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  #51  
Old 07-03-2019, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by ThelmaLou View Post
I truly don't understand why people are claiming not to see this clear deterioration in his demeanor, speech, and affect.
If you don't remember him being any other way (and most probably don't), then it isn't deterioration, just the stir-shit-up personality they voted for.
  #52  
Old 07-03-2019, 03:44 PM
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If you don't remember him being any other way (and most probably don't), then it isn't deterioration, just the stir-shit-up personality they voted for.
Even if you never saw him before in your life, it's obvious that something is wrong with his speech and comprehension.
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  #53  
Old 07-05-2019, 01:18 AM
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In today's speech he said (supposedly about the revolutionary war):

"Our army manned the air, it rammed the ramparts, it took over the airports, it did everything it had to do, and at Fort McHenry, under the rockets’ red glare, it had nothing but victory.”

That doesn't seem to be the output of an entirely healthy mind.
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  #54  
Old 07-05-2019, 03:34 AM
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I suppose most people his age are off their game compared to decades ago.
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  #55  
Old 07-05-2019, 06:44 AM
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I suppose most people his age are off their game compared to decades ago.
He is in his early seventies. I know people that age, they don't act like this. Something else is wrong.
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  #56  
Old 07-05-2019, 07:22 AM
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I think a lot of how you act in your seventies depends on how you lived your first 70 years. If you spent a fair amount of time reading, followed the news from fair sources, and took responsibility for your own actions your entire life there's a good chance you won't look like an old fool in your seventies.
  #57  
Old 07-05-2019, 07:30 AM
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With the airports things, there are only three possibilities:

1 - Trump is really spectacularly uninformed.
2 - Trump is not mentally well.
3 - Trump is both.

Based on all of the evidence, I'd had to vote #3 personally. It is already obvious that Trump has some kind of narcissistic personality disorder. I don't think it is much of a stretch to imagine that his mental faculties are in serious decline.
  #58  
Old 07-05-2019, 07:39 AM
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I think it's a red flag in the linked OP's analysis that he sees a bulge in the back of Trump's jacket, thinks it might be a back brace, and then thinks a back brace is further proof of a neurological problem.

Even though Trump is a bit of an absentee president, he still has a schedule that would be crazy for any of the 70 yr olds that I know. He also doesn't get to pick and choose when he's going to be interviewed or what the subjects he gets questioned on as much as when he was granting interviews in his 50s.
  #59  
Old 07-05-2019, 07:41 AM
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His latest statement:
President Trump lamented the state of American cities in an interview Monday night, describing homelessness as "a phenomena that started two years ago" that is causing public health hazards.
Is this man mentally competent enough to run a country?
Far be it from me to actually defend Trump, but that isn't what he said. He talked about increased amount of filth. He's talking about garbage and trash piling up. He talks about it being a health hazard for policemen on the beat. He says it's hell for the people that live there. At no point in the interview did he mention homelessness.

He says that it wasn't like this three years ago. I don't know if that's true or not, but it's plausible it's got noticeably worse in that period.

"Homelessness started two years ago" is something he didn't say.
  #60  
Old 07-05-2019, 08:31 AM
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I suppose most people his age are off their game compared to decades ago.
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He is in his early seventies. I know people that age, they don't act like this. Something else is wrong.
Excuse me very much! Some of us Dopers are close to him in age (though not, thank God, close in any other way) and we can still use bigly words correctly and know shit. Lots of shit. My mother at age 90 was more coherent, lucid, and well-informed that Donnie. Of course, she read voraciously her whole life.
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  #61  
Old 07-05-2019, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Evil Economist View Post
In today's speech he said (supposedly about the revolutionary war):

"Our army manned the air, it rammed the ramparts, it took over the airports, it did everything it had to do, and at Fort McHenry, under the rockets’ red glare, it had nothing but victory.”

That doesn't seem to be the output of an entirely healthy mind.
The airport and Fort McHenry parts are funny, sure, but does he really think the Continental Army won all of the battles during the Revolutionary War?
  #62  
Old 07-05-2019, 02:30 PM
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Dis somebody write the speech for him?
  #63  
Old 07-05-2019, 02:35 PM
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Dis somebody write the speech for him?
He is claiming that the rain knocked out the teleprompter at that time, forcing him to wing it. I don't know if an actual transcript of the speech is available.
  #64  
Old 07-05-2019, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Evil Economist View Post
In today's speech he said (supposedly about the revolutionary war):



"Our army manned the air, it rammed the ramparts, it took over the airports, it did everything it had to do, and at Fort McHenry, under the rockets’ red glare, it had nothing but victory.”



That doesn't seem to be the output of an entirely healthy mind.
.....the man thinks that "ramparts" are literally "the parts that are to be rammed."

We're doomed.
  #65  
Old 07-05-2019, 04:41 PM
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And what about the Continental Army being named for Washington? What was that supposed to be about?
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  #66  
Old 07-05-2019, 04:47 PM
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A LOT of verbal speech -- especially "off the cuff" remarks -- translates very poorly to the page. Many people have a certain degree of stream-of-consciousness quality to extemporaneous speech that sounds ok when you hear it, but looks downright terrible when you read a transcript.
Yeah... I mean, it's possible the man has a few screws loose. Sometimes I think I hear hints of that. But of all the examples given in this thread, he sounds like he always does... a fifth-grader giving a book report without having read the book, running out the clock by spewing word salad.

That kind of verbiage is terrible, and it looks worse when transcribed. But the only disorder it betrays is the attitude that this is acceptable behavior.
  #67  
Old 07-05-2019, 04:48 PM
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He is claiming that the rain knocked out the teleprompter at that time, forcing him to wing it. I don't know if an actual transcript of the speech is available.
It is an strange excuse. Even if true, then who in a moment of winging it says the Continental Army took over the airports. It really doesn't make his case any better. One might argue it makes it worse, if he had said the teleprompter had it and he reflexively read it, it would still be funny but much better.
  #68  
Old 07-05-2019, 04:51 PM
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And what about the Continental Army being named for Washington? What was that supposed to be about?
It was almost certainly supposed to be something like Washington being named Commander-in-Chief of the Continental Army.

That sentence construction apparently went completely over Trump's head, and he changed it to "named for."
  #69  
Old 07-05-2019, 05:07 PM
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He also doesn't get to pick and choose when he's going to be interviewed or what the subjects he gets questioned on as much as when he was granting interviews in his 50s.
Huh? What do you mean he doesn't get to pick and choose? Who's telling the POTUS what to do?
  #70  
Old 07-05-2019, 05:08 PM
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"Homelessness started two years ago" is something he didn't say.
Fake news; we all heard it.
  #71  
Old 07-05-2019, 05:10 PM
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He is claiming that the rain knocked out the teleprompter at that time, forcing him to wing it. I don't know if an actual transcript of the speech is available.
As a stagehand, I can tell you that the likelihood of the teleprompter being knocked out by rain or anything else was about .0001%.
  #72  
Old 07-05-2019, 05:26 PM
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Huh? What do you mean he doesn't get to pick and choose? Who's telling the POTUS what to do?

Do you think Trump would do anything besides golf and political rallies if it was only up to him?
  #73  
Old 07-05-2019, 05:40 PM
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Do you think Trump would do anything besides golf and political rallies if it was only up to him?
Yes. I think he already does. I think your insistence that Trump regularly does anything he doesn't want to because someone else told him to is patently absurd and has no evidence to back it up.
  #74  
Old 07-05-2019, 05:52 PM
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People yell questions when he's getting in a plane or crossing his lawn. He regularly has joint press conferences with foreign heads of state. He gets asked off topic questions when he thinks he's just doing a fun little publicity stunt. If you think this is all Trump's choice, rather than requirements of the job, whatever. Not worth arguing about.

Last edited by CarnalK; 07-05-2019 at 05:53 PM.
  #75  
Old 07-05-2019, 08:24 PM
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I truly don't understand why people are claiming not to see this clear deterioration in his demeanor, speech, and affect. If your parent displayed this behavior, you'd pack them off to a neurologist in a New York minute.
Yup. My Mom is 90. Oh, she has a bit of short term memory difficulty. So do I. But she speaks clearly and succinctly and has no problem remembering the important stuff and starting a sentence that actually ends in a point.

Trump starts with "I" and then winds around lampposts that are clearly out of kerosene and ends with "few people know this".

When I run into elderly folks that do the same, it's fine to just nod and smile. Not so much when it's the President of the United States
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  #76  
Old 07-06-2019, 08:16 AM
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It is an strange excuse. Even if true, then who in a moment of winging it says the Continental Army took over the airports. It really doesn't make his case any better. One might argue it makes it worse, if he had said the teleprompter had it and he reflexively read it, it would still be funny but much better.
I cannot find cites for this airport stuff.
  #77  
Old 07-06-2019, 08:52 AM
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I cannot find cites for this airport stuff.
Here's the whole speech.

See from 38:20 to 39:15
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Old 07-06-2019, 09:26 AM
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Thanks, Peter Morris.
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Old 07-06-2019, 09:28 AM
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Christ, he did say that airports were captured.
  #80  
Old 07-06-2019, 10:53 AM
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Christ, he did say that airports were captured.
His 'mind' was probably thinking about the military flyovers. All done for his greatness. And that surely has something to do with airports. So he made that connection, and that's what snapped out of his mouth.

War means airplanes, airplanes mean airports. We had a revolution/war, so airplanes and airports must have been involved.

Not that I want to try to figure out what he is 'thinking'. Doubt that's possible. There is no thought other than "how can I make myself look good". Words and policy don't matter. History, and the future doesn't matter. Never has to him. He can't grasp anything but the present, and he has a very, very light hold on that.
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  #81  
Old 07-06-2019, 11:14 AM
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I think a lot of how you act in your seventies depends on how you lived your first 70 years. If you spent a fair amount of time reading, followed the news from fair sources, and took responsibility for your own actions your entire life there's a good chance you won't look like an old fool in your seventies.
I agree, but again just being ignorant doesn't explain all of Trump's behavior. It doesn't explain why he can't keep a train of thought, why he can't form complex sentences, why his grammar is getting all screwed up, why he seems to have trouble remembering people's names, why he forgets why he is in a room after giving a speech, why he can't seem to control his emotions, why he gets lost walking from his plane to his limo.

Trump is an idiot, but he likely also has a narcissitic personality disorder and dementia on top of it.
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Last edited by Wesley Clark; 07-06-2019 at 11:16 AM.
  #82  
Old 07-06-2019, 12:30 PM
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...Trump is an idiot, but he likely also has a narcissitic personality disorder and dementia on top of it.
Yep. Obvious to most. I disagree with the likely in your post. He has never given a shit about anyone but himself.

All the time Putin and Kim just laugh and laugh and laugh. What a show he's putting on for them.
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  #83  
Old 07-06-2019, 08:31 PM
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Christ, he did say that airports were captured.
By way of comparison, could someone please post all the stupid shit that George W. Bush said? (Or his father... or Reagan?)
  #84  
Old 07-06-2019, 09:26 PM
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By way of comparison, could someone please post all the stupid shit that George W. Bush said? (Or his father... or Reagan?)
Reagan had dementia.

I didn't like Bush jr and he was rightfully portrayed as an idiot, but theres a difference between being an idiot vs being an idiot who also has dementia.
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  #85  
Old 07-06-2019, 11:40 PM
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Trump has always been a staggeringly ignorant crook. But he used to be able to keep his emotions in check and put together sentences of reasonable complexity. Even in the 2016 campaign, he could get through a debate fairly coherently, if dishonestly. But now, he's just screaming disjointed words and phrases at whoever's within earshot. And his increasingly rigid expression and movement don't look typical for a healthy 73 year old.

To me, his marked decline in the past two years tips the scales from "idiot con man in over his head" to "dementia patient". And, although that one picture of him and Ivanka may not prove anything by itself, I do think it's likely that Ivanka is glued to his side either to be his caregiver or because she's trying to take advantage of his diminished mental abilities for her own purposes.

As to the comparison with GWB: Bush was ignorant and lazy and out of his depth, but he never got in front of a crowd or called Fox News and shouted random sentence fragments at them until everyone was embarrassed for him. Reagan was getting there toward the end, but as noted, he had dementia.
  #86  
Old 07-08-2019, 06:35 PM
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He believes that Ivanka is glued to his side because she's his caregiver, trying futilely to keep his dementia hidden. Here's a picture Joseph uses to illustrate the point: https://twitter.com/TomJChicago/stat...34081778364416. Trump's jutting tongue and Ivanka's pained expression are jarring.
You can make anyone look crazy if you catch them "freeze-frame" with a camera. And it's all subjective. To me, Ivanka doesn't looked "pained" in the least, but instead mildly amused at something. This pic is evidence of nothing regarding Trump's neurological health.
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Old 07-08-2019, 06:40 PM
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Trump's response when asked if he agreed with Putin that Western liberal democracy is obsolete:



I mean... does this sound like a neurologically healthy human being?
Yeah, pretty much. And it sounds to me like an ignorant buffoon trying desperately to cover up the fact that he has absolutely no idea how to answer the question, the subject of which he is intimately aware that he knows nothing about. Again, not evidence of neurologically poor health.

ETA: Note how I mangled that last part of the second sentence? And I assure you, I am in perfect neurological health.

Last edited by Fiddle Peghead; 07-08-2019 at 06:41 PM.
  #88  
Old 07-08-2019, 06:49 PM
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Here is an interview trump did with tim russert in 1999. I think he was 53.

The cognitive decline from then to now is impossible to ignore. Trump was cogent, coherent and used complex sentences in his 50s. His control over his emotions was much stronger. His comprehension of politics and global affairs was far stronger.

https://youtu.be/G_IG07XhT3k

Personally I think trump has both dementia and a narcissistic disorder. We need legitimate, independent medical evaluations.

By comparison to the video of him in his 50s, here is a video of modern trump appearing to get lost walking from air force one to his limo.

https://youtu.be/sF5TGQgQJeA
What the hell, one more: I walk down stairs more guardedly than Trump does, and I'm pretty much, or at least close to, the ideal weight for my height, and am almost 56 years old, way younger than Trump. I do it because I don't want to bust my ass and break my hip. I'd say Trump does it for the same reasons, and because he knows if he falls or slips, he will never hear the end of it, and not because of any neurological difficulties.

Last edited by Fiddle Peghead; 07-08-2019 at 06:50 PM. Reason: typo
  #89  
Old 07-08-2019, 07:11 PM
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...Personally I think trump has both dementia and a narcissistic disorder. We need legitimate, independent medical evaluations...
I think this is a fair assessment. I don't see Pence and the Cabinet doing anything about it though, unless Trump declines so much it's impossible to cover up and forces their hands. I just don't know where that line is.
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Old 07-08-2019, 07:18 PM
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Dis somebody write the speech for him?
Of course.

And I'm sure the first time he read it was the only time.
  #91  
Old 07-08-2019, 07:23 PM
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Trump has always been a staggeringly ignorant crook. But he used to be able to keep his emotions in check and put together sentences of reasonable complexity. Even in the 2016 campaign, he could get through a debate fairly coherently, if dishonestly. But now, he's just screaming disjointed words and phrases at whoever's within earshot. And his increasingly rigid expression and movement don't look typical for a healthy 73 year old.

To me, his marked decline in the past two years tips the scales from "idiot con man in over his head" to "dementia patient". And, although that one picture of him and Ivanka may not prove anything by itself, I do think it's likely that Ivanka is glued to his side either to be his caregiver or because she's trying to take advantage of his diminished mental abilities for her own purposes.

As to the comparison with GWB: Bush was ignorant and lazy and out of his depth, but he never got in front of a crowd or called Fox News and shouted random sentence fragments at them until everyone was embarrassed for him. Reagan was getting there toward the end, but as noted, he had dementia.
To me, the pampered narcissism Trump has experienced most of his adult life explains 90% of it. The fluff interviews he had in the 80's and 90's provide little evidence of cognitive stability to me, the self-absorption still shines through, and almost always with no push-back from the interviewer. In fact, on these shows Trump was usually held up as some kind of renaissance man.

Now, his every word and behavior are under scrutiny for the whole world to see, and his mental illness can no longer be hidden, even from skeptics, any longer
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Old 07-08-2019, 07:38 PM
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I'm going to vote for cognitive dissonance. Even back when he was a moderate Republican aka RINO he was a bully in his business dealings. Look at the Apprentice he only appreciated those who either kissed his ass or were themselves bullies. Now as President he can't bully Pelosi into submission, or the Press, or Kim Jun Un, or Xi Jinping et alii and I think he goes through his day not understanding why things are not going as he demands they should. So yes he is confused but not for neurological reasons.
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Old 07-08-2019, 07:43 PM
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Guys, it's not that hard to figure out. "Ramparts" was on the teleprompter. He's behind bulletproof glass, rain is beading on the panes, so probably on the screen too, and he's got 70 year old eyes. It says "manned the ramparts." He said "manned the air [whoops, I mean] rammed [ah fuck, it says ramparts] the ramparts." Does it make sense? No. Does it make him look stupid? Yes. Is it hard to figure out what happened? No.
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Old 07-08-2019, 08:13 PM
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Guys, it's not that hard to figure out. "Ramparts" was on the teleprompter. He's behind bulletproof glass, rain is beading on the panes, so probably on the screen too, and he's got 70 year old eyes. It says "manned the ramparts." He said "manned the air [whoops, I mean] rammed [ah fuck, it says ramparts] the ramparts." Does it make sense? No. Does it make him look stupid? Yes. Is it hard to figure out what happened? No.
If the CEO of my company did anything like this, the board would replace him so fast, his head would spin. He'd be going to spend time with his family before the weekend was over.
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Old 07-08-2019, 08:56 PM
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Guys, it's not that hard to figure out. "Ramparts" was on the teleprompter. He's behind bulletproof glass, rain is beading on the panes, so probably on the screen too, and he's got 70 year old eyes. It says "manned the ramparts." He said "manned the air [whoops, I mean] rammed [ah fuck, it says ramparts] the ramparts." Does it make sense? No. Does it make him look stupid? Yes. Is it hard to figure out what happened? No.
Even if somehow this was the case, it doesn't really explain the airports thing. I don't know anybody would wing it and say they took over the airports. Nor does it explain the multitude of other instances of Trump seemingly either being exceptionally ignorant, or suffering from diminished mental capacity.

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  #96  
Old 07-08-2019, 09:27 PM
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Even if somehow this was the case, it doesn't really explain the airports thing. I don't know anybody would wing it and say they took over the airports.
What do you mean "even if somehow"? This is most definitely the case. What do you mean "doesn't really explain"? It explains it perfectly. Dude doesn't know what he's saying, isn't listening to himself, and reads a word wrong.

My second grade teacher once said that Congress is made up of the Senate and the House of Projectors. True story. I don't know anyone else that would ever say that, either, but she said it.

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Originally Posted by BeepKillBeep View Post
Nor does it explain the multitude of other instances of Trump seemingly either being exceptionally ignorant, or suffering from diminished mental capacity.
Could you imagine if it did, though? Trump gets lost on the way to his limo? Teleprompter in the rain says "ramparts." Trump tweets covfefe? Rainy teleprompter, spelling out "ramparts." Trump abruptly reverses a major policy decision? Look closer and you'll see a teleprompter, blurred by a light mist, flashing r-a-m-p-a-r-t-s.
  #97  
Old 07-08-2019, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Saint Cad View Post
I'm going to vote for cognitive dissonance. Even back when he was a moderate Republican aka RINO he was a bully in his business dealings. Look at the Apprentice he only appreciated those who either kissed his ass or were themselves bullies. Now as President he can't bully Pelosi into submission, or the Press, or Kim Jun Un, or Xi Jinping et alii and I think he goes through his day not understanding why things are not going as he demands they should. So yes he is confused but not for neurological reasons.
Concerning the part I bolded in this quote - You do realize The Apprentice was a fictional television program and Donald Trump was just a cast member playing a character named "Donald Trump", right? What he said and the "decisions" he made were entirely scripted and dictated by the producers. He has always been a shithead in his business dealings but the only thing that show demonstrates is what a crappy actor he is and the extent he will go to get attention.
  #98  
Old 07-08-2019, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Chessic Sense View Post
What do you mean "even if somehow"? This is most definitely the case. What do you mean "doesn't really explain"? It explains it perfectly. Dude doesn't know what he's saying, isn't listening to himself, and reads a word wrong.
What we mean is what was said. It isn't clearly true, because Trump himself did not offer that explanation. When someone is being called to task, their explanation is the one that is relevant. Explanations made up after the fact are just attempts to defend them. They have little relevance.

However, even if we do allow for your explanation, it still doesn't actually work. It doesn't explain how, once he was off the teleprompter, he said even dumber things. There is no word that replaced "airports" that would fit, and neither Trump himself nor his speechwriters have offered one.

Trump said these stupid things, which is evidence of declining intelligence compared to what he's said before, and thus evidence of dementia. You even admitted he didn't know what he was saying.

Last edited by BigT; 07-08-2019 at 10:05 PM.
  #99  
Old 07-08-2019, 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Defensive Indifference View Post
Trump has always been a staggeringly ignorant crook. But he used to be able to keep his emotions in check and put together sentences of reasonable complexity. Even in the 2016 campaign, he could get through a debate fairly coherently, if dishonestly. But now, he's just screaming disjointed words and phrases at whoever's within earshot. And his increasingly rigid expression and movement don't look typical for a healthy 73 year old.
In the debates, he along with the other candidates were occasionally asked tough questions, but to my memory were never pushed by the moderators or each other to the extent that they felt the need to rage at each other. Correct me if I'm wrong.

But now, Trump has been president for two and a half years, and has repeatedly been raked over the coals by the left from day one. It only makes sense that he would seem angry in some, but certainly not all, of his responses to the press. As for screaming disjointed words and phrases, are you referring to his campaign rallies since he took office? If so, they have been even more over the top since the campaign, but not to the extent that it signals any kind of dementia. A sense of desperation at his perceived doom in the upcoming election seems a more likely cause to me. If you are referring to something else, what? I don't remember any screaming. Yeah, he got hot under the collar at Acosta and others some, but nothing like you suggest, however vaguely.

Finally, I've looked at all the clips here, and see Trump on TV practically every day, and never once saw anything that caused me to think, my, what rigid expressions and movement from the President. In fact, I just 5 seconds ago saw Trump strolling briskly across the White House lawn in February, looking quite nimble and healthy for a 73 year old man. Nah, I humbly suggest the claim of dementia is way off and not borne out by anything presented here.

Last edited by Fiddle Peghead; 07-08-2019 at 11:17 PM.
  #100  
Old 07-09-2019, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by BigT View Post
Trump said these stupid things, which is evidence of declining intelligence compared to what he's said before, and thus evidence of dementia.
Is it, though? Does declining intelligence really mean 'dementia'? Isn't it possible that a person who was semi-retired, experienced in only a few areas of life, and a complete narcissist now seems dumber because he has a full-time job (yes, I realize that Trump is incredibly lazy, but he does usually have a daily work schedule now, whereas before his days were entirely up to him), is asked to weigh on the important topics of the day, and still has no interest or capacity to learn about anything other than himself?

I just don't think we need dementia to explain why Trump acts as he does.
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