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  #51  
Old 07-09-2019, 12:31 PM
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"Lilly white" areas tend to go Republican. Where people are mixed together in a multicultural environment, those areas tend to go Democratic.
Isn't Vermont, one of the whitest states in America, a solidly Democratic state?


Contrast that with Texas, too, which is around 40% Hispanic but still a red state.
  #52  
Old 07-09-2019, 12:40 PM
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... Vermont is almost all white but they are one of the most left leaning states out there. ...
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
Isn't Vermont, one of the whitest states in America, a solidly Democratic state?
...
I've heard that. And I also said "tend to".

Last edited by bobot; 07-09-2019 at 12:40 PM.
  #53  
Old 07-09-2019, 01:06 PM
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Here is a better example of spinelessness.

In 2016 Obama wanted McConnell to be bipartisan and say that the Russians were hacking our election. McConnell obviously said no, but on top of that he told Obama 'if you talk about this, we will make fun of you and call you names'.

Obama bowed his head and did whatever McConnell told him to do, because he was scared of being called names and being made fun of by republicans.

Fast forward to three years later and the Mueller report is out. What is one of the major talking points of the GOP? "Why didn't Obama stop this". Obama did what McConnell told him to do because he was afraid of being made fun of, and now the GOP is making fun of him anyway for the thing he caved in over. Even Democrats blame McConnell, but Obama deserves a lot of the blame. Obama doesn't answer to McConnell. Would Trump bow his head and do whatever Chuck Schumer told him to do if Schumer said 'we will make fun of you unless you do what we say'? No he wouldn't.

Things like that are why the democrats are spineless.

Here is another example.

CT democrats are looking at health reform. One part of health reform is a public option which would drive down prices and drive up choices. It is supported by the majority of the public.

Cigna told the governor if they passed a public option, they would be mad. The very next day the democrats gave up. It took the democrats one day to give up on their public option plan because rich people said they'd be mad.

Republicans threaten to leave Oregon. Democrats promise to pull bills on vaccinations and gun control. Republicans leave anyway. Democrats then find they don't have the votes for a climate change bill despite a majority in congress.

Things like that are why the democrats are spineless. All it takes is someone threatening to be mad at them and they'll fold like a cheap suit. And the person threatening them will be mean to them anyway.

Obama did what McConnell told him to do because he was scared of being made fun of. And he got made fun of anyway. Its pathetic.
I think itís going to take something like what Gingrich did with the GOP in 1994 for the Democrats to overcome this problem. Fortunately weíre starting to see this happen with AOC and some of the other new Democratic representatives. It remains to be seen if AOC can be the Democratic version of 1994 Newt Gingrich, but Iím glad to see her trying.
  #54  
Old 07-09-2019, 03:18 PM
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During the Jim Crow era, we saw the Great Migration, understandably so. Today when migration is cheaper, easier, and more economically rewarding, we see no equivalent migration of blacks away from the South. Perhaps the issue is more complex than liberals in Lilly white america believe.
I don't know why people think this. I AM someone who moved from the south for economic opportunity. If I had kids, I couldn't have done it. I maxed out credit cards I'm still paying off 5 years later to be able to move. And we almost went belly up right as we moved. Its never easy, and if you are already "depressed economically" its no picnic to move. If people didn't "owe me big time" we wouldn't have made it. It got so bad we were looking at which shelters took married people.

I'm not trying to say you are stupid or anything, but this statement is one of the biggest stupid things I have seen on this board in a long time. Like, disrespectfully stupid. I am not calling you out personally, WF. I'm sure you are cool and all.
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  #55  
Old 07-09-2019, 03:21 PM
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Isn't Vermont, one of the whitest states in America, a solidly Democratic state?


Contrast that with Texas, too, which is around 40% Hispanic but still a red state.
Honestly, without gerrymandering, Texas should be purple. I lived there all my life until about 5 years ago. I remember the second Obama election was almost 50/50 popular vote. Thats population wise. Geographically, its a lot like Rick Perry said "Blueberries floating in tomato soup."

The vast majority of people live in the Dallas, Houston, Austin, and San Antonio metropolitan areas. But Texas is like, really really big, and there is a whole lot of nothin' that gets a whole lot of vote.
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  #56  
Old 07-09-2019, 03:22 PM
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Contrast that with Texas, too, which is around 40% Hispanic but still a red state.
While there are a surprising number of conservative Hispanics, I'm pretty sure that Texas' super-red status is more the product of egregious and rampant gerrymandering, not some sort of overall redness on the part of the populace.

The cities are VERY blue, and the countryside is VERY red, but the urban outnumbering of the rural vote is pretty much nullified by the way the districts are drawn.
  #57  
Old 07-09-2019, 04:33 PM
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Call me an idiot, but can y’all walk me through how gerrelymandering effects the general election? Does TX partition electoral college votes by district?
  #58  
Old 07-09-2019, 04:48 PM
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Call me an idiot, but can yíall walk me through how gerrelymandering effects the general election? Does TX partition electoral college votes by district?
TX assigns all electoral college votes to the winner of the popular vote in the state. In 2016, that was Donald Trump by about 10 pp (53 - 42 or so)

Gerrymandering comes in in the drawing of congressional boundaries - The 36 members of the House are split into 25 republicans and 11 democrats, giving an advantage to republicans.
  #59  
Old 07-09-2019, 04:50 PM
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Democrats have principles but no spine. Republicans have spine but no principles. That's just how it is.

What caused the GOP takeover in 2010 was Democrats' total unwillingness to push back against the lies that Republicans told about the ACA. "Death panels" put several state legislatures in the hands of Republicans just in time to reap the benefits of gerrymandering following the 2010 census. Obama himself was particularly inept at defending his own law, giving inane babble about red pills and blue pills. Add that to the nincompoops who had totally worthless cheapo health insurance and when they had to upgrade and pay more due to the ACA, whined "Waaaaah! Obama said if I like my insurance I could keep it!"
I don't really buy that Obama didn't attempt to defend his own bill. He tried desperately to do it, but was simply hit with a propaganda campaign that his still relatively infant presidency wasn't prepared for. The real problem, though, was that the bill promised...change. And change meant uncertainty. The Republicans figured out that they could capitalize on that uncertainty, and unfortunately, since most of the laws provisions didn't go into effect until sometime later, there was no way to prove to skeptical voters that the changes weren't going to be so bad. There's really not much Obama could have done differently. It's a miracle that the legislation passed at all.

I think progressives are fantasizing about having power that they just don't have. The wish they could Tea Party the right the same way the right Tea Partied them. Sorry, but that ain't gonna happen - not until there is a major financial catastrophe that convinces pretty much everyone who isn't living in some compound that the Republicans are corrupt as sin and that their version of capitalism doesn't work. I've been saying this for a while now and I'm more convinced of it by the day.
  #60  
Old 07-09-2019, 05:30 PM
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Biden, particularly, is just another Hillary with a dick (one presumes) and no backbone, no vision whatsoever, just a thirst for power and an eagerness to sacrifice all of his values to the highest bidder. Nasty shit, there.

When the Democratic Party become this way? Climate change... evade, evade. Top concerns, evade, evade... only the not-normally-Dems were willing to say "it's all fucked."

Why do you even need Republicans if the Dems are just willing to bend over and take it? When did they lose their vision for, well, absolutely anything at all?
When they refused to take the blame for losing to an Orange Reality Show Host.
  #61  
Old 07-09-2019, 05:37 PM
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Nice propaganda there, did it come from the kremlin or directly from trump?
The answer to the OP is "When the left embraced McCarthyism."
  #62  
Old 07-09-2019, 05:48 PM
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Back then, the Democrats were Republicans, and the Republicans were Democrats. Republican presidents who are thought of in high regard, such as Abraham Lincoln and Theodore Roosevelt were progressives and would have been Democrats in today's world. Possibly Eisenhower would too. All the great U.S. Presidents have been on the progressive rather than conservative side of politics. The best Republican/conservative president is therefore probably Ronald Reagan.
Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus and tried to lock up his political opponents. FDR built concentration camps for Japanese Americans.

Both went MUCH further than El Presidente will ever dream of.
  #63  
Old 07-09-2019, 05:49 PM
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AP News -- An argument on the SDMB caught fire earlier today. Investigators say that it caught fire because it was made entirely out of straw.

Film at eleven.
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  #64  
Old 07-09-2019, 05:53 PM
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AP News -- An argument on the SDMB caught fire earlier today. Investigators say that it caught fire because it was made entirely out of straw.

Film at eleven.
Horseshit. Had to be an inside job. Straw won't combust when all the oxygen has been sucked out of the room.
  #65  
Old 07-09-2019, 07:10 PM
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Honestly, without gerrymandering, Texas should be purple. I lived there all my life until about 5 years ago. I remember the second Obama election was almost 50/50 popular vote. Thats population wise. Geographically, its a lot like Rick Perry said "Blueberries floating in tomato soup."

The vast majority of people live in the Dallas, Houston, Austin, and San Antonio metropolitan areas. But Texas is like, really really big, and there is a whole lot of nothin' that gets a whole lot of vote.
Texas is moving to the left, albeit slowly.

2008 election
GOP - 4.5 million votes
Dem - 3.5 million votes

2012 election
GOP - 4.6 million votes
Dem - 3.3 million votes

2016 election
GOP - 4.7 million votes
Dem - 3.9 million votes


2018 senate election
GOP - 4.2 million votes
Dem - 4.0 million votes


So the democratic vote is growing much faster than the GOP vote, and the democratic candidate got more votes in a midterm in 2018 than Clinton did in 2016. Its possible the democratic candidate could get 4.5 million votes in 2020. If so, Texas may be a swing state by 2024.

A big issue in texas is latinos don't vote. Latinos and millennials need to be registered. I 'believe' Beto made this a priority.
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  #66  
Old 07-09-2019, 07:59 PM
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Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus and tried to lock up his political opponents. FDR built concentration camps for Japanese Americans.

Both went MUCH further than El Presidente will ever dream of.
Lincoln suspended habeas corpus during the American Civil War, and F.D. Roosevelt interned Japanese Americans in camps during World War II. You don't think that Donald Trump would "ever dream of" doing something similar - or worse - if he was president during a civil war or a world war?
  #67  
Old 07-09-2019, 08:51 PM
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"Folks, little Dale Sams here has a terrible disease. Political scientists call it Conservative Inappropriate Comparison Syndrome, but you know it as Whataboutism. It's too late for Dale, but others might be freed from this seeming incurable scourge if we act today. Give. Give your time, your money, and, especially, give your opinions to the Straight Dope. With your help we will soon post a thread titled "What about Whataboutism and when did it disappear?" It can't happen too soon."
  #68  
Old 07-09-2019, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
"Folks, little Dale Sams here has a terrible disease. Political scientists call it Conservative Inappropriate Comparison Syndrome, but you know it as Whataboutism. It's too late for Dale, but others might be freed from this seeming incurable scourge if we act today. Give. Give your time, your money, and, especially, give your opinions to the Straight Dope. With your help we will soon post a thread titled "What about Whataboutism and when did it disappear?" It can't happen too soon."
I'm not conservative. You might want to save your money and use it to get the stick out of your ass.

Also its not Whataboutism. The argument was that great presidents like Lincoln and FDR were 'progressive'.

Last edited by Dale Sams; 07-09-2019 at 10:04 PM.
  #69  
Old 07-09-2019, 10:08 PM
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Lincoln suspended habeas corpus during the American Civil War, and F.D. Roosevelt interned Japanese Americans in camps during World War II. You don't think that Donald Trump would "ever dream of" doing something similar - or worse - if he was president during a civil war or a world war?
Well since I didn't establish that condition....and he WONT be president during a civil war or an extended global war involving a 100 countries....
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Old 07-09-2019, 10:19 PM
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I'm not conservative. You might want to save your money and use it to get the stick out of your ass.

Also its not Whataboutism. The argument was that great presidents like Lincoln and FDR were 'progressive'.
And your comparison of emergency measures they took during actual wars to their progressive credentials was completely appropriate. Right?

Wrong. It's totally misleading nonsense, i.e., Whataboutism. It can't be defended.

As for whether you're a conservative or not... I'm not familiar with your posts, but the trope that the Republicans can't be bigots because they ended slavery is one that is found only in the writing of the most mindless right-wingers. Your dipping into ancient political history is appropriating (notice the cool use of English) their Whataboutism in ways too close to measure without micro-instruments. Keep it up and I'll keep calling it like it is.
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Old 07-09-2019, 10:51 PM
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And your comparison of emergency measures they took during actual wars to their progressive credentials was completely appropriate. Right?

Wrong. It's totally misleading nonsense, i.e., Whataboutism. It can't be defended.

As for whether you're a conservative or not... I'm not familiar with your posts, but the trope that the Republicans can't be bigots because they ended slavery is one that is found only in the writing of the most mindless right-wingers. Your dipping into ancient political history is appropriating (notice the cool use of English) their Whataboutism in ways too close to measure without micro-instruments. Keep it up and I'll keep calling it like it is.
Thats a hell of a strawman you've built. And you're not the first LINO ive met who defended concentration camps.
  #72  
Old 07-09-2019, 11:25 PM
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Moderating


Dale Sams and Exapno Mapcase and anyone else who want to jump in:

DIAL IT BACK.

Stick to a discussion of the topic of the thread and knock off the personal swipes.

[ /Moderating ]
  #73  
Old 07-10-2019, 12:18 AM
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Dale Sams and Exapno Mapcase and anyone else who want to jump in:

DIAL IT BACK.

Stick to a discussion of the topic of the thread and knock off the personal swipes.

[ /Moderating ]
Sorry Expano.

Just when I had you in the crushing grip of reason.

Last edited by Dale Sams; 07-10-2019 at 12:18 AM.
  #74  
Old 07-10-2019, 08:54 AM
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TX assigns all electoral college votes to the winner of the popular vote in the state. In 2016, that was Donald Trump by about 10 pp (53 - 42 or so)

Gerrymandering comes in in the drawing of congressional boundaries - The 36 members of the House are split into 25 republicans and 11 democrats, giving an advantage to republicans.
They also do strange stuff like gerrymander urban/suburban areas that are essentially purple in with overwhelmingly red rural areas, so that overall, the vote runs like 55% Republican.

They also do stuff like gerrymander predominantly Democratic areas such that they're like 99% Democrat.

Do enough of that, and you end up with very, very few Democrat-won districts, even though the state is in reality, a purple color

Last edited by bump; 07-10-2019 at 08:54 AM.
  #75  
Old 07-10-2019, 10:33 AM
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I need to put on the record that I have never used the term "concentration camps" to refer to immigrant camps. In fact, I don't believe I've ever posted on the subject in any terms whatsoever. I'm baffled as to what this is referring to. I certainly have never defended concentration camps in any other context from any time in history, either. An apology for this would be nice.

Last edited by Exapno Mapcase; 07-10-2019 at 10:35 AM.
  #76  
Old 07-10-2019, 11:27 AM
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Well since I didn't establish that condition....and he WONT be president during a civil war or an extended global war involving a 100 countries....
Could you answer these questions, please:

- Do you think Lincoln would have suspended habeas corpus if America had not been in a state of civil war?

- Do you think F.D.R. would have interned Japanese Americans in camps if the U.S. had not been fighting in a world war?

- Why do you think Trump wouldn't "ever dream of" doing something like suspending habeas corpus, or interning people, if the U.S. were in a civil war or world war?

- Why do you think Trump "WONT" [sic], or will ever be, in a civil war or world war? While I don't think these things are likely, I'm interested to know why you think it would be impossible for these things to happen.
  #77  
Old 07-13-2019, 04:29 PM
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There was an op-ed piece in yesterday's Times about how congressmen don't respond to the wishes of their constituents. Later on it said they don't respond to the wishes of their voters. The second sentence is correct, but the first is wrong. For politicians these days after Citizens United the voters are not the same as constituents. For pols these days their true constituents are the people--especially lobbyists--who donate to their reelections.

And none dare call it bribery.
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