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Old 06-22-2019, 01:22 PM
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Oregon vs. Right-Wing Militias, Round 2


At least I think this is the 2nd round; I welcome correction if I've got that wrong.

For those not following along at home yet: Militia threat shuts down Oregon Statehouse amid walkout.

A few days ago some Oregon lawmakerslegislators walked out of the Capitol to prevent a vote on a bill. But they couldn't just leave the building, or marshals or sheriffs or whatever might have tried to get them to go back to the Capitol Building to vote. So they had to leave the state. Yes, this happens from time to time with various state legislatures.

But this time became different when those who walked started issuing threats:
Quote:
Brown hinted that she would be willing to send state troopers to round up Republicans if they walk out in the final days of the regular legislative session, saying in a statement that she is “in close communication with Oregon State Police.” That’s an option Democratic senators and the governor did not use earlier this year, when Senate Republicans first brought the Senate to a standstill by walking out and preventing the necessary quorum.

The governor’s hint that she would consider sending troopers in the event of a second walkout triggered an aggressive response from Boquist, which was captured by a KGW news team at the Capitol.

“This is what I told the superintendent,” Boquist said, referring to OSP Superintendent Travis Hampton. “Send bachelors and come heavily armed. I’m not going to be a political prisoner in the state of Oregon. It’s just that simple.”
And then this happened:
Quote:
“The Oregon State Police has recommended that the Capitol be closed tomorrow due to a possible militia threat,” Carol Currie, spokeswoman for Senate President Peter Courtney, said in an e-mail to The Associated Press late Friday.

The governor’s office also confirmed the threats.

Oregon State Police, in a statement, said it has been “monitoring information throughout the day that indicates the safety of legislators, staff and citizen visitors could be compromised if certain threatened behaviors were realized.”
Oregon, and by extension the United States, has a serious problem with organized groups of people disregarding the law and threatening violence (and committing violence) against lawful officers of the state trying to do their jobs, IMO; YMMV (and I'd be interested to read your posts on this subject if that's the case).

The thing is: what will Oregon do? What can they do? And what should they do?

I don't know the answers to these questions, but it seems obvious that they can't just stop doing things and shut things down all the time whenever a militia threatens or presents themselves; that's kind of the opposite of what a government should be doing, IMO.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 06-22-2019 at 01:24 PM.
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Old 06-22-2019, 02:11 PM
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. . .

I don't know the answers to these questions, . . .
As an outsider, I would ask: Isn't it up to the people of Oregon, the voters? If they share your revulsion, they should vote them out at the first opportunity. Or has gerrymandering made that a naive hope?
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Old 06-22-2019, 02:43 PM
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simple get what passes for a majority impeach them and throw them out make sure they cant get re-elected and elect new ones ....
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Old 06-22-2019, 02:46 PM
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As an outsider, I would ask: Isn't it up to the people of Oregon, the voters? If they share your revulsion, they should vote them out at the first opportunity. Or has gerrymandering made that a naive hope?
The question is, as it often is, "how much harder should the dems have to work to pass their agenda than republicans"?

Should the democratic party need to hold enough seats to hold quorum? Currently, democrats hold 6/10 seats in the Oregon legislature. For quorum, they need to pick up another two, to hold a 2/3rds majority. Is that a reasonable bar for the democrats to have to clear?

As an outsider, I'm not blind to what is clearly a disgusting perversion of democracy, and just the latest in a long line of such from the republican party. You shouldn't be either.
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Old 06-22-2019, 02:52 PM
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I'm quite concerned about this. Looks like my state is going to the be the test case for how far Trump/Barr/McConnell will go to hang on to power. In ordinary times, a governor could appeal to the federal government for assistance from the FBI and US federal marshals. But with the trifecta of law breakers in charge, I'm not sure which side they would send them to assist.

KarlGauss, I would agree with you that the best remedy would be to vote out the offenders. The problem is, Oregon (and Washington) are literally divided in half: To the west are the "libruls," to the east are the "militias." It is a very sharp divide. The people to the east are Trump supporters in far greater numbers than in the west. They want this fight -- and I suspect, so does Trump. They are going to continue to vote for these lawless legislators.

I guess we'll soon learn how far the rule of law has already eroded, and how much further it will be allowed to go. Mr. Boquist and his cohorts are already certainly in violation of their oaths of office, and quite possible also the law. I wonder, does it still matter? Will they be held to account?
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Old 06-22-2019, 02:59 PM
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These quorum laws are the problem. Make a quorum 50% and you never have this issue in some states where the minority is leaving the state and dodging the Sergeant at Arms. The Dems have tried this in Texas, IIRC.

But doing things like closing the capitol just emboldens the crazies because you let them know that their threats work. Don't close the capitol. Call out the national guard.
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Old 06-22-2019, 03:34 PM
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Also, which news outlets predicted this kind of development, and which news outlets spent a whole lot of time bitching about Antifa without mentioning the right's increasing connection to extremist militias?
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Old 06-22-2019, 04:57 PM
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As an outsider, I would ask: Isn't it up to the people of Oregon, the voters? If they share your revulsion, they should vote them out at the first opportunity. Or has gerrymandering made that a naive hope?
How does one "vote out" a militia? I'm not clear on how you think that could or would be accomplished.
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Old 06-22-2019, 04:58 PM
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These quorum laws are the problem. Make a quorum 50% and you never have this issue in some states where the minority is leaving the state and dodging the Sergeant at Arms. The Dems have tried this in Texas, IIRC.

But doing things like closing the capitol just emboldens the crazies because you let them know that their threats work. Don't close the capitol. Call out the national guard.
The problem isn't quorum laws; it's militias threatening the capitol. And it's elected officials threatening violence to keep from doing their jobs.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 06-22-2019 at 05:00 PM.
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Old 06-22-2019, 08:12 PM
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Well, I think the threat by the Governor to "round 'em up!" was ill-considered, given the fact that the militias have played such a part in Oregon politics. I would have simply kept quiet, then exercised my authority as head of the executive branch if I found an opportunity to arrest two of the missing state senators. Threatening use of police powers never is a particularly cowing tactic where militia types are concerned.
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Old 06-22-2019, 08:16 PM
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Elected officials should be treated the some way as anyone else. If they threaten violence, or commit it, they pay the penalty.

Militias are not duly elected representatives of the people. Consequently, they don't get to tell the government how to run, or tell any of us what to do. If they are breaking laws, they too need to pay the appropriate penalty for doing so.

Lock 'em up.
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Old 06-22-2019, 09:14 PM
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Glad someone started a thread on this. I do not understand the motives of these right wingers at all.

Oregon was going to pass cap and trade. The right freaked out because, from what I have read, this policy would according to them raise expenses on businesses and more generally for energy/fuel.

Don't they see there is more to it than that? Climate change is real- are they math denialists? Incapable of following the evidence that points toward climate change? Ready to take the world on a Thelma and Louise cliff drive rather than face reality? Unable to grasp that climate change will result in more of the refugees they hate, and far larger expenses than cap and trade will cause?

That is kind of what it looks like to me, but I doubt those are right. Is there some deep rooted conspiracy theory at work? Is there a huge economic disparity between the two halves of the state? Lead in the water?

I truly don't understand what people are so afraid of that the Law n Order Republicans are willing to flee and threaten to shoot cops. What's the bugaboo here?
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Old 06-24-2019, 03:58 PM
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Elected officials should be treated the some way as anyone else. If they threaten violence, or commit it, they pay the penalty.

Militias are not duly elected representatives of the people. Consequently, they don't get to tell the government how to run, or tell any of us what to do. If they are breaking laws, they too need to pay the appropriate penalty for doing so.

Lock 'em up.
This. If I threatened to shoot state troopers, I imagine there would be consequences as a result of my threats. An elected official who makes that threat should face the repercussions as well.
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Old 06-24-2019, 04:19 PM
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The real problem here isn't the militias themselves - it's the Republican Party of Oregon endorsing their behavior, celebrating the fact that armed militia intimidated legislators of the opposing party.

This is a total repudiation of democracy as anything more than a tool that's useful as long as it works in their favor. (Losing at the ballot box? Time to bring out the guns.) It should be condemned by anyone who believes in democracy.

BTW, I called the Republican National Committee to see if they were condemning this action. No, they weren't - they weren't going to say anything about it at all because each state's GOP organization is independent of the national organization, and they were referring any questions about it to the Oregon GOP.

Bet that wouldn't be their reaction if a state GOP condemned the treatment of children at the border. But that aside, nothing was preventing them from taking a stand on this action by a state organization sharing the GOP label. No, I think it's fair to say the RNC has effectively condoned this action through their silence.
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Old 06-24-2019, 04:20 PM
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This. If I threatened to shoot state troopers, I imagine there would be consequences as a result of my threats. An elected official who makes that threat should face the repercussions as well.
And they're all Blue Lives Matter, until...
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Old 06-24-2019, 04:47 PM
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The problem isn't quorum laws; it's militias threatening the capitol. And it's elected officials threatening violence to keep from doing their jobs.
Then your Op is very confusing. It was mostly about quorums, and little about militia.

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Old 06-24-2019, 04:50 PM
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As an outsider, I would ask: Isn't it up to the people of Oregon, the voters? If they share your revulsion, they should vote them out at the first opportunity. Or has gerrymandering made that a naive hope?
It's not exactly Gerrymandered it's just geography. You have the cities Portland, Eugene, and to a lesser extent Salem which are bastions of bleeding heart, tree hugging, save the gay whales liberalism, that would be right at home in San Francisco. But outside those cities especially on the Eastern part of the state you have political thought that matches the don't tread on me, get the gum'ment out of my medicare, attitude of Idaho and Montana. More people live in the cities than in the rural regions so these conservatives are basically shut out of state government, and have built up a lot of resentment over Portland telling them what they can and can't do.

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Old 06-24-2019, 05:16 PM
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5 days now.
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Senate Republican leaders and the Democratic president are negotiating, the governor’s office said. Republican Senate leader Herman Baertschiger said in a statement that he’s in contact with the chamber’s leaders but that “no deal with the Democrats has been made.”

The discussion has quickly morphed into something far beyond climate change.
I can't wait to hear about how this all the fault of Democrats.

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Old 06-24-2019, 05:26 PM
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So... is there a warrant out for the arrest of the senator who threatened the police yet?

If not, why the fuck not?
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Old 06-24-2019, 06:33 PM
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Negotiations are over.
Quote:
Oregon Gov. Kate Brown said Monday she won’t negotiate with Republicans who walked out to thwart landmark climate legislation, at least not until they return to the Capitol.
Quote:
Brown blasted Baertschiger in an interview with The Associated Press, saying she refuses to negotiate with the Senate Minority Leader until he returns to the building.

“If he wants to negotiate with the governor of the state of Oregon, he needs to be in the building,” she said. “Or at least be in the state of Oregon.”

A spokeswoman for Baertschiger said he was unavailable to comment beyond the statement.
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Old 06-24-2019, 06:36 PM
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So... is there a warrant out for the arrest of the senator who threatened the police yet?

If not, why the fuck not?
My guess? Because Democrats in general are weak. Weak weak weak. She'll be afraid of provoking their supporters and dealing with the inevitable right-wing putsch-back (sp? ), so she'll do as little as possible, which will ultimately embolden her opposition.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 06-24-2019 at 06:36 PM.
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Old 06-24-2019, 06:36 PM
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Glad someone started a thread on this. I do not understand the motives of these right wingers at all.

Oregon was going to pass cap and trade. The right freaked out because, from what I have read, this policy would according to them raise expenses on businesses and more generally for energy/fuel.

Don't they see there is more to it than that? Climate change is real- are they math denialists? Incapable of following the evidence that points toward climate change? Ready to take the world on a Thelma and Louise cliff drive rather than face reality? Unable to grasp that climate change will result in more of the refugees they hate, and far larger expenses than cap and trade will cause?

That is kind of what it looks like to me, but I doubt those are right. Is there some deep rooted conspiracy theory at work? Is there a huge economic disparity between the two halves of the state? Lead in the water?

I truly don't understand what people are so afraid of that the Law n Order Republicans are willing to flee and threaten to shoot cops. What's the bugaboo here?
I am not a conservative but I think it's because many feel they are the superior, authentic, appointed by God people and everyone else is an interloper. And now they have to live in a society run by people they consider inferior, inauthentic outsiders. Climate change isn't the issue, these same senators were threatening to walk out over bills on vaccination and gun control.

White militia groups have a lot on common with Muslim extremist groups. It's the same mentality at root just expressed in different cultures. A group of fundamentalist extremists who think Dog is on their side are trying to protect their own status in a rapidly changing world are enraged that people they consider inauthentic inferiors are invading 'their' society and calling the shots.
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Old 06-24-2019, 06:41 PM
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I hope that the Democrats have the bills all drafted up and ready to go on those other things, and force them all through as soon as a couple of the coward are rounded up and dragged into the Capitol Building.
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Old 06-24-2019, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunny Daze View Post
Elected officials should be treated the some way as anyone else. If they threaten violence, or commit it, they pay the penalty.

Militias are not duly elected representatives of the people. Consequently, they don't get to tell the government how to run, or tell any of us what to do. If they are breaking laws, they too need to pay the appropriate penalty for doing so.

Lock 'em up.
This. If I threatened to shoot state troopers, I imagine there would be consequences as a result of my threats. An elected official who makes that threat should face the repercussions as well.
I haven't been in contact with them for some time, but I have acquaintances (Og knows, not friends) on the fringes of the militia movement; and from them I've learned that the highest possible government official is the duly instituted* county sheriff. So the state police/troopers/whatever don't have any particular standing. In fact, since posse comitatus makes the militia an auxiliary of the aforementioned county sheriff, they have more standing than the so-called state "officials."

If pressed for a rationale, they'll say that since the Constitution wasn't properly ratified, the Articles of Confederation still apply. Or maybe that the AOC ceased to be in effect when the Constitution was(n't) ratified. And just typing that made my head hurt.

"Duly instituted" = "Agrees with me."
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Old 06-24-2019, 08:43 PM
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The Constitution wasn't properly ratified? That's a new one to me. So, the last ~250 years of American history has been one big charade? Quite the procedure error.
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Old 06-24-2019, 09:06 PM
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Is the objection to the Republicans playing hide and seek (which Democrats have done before,) or to the militia protecting the Republican legislators (which, to my knowledge, Democrats have not done?)
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Old 06-24-2019, 09:23 PM
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Is the objection to the Republicans playing hide and seek (which Democrats have done before,) or to the militia protecting the Republican legislators (which, to my knowledge, Democrats have not done?)
More the militia thing. I really dislike the GOP leaving the state, but both sides do that. However joining an armed terrorist group and threatening to kill cops is a new low.

Society really needs to be honest about the risk white nationalists pose to our democracy.
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Old 06-24-2019, 09:29 PM
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The Constitution wasn't properly ratified? That's a new one to me. So, the last ~250 years of American history has been one big charade? Quite the procedure error.
I don't think I'd heard that one before. I remember Irwin Schiff and others of his ilk arguing that the 16th wasn't properly ratified and so taxes were illegal, tho.

ETA: Why do I remember? Because he had a huge freaking billboard right over his shop on Sahara for years. I think it's a weed store now.

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Old 06-24-2019, 09:30 PM
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I am not a conservative but I think it's because many feel they are the superior, authentic, appointed by God people and everyone else is an interloper. And now they have to live in a society run by people they consider inferior, inauthentic outsiders. Climate change isn't the issue, these same senators were threatening to walk out over bills on vaccination and gun control.

White militia groups have a lot on common with Muslim extremist groups. It's the same mentality at root just expressed in different cultures. A group of fundamentalist extremists who think Dog is on their side are trying to protect their own status in a rapidly changing world are enraged that people they consider inauthentic inferiors are invading 'their' society and calling the shots.
Reminds me a little of a Mormon acquaintance. Not that everyone is completely defined by their faith mind you, but this one individual completely refuses to engage the climate change issue. She thinks it is not human-caused, but that is the end of it. Her ex husband says, and so the discussion is over and she's going to remain snippy for months, maybe forever.

But! MY ex works for NOAA. I have friends who are literally scientists. I think these types are amused by hanging around with dumb guys like me. Anyway, lady, I would really like to see the evidence behind your position. If I can't make heads or tails of it, I know people who can!

Nope. Nada. She'd rather discuss ungrateful blacks kneeling on football fields, I got an earful of that. Or Moses' snake-staff, she'll discuss that. But not climate change. And she does it in a condescending way.

I am only speculating that the Oregon militia legislators are similar to this Mormon I know. The clinging to a position they can't/won't defend seems similar though. At a certain point, and definitely by the time the subject is being addressed in the legislature, you gotta put up or shut up. Let the people see the reasons and decide for themselves. If you can't convince them, you don't get to force a wrong/unpopular decision onto everyone.

These legislators should be in Portland explaining their views, not palling around with gunmen in Idaho. I get it that Dems have made moves like this, but the Wisconsin union thing came out of the blue and was very unpopular, so there was some actual representin' going on in the face of political hackery. All sane people think so
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Old 06-24-2019, 11:09 PM
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The Constitution wasn't properly ratified? That's a new one to me. So, the last ~250 years of American history has been one big charade? Quite the procedure error.


That's a pretty common Sovereign Citizen argument, and there's a lot of overlap between the SovCits and the militia movement.

Go ahead and Google it, if you're keen to waste a few hours and not a few brain cells.
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Old 06-24-2019, 11:26 PM
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Is the objection to the Republicans playing hide and seek (which Democrats have done before,) or to the militia protecting the Republican legislators (which, to my knowledge, Democrats have not done?)
A senator is threatening to kill state troopers.

You don't think that's worth an objection or two? Or do we need some more "both sides do it!"
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Old 06-24-2019, 11:36 PM
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The problem is, Oregon (and Washington) are literally divided in half: To the west are the "libruls," to the east are the "militias." It is a very sharp divide. The people to the east are Trump supporters in far greater numbers than in the west.
(bolding mine)

Say what?
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Old 06-24-2019, 11:41 PM
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(bolding mine)

Say what?
You've misunderstood my point. I didn't say there were more of them. I said they supported Trump in far greater numbers than in the west.

I can understand why you were confused by the inartful way I said it, though.
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Old 06-24-2019, 11:43 PM
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Glad someone started a thread on this. I do not understand the motives of these right wingers at all.

Oregon was going to pass cap and trade. The right freaked out because, from what I have read, this policy would according to them raise expenses on businesses and more generally for energy/fuel.

Don't they see there is more to it than that? Climate change is real- are they math denialists? Incapable of following the evidence that points toward climate change? Ready to take the world on a Thelma and Louise cliff drive rather than face reality? Unable to grasp that climate change will result in more of the refugees they hate, and far larger expenses than cap and trade will cause?

That is kind of what it looks like to me, but I doubt those are right. Is there some deep rooted conspiracy theory at work? Is there a huge economic disparity between the two halves of the state? Lead in the water?

I truly don't understand what people are so afraid of that the Law n Order Republicans are willing to flee and threaten to shoot cops. What's the bugaboo here?
Or they make 45g's a year as an owner operator of a log truck and pretty much everything has been against them for the last 50 years. Spotted Owl's, Gas prices, the forests burning. Every time some politition talks It's bullshit. Cap and trade disproportionately affects rural people who also happen to be right wing but that's secondary. Cap and trade, as oregon sees it, disproportionately affects transportation costs, benifitting city polluters, and negatively affecting rural communities.
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Old 06-25-2019, 02:42 AM
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The U.S. Senate can abolish the filibuster rule with a 51% vote. I'm not sure if we ever got a clear consensus to the question: Can this rule change be made at any time, or only on the opening day of a session?

How about the Oregon House? Can they abolish their quorum rule with a 51% vote? Or is it written into the State Constitution?
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Old 06-25-2019, 06:25 AM
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As an outsider, I would ask: Isn't it up to the people of Oregon, the voters? If they share your revulsion, they should vote them out at the first opportunity. Or has gerrymandering made that a naive hope?
How is this a reasonable contribution to a conversation about worrisome political and social developments anywhere? Yes, I’m some technical sense, decisions are up to voters in a jurisdiction. But that isn’t really relevant when we are trying to understand a situation and it’s implications and discussing opinions regarding the best course of action. Things like this affect everyone, regardless of what side of a border you live on.
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Old 06-25-2019, 09:00 AM
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When politicians take political positions you disagree with, the solution is to vote them out. When politicians threaten to murder the police, the solution is to arrest them and throw them in jail for a very long time.
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Old 06-25-2019, 09:17 AM
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Isn't this report conflating two different things? The threat mouthing off of a legislator; and the Oregon State Police taking as a threat the announcement that some right-wing groups would participate in a protest march at the capitol? From what I'm reading, it was the state police that shut down the capitol, rather than "militias".

ETA: at some point shouldn't it be questioned whether a threat exists solely in the mind of the person feeling threatened? Like an old white woman calling the police because two "gang members" (black males) moved into the house next door?

Last edited by Lumpy; 06-25-2019 at 09:21 AM.
  #39  
Old 06-25-2019, 09:59 AM
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ETA: at some point shouldn't it be questioned whether a threat exists solely in the mind of the person feeling threatened? Like an old white woman calling the police because two "gang members" (black males) moved into the house next door?
Ok, threat established...

Quote:
In Idaho, where some of the lawmakers have supposedly fled, the state’s 3 Percenters group was similarly willing to defend the Republicans as well, posting threatening memes on its Facebook page. “This is what the start of a civil war looks like,” the group wrote in one post.
  #40  
Old 06-25-2019, 10:02 AM
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Glad someone started a thread on this. I do not understand the motives of these right wingers at all.

Oregon was going to pass cap and trade. The right freaked out because, from what I have read, this policy would according to them raise expenses on businesses and more generally for energy/fuel.

Don't they see there is more to it than that? Climate change is real- are they math denialists? Incapable of following the evidence that points toward climate change? Ready to take the world on a Thelma and Louise cliff drive rather than face reality? Unable to grasp that climate change will result in more of the refugees they hate, and far larger expenses than cap and trade will cause?

That is kind of what it looks like to me, but I doubt those are right. Is there some deep rooted conspiracy theory at work? Is there a huge economic disparity between the two halves of the state? Lead in the water?

I truly don't understand what people are so afraid of that the Law n Order Republicans are willing to flee and threaten to shoot cops. What's the bugaboo here?

1. Some people genuinely believe that climate change is a hoax.
2. Some people know climate change is real, but nonetheless don't want to suffer penalties in forms of increased taxes or expenses, even if those would fight climate change.
3. Some people don't want the opposing party to score a political victory.
  #41  
Old 06-25-2019, 10:14 AM
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You've misunderstood my point. I didn't say there were more of them. I said they supported Trump in far greater numbers than in the west.

I can understand why you were confused by the inartful way I said it, though.
Ah, got it. And no argument there.
  #42  
Old 06-25-2019, 10:16 AM
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Does anyone have any specifics about the "possible militia threat" to the Oregon State Capitol? The article only says:

Quote:
Oregon State Police, in a statement, said it has been “monitoring information throughout the day that indicates the safety of legislators, staff and citizen visitors could be compromised if certain threatened behaviors were realized.”
What are the "certain threatened behaviors"? And how were the threats communicated? By whom?

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 06-25-2019 at 10:20 AM.
  #43  
Old 06-25-2019, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Try2B Comprehensive View Post
The Constitution wasn't properly ratified? That's a new one to me. So, the last ~250 years of American history has been one big charade? Quite the procedure error.
That's a pretty common Sovereign Citizen argument, and there's a lot of overlap between the SovCits and the militia movement.

Go ahead and Google it, if you're keen to waste a few hours and not a few brain cells.
There appear to be two schools of "thought" on the subject. Both hold that the Constitution was never ratified, making the current Federal system illegal; where they differ is that one holds that the Articles of Confederation are still in force, while the other holds that the Constitutional Convention voided them. In any event, what we have is a collection of "Sovereign States" which either are or are not loosely associated. So a Freeman on the Land is perfectly justified in claiming that he is a "citizen of [insert State name here] but not of the United States".

What follows, at least to some of the more radical Militia types, is a paradox which requires an Orwellian level of doublethink to reconcile: that since the States are governed by constitutions patterned after the (nonexistent) Federal constitution, the States themselves do not really exist. Hence the idea that the county (parish/borough/township) is the highest government entity. And the headache.

(The above is based on my recollection of a well-lubricated, and occasionally heated, "discussion" in rural Flathead County, Montana, where the native population of whackadoodles had been augmented — if that's the right word — by refugees from the Aryan Nations.)

(And apologies for perpetuating any highjack. But a little insight into the SovCit/Militia "mind"set may be helpful.)
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  #44  
Old 06-25-2019, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
1. Some people genuinely believe that climate change is a hoax.
2. Some people know climate change is real, but nonetheless don't want to suffer penalties in forms of increased taxes or expenses, even if those would fight climate change.
3. Some people don't want the opposing party to score a political victory.
Personally, I don't think it's about climate change.
Imagine if a black mayor was put in charge of a rural town in the deep south. No matter what he recommended, the people would oppose him because they don't consider him fit to lead.

The gop in Oregon were threatening to leave over vaccination bills and gun control bills before leaving over a climate change bill. The bill in question isn't the issue, the issue is that they consider anyone who isn't them unqualified to lead and they view their authority as invalid.

If it weren't a climate change bill it would've been something else.
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  #45  
Old 06-25-2019, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Lumpy View Post
Isn't this report conflating two different things? The threat mouthing off of a legislator; and the Oregon State Police taking as a threat the announcement that some right-wing groups would participate in a protest march at the capitol? From what I'm reading, it was the state police that shut down the capitol, rather than "militias".

ETA: at some point shouldn't it be questioned whether a threat exists solely in the mind of the person feeling threatened? Like an old white woman calling the police because two "gang members" (black males) moved into the house next door?
ETA: my response is dealing solely with the"nothing off" by the senator, not the capitol closing.

If the two black males in question threatened to shoot the old lady if she looked at them funny, yeah.

The senator said if police came after him, send heavily armed bachelors. Go ahead and tell a cop that. Walk up to him, tell him hey I'm going home now, and if you follow me, you best come heavily armed!

Report back.

Last edited by raventhief; 06-25-2019 at 07:44 PM.
  #46  
Old 06-25-2019, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by raventhief View Post
ETA: my response is dealing solely with the"nothing off" by the senator, not the capitol closing.

If the two black males in question threatened to shoot the old lady if she looked at them funny, yeah.

The senator said if police came after him, send heavily armed bachelors. Go ahead and tell a cop that. Walk up to him, tell him hey I'm going home now, and if you follow me, you best come heavily armed!

Report back.
Fine, the Oregon state district attorney should look into filing charges of making terroristic threats. But until something actually happens my money is on it being hot air.
  #47  
Old 06-26-2019, 06:26 AM
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Democrats caved.

https://www.oregonlive.com/politics/...l-is-dead.html

Quote:
“As the person who counts the votes, my personal sense is that the votes were not there,” Burdick told reporters Tuesday afternoon. "I was personally one of the ones who wanted this bill on the floor, because I wanted to raise my hand and say ‘yes.’ And we did not get that opportunity because they walked out.”
As usual, A. R. Moxon has a pretty insightful take on this.

Quote:

The Oregon GOP is, effectively, a terrorist organization.



Losing elections? Cheat the election.
Still lose? Break the election.
STILL lose? Break the government.
STILL lose? Threaten violence.

That’s how government is done in Oregon now.

When do we stop with this “both sides” nonsense?

It’s one side. Authoritarian terrorists.



Where in power, fascism.

Where out of power, terrorism.
We need to stop pretending this is okay. But nobody with power seems to have the balls to actually do something about it. It's really fucked up.
  #48  
Old 06-26-2019, 07:33 AM
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They didn't "cave"; they didn't have the votes.

I hope they reintroduce the bill the moment the GOP comes back. Make them do it again, and again. Force them to shut down services. See how long everyone else in the state tolerates it -- not long, I'd imagine.
  #49  
Old 06-26-2019, 08:04 AM
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The idea that a governor can send out goons to capture legislators is All-Cool-Democracy, but resisting said goons is not to be applauded is a bit backwards for me.* That said, I’d rather these idiots squabble like this than join together to bilk the hapless taxpayer. I wonder what the response would be if say the governor of Alabama send out his goons to round up Dem legislators for a vote on abortion.


*yes I understand it is in the law to allow governor goon squads. Believe it or not people disagree with old laws allowing goon squads sometimes.
  #50  
Old 06-26-2019, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
When politicians take political positions you disagree with, the solution is to vote them out. When politicians threaten to murder the police, the solution is to arrest them and throw them in jail for a very long time.
What about when governors threaten to kidnap legislators?
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