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Old 07-03-2019, 08:14 AM
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What's a Dem President going to do about the border problem?


The over crowding and understaffed centers is beyond ridiculous.

It leaves me wondering, how is a Dem president going to handle it any differently than Trump? (Aside from not separating families?)
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Old 07-03-2019, 08:35 AM
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Asylum seekers don't actually need to be detained. And undocumented entry need not be more than a civil infraction. -What I'm saying is there are other alternatives for the majority of non-visa entrants that don't endanger peace and security and don't mistreat refugees and separate families. We're capable of sorting out criminals using existing law enforcement practices and agents. The question is whether we're willing to accept that any humane system will also fail to weed out all possible bad actors.
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Old 07-03-2019, 08:43 AM
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And, as far as "bad actors" go, I'd take a quote from the Republican playbook and say "let's take care of our own bad actors before we go worrying about those immigrant bad actors. Americans first!"
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Old 07-03-2019, 09:13 AM
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A Dem could go back to catch and release and hope the press doesn't report that between a quarter and a third of immigrants don't show up for their hearings. Whether that counts as doing something is another issue.

Regards,
Shodan
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Old 07-03-2019, 09:18 AM
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A Dem could go back to catch and release and hope the press doesn't report that between a quarter and a third of immigrants don't show up for their hearings. Whether that counts as doing something is another issue.

Regards,
Shodan
Thank you for that link to the Center for Immigration Studies, an anti-immigration "think tank" whose record for factual reporting is right up there with Rush Limbaugh's and Sean Hannity's.
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Old 07-03-2019, 09:51 AM
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Thank you for that link to the Center for Immigration Studies, an anti-immigration "think tank" whose record for factual reporting is right up there with Rush Limbaugh's and Sean Hannity's.
I have no trouble believing the statistic. What would make it meaningful, though, would be a comparison to the proportion of legal residents who fail to show up for their hearings. I wasn't able to find any statistics, but court TV and life experience leads me to believe it's also reasonably high. If the percentages of no-shows are at all similar, that would suggest the problem is with people in general, or the court system. If the rates are significantly higher for immigrants, that would suggest that it's a specifc problem for migrants. Just saying X% don't show for their hearings isn't enough without context.
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Old 07-03-2019, 10:17 AM
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I know I heard that under Obama, over 90% of immigrants showed up for their court dates. 93% or 95%?
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Old 07-03-2019, 11:16 AM
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I love the Dope. Actual, factual cites - dismissed out of hand. "I heard" passes unchallenged.



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Shodan
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Old 07-03-2019, 11:48 AM
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My understaning is that a lot of the problems with immigrants not showing up to their hearings, is that the legal system is very complicated, and without access to legal counsel, or fluency with English many of these people are confused about when or where to show up.

Further lets just go ahead and take the high end at face value and assume that1/3 fail to show up. Is it really worth holding 300 people for months/years in deplorable conditions in which they have to drink from a toilet, in order to prevent 100 of them hiding out in America and committing the horrible crime of cleaning hotel rooms?

Last edited by Buck Godot; 07-03-2019 at 11:51 AM.
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Old 07-03-2019, 11:51 AM
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I am going to take a wild guess that people who think there's a significant chance that showing up for their court dates might result in their being authorized to stay in the country legally are a whole lot more likely to show up than those who think that showing up for their court dates stands little or no chance of getting any result other than their getting handcuffed and tossed out of the country, quite possibly while their children are shipped off in a different direction with no attempt made to keep track of whose children went where. So the percentage who do show up is likely to vary depending on what else is going on in the immigration system.

And I would at least hope that a Democratic POTUS would encourage the system to allow legitimate asylum claims, as is required by law; and would also allow enough legal immigration for otherwise law-abiding people who want to work and/or join their families here to reduce the current backlog to the point at which people would think there was some sense in going through the proper legal process. Funding would also be needed to hire sufficient people to get immigrants through the process in a reasonable length of time, including checks to weed out those who pose an unreasonable risk; but seems to me that the money could come from money saved by not trying to build additional walls and not having to defend lawsuits about such things as trying to build additional walls.
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Old 07-03-2019, 11:56 AM
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I love the Dope. Actual, factual cites - dismissed out of hand. "I heard" passes unchallenged.



Regards,
Shodan
It did not pass unchallenged.
  #12  
Old 07-03-2019, 11:57 AM
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The problem that we're talking about a three-legged stool here. The first leg: Border security, anything from a trumpian wall to a "smart fence" to more border agents etc. The second leg: Dealing with the folks that are already here could manifest itself in anything from blanket amnesty to draconian deportation or anything in between. But the third leg, sanctions on the employers is the one that's been neglected. trump isn't going to ever do a damn thing about the folks that hire illegal worker because he's ONE OF THEM. Seriously, let folks start seeing a few heads of big agribusiness doing perp walks and I'll believe you're trying to solve the problem rather than just demagoguing it.

Also maybe, just maybe, we ought to be considering if any of our policies toward these "Mexican countries" are contributing to why folks would rather not be there.
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Old 07-03-2019, 12:09 PM
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I love the Dope. Actual, factual cites - dismissed out of hand. "I heard" passes unchallenged.



Regards,
Shodan
This cite says that 89% attend their final court date:

https://www.humanrightsfirst.org/res...court-hearings

Higher if there is a family and children involved, and they have legal representation:

Quote:
When families and unaccompanied children have access to legal representation, the rate of compliance with immigration court obligations is nearly 98 percent.
The difference in the figures may be because there may be many court dates involved, and immigrants without legal and translation help may miss some of them. Here's where I'm making up figures that could explain the difference -- say there are 10 court dates and the average immigrant misses all but one, the one where they get their final immigration status; some immigrants miss them all. Then, you have a situation where they miss 90% of their court dates and yet attend 90% of their important ones. It's all about how the stats are spun. Humanrightsfirst.org will spin it differently than your cite, of course.

The humanrightsfirst.org page has links to other cites, which I haven't reviewed.

Last edited by RitterSport; 07-03-2019 at 12:10 PM.
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Old 07-03-2019, 01:06 PM
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Given that many of them have endorsed decriminalizing illegal immigration, how is the answer to the OP's question not "nothing?" They're going to simply let the 750 million or so people worldwide who say they want to move to the USA, do so.
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Old 07-03-2019, 01:12 PM
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Given that many of them have endorsed decriminalizing illegal immigration, how is the answer to the OP's question not "nothing?" They're going to simply let the 750 million or so people worldwide who say they want to move to the USA, do so.
This is silly.
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Old 07-03-2019, 01:15 PM
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I don't know... Given that Obama built the child cages, and there were detention centers and all the rest when he was president of a 'scandal free' administration, why do the Democrats have to do anything?

The second a Democrat is elected, the border will stop being a 'crisis', the media will stop reporting on the detention centers, and the Nobel people will start polishing up another prize.
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Old 07-03-2019, 01:18 PM
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Not really talking about the same thing, but nice try.

Regards,
Shodan
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Old 07-03-2019, 01:20 PM
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The second a Democrat is elected, the border will stop being a 'crisis', the media will stop reporting on the detention centers, and the Nobel people will start polishing up another prize.
There's only one way to find out.
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Old 07-03-2019, 01:21 PM
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I would hope that Democratic presidents would treat illegal immigration at an appropriate level. Illegal immigration is the equivalent of getting a traffic violation like a speeding ticket. There's no need to treat it like terrorism.

No legitimate need anyway. I guess the Republicans need to do this in order to keep their base afraid.

I'd also like to see the Democrats fight illegal immigration by opening up some means of legal immigration. Forbidding legal immigration is what's driving illegal immigration.

And finally, I would want the Democrats to make sure that anyone who's being held in custody by the government for any reason is being treated humanely and has the legal protection that everyone in this country is entitled to.
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Old 07-03-2019, 01:21 PM
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I don't know... Given that Obama built the child cages...
Indeed. And Trump never thanked him once. What a heel!
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Old 07-03-2019, 01:24 PM
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The second a Democrat is elected, the border will stop being a 'crisis', the media will stop reporting on the detention centers, and the Nobel people will start polishing up another prize.
Nonsense. If the Obama administration or any other Democratic administration had done a tenth of what the Trump administration has been doing, Fox News would have run the story as its lead every night.
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Old 07-03-2019, 01:40 PM
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The difference in the figures may be because there may be many court dates involved, and immigrants without legal and translation help may miss some of them.
There's another bigger reason, according to this source:
Quote:
Originally Posted by American Immigration Council
...immigration court cases often require multiple hearings before they can be completed and, due to skyrocketing backlogs in the last decade, the average immigration court case takes almost three years to complete.

The government’s statistic counts failures to appear only against the number of cases that are fully completed. By doing this, it neglects to account for the many immigrants who appeared in court in ongoing cases that have not yet reached completion.
As a result, because tens of thousands of immigrants appeared in court in 2017 but did not have a case completed, EOIR’s number does not represent the rate at which immigrants missed court.
They describe other problems with the statistic under discussion, but I think the misleading nature of bad math is pretty well illustrated already.
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Old 07-03-2019, 01:45 PM
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A Dem could go back to catch and release and hope the press doesn't report that between a quarter and a third of immigrants don't show up for their hearings. Whether that counts as doing something is another issue.

Regards,
Shodan


Based on past history, I’ll go with the non-lying piece of shit cite.

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com...817-story.html
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Old 07-03-2019, 02:02 PM
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A Dem could go back to catch and release and hope the press doesn't report that between a quarter and a third of immigrants don't show up for their hearings. Whether that counts as doing something is another issue.
And so? That means the vast majority do show up. Some dont, and stay as illegals, some go back.

People who show up requesting asylum shouldnt be imprisoned. They should be released.
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Old 07-03-2019, 02:06 PM
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Based on past history, I’ll go with the non-lying piece of shit cite.

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com...817-story.html
Yep: Looking at 15 years of immigration court data, researchers from the American Immigration Council found that 96 percent of families requesting asylum who passed through detention facilities showed up for their immigration court hearings.

What the much higher figure is based upon is that quite a few miss their first hearing date, and have to get a second one. Big freaken deal.
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Old 07-03-2019, 02:12 PM
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The asylum system is broken and being abused even Fareed Zakaria who is not a Trump fan agrees with him on this:

https://www.foxnews.com/entertainmen...ains-me-to-say

It's out of control now, and they can't keep up, so the Dem solution is to what just keep letting people flow freely through a porous border?
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Old 07-03-2019, 02:28 PM
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...the Dem solution is to what just keep letting people flow freely through a porous border?
I keep hearing this as well as that Democrats are calling for "open borders". Can anyone provide a factual cite that this policy is being proposed? Because to me, it just sounds like rhetoric used to scare people who are afraid of or have hatred toward immigrants.

Last edited by Kolak of Twilo; 07-03-2019 at 02:28 PM.
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Old 07-03-2019, 02:32 PM
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Given that many of them have endorsed decriminalizing illegal immigration, how is the answer to the OP's question not "nothing?" They're going to simply let the 750 million or so people worldwide who say they want to move to the USA, do so.
Decriminalizing illegal immigration doesn't mean that illegal immigrants won't continue to be deported, it just means that we won't waste the taxpayers' money imprisoning them for some period of time before deporting them.
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Old 07-03-2019, 02:39 PM
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The asylum system is broken and being abused even Fareed Zakaria who is not a Trump fan agrees with him on this:

https://www.foxnews.com/entertainmen...ains-me-to-say

It's out of control now, and they can't keep up, so the Dem solution is to what just keep letting people flow freely through a porous border?
Yeah, Fox is not a reliable cite on this issue... or any issues, really.

And people dont flow freely through the border. However, a influx of ag workers coming here is actually good for the economy and the nation.
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Old 07-03-2019, 03:00 PM
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Given that Obama built the child cages, and there were detention centers and all the rest when he was president of a 'scandal free' administration
The difference between that administration and this? The children were being voluntarily separated by virtue of them crossing the border alone, not being forcibly separated from families they crossed with, and released into the custody of a relative when one was found.
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Old 07-03-2019, 03:46 PM
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Heads gotta roll. Purge CBP senior staff.

ICE seems to get more hatred because it kidnaps immigrants who are integrating & throws them into concentration facilities. But CBP isn't even following our laws, and they're blatantly trafficking children. Both of these agencies need to have a lot of firings, and a few indictments.
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Old 07-03-2019, 03:54 PM
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Seriously, let folks start seeing a few heads of big agribusiness doing perp walks and I'll believe you're trying to solve the problem rather than just demagoguing it.
For the crime of giving someone a job?

US immigration law is a series of overreactions to 'crimes' that can't possibly be that serious. The whole exercise is bizarre and escalating in bizarreness.
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Old 07-03-2019, 03:58 PM
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Given that many of them have endorsed decriminalizing illegal immigration, how is the answer to the OP's question not "nothing?" They're going to simply let the 750 million or so people worldwide who say they want to move to the USA, do so.
That's my policy. I mean, I'm not spending the logistical expenses to move everyone here & house them, but let them come, find out it's not that great, and go home again.

Seriously, several different economic realities are going to keep the immigrant population pretty low. Opening the borders really isn't that dangerous.
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Old 07-03-2019, 04:00 PM
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I don't know... Given that Obama built the child cages, and there were detention centers and all the rest when he was president of a 'scandal free' administration, why do the Democrats have to do anything?

The second a Democrat is elected, the border will stop being a 'crisis', the media will stop reporting on the detention centers, and the Nobel people will start polishing up another prize.
I hate to admit that given partisanship here, you have a point.

But I think that the likes of Rashida Tlaib are really serious about this, at least. We who want humane treatment of immigrants, whichever party we are in, are not just fighting a rival party, but the dominant culture in both major parties.
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Old 07-03-2019, 04:04 PM
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I keep hearing this as well as that Democrats are calling for "open borders". Can anyone provide a factual cite that this policy is being proposed? Because to me, it just sounds like rhetoric used to scare people who are afraid of or have hatred toward immigrants.
Yes, why do conservatives act like the only two possibilities are opening the borders and letting everyone in and shutting down the border and keeping everyone out? Why are they excluding the obvious middle course; letting some people in and keeping some people out?

Maybe it's because this is a reasonable course of action and Republicans know their base isn't interested in reason.
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Old 07-03-2019, 04:52 PM
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Yeah, Fox is not a reliable cite on this issue... or any issues, really.

And people dont flow freely through the border. However, a influx of ag workers coming here is actually good for the economy and the nation.
Did you click the link and watch the video of Fareed Zakaria who works for CNN, did you agree with any of his points?

Countries whose murder rates have been dipping but have huge increases in asylum claims, attempting to gain asylum because of domestic violence which if I'm not mistaken goes on in America with regularity, how the numbers of those seeking asylum have skyrocketed, repeating the same phrases and stories as other asylum seekers making sure they say certain key words or phrases, none of that sounds suspect?
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Last edited by pool; 07-03-2019 at 04:55 PM.
  #37  
Old 07-03-2019, 05:10 PM
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The worst part of the right wing’s approach to the current crisis is thinking that this has anything to do with our immigration laws or enforcement of them.

Shame on them, and the ignorance they embrace.

The current crisis is one of violence. Right now, the countries of the Northern Triangle where the vast majority of the migrants are from are in terrible shape. And yet, I think your average Fox viewer would think they are Mexicans.

You know what happens when countries fall apart? People flee. Germany, the Eastern Bloc, Vietnam, Syria, Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Cuba, Haiti, Cambodia, the list goes on and on.

And yet, the simpletons who want a wall would probably look at that list of crises and think, “Gee, what kind of immigration laws did the receiving countries have?”

Gah. The obvious answer to our immigration crisis is to work with others so that the various countries in crisis get better. Spend $30 billion on that, and no more migrants from the Northern Triangle, plus the world will be a better place.

Or spend $30 billion on the wall, and the migrants will still come. Because climbing a 30 foot wall is preferable to being murdered.
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Old 07-03-2019, 07:00 PM
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"What's a Dem President going to do about the border problem?"

...have you considered going to the respective candidates and seeing what they each had to say on the issue? They all have different policies and ideas. A Biden presidency will handle things very differently from a Warren presidency as would a Sanders presidency. The answer to your question is "it depends on who gets elected."
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Old 07-03-2019, 07:13 PM
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Decriminalizing illegal immigration doesn't mean that illegal immigrants won't continue to be deported, it just means that we won't waste the taxpayers' money imprisoning them for some period of time before deporting them.
If all that will happen is deportation, then why not try to cross the border illegally? What do you have to lose? Worse case scenario you are right back where you started ready to try again.
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Old 07-03-2019, 07:22 PM
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If all that will happen is deportation, then why not try to cross the border illegally? What do you have to lose? Worse case scenario you are right back where you started ready to try again.
Just a question on your views of people crossing borders: let’s say that civil war breaks out in the US, and West Virginia falls into a state of chaos in which you and your family fear for your lives because of marauding murderers having put a target on you.

Can you envision a circumstance in which you may seek safe haven in another country? How do you think you should be treated when fleeing for your lives?
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Old 07-03-2019, 07:31 PM
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The worst part of the right wing’s approach to the current crisis is thinking that this has anything to do with our immigration laws or enforcement of them.

Shame on them, and the ignorance they embrace.

The current crisis is one of violence. Right now, the countries of the Northern Triangle where the vast majority of the migrants are from are in terrible shape. And yet, I think your average Fox viewer would think they are Mexicans.

You know what happens when countries fall apart? People flee. Germany, the Eastern Bloc, Vietnam, Syria, Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Cuba, Haiti, Cambodia, the list goes on and on.

And yet, the simpletons who want a wall would probably look at that list of crises and think, “Gee, what kind of immigration laws did the receiving countries have?”

Gah. The obvious answer to our immigration crisis is to work with others so that the various countries in crisis get better. Spend $30 billion on that, and no more migrants from the Northern Triangle, plus the world will be a better place.

Or spend $30 billion on the wall, and the migrants will still come. Because climbing a 30 foot wall is preferable to being murdered.
Between 2001 and 2017 the US government has spent a little more than a combined $5 billion on aid to Guatemala, Honduras, and El Salvador. You really think more money is the solution?
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Old 07-03-2019, 07:54 PM
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Did you click the link and watch the video of Fareed Zakaria who works for CNN, did you agree with any of his points?
...
I dont give clicks to fox.
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Old 07-03-2019, 07:56 PM
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Just a question on your views of people crossing borders: let’s say that civil war breaks out in the US, and West Virginia falls into a state of chaos in which you and your family fear for your lives because of marauding murderers having put a target on you.

Can you envision a circumstance in which you may seek safe haven in another country? How do you think you should be treated when fleeing for your lives?
If the U.S. falls i to chaos, the most likely reason will be that 'Democratic socialism' is actually attempted.

After all, one of the main sources of refugees are the people fleeing by the millions from yet another attempt to create a socialist paradise. You know, the country that was praised by many on the left in America for its 'bold experiment' in socialism.
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Old 07-03-2019, 08:19 PM
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If the U.S. falls i to chaos, the most likely reason will be that 'Democratic socialism' is actually attempted.

After all, one of the main sources of refugees are the people fleeing by the millions from yet another attempt to create a socialist paradise. You know, the country that was praised by many on the left in America for its 'bold experiment' in socialism.
...yeah, America is being flooded with refugees from that cornerstone of the "bold experiment" in socialism that is known to all as Canada. The evils of Universal Healthcare! I'm surprised you haven't headed to the borders yourself yet Sam. Its never to late to head to FREEDOM!
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Old 07-03-2019, 08:26 PM
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I dont give clicks to fox.
Here now Fox won't get your coveted click and you can still watch the video, just tell me if you agree he brought up any valid issues.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=61bXkVI1XUg
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Old 07-03-2019, 08:30 PM
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In Sam's defence, Canada is still pretty far to the right in some ways:
  1. It's a pretty good place to be a serial killer if your target of choice is First Nations women.
  2. They still have the monarchy.
  3. They still hate the French as a matter of ethnic identity, like good Englishmen.
  4. Even if barristers don't wear wigs, I think judges do?

By comparison, the USA must seem like a communist hellhole of progressivism. Add in the likelihood that you can lose everything to medical bills, it's understandable that Canadian conservatives stay put. They just want to tell us commies down south that we're doing everything wrong.
  #47  
Old 07-03-2019, 08:42 PM
Little Nemo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Stone View Post
If the U.S. falls i to chaos, the most likely reason will be that 'Democratic socialism' is actually attempted.
Every four years we're warned that the Democratic presidential candidate will enact socialism if elected. Either right before or immediately after confiscating all our guns.

And four years later, we'll receive the same warning. At what point will it occur to the average Republican voter that we aren't socialist and we still own guns? And that maybe we should start discounting these warnings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Stone View Post
After all, one of the main sources of refugees are the people fleeing by the millions from yet another attempt to create a socialist paradise. You know, the country that was praised by many on the left in America for its 'bold experiment' in socialism.
Sweden?
  #48  
Old 07-03-2019, 08:51 PM
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Republicans don't think we should invest in countries that people flee from, but they're willing to spend orders more than that to build a ridiculous fucking wall which will still leave the fleeing people in a situation worth fleeing from. Only they'll encounter the most impressive wall when they get here.Yeah, gotcha. The only thing missing is the plan scrawled in crayon.

Last edited by bobot; 07-03-2019 at 08:52 PM.
  #49  
Old 07-03-2019, 09:04 PM
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[*]They still hate the French as a matter of ethnic identity, like good Englishmen.
.
I think Québec might want a word with you.
  #50  
Old 07-03-2019, 09:46 PM
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Depends on which one wins. For example, if it is Sanders he’ll deport them because open borders is a Koch conspiracy. If it’s Harris, she’ll probably slap a fireman’s uniform on them and send them out into the brush.
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