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  #101  
Old 06-17-2019, 11:03 PM
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I don't think it indicates a lack of care for marginalized people. I wont support someone who's going to possibly hurt those people, such as Biden by say reducing aid, or for proposing things against their interest.
Man, I hope you didn't think that was going to make anyone more inclined to vote for Sanders.
  #102  
Old 06-17-2019, 11:14 PM
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He is a sexist who left his child and his child's mother on welfare because he couldn't be bothered to hold a real job, preferring to pursue his "journalism" Women journalist from New Hampshire HATE covering him - and many refuse to - because of his sexist behavior. During the last campaign season, pay inequity between male and female staffers was extreme.

He's a nutjob who published an opinion piece the the reason there is cancer is that teenage girls don't put out enough. Granted, long ago, but anyone who ever puts pen to paper to record that one of the problems with society is that underage girls don't have enough casual sex has disqualified themselves from office.

He's sponsored one substantive piece of legislation while in office.
That's some pretty bold claims about Bernie being a sexist. But let's assume everything you said is true, does that in anyway shape or form take away from the bills hes proposed? Such as M4A or SS expansion, or making stock buy backs illegal? OR what about the proposals he's made, such as legalizing drugs, raising minimum wage, free college tuition?

Attacking Bernie isn't going to get you very far, just like running on attacking Trump didn't get hillary very far.

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And what makes ANYONE think Bernie would not have been creamed in 2016? That socialist thing alone would've lost more votes than it gained. Barack, get out of your social bubble and talk to people, liberal, modeerate, and conservative, and LISTEN. Plus learn some history and work on a campaign or two. Get away from true believers like yourself.
I grew up in a conservative household and have voted for more Republicans than I have democrats (2-1). I've talked to a lot of people of different ideologies, I spend most of my time talking to people in fact. I hold libertarian positions, conservative positions, liberal positions, and progressive positions. I've also been offered to help work on the Trump campaign if that floats your boat. How I got into that position is irrelevant to this topic but if you want to address me personally, you might want to find out who I am before making assumptions about me.

I rarely ever talk to people who agree with me on most things. In fact, most of the "leftists" I do talk to I disagree with almost as much as I disagree with right wingers. So if we're talking about me personally, well theres a lot you don't know if you think I'm in a bubble where I've invested my self into a sanders cult of personality. I think Bernie isn't aggressive enough, I think he tries to take the high road too much. I think he should have never endorsed clinton, and I think he should still legalize all drugs. I also think claiming democratic socialism was a stupid move that triggered the establishment into shitting on him. There are issues I think he should have went with the grain, and issues I think he should have went against the grain. He's by no means a perfect candidate, and if theres legit criticisms about his policies or positions I listen. Such as the crime bill for example, he voted for it as a compromise for the womens violence act or whatever was included, I don't think he should have. I disagree with bernie on that.


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Originally Posted by Kent Clark View Post
Ah yes, Bernie had the election stolen from him. Just like Donald Trump was claiming the election was stolen from him before he confused himself and won. Then, because he just KNEW someone was stealing something, he insisted the popular vote was stolen.

And what happens when YOU force something down MY throat? I'll vote for Bernie if it comes down to him vs. Trump. If you won't do the same for Biden et al, I'll see you in the Pit.
You will vote for Bernie Sanders and you will like it.

Last edited by Barack Obama; 06-17-2019 at 11:15 PM.
  #103  
Old 06-17-2019, 11:20 PM
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Man, I hope you didn't think that was going to make anyone more inclined to vote for Sanders.
No not at all my intention. I never try to debate dopers unless I'm triggered into it. I only come here to be informed, this is one of the few topics where I feel the need to respond to people and put in my own opinion. 99.999999% of the time I come here to read other peoples post and just listen to what people have to say. I made this topic out of spite for the backlash I often find on here towards sanders, and the centrist bias dopers clearly have. I am extremely against you guys trying to find a middle ground on every issue. (I'm over generalizing here based on my experience)

Also was hoping somebody would pull up one of his proposals and be like, well we could do A B or C differently and it would be more effective, or something along those lines if you understand. But this topic kinda spiraled into a debate about sanders as a candidate, which i sorta expected, but was hoping it wouldn't completely turn into. But as usual, nobody wants to argue against sanders policies or proposals, they're too populist. Instead they argue against the man himself, too old, too white, too heterosexual, too male.

Last edited by Barack Obama; 06-17-2019 at 11:22 PM.
  #104  
Old 06-17-2019, 11:26 PM
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Such as M4A or SS expansion, or making stock buy backs illegal?
Why on Earth should stock buy backs be illegal?
  #105  
Old 06-18-2019, 12:02 AM
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Also was hoping somebody would pull up one of his proposals and be like, well we could do A B or C differently and it would be more effective, or something along those lines if you understand.
Why? The question was why we don't support Sanders, not to try to fix Sanders' proposals or debate this with his fans. Unless Bernie Sanders is reading the SDMB, it does me no good to sit around hashing over how to improve his proposals.
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But this topic kinda spiraled into a debate about sanders as a candidate, which i sorta expected, but was hoping it wouldn't completely turn into.
The topic is "Why don't you support Sanders" as a candidate and you were hoping we wouldn't discuss Sanders as a candidate? The first sentence of your OP was Give me reasons why you would not support Sanders as president. And saying "And those things won't count" doesn't actually change anything -- if people don't like him for reasons A, B or C you can either accept that (and try to address it if you're so inclined) or stick your fingers in your ears and ignore it but you're not going to make people not feel that way by saying "Nuh-uh! Doesn't count!"

Last edited by Jophiel; 06-18-2019 at 12:04 AM.
  #106  
Old 06-18-2019, 12:40 AM
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Why? The question was why we don't support Sanders, not to try to fix Sanders' proposals or debate this with his fans. Unless Bernie Sanders is reading the SDMB, it does me no good to sit around hashing over how to improve his proposals.

The topic is "Why don't you support Sanders" as a candidate and you were hoping we wouldn't discuss Sanders as a candidate? The first sentence of your OP was Give me reasons why you would not support Sanders as president. And saying "And those things won't count" doesn't actually change anything -- if people don't like him for reasons A, B or C you can either accept that (and try to address it if you're so inclined) or stick your fingers in your ears and ignore it but you're not going to make people not feel that way by saying "Nuh-uh! Doesn't count!"
Haha you got me, I guessed I expected more substance than speculation from dopers. Might just be the group I reeled in with my post.
  #107  
Old 06-18-2019, 12:41 AM
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Why on Earth should stock buy backs be illegal?
iirc wages have stagnated(declined) since 1970s when Reagan legalized them.


If I'm missing something please let me know, I'm also not saying stock buy backs are the ultimate factor, but they're a significant factor.
  #108  
Old 06-18-2019, 01:13 AM
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Bernie seems to have the best mix of policies to appeal to a wide range of progressives, including the anti-war voters that Democrats mostly seem not to recognize. I think he is likely to win the nomination. He may be the single most electable candidate if polling is to be believed.

But he's old. He's so old. I'm scared of him having a stroke or something.
  #109  
Old 06-18-2019, 01:20 AM
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the DNC pushed their personal favorite candidate despite the American people appearing to want Bernie instead. That's what happens when you force something down our throats, we refuse and say fuck you.
Ok, look, I personally thought the Democrats did something stupid in guaranteeing Hillary Clinton the nomination in 2016. Mostly because I saw she had some pretty unelectable qualities. But to continue to believe that somehow Bernie Sanders was more popular than Hillary Clinton simply ignores the actual facts. Bernie Sanders was a populist candidate who generated a lot of interest. But in the end, he was beaten because the Democratic Party's voters preferred the more "centrist" candidate. So your statement about "the American people appearing to want Bernie instead" is just unreal nonsense.

I also note that you didn't address my thoughts on why I wouldn't support Bernie Sanders. I'm a centrist; you NEED my support for Bernie if you want him elected. You might try addressing my concerns, rather than acting like anything the least bit "centrist" is just selling out. That approach will not convince me to support your candidate, even against someone like the President.
  #110  
Old 06-18-2019, 03:59 AM
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Absurd


This thread strikes me as increasingly absurd.

@ Mr. Obama ó Did we understand correctly that if Biden or Harris is the D nominee, you won't vote for him/her? That you will vote for Green Party or some such? Because "moderate D's are the same as R's ..."?

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What do you think the cons of being old are on policy decisions? I think the cons are that old people are more moderate, or conservative. They want things to stay the way they are. Bernie opposes this in everyway, so the cons of being old do not affect his policy. On the contrary he proposes new things that spark interest, such as M4A, college free tuition, etc.
Some of us prefer 60-year old candidates to 70-year old candidates NOT because of any over-generalization about age/policy correlation, but because the older politician is ... OLD! More prone to reduced mental acuity or even brain degradation (Reagan was mentally incompetent for much of his 2nd term). More prone to disabling accidents or diseases. More easily fatigued, and so on. When the DCI wakes up the Prez at 3 a.m. to announce bombs are falling on Jerusalem we don't want a shocked Potus to suffer cardiac arrest. I'm almost 70 myself, and I sure wouldn't be scampering up the steps of Air Force One two at a time!

Exactly half the U.S. Prezzes were less than 55 years old when first inaugurated.

Is 70 the new 60? Maybe. But Ike was only 62 when inaugurated and some thought he was old. The four oldest at 1st Inauguration ó Buchanan (almost 65), W.H. Harrison (68), Reagan (almost 70), Trump (almost 71) ó read almost like a who's-who of incompetent Prezzes. Even Liz Warren would smash the records set by Reagan and Trump to become oldest Prez elected.

And Sanders would be almost 80 when first Inaugurated. Seventy-Nine. With an N. Sure, he's still a fervent socialist, and we admire him for that! But seventy-Nine is NOT the prime of life.

(Obviously the same arguments apply against the aging Biden. Even Liz Warren ó whose 70th birthday is next week (June 22) ó is a "spring chicken" compared with Biden and Bernie! )

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I guess the jews are also responsible for Hitler's actions? Do you understand how absurd that is?
OK. I won't alter the quote to emphasize the operative word here. But I've chosen it for the post title.
  #111  
Old 06-18-2019, 04:06 AM
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I don't think they would be worse, but I'm not going to vote for them. And thats not why trump won, trump won because the DNC pushed their personal favorite candidate despite the American people appearing to want Bernie instead. That's what happens when you force something down our throats, we refuse and say fuck you. .
Ah, that old familiar refrain...

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The "Bernie Bro" contingent (by which I mean the irrationally rabid core of his base) remind me of Ron Paui's supporters - they are hardcore True Believers who spent the 2016 fucking things up while demanding that everyone bow down to Saint Bernie and claiming that the whole country were really behind them if only the DNC would let them show it and then petulantly whining about how everyone was being so mean and unfair. This was not Sanders' fault, although his efforts to mitigate their effects were tepid at best, but nonetheless they're already out in force and likely to fuck things up again. Also: you know that sense of entitlement that Sanders supporters repeatedly accused Clinton of, regarding the nomination? Here's a mirror, guys.
Yes, that sounds familiar.

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Attacking Bernie isn't going to get you very far, just like running on attacking Trump didn't get hillary very far.
How's attacking the Democratic Party been working out for you?

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Haha you got me, I guessed I expected more substance than speculation from dopers. Might just be the group I reeled in with my post.
Yes, if you literally ignore all the substantive responses in this thread, there's no substance.

You asked the question. We answered it. Just because you don't like the answers doesn't make us wrong.
  #112  
Old 06-18-2019, 04:10 AM
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I think the message that moderate Democrats cannot win votes from socialists, populists, nor the anti-war vote is strategically necessary. If the party of "the left" does not nominate someone who can pull in that broad category called "the left" then they can't win.

Both Brad DeLong and Peter Daou have been making this point lately. The moderates need the progressives, and need to concede to the progressives, and even need to let the Bernie types lead, in order not to lose to the hard right.
  #113  
Old 06-18-2019, 04:25 AM
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I think the message that moderate Democrats cannot win votes from socialists, populists, nor the anti-war vote is strategically necessary. If the party of "the left" does not nominate someone who can pull in that broad category called "the left" then they can't win.

Both Brad DeLong and Peter Daou have been making this point lately. The moderates need the progressives, and need to concede to the progressives, and even need to let the Bernie types lead, in order not to lose to the hard right.
Oh, the Democrats absolutely need progressive candidates and progressive voters, and one of Bernie's greatest achievements is forcing the party to move to the left in order to reach out to them (although it's not doing remotely enough). And if the Democratic Party actually cares about winning more, it will have to keep reaching out to them at all levels of government.

But that's not the same as needing Bernie as President. As already discussed, Sanders hasn't even used his current seniority in Congress to drive his agenda; instead, it's taken Warren and AOC to actually start driving that change. The metaphor holds: Sanders is the Prophet, not the Messiah. Prophets may speak the uncomfortable truths people need to hear, but they're not very good at running things.
  #114  
Old 06-18-2019, 06:29 AM
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you NEED my support for Bernie :
On the contrary he further expands the progressive wing as it grows. I love the hesitance to change, hope you don't consider yourself a liberal.

Last edited by Barack Obama; 06-18-2019 at 06:29 AM.
  #115  
Old 06-18-2019, 06:31 AM
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You asked the question. We answered it. Just because you don't like the answers doesn't make us wrong.
I don't recall saying anyone was wrong. I think because of the framework of this thread may have skewed your perception of what has been said here. Not going to continue to speculate on what you're thinking, quote me next time.
  #116  
Old 06-18-2019, 06:33 AM
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As already discussed, Sanders hasn't even used his current seniority in Congress to drive his agenda; instead, it's taken Warren and AOC to actually start driving that change. The metaphor holds: Sanders is the Prophet, not the Messiah. Prophets may speak the uncomfortable truths people need to hear, but they're not very good at running things.
Let's elected biden to run the progressive agenda instead.
  #117  
Old 06-18-2019, 06:38 AM
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On the contrary he further expands the progressive wing as it grows.
Awesome. Sounds like he should be 10-15 points ahead in the primary polls then. I'd vote for him but doesn't seem like he needs it.
  #118  
Old 06-18-2019, 06:56 AM
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Let's elected biden to run the progressive agenda instead.
I will take this non sequitur to mean that you concede the point I made, since you haven't bothered to rebut what I actually said and have ignored my earlier statement that I'd prefer Biden weren't running either.
  #119  
Old 06-18-2019, 07:20 AM
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Attacking Bernie isn't going to get you very far, just like running on attacking Trump didn't get hillary very far.
But running on attacking Hillary got Trump elected.

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The moderates need the progressives, and need to concede to the progressives, and even need to let the Bernie types lead, in order not to lose to the hard right.
I'm pretty dubious about the argument that what the Democrats need to do is to chase the Republicans further and further right. But saying that we need a candidate who can pull in those of the Left who didn't show up last time to get out of their chairs and off their high horses and come in and vote doesn't mean that we need to pick Bernie.

I voted for Sanders last time in the primaries, in large part because I was terrified that Clinton would lose; the Republicans had been running against her ever since Bill was president, and had succeeded over the years in getting an awful lot of people to automatically run in the other direction when they heard her name. (I voted for Clinton in November, of course.) But I'm unlikely to vote for Sanders in the primaries this time (though I'll vote for him in November if he wins the nomination, of course) for several reasons: partly because I think that he, like Clinton, has accumulated too many weak spots/baggage over the years and will be an easy target for the Republicans; partly because of his age -- I'm 68, and even at 68 very few people can get as much work done in a day as they could ten or twenty years previously, and being POTUS is physically very stressing, at least if it's taken seriously (unlike by Trump) as it ought to be --; partly because he doesn't, as has been said, have a very good track record at actually getting his policies into practice. He has, recently, been quite good at getting them talked about -- but bear in mind he's been in Congress since 1991; and during most of that time most people hadn't heard of him, so I don't know that he was all that good even at getting them talked about by people who weren't already ready to hear them. I grant that some of the work that's lead to an electorate in the 20teens being receptive to his opinions has been done by Sanders over that nearly 30 years; but a lot of it has also been done by other people. He's helped build that wave, yes; but he didn't build it on his own, and it's also because of other people's work that he can ride it.

I'm hoping that by the time NY holds a primary somebody will stand out from the current pack. Last time I really wanted Warren to run; but she's acquired additional baggage of her own in the meantime; plus of course an additional four years of age. And we could really use her in the Senate.
  #120  
Old 06-18-2019, 08:00 AM
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B.O.,

You make comparisons to Europeís parties of the Left.

You realize they also have a rise of nationalist and fascist parties of the Right. Their systems are different but at the point that it comes to choosing who governs the Left there will join with those more in the center if it keeps the fascists out of control. They donít say let us, a minority, have the control or weíll let the fascists rule and thatíll larn you.

Fight for the nomination. Defend your ideas. But I believe anyone who lets their idea of the perfect be an excuse for letting true evil win (just so they can claim no responsibility for the deficiencies of the imperfect) is making a mistake.

But you do you.
  #121  
Old 06-18-2019, 08:11 AM
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You make comparisons to Europeís parties of the Left.

You realize they also have a rise of nationalist and fascist parties of the Right
I think it's more so the rise of authoritarianism. Democracy historically suicides it's self, the reich is simply a symptom of inequality. How about we address those in power and hold them accountable, instead of havng a lackluster argument about how we shouldn't kill the king, I'll say this again, fuck the king.
  #122  
Old 06-18-2019, 09:06 AM
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But as usual, nobody wants to argue against sanders policies or proposals, they're too populist. Instead they argue against the man himself, too old, too white, too heterosexual, too male.
You keep saying this, as though Sanders is the only one who wants to raise taxes and improve our social services.

Among the candidates, we are taking about variations of Coke, Pepsi, and maybe Dr. Pepper at the most extreme. You keep painting it like itís a choice between one glass of fine wine and 20 glasses of pee.
  #123  
Old 06-18-2019, 09:37 AM
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I think the message that moderate Democrats cannot win votes from socialists, populists, nor the anti-war vote is strategically necessary. If the party of "the left" does not nominate someone who can pull in that broad category called "the left" then they can't win.

Both Brad DeLong and Peter Daou have been making this point lately. The moderates need the progressives, and need to concede to the progressives, and even need to let the Bernie types lead, in order not to lose to the hard right.
I guess what I don't understand is why this argument doesn't work in both directions. I mean, it is trivially true that the moderates need the progressives in order to win in the general... but isn't it equally, if not more, true that the progressives need the moderates in order to win in the general? And if it is true - and it is - that both sides need one another in order to win, then whence the argument that Side A should just completely concede to Side B? This makes no sense to me.
  #124  
Old 06-18-2019, 09:42 AM
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You keep saying this, as though Sanders is the only one who wants to raise taxes and improve our social services.

Among the candidates, we are taking about variations of Coke, Pepsi, and maybe Dr. Pepper at the most extreme. You keep painting it like itís a choice between one glass of fine wine and 20 glasses of pee.
Yes. This is especially true since Congress will need to approve any legislation. In fact, as I suggested above, the more moderate President may have a better chance of getting a radical agenda passed.

I'm dismayed that Bernie supporters and other progressives do not understand this.
  #125  
Old 06-18-2019, 09:57 AM
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To be fair many, maybe most, do.

The position of the op is nonzero but not the norm.
  #126  
Old 06-18-2019, 10:28 AM
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That's some pretty bold claims about Bernie being a sexist. But let's assume everything you said is true, does that in anyway shape or form take away from the bills hes proposed? Such as M4A or SS expansion, or making stock buy backs illegal? OR what about the proposals he's made, such as legalizing drugs, raising minimum wage, free college tuition?

Attacking Bernie isn't going to get you very far, just like running on attacking Trump didn't get hillary very far.
You asked why...and I'm telling you why. Each of those claims can be backed up with a google search. It isn't hard. Go for it.

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You will vote for Bernie Sanders and you will like it.

Actually I won't. I won't vote for him. I'm under no obligation to do so, and I will not vote for anyone I think is morally repugnant. If that means I say home and vote for neither Trump or Sanders, that is what I will do.

Last edited by Dangerosa; 06-18-2019 at 10:28 AM.
  #127  
Old 06-18-2019, 10:35 AM
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1) Party. He's not a Democrat. I'm all for a 'big tent' but I don't think it unreasonable to ask the person running for the nomination of a political party to be a member of that political party, and Sanders refuses to do so while still trying to win that position. It's not a good message and Sanders hasn't addressed it in any way that didn't come across as wanting to have his cake and eat it too. That said, I'm not a Democrat either - but then I'm not running for office under their banner.
This is my reason for not supporting him in the primaries.

He only wants to be part of the group when the group can help him get a big job. If he had stayed with the Dems after 2016, I'd have a different opinion, but he didn't.
  #128  
Old 06-18-2019, 10:49 AM
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This is my reason for not supporting him in the primaries.

He only wants to be part of the group when the group can help him get a big job. If he had stayed with the Dems after 2016, I'd have a different opinion, but he didn't.
Its one of my big reasons for not supporting him at all. I find it offensively unethical to demand that a group support you, but do not return the loyalty. Its narcissistic, and we have one of those in office. We need a public servant, not a self absorbed egoist.
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Old 06-18-2019, 10:53 AM
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Oh, and he's had plenty of chances in government to actually write those bills, sponsor them and build the support he needs to get them to the floor in his many years in Congress. Why, when he had (has) the power to create legislation, did he not create this legislation and move it forward? Why should we believe he will do so when he is President - a position that does not have the power to create legislation?
  #130  
Old 06-18-2019, 12:14 PM
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Barack Obama, may I ask what state you live in? And if it's not too personal, what Congressional district?
  #131  
Old 06-18-2019, 01:02 PM
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Lets not forget what a vile shitbag Sanders was after it was clear he wasn’t going to get the nomination. He continued his scorched earth rhetoric even after the last primary! Take it to the convention!!! Superdelegates haven’t voted yet, let’s harass them into voting for the candidate who got fewer votes in the primaries. He kept his secret service protection for at least a month after the last primary votes were cast.

He was around around for Nader, he can’t be so stupid as to not know that giving all those college kids false hope would lead to third party votes, write ins, or just staying home and pouting.

As I’ve mentioned before, it’s the equivalent of having your heart broken after breaking up with a boyfriend or girlfriend, and that one false friend keeps ripping the wound open by constantly telling you who they saw your ex with last weekend. Bernie had to know that it was going to take time for his most fervent supporters to accept voting for Clinton.
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  #132  
Old 06-18-2019, 01:07 PM
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Man, I hope you didn't think that was going to make anyone more inclined to vote for Sanders.
I have great doubts as to his motives, in fact i dont think he wants anyone to vote for any Democratic candidate, including Sanders. IMHO.
  #133  
Old 06-18-2019, 01:24 PM
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How's attacking the Democratic Party been working out for you?
...
You asked the question. We answered it. Just because you don't like the answers doesn't make us wrong.
It worked very well for the kremlin in 2016, why not try the same tactic?
  #134  
Old 06-18-2019, 01:37 PM
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I think the message that moderate Democrats cannot win votes from socialists, populists, nor the anti-war vote is strategically necessary. If the party of "the left" does not nominate someone who can pull in that broad category called "the left" then they can't win.

Both Brad DeLong and Peter Daou have been making this point lately. The moderates need the progressives, and need to concede to the progressives, and even need to let the Bernie types lead, in order not to lose to the hard right.
It's a false message. With the exception of the 2016 election the opposite has been true. Some strange things happened in that election, like the Comey letter, and the interference of the kremlin.

The Comey letter wont happen again. Yes, the kremlin and GOP trolls will attempt to divide the Democratic party, in fact they are doing it now, as we speak. But Facebook and voters are more aware and wise. Sure, some will be taken in, and feed the trolls, pass their crap along, but not like 2016.

However, just like in 2016, the Moderates do have to bend to the progressives- which they did by putting most of Bernies ideas in as planks in their platform.
  #135  
Old 06-18-2019, 01:44 PM
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(I'm from the UK, so I don't get to vote.)

However Trump is a disaster not only for the US, but also for the rest of the World.
For example we have an election here + now in which the leading candidate (Boris Johnson) is a lying incompetent. But he uses Trump-like tactics to get ahead.

So by all means adopt Sander's policies if they are a) useful and b) justifiable.
But I don't think he's the actual politician to run against Trump.

And if you're a Sanders' supporter who won't support any other candidate for the Democratic nomination, shame on you.
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  #136  
Old 06-18-2019, 01:46 PM
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[QUOTE=thorny locust;21703213]But running on attacking Hillary got Trump elected.

..../QUOTE]

Yep.
  #137  
Old 06-18-2019, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
You keep saying this, as though Sanders is the only one who wants to raise taxes and improve our social services.

Among the candidates, we are taking about variations of Coke, Pepsi, and maybe Dr. Pepper at the most extreme. You keep painting it like itís a choice between one glass of fine wine and 20 glasses of pee.
Oh no, the difference between any Dem candidate and trump is the choice between one glass of fine wine and 20 glasses of pee. But true, the Dem candidates are fairly close.
  #138  
Old 06-18-2019, 02:50 PM
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While I like Bernie and appreciate his progressive stances, I feel that at this point the country needs to be pulled back to center after it's very hard right turn into weirdness. I'd like to see Joe run with a progressive VP pick, like Mayor Pete. I think Pete could stand to get more practical experience in the major league and Joe could use someone with a fresh perspective close to his ears. Best to leave the progressive firebrands like Bernie and Waters in the Senate where they can probably make more of a difference than they would as President. Beto should actually win something else first before trying on the "daddy pants". Kamala, bless her heart, seems to have almost as much charisma as Joe Friday. That said, I'd rejoice in any one of them over what we have presently. Now, if you'll excuse me I have to use the Trump.
  #139  
Old 06-18-2019, 03:19 PM
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I don't think they would be worse, but I'm not going to vote for them. And thats not why trump won, trump won because the DNC pushed their personal favorite candidate despite the American people appearing to want Bernie instead. That's what happens when you force something down our throats, we refuse and say fuck you.

And nah I think I'll stay registered to vote dem, so I can change the party to represent the american people instead of corporations. Hopefully centrists in washington living in their bubble learned their lesson, if not we can do 4 more years of this until it gets through their heads Americans had enough of the status quo.
I agree that the DNC stacked the deck against Bernie last time around. Whether or not that gave Trump the election is debatable. Hillary took Ohio and Pennsylvania for granted and found out they were not. That, as much as anything else probably tipped the scale in Dump's favor. Bernie did not play well among black voters. If he had the nomination enough of them might have stayed home feeling that they were not invested in the election. That might have given Dumpster the nod as well.
  #140  
Old 06-18-2019, 03:30 PM
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I agree that the DNC stacked the deck against Bernie last time around. ...
Nope. At best they gave her a tiny edge in a couple debates.
  #141  
Old 06-18-2019, 03:58 PM
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He borrowed Trump's argument of the elections being rigged against him in the primaries last time. And he seems to be borrowing the concept of being against identity politics (under the right wing definition) this time. The second I heard about that, he lost me for good. He became my "hold your nose and vote" candidate if he were to win the nomination.

Sorry, but you don't deal with your problem reaching out to non-white voters by declaring the other people not to matter. And that is what the attack on "identity politics" is. It decries the idea of black people having concerns that cause them to vote together. It decries the idea of gay people having concerns that cause them to vote together. And it ironically only really appeals to one identity group: the cishet white male, for whom identity isn't actually important.

"Identity politics" actually means "people with commonalities in social groups will tend to have the same issues, and thus come together as a political block." It's normal. They have issues, and they'll vote on those issues, which will generally mean voting for the same candidate.

The only real contradiction is intersectionalism, which points out that people actually have multiple identities, and how they intersect will influence their issues, and thus how they vote. You can't assume the whole will be the sum of the parts.

The only meaning I can come up with for the derogatory "identity politics" is simply that "those stupid nonwhite people don't vote right!" With Bernie supporting that, he's not really a progressive at all.
  #142  
Old 06-18-2019, 04:05 PM
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Primarily, I don't like his trade policies and he's too old. I'd still vote for him over Trump.
  #143  
Old 06-18-2019, 06:35 PM
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Barack Obama, may I ask what state you live in? And if it's not too personal, what Congressional district?
SC 1st district, we flipped blue from sanford because Trump supported some lady who wouldn't reject his intentions to drill off our shores. So sanford lost to her, then she lost to the dem joe cunningham, because of that off-shore drilling crap.

Yes, I've voted for Sanford. and yeah if you look it up, he did cheat on his wife using tax payer money. He was still a good rep.
  #144  
Old 06-18-2019, 06:38 PM
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Primarily, I don't like his trade policies and he's too old. I'd still vote for him over Trump.
You support exporting 800,000 jobs to Mexico and US workers competing with mexican workers? That was the one thing Trump could have done right, was tear up NAFTA. Too bad he played ball with the establishment despite running as a populist.
  #145  
Old 06-18-2019, 06:58 PM
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The only meaning I can come up with for the derogatory "identity politics" is simply that "those stupid nonwhite people don't vote right!" With Bernie supporting that, he's not really a progressive at all.
Part of the reason women and minorities don't like him is that he tends to be a patronizing jackass - this line of thought is not new to him "if we only were as smart as he was, we'd see...." I can't begin to tell you how offensive I find this.

He tend to see all issues as economic issues, downplaying - well usually ignoring - problems of racism and sexism and homophobia and pretty much anything else that doesn't tie into his belief that its all economics.

That is NOT what we need. We need people who are at least willing to acknowledge the issues we have with racism and sexism in our country - because there aren't easy solutions to the -isms - but there is no solution that involves ignoring them and hoping that if we raise the minimum wage, people will give a qualified guy named Devoh'n an interview or promote Madisyn who just got married without considering if she might have a baby in the next year and leave the company or not find a reason to lay off the accountant who used to be Steve but is now Rachel.
  #146  
Old 06-18-2019, 07:52 PM
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Yes, I've voted for Sanford. and yeah if you look it up, he did cheat on his wife using tax payer money. He was still a good rep.
Wait now. You happily voted for Mark Sanford, who was one of the strongest opponents of government spending (including trying to decline a billion dollars in Obamaís stimulus funds that were to be spent in your state); and you have the fucking nerve to criticize people who vote for centrist Democrats?

Is this some kind a dumb joke?
  #147  
Old 06-18-2019, 08:00 PM
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You support exporting 800,000 jobs to Mexico and US workers competing with mexican workers?
I support you and the government keeping your noses out of who I decide to trade with. Seeing that we've created (net) 40 million jobs since then, you might want to try a different angle.
  #148  
Old 06-18-2019, 08:00 PM
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On the contrary he further expands the progressive wing as it grows. I love the hesitance to change, hope you don't consider yourself a liberal.
Uh, right, because when was the last time a left-wing progressive candidate won the White House? How's that working for you? Oh, let's go ask Walter Mondale...

So basically, this thread isn't an attempt to find out why people aren't supporting your guy. It's a thinly disguised attempt to tell everyone what they already know: that you like Bernie and won't vote for anyone less liberal than him. How silly of me to think you actually wanted to engage in true discussion.
  #149  
Old 06-18-2019, 08:59 PM
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I grew up in a conservative household and have voted for more Republicans than I have democrats (2-1). I've talked to a lot of people of different ideologies, I spend most of my time talking to people in fact. I hold libertarian positions, conservative positions, liberal positions, and progressive positions. I've also been offered to help work on the Trump campaign if that floats your boat. How I got into that position is irrelevant to this topic but if you want to address me personally, you might want to find out who I am before making assumptions about me.
Oh, I think I know enough about you to make some assumptions. I don't believe you're a progressive. I don't believe you're a socialist. I don't believe you took the user name Barack Obama with anything resembling any sort of admiration for the man or even the respect due any human being.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barack Obama View Post
SC 1st district, we flipped blue from sanford because Trump supported some lady who wouldn't reject his intentions to drill off our shores. So sanford lost to her, then she lost to the dem joe cunningham, because of that off-shore drilling crap.

Yes, I've voted for Sanford. and yeah if you look it up, he did cheat on his wife using tax payer money. He was still a good rep.
'

So you live in a state that has been solidly red in presidential elections, and a Congressional district that was solidly Republican from 1981-2019, and you voted for the Republican in 2018.

Okay, you've proved your Bernie Bro credentials to me. You go right on and fight the good fight for Sanders, and don't vote for any Democratic candidate because you have your principles. And the rest of us on the board will know exactly what your politics are and how important your opinion is.

Last edited by Kent Clark; 06-18-2019 at 09:00 PM.
  #150  
Old 06-18-2019, 10:08 PM
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iirc wages have stagnated(declined) since 1970s when Reagan legalized them.


If I'm missing something please let me know, I'm also not saying stock buy backs are the ultimate factor, but they're a significant factor.
Reagan didn't even become President until 1981.

As far as I know, stock repurchases have never been illegal. Do you have evidence to the contrary?
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