of the entire story? Are you saying she's mistaken when she says it was without her consent?

Editing to add: in case this is where the confusion is coming from, I'm referring to the title of the piece: "Senator Al Franken Kissed and Groped Me Without My Consent..."

Last edited by Jimmy Chitwood; 11-16-2017 at 06:20 PM.
  #268  
Old 11-16-2017, 06:19 PM
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There's some question as to whether badgering people until they agree to something constitutes "consent".
I'm not going to argue the general case, as I suppose there are some instances where that might be true. But not this one. She knew she was doing a scene with him where they kiss. There was going to be a kiss as soon as she agreed to do the scene. Rehearsing scenes is not some crazy, unheard of behavior. They were not in some dark alley. No, she had agency to refuse, but she said "OK".

Last edited by John Mace; 11-16-2017 at 06:19 PM.
  #269  
Old 11-16-2017, 06:22 PM
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Consent is, as always, the key word.

Some of those pix clearly were taken with the gleeful cooperation of the persons in the pic. Many of them weren't.
So in your opinion, the key here is that Miss Tweeden did not consent to having the pictures taken? Consent is "always" to be gained before taking someone's picture, especially one that may cast them in a bad light or make them the unwitting focus of negative attention, is that what your saying?
  #270  
Old 11-16-2017, 06:25 PM
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This is the kind of parsing and glossing I'm talking about. If part of her story, and her perspective, matters to you, why are we doing "analysis" to falsify the thesis of the entire story? Are you saying she's mistaken when she says it was without her consent?

Editing to add: in case this is where the confusion is coming from, I'm referring to the title of the piece: "Senator Al Franken Kissed and Groped Me Without My Consent..."
She may have thought she hadn't given consent, but from her story Franken reasonably thought he had consent. I'm not going to convict Franken on what she thought she was telling him when her plain words were "OK".

If this story were told in court, would you say Franken was guilty of kissing her without her consent?

Last edited by John Mace; 11-16-2017 at 06:25 PM.
  #271  
Old 11-16-2017, 06:25 PM
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McMullin was only on the ballot in a few states.
11 states, per footnote #35.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evan_McMullin
  #272  
Old 11-16-2017, 06:26 PM
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She said that he kissed her without her consent, so if what she said is important to you, there it is. But yes, the allegation is that he wrote a kiss in, then said they needed to rehearse it, and she didn't think they needed to rehearse it, but tried to laugh it off, and then he grabbed her and shoved his tongue in her mouth. She could have done lots of things. What I've just described is what he actually did, which seems the important part of the story. I don't know what happened, you don't know what happened, lots of things could have happened. But, as was just the case with all the Roy Moore shit, and all the other shit, there's a big difference between saying well, hard to say exactly where to come down on some of this, let's withhold absolute judgment, and trying to pick apart the story and attack her motivations (generally, not you in particular).
The bolded part is not an accurate rendition of Miss Tweed's story nor an accurate description of the rendition. I also find it interesting that you declare that you described "what he actually did" and immediately follow it up with "I don't know what happened, you don't know what happened".

Which is it? Did you describe what Mr. Franken did? If you did, how did you describe what he did without knowing what happened?
  #273  
Old 11-16-2017, 06:29 PM
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We are presented with the claim: He kissed me without my consent.

We are given, by her as evidence, an exchange between the two in which she gave consent. The claim is not substantiated. Now, maybe the reporter was sloppy. Maybe something got edited out. But as it is reported there, I think it's unfair to say that Franken did not reasonably think he had consent, regardless of what might have been going through her mind at the time.

Last edited by John Mace; 11-16-2017 at 06:30 PM.
  #274  
Old 11-16-2017, 06:32 PM
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She may have thought she hadn't given consent, but from her story Franken reasonably thought he had consent. I'm not going to convict Franken on what she thought she was telling him when her plain words were "OK".

If this story were told in court, would you say Franken was guilty of kissing her without her consent?
No. Then again, I'm not in court, right? That question hasn't come up. If somebody has asked you to convict Al Franken, rest assured I'm against that.

What I would do, non-hypothetically, is decide not to attack her motivations or pick away at her story to advance a political agenda, when her story is quite credible and demonstrates at the very least that Franken acted in a disgusting way and should apologize, which he did. Choosing not to attack the victim is an option, even if I'm not convinced beyond a reasonable doubt.
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Old 11-16-2017, 06:32 PM
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A stage kiss doesn't involve tongue, or grabbing the head, etc. She didn't consent to a tongue in her mouth, and she obviously didn't consent to her body being used (whether physically touched or not) as an object of sexual derision in the photograph.

Neither of these things are the end of the world. But they are violations of consent, and the Democratic party should have zero tolerance for violation of consent, IMO.
  #276  
Old 11-16-2017, 06:34 PM
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Until 15 minutes ago, pretty much my favorite Senator.

What a pathetic apology. Fuck him. Sure, there's a non-zero chance this is all manufactured, but there's also a non-zero chance Franken is a lizard person. Fuck all harassers and assaulters; every last one of them. If he's a tenth of the person I thought he was 15 minutes ago, he'll give a much better apology and then resign.
Hypothetically, since you've already alluded to a non-zero chance that this is all manufactured, what you expect to hear from a man you think highly of when he is wrongfully accused of this kind of behavior? If he's a tenth of the person you thought AND he's innocent of the accusation, what should he do?

This is not saying he is innocent or that she is lying (although I don't think the picture is evidence of groping), but I'm curious as to what a reasonable response from an innocent man looks like to those decrying the 'non-apologies.'

Seems despite an absence of evidence of wrong-doing or even an investigation or trial to determine guilt, we are all expected to assume the worst for the sole reason that if it's true, it is truly objectionable. And anyone accused should lose their jobs. Period.

This is hard stuff. I feel for anyone who is molested, assaulted or made to feel uncomfortable by a person in a position of power, but it seems the power has now shifted and that is also worrisome to me, too.

Last edited by Brown Eyed Girl; 11-16-2017 at 06:34 PM.
  #277  
Old 11-16-2017, 06:34 PM
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No, it won't show that. It might show that if they were willing to pay a serious price for this zero tolerance policy - the same price you expect the Republicans to have paid. But having zero tolerance at no cost to yourself is not truly zero tolerance, and doesn't show anything over someone who is in a very different situation.
So you think there's no difference between booting a violator-of-consent and not booting a violator-of-consent? I think there's a difference, and a difference in how that looks, especially in the long term. I think this is a big moment either way, and whether Franken stays or goes will be referenced as a major event years from now.
  #278  
Old 11-16-2017, 06:36 PM
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I think her acceptance of the apology is an important factor to consider, but I don't think it need be determinative. Does it? If so, why?
I don't think it's determinative either. But I'd weigh it a lot more than remarks by amateur pundits and professional poseurs who opine within 24 hours of the story breaking.

I'd weigh it less than a report by an ethics committee, assuming the report isn't an obvious whitewash. Or a detailed treatment by a fair observer, made after careful investigation. Which doesn't happen in 24 hours.

In Fall 2017, I think this asshole behavior should be investigated. It would be a helpful teaching moment. But a sense of proportion is also for the best.


I do have bias. I'd prefer not to lose Franken, as he's the wonkiest member of Congress since Rush Holt.
  #279  
Old 11-16-2017, 06:37 PM
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The bolded part is not an accurate rendition of Miss Tweed's story nor an accurate description of the rendition. I also find it interesting that you declare that you described "what he actually did" and immediately follow it up with "I don't know what happened, you don't know what happened".

Which is it? Did you describe what Mr. Franken did? If you did, how did you describe what he did without knowing what happened?
Apologies to John, it seems we are in court! And I'm not a juror, I'm on the stand!

What is the point that this sloppy internet cross-examination is in service of, exactly? Do I know what happened? Obviously not, that's why I said that. How did I describe it? I read what she said then paraphrased it.

I'm not sure, other than as a continuation of this Roy Mooresque "asking questions" defense, where this is taking us. What is your point?
  #280  
Old 11-16-2017, 06:40 PM
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No. Then again, I'm not in court, right? That question hasn't come up. If somebody has asked you to convict Al Franken, rest assured I'm against that.
OK. What I'm trying to do, just to be clear, is to note that this could be one of those instances where the two people involved had a different sense of what happened. And from her telling of the story, I believe it's reasonable for him to think he had her consent. It does sound like Frankel behaved, at best, in a boorish manner. I don't think he should have to resign for that action.

Quote:
What I would do, non-hypothetically, is decide not to attack her motivations or pick away at her story to advance a political agenda, when her story is quite credible and demonstrates at the very least that Franken acted in a disgusting way and should apologize, which he did. Choosing not to attack the victim is an option, even if I'm not convinced beyond a reasonable doubt.
I'm not attacking the victim.

But I'll let you have the last word on this exchange if you wish, before I find myself in a re-education camp with elucidator.

Last edited by John Mace; 11-16-2017 at 06:44 PM.
  #281  
Old 11-16-2017, 06:43 PM
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What I would do, non-hypothetically, is decide not to attack her motivations or pick away at her story to advance a political agenda, when her story is quite credible and demonstrates at the very least that Franken acted in a disgusting way and should apologize, which he did.
Out of curiosity, what makes her story more credible than his? Is the photograph credible evidence of the story about the kiss? Franken claims to remember the skit differently. Is it impossible to believe that the photograph is an example of a quite objectionable joke, but not actual physical contact or threat?
  #282  
Old 11-16-2017, 06:43 PM
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... I do have bias. I'd prefer not to lose Franken, as he's the wonkiest member of Congress since Rush Holt.
How did Franken get this reputation with you? I've had a hard time envisioning him as anything but a clown (admittedly, I haven't tried very hard), but what has made him "the wonkiest member of Congress since Rush Holt" in your eyes?
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Old 11-16-2017, 06:50 PM
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How did Franken get this reputation with you? I've had a hard time envisioning him as anything but a clown (admittedly, I haven't tried very hard), but what has made him "the wonkiest member of Congress since Rush Holt" in your eyes?
The radio show he hosted in Minnesota.

Source: Paul Krugman:
Al Franken’s dirty secret is that … he’s a big policy wonk.

I used to go on Franken’s radio show, all ready to be jocular — and what he wanted to talk about was the arithmetic of Social Security, or the structure of Medicare Part D.

In fact, the only elected official I know who’s wonkier than Al Franken is Rush Holt, my congressman — and he used to be the assistant director of Princeton’s plasma physics lab. (The campaign’s bumper stickers read, “My Congressman IS a rocket scientist.”)
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Old 11-16-2017, 06:53 PM
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Minor note but I'm pretty sure Rush Holt is retired now (from politics at least).
  #285  
Old 11-16-2017, 06:55 PM
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A stage kiss doesn't involve tongue,
Don't be so sure. But that was SNL, and we're talking about Al Franken. Two completely different things.

And just to be clear, I'm not saying he was in the right, but let's not go overboard about what is and what is not involved in a stage kiss.


Quote:
or grabbing the head
You're really reaching here, andy. A great many stage kisses involved "grabbing the head". I'm at a total loss as to why you would say something so nonsensical. Are we now going to chastise some guy because he grabbed a woman's head during a "stage kiss"?

Last edited by John Mace; 11-16-2017 at 06:56 PM.
  #286  
Old 11-16-2017, 06:57 PM
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OK. What I'm trying to do, just to be clear, is to note that this could be one of those instances where the two people involved had a different sense of what happened. And from her telling of the story, I believe it's reasonable for him to think he had her consent. It does sound like Frankel behaved, at best, in a boorish manner. I don't think he should have to resign for that action.

I'm not attacking the victim.

But I'll let you have the last word on this exchange if you wish, before I find myself in a re-education camp with elucidator.
Understood! I apologize for giving you that impression. I'm describing to you my reasoning behind taking others (not you) to task, for attacking the victim. (For the record, I typed this before I saw the "re education camp" bit, which seems pretty shitty to me, but OK).

I think that everything you're saying makes sense. I am not calling for Franken to resign, because I don't know if I think he should or not. What I think is important is the consistent theme that runs across all of these harassment and assault stories, which is that, in my opinion, we should be less concerned about whether he might have thought he had her consent, and more concerned about whether, taking all of the facts in their totality, we think what he did was above the line or not.

As described by the allegations, he manufactured a situation where he wouldn't have a good sense of whether there was consent, because somebody could very reasonably not make a point of saying "just in case you're about to stick your tongue down my throat, I expressly decline the implicit offer your intentions create," even if that is exactly how they feel. I think that if somebody comes out and says:

Quote:
On the day of the show Franken and I were alone backstage going over our lines one last time. He said to me, “We need to rehearse the kiss.” I laughed and ignored him. Then he said it again. I said something like, ‘Relax Al, this isn’t SNL…we don’t need to rehearse the kiss.’

He continued to insist, and I was beginning to get uncomfortable.
We should not look at that and say, well, we can imagine under the circumstances that he might have thought something different was going on. We should look at that and say, OK people, the rule here is after this is you don't kiss them, and certainly you don't put your tongue in their mouth.

And I think where it comes out that somebody may have acted like that, we should all say "yeah, sounds fucked," not "well wait, it's not beyond a reasonable doubt yet, so here are all of the reasons I can think of why this woman might be a liar." I think that's bad for the world. But for sure, I also think it would also be bad for the world if the amount of information we have here was above the quantum of proof that we needed before throwing anybody in jail.
  #287  
Old 11-16-2017, 06:59 PM
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Don't be so sure. But that was SNL, and we're talking about Al Franken. Two completely different things.

And just to be clear, I'm not saying he was in the right, but let's not go overboard about what is and what is not involved in a stage kiss.
Oh come on. Her account: She said he wanted to do a private rehearsal. She felt weird about it, but said yes anyway (which doesn't mean she consents to everything). And he stuck his tongue into her mouth. Not because the skit called for tongue-kissing like your link, but for some other reason. That this was just meant as a normal rehearsal isn't credible to me.

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You're really reaching here, andy. A great many stage kisses involved "grabbing the head". I'm at a total loss as to why you would say something so nonsensical.
Not the way she described it.

But this kind of nitpicking is really disappointing. What she described was not a normal rehearsal, and was a violation of consent. There needs to be zero tolerance for violations of consent, both in political parties and in society at large. Violating consent, even in ways that aren't sexual intercourse, is very wrong and needs to be treated as such.
  #288  
Old 11-16-2017, 06:59 PM
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Out of curiosity, what makes her story more credible than his? Is the photograph credible evidence of the story about the kiss? Franken claims to remember the skit differently. Is it impossible to believe that the photograph is an example of a quite objectionable joke, but not actual physical contact or threat?
He didn't tell a story, so I'm not doing any kind of weighing of one vs. another. I'm taking what I've heard, and deciding what I think is appropriate to say about it.

No, the photograph has so little bearing on whether or not the kiss happened as to be almost zero.

No, it's not impossible to believe. I'm reasonably sure that's what he thought he was doing.
  #289  
Old 11-16-2017, 07:06 PM
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Uggh. This change in society -- absolutely zero tolerance for violating consent, to the point that violators will be looked at like child molesters are now -- is coming. It will arrive. I don't know exactly when, but I strongly believe that we're (finally) headed in that direction, which is absolutely the morally correct direction.

But I'm disgusted at the resistance to this progress from so many on all sides.

Gross. Grody, disgusting, blechhhh.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 11-16-2017 at 07:07 PM.
  #290  
Old 11-16-2017, 07:10 PM
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It's disturbing to me that some people apparently regard Ms. Tweeden as an infant.

She lacks the ability to weigh Franken's apology and decide for herself if it's sufficient, it seems. Franken's fate must be decided by The People.
Her acceptance of his apology is determinative within their relationship.

Regarding his political future, the rest of us get to make up our own minds on how we feel, what we believe the Democratic Party should ask of him, and what he should do.

She isn't an infant, but neither are we. She doesn't get to decide for all of us, just for herself.
  #291  
Old 11-16-2017, 07:12 PM
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Uggh. This change in society -- absolutely zero tolerance for violating consent, to the point that violators will be looked at like child molesters are now -- is coming. It will arrive. I don't know exactly when, but I strongly believe that we're (finally) headed in that direction, which is absolutely the morally correct direction.

But I'm disgusted at the resistance to this progress from so many on all sides.

Gross. Grody, disgusting, blechhhh.
That’s a dangerous viewpoint. There are many shades of gray in behavior.
  #292  
Old 11-16-2017, 07:13 PM
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Minor note but I'm pretty sure Rush Holt is retired now (from politics at least).
Yes, he now leads the American Association for the Advancement of Science, which publishes Science, that field's preeminent journal.
----------------------------------
----------------------------------

Separately, my overarching point is not to rush to judgment within 72 hours of a story breaking. I can imagine unflattering scenarios for Tweeden and reprehensible scenarios for Franken given the facts at hand (neither probable IMHO). Which is part of the reason why I advocate turning the situation over to the committee. Furthermore methinks such public airings are a relatively good, fair, and efficacious way to raise the bar, given an imperfect world.
  #293  
Old 11-16-2017, 07:14 PM
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Look closely at the picture. His open fingers cast shadows because....they are at a distance from her actual person.

If the fingers rested on her, they would not cast a visible shadow. Which leads to Franken pantomiming something outrageous, that he would not do!....while taking care that he doesn't!

I submit that "grope" must involve direct and physical contact. Wild-ass shit, I know, but try the idea out for a minute.....
  #294  
Old 11-16-2017, 07:25 PM
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It's certainly possible that he's not touching her in the picture. It's also true that if he's not touching her, then that's better than if he were touching her. Consensus on those points.

Let's just assume that he's not touching her. If the same picture were shown to you, and it was Eric Trump doing it, and you heard that the same woman also told the same story about the kiss, where would you come down on that one? You'd still want to know why she was so afraid of a weenie like that that she couldn't say no, would you; still want to point out his lack of formal authority, and still want to point out the good service he was doing for our boys over there?
  #295  
Old 11-16-2017, 07:28 PM
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It's certainly possible that he's not touching her in the picture. It's also true that if he's not touching her, then that's better than if he were touching her. Consensus on those points.

Let's just assume that he's not touching her. If the same picture were shown to you, and it was Eric Trump doing it, and you heard that the same woman also told the same story about the kiss, where would you come down on that one? You'd still want to know why she was so afraid of a weenie like that that she couldn't say no, would you; still want to point out his lack of formal authority, and still want to point out the good service he was doing for our boys over there?
I'd think, based on the preponderance of the evidence, that Eric was an asshole overgrown fratboy.

If a conservative comedian did it, I'd cut him a little slack since jokes do misfire now and then.

If a former comedian/current congressman did it, I'd call for an ethics investigation since I'd like to raise the bar on asshole behavior, including the stuff linked to by Snowboarder Bo.

If a bunch of women came forward and said something like, "Yeah, this jerk did stuff like this all the time", I'd check my garage for pitchforks. (Inventory control, you know.)

Last edited by Measure for Measure; 11-16-2017 at 07:30 PM.
  #296  
Old 11-16-2017, 07:29 PM
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A stage kiss doesn't involve tongue, or grabbing the head, etc. She didn't consent to a tongue in her mouth, and she obviously didn't consent to her body being used (whether physically touched or not) as an object of sexual derision in the photograph.
Exactly. I've never acted in as much as a junior high school play, but even I know the difference between a stage kiss and one involving tongue. I'm sure Al Franken did too, and that's plainly what consent was given for.
Quote:
Neither of these things are the end of the world. But they are violations of consent, and the Democratic party should have zero tolerance for violation of consent, IMO.
I'm right with you there.
  #297  
Old 11-16-2017, 07:30 PM
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That’s a dangerous viewpoint. There are many shades of gray in behavior.
Okay, I'm fine with some nuance -- what Franken did isn't as bad as what Trump or Moore are accused of doing. But we still should have zero tolerance for it, and it should be anathema, to the point that even Franken's level of consent-violation should be disqualifying for high office.
  #298  
Old 11-16-2017, 07:30 PM
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I don't like Franken or his politics but it's not as if he raped somebody or seriously sexually assaulted them. The kiss was wrong, the gag not funny, but if no other worse accusations come to light this should be dismissed and should have no impact at all on his political career. We need a little perspective in these things.
In my book a forced kiss (if the allegation is true) is worse than a groping and worse than what Louis CK did-masturbating in front of women with their consent but even if you believe Louis CK did something without consent, he did not touch the women. A tongue kiss exchanges fluids and can transmit disease.
  #299  
Old 11-16-2017, 07:34 PM
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Look closely at the picture. His open fingers cast shadows because....they are at a distance from her actual person.

If the fingers rested on her, they would not cast a visible shadow. Which leads to Franken pantomiming something outrageous, that he would not do!....while taking care that he doesn't!

I submit that "grope" must involve direct and physical contact. Wild-ass shit, I know, but try the idea out for a minute.....
The grope allegation is from the kiss, not the picture. It seems like you are being deliberately obtuse. Do you really not see a problem with using a sleeping woman as an unknowing prop for a sex joke picture?
  #300  
Old 11-16-2017, 07:38 PM
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and she obviously didn't consent to her body being used (whether physically touched or not) as an object of sexual derision in the photograph.

Neither of these things are the end of the world. But they are violations of consent, and the Democratic party should have zero tolerance for violation of consent, IMO.
So, like RTFirefly, you believe that before taking someone's picture, consent should be gained? Especially, I presume, if that picture is going to portray them negatively or as the butt of a joke?
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