Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-11-2019, 08:18 AM
FlikTheBlue is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,752

Trump to defy SCOTUS on census citizenship question. How will this end?


https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/don...ensus-n1028656

Trump plans to issue an executive order to have the citizenship question placed on the census. How will this likely work out? My guess is that Roberts will roll over and let Trump have his way. If he doesn't, how would the SCOTUS ruling be enforced? Would Roberts order federal marshals to the locations the census forms are being printed, have the forms seized, and force the workers to change the form? Would they issue a contempt of court citation (presumably to be ignored) for Wilbur Ross? Is this really an Andrew Jackson telling John Marshall, "You've made your ruling, now enforce it?" moment?

Trump keeps finding new ways to piss me off every day.
  #2  
Old 07-11-2019, 08:35 AM
DSeid's Avatar
DSeid is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 22,554
If this doesn't trigger the proverbial constitutional crisis, what could? How much farther into the imperial presidency ignoring any balance between the branches can one go?

It tests the very nature and basis of our system of government.
  #3  
Old 07-11-2019, 09:06 AM
FlikTheBlue is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,752
Here’s another crazy hypothetical aspect, but since this situation is already crazy I think it should be considered. Let’s say the printers start printing the census with the citizenship question and a bunch of protesters show up to try and stop it. If the police try to stop them, would they have a valid legal defense if they claimed they were there to enforce the SCOTUS ruling?

Last edited by FlikTheBlue; 07-11-2019 at 09:06 AM.
  #4  
Old 07-11-2019, 09:08 AM
Bone's Avatar
Bone is offline
Extrajudicial
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 10,711
I'll wait to see what actually happens, but it sounds quite bad.
  #5  
Old 07-11-2019, 09:16 AM
RTFirefly is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Maryland
Posts: 39,436
So who would have standing to sue the Administration to enjoin them from adding the question? Seems the courts would have to rule against the Administration.
  #6  
Old 07-11-2019, 09:29 AM
Walken After Midnight is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 4,864
Could this be the final bun on the impeachment sandwich?
  #7  
Old 07-11-2019, 09:35 AM
FlikTheBlue is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,752
Quote:
Originally Posted by RTFirefly View Post
So who would have standing to sue the Administration to enjoin them from adding the question? Seems the courts would have to rule against the Administration.
They already have, and Trump plans to ignore them.
  #8  
Old 07-11-2019, 09:39 AM
Doctor Jackson's Avatar
Doctor Jackson is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Jawja
Posts: 10,524
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlikTheBlue View Post
Hereís another crazy hypothetical aspect, but since this situation is already crazy I think it should be considered. Letís say the printers start printing the census with the citizenship question and a bunch of protesters show up to try and stop it. If the police try to stop them, would they have a valid legal defense if they claimed they were there to enforce the SCOTUS ruling?
No, because citizens have no legal authority to enforce SCOTUS rulings. They can protest but can't interfere, just as one can protest any other issue.
  #9  
Old 07-11-2019, 09:40 AM
bobot's Avatar
bobot is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Chicago-ish
Posts: 8,774
Hadn't it been announced that printing had begun without the question?
  #10  
Old 07-11-2019, 09:43 AM
Chisquirrel is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 2,583
The Party of Law and Order, everyone.


For everyone else, of course. Not for them.
  #11  
Old 07-11-2019, 09:55 AM
FlikTheBlue is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,752
If I understand the situation correctly, unless Trump backs down we would be in a constitutional crisis. Here are the possibilities as I see them.

1. Trump issues his order and the SCOTUS backs down. Constitutional crisis achieved via the authority of the courts as an equal branch of government being destroyed.

2. Trump issues his order and neither the SCOTUS or Trump back down. Constitutional crisis achieved, with the rank and file of the federal marshals, FBI, local police, maybe even the military, deciding whose orders they will follow. Possible armed conflict if different people come to different decisions.

3. Trump backs down, constitutional crisis averted.

I think scenario 1 is most likely at this point, although I’m obviously hoping for scenario 3. Did I miss any other possible outcomes?

Last edited by FlikTheBlue; 07-11-2019 at 09:56 AM.
  #12  
Old 07-11-2019, 09:57 AM
bobot's Avatar
bobot is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Chicago-ish
Posts: 8,774
What about the option of whoever actually does the printing defying Trump?
  #13  
Old 07-11-2019, 10:09 AM
John Bredin is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: BuffaloGrove IL (Chicago)
Posts: 2,059
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlikTheBlue View Post
3. Trump backs down, constitutional crisis averted.

I think scenario 1 is most likely at this point, although Iím obviously hoping for scenario 3.
Maybe I'm being an optimist, but I think scenario 3 is more likely. Trump has certainly been known to threaten to do something but then at the last minute ostentatiously "change his mind" in child-like hope that he'll simultaneously garnish praise for being wise and statesman-like and emphasize that he had the power to do the powerful thing he threatened but chose not to exercise that power ... this time.
  #14  
Old 07-11-2019, 10:13 AM
FlikTheBlue is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,752
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobot View Post
What about the option of whoever actually does the printing defying Trump?
4a. Trump fires those employees and replaces them with someone who will print the forms, leading back to either scenario 1 or 2.

4b. Trump backs down, leading back to scenario 3 with the minor modification that he backed down to the workers who print the form rather than backing down to the SCOTUS.
  #15  
Old 07-11-2019, 10:24 AM
Rysto is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,168
You know, I think we got our answer as to why all of those government lawyers no longer wanted to be on this case.

Last edited by Rysto; 07-11-2019 at 10:24 AM.
  #16  
Old 07-11-2019, 10:32 AM
FlikTheBlue is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,752
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rysto View Post
You know, I think we got our answer as to why all of those government lawyers no longer wanted to be on this case.
And why he is going this route rather than going back through the courts.
  #17  
Old 07-11-2019, 10:37 AM
Aspenglow's Avatar
Aspenglow is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 3,990
I think it's important to understand that the SCOTUS did not say in their ruling that a citizenship question could not be added to the census. They said it could not be added on the pretext given by Trump that they were doing it to protect voting rights. For this reason, Trump's choice to issue an executive order does not run afoul of their ruling.

However, there are very particular rules that apply to adding questions to the census. Oversight of these rules falls to (you guessed it) Congress. Trump apparently intends to attempt to ignore those rules.

He'll issue his EO, litigation by the House will be immediately filed for an injunction to test the validity of his new efforts, the reasons for which are no longer even pretended, and the EO issue will make its way through the courts. Again.

I'd like to think the SCOTUS would require Trump to adhere to the rules for adding a census question, but I have no idea. If they agree that Trump has exclusive authority to do this with an EO for his own reasons alone and the Congress no longer has a role, then I'd say the imperial "presidency" is complete.

As for why they're going this route, my belief is that even Czar Barr knew that attempting to take the issue back before the SCOTUS on the original pretext of voting rights wasn't going to fly. And you're right about why the lawyers no longer want to be on this case.
  #18  
Old 07-11-2019, 10:39 AM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 10,695
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlikTheBlue View Post
And why he is going this route rather than going back through the courts.
Because with Bill Barr's assistance, he's trying to get the American public used to the idea of an interpretation of constitutional power that's not necessarily new but one that's never been really exercised, which is the concept of constitutional departmentalism. Ever since Marbury v Madison, presidents have more or less accepted judicial supremacy in terms of declaring what the law is. Trump's administration is going to change that, and this is the beginning.

Remember, it's not the judicial or legislative branch that has the military, or its own police force, or its own detention centers, or its own national intelligence gathering apparatus. Separate...but hardly co-equal.

Make no mistake about it: we're in a constitutional crisis, and also a political crisis.

Last edited by asahi; 07-11-2019 at 10:40 AM.
  #19  
Old 07-11-2019, 10:44 AM
Johnny L.A. is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: NoWA
Posts: 61,538
I have left a voice mail for Senator Patty Murray, and sent contact forms to Senator Murray, Senator Maria Cantwell, and Representative Susan DelBene:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny L.A.
I have heard that President Trump plans to issue an executive order to defy the Supreme Court of the United States, in order to put the citizenship question on the 2020 Census.

You, my representative in the [Senate/House], must not allow this to happen. If the president gets away with this plan, it would cause a Constitutional crisis and the United States would effectively be a dictatorship.
  #20  
Old 07-11-2019, 10:47 AM
DigitalC is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Obamatopia
Posts: 11,134
He will get away with it and the SC court will do nothing.
  #21  
Old 07-11-2019, 10:52 AM
Aspenglow's Avatar
Aspenglow is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 3,990
Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalC View Post
He will get away with it and the SC court will do nothing.
If that's true, look on the bright side: We can watch Bret Kavanaugh cry again as the Supreme Court is dissolved. No need for any interpretation of the laws when you have an emperor.

Though I'm sure Trump would keep them around for window dressing.
  #22  
Old 07-11-2019, 10:58 AM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 10,695
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspenglow View Post
I think it's important to understand that the SCOTUS did not say in their ruling that a citizenship question could not be added to the census. They said it could not be added on the pretext given by Trump that they were doing it to protect voting rights. For this reason, Trump's choice to issue an executive order does not run afoul of their ruling.
IANAL, but I really don't see how it doesn't run afoul of their ruling, unless you refuse to accept judicial supremacy. If the Court decision was simply to advise the president and not declare his attempt the rational behind it constitutionally invalid, that's one thing, but that's not my understanding of the ruling's force.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspenglow View Post
However, there are very particular rules that apply to adding questions to the census. Oversight of these rules falls to (you guessed it) Congress. Trump apparently intends to attempt to ignore those rules.
Oversight may fall to congress, but it's oversight without teeth if you're going to argue that the Court's decision is simply advisory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspenglow View Post
He'll issue his EO, litigation by the House will be immediately filed for an injunction to test the validity of his new efforts, the reasons for which are no longer even pretended, and the EO issue will make its way through the courts. Again.
He'll issue the EO, proceed with the census, and once he does that, it'll be litigated legally and politically for years afterward, thereby causing a political crisis. I don't think the judiciary is really blind to the effects of issuing an EO and proceeding with the census, which is one of the pillars how our republic functions. That's why I disagree that the Court would embrace the idea that an EO in this case is legally valid under the Constitution.

But I absolutely accept that this is consistent with Bill Barr's interpretation of the Constitution. Barr's already declared that, in his judgment, that the Court got it wrong. He wouldn't be the first president to do that, but presidents' responses usually involve going back and trying to win more political power, or finding other legal strategies that don't defy the spirit of the Court's decisions.

What Barr's actions are doing is essentially taking back the United States government back to the late 1790s when the limits of constitutional powers and the powers of each branch were nebulous. Worse, though, he's using the nation's census as the political football. And in doing so, he's laying down the foundation for ongoing political crisis not just this year, not just next year, but for years to come.
  #23  
Old 07-11-2019, 11:00 AM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 10,695
The House has no choice now but to start building the case for impeachment, but they should do so chiefly on grounds that it has defied the Court. They can certainly throw in Mueller, Russia, Epstein to boot if they want, but it has to start with venerating the Constitution.
  #24  
Old 07-11-2019, 11:13 AM
FlikTheBlue is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,752
Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
The House has no choice now but to start building the case for impeachment, but they should do so chiefly on grounds that it has defied the Court. They can certainly throw in Mueller, Russia, Epstein to boot if they want, but it has to start with venerating the Constitution.
They should, but they won’t because of the reasons outlined in this thread.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=877870

Were the situation reversed, and say Obama had tried to sign an executive order ignoring a SCOTUS ruling, Boehner or Ryan would have started impeachment proceedings as quickly as they could gather their caucus. Pelosi doesn’t have the guts to do it.

Last edited by FlikTheBlue; 07-11-2019 at 11:16 AM.
  #25  
Old 07-11-2019, 11:17 AM
Aspenglow's Avatar
Aspenglow is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 3,990
Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
IANAL, but I really don't see how it doesn't run afoul of their ruling, unless you refuse to accept judicial supremacy. If the Court decision was simply to advise the president and not declare his attempt the rational behind it constitutionally invalid, that's one thing, but that's not my understanding of the ruling's force.
IANAL either, but I disagree with your interpretation of the ruling's force. The SCOTUS absolutely left open the question of whether or not a citizenship question could be added to the census. They ruled in a very narrow way, saying only that it could not be added on the pretext given by Wilbur Ross (New York Times).

By issuing an EO, Trump entirely sidesteps whether he needs a reason at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
Oversight may fall to congress, but it's oversight without teeth if you're going to argue that the Court's decision is simply advisory.
I'm not arguing that, and I don't see where you think I am. Neither is Trump making that argument. He and Barr are trying to render the decision irrelevant as it pertains to an EO. They may or may not succeed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
He'll issue the EO, proceed with the census, and once he does that, it'll be litigated legally and politically for years afterward, thereby causing a political crisis. I don't think the judiciary is really blind to the effects of issuing an EO and proceeding with the census, which is one of the pillars how our republic functions. That's why I disagree that the Court would embrace the idea that an EO in this case is legally valid under the Constitution.
I disagree with the part where you say he will proceed with the census. Do you doubt the House will file a motion for preliminary injunctive relief pending a ruling on whether Trump's EO is legal? Or that any reasonable court would deny such a ruling under the circumstances? If you're going to assert that a court would deny such a motion, that's an entirely separate discussion.

<snip>
  #26  
Old 07-11-2019, 11:41 AM
RTFirefly is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Maryland
Posts: 39,436
Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
The House has no choice now but to start building the case for impeachment, but they should do so chiefly on grounds that it has defied the Court. They can certainly throw in Mueller, Russia, Epstein to boot if they want, but it has to start with venerating the Constitution.
Speaker Pelosi: if ignoring Supreme Court decisions isn't grounds for impeachment, then WTF is?!

Just pull the trigger on this already. We worked our asses off last year to give you this power. Now use it.
  #27  
Old 07-11-2019, 11:49 AM
Walken After Midnight is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 4,864
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walken After Midnight View Post
Could this be the final bun on the impeachment sandwich?
For comparison, here's a photo of the impeachment sandwich that the Republicans served Bill Clinton.
  #28  
Old 07-11-2019, 11:49 AM
Icarus's Avatar
Icarus is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: In front of my PC, y tu?
Posts: 5,237
Quote:
Originally Posted by RTFirefly View Post
Speaker Pelosi: if ignoring Supreme Court decisions isn't grounds for impeachment, then WTF is?!

Just pull the trigger on this already. We worked our asses off last year to give you this power. Now use it.
Yeah, CoNsTiTuTiOnAl cRiSis, as if that is an actual thing, and not just two words put together.
  #29  
Old 07-11-2019, 11:56 AM
Aspenglow's Avatar
Aspenglow is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 3,990
Quote:
Originally Posted by RTFirefly View Post
Speaker Pelosi: if ignoring Supreme Court decisions isn't grounds for impeachment, then WTF is?!

Just pull the trigger on this already. We worked our asses off last year to give you this power. Now use it.
How will this work, exactly?

At the moment, only 79 Dems and 1 Republican have come out in favor of impeachment in the House.

What if Pelosi doesn't even yet have enough votes in her own caucus to open an impeachment inquiry? Do you think she does?

Why do you think she, Nadler, Schiff and all the rest are working so feverishly to carry out these proceedings to bring the narrative to the American people, and why Trump is doing everything he can to ignore/distract from them? No one else can pressure their representatives to vote for impeachment except their constituents.

Are you ready for whatever wag-the-dog, distractive high jinx will happen next Wednesday, when Mueller is set to testify? Is that the day we attack Iran? Or will Trump just announce that Ivanka will be his running mate for 2020?

No one is more in favor of impeachment/removal than me, but a failed effort at the wrong time will be worse by far than no effort at all.

If impeachment fails in the House, who will you blame? Republicans? Or Democrats?
  #30  
Old 07-11-2019, 01:00 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 10,695
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspenglow View Post
How will this work, exactly?

At the moment, only 79 Dems and 1 Republican have come out in favor of impeachment in the House.

What if Pelosi doesn't even yet have enough votes in her own caucus to open an impeachment inquiry? Do you think she does?
The vote to impeach and send it to the Senate wouldn't have to take place tomorrow, but even if it did, I think this would be a fight worth having win, lose, or draw.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspenglow View Post
Why do you think she, Nadler, Schiff and all the rest are working so feverishly to carry out these proceedings to bring the narrative to the American people, and why Trump is doing everything he can to ignore/distract from them? No one else can pressure their representatives to vote for impeachment except their constituents.
I wasn't necessarily eager to bring impeachment charges against the president because it would have been, in my view, simply re-litigating the Mueller investigation, and the entire ordeal involves lots of details that have escaped our attention. There's no question that what Trump did was even worse than Watergate. There's no question that Trump cheats to win, but the public seems to have largely shrugged it off. But Trump is much, much farther down the football field now, and while there is no way to know how they will respond to concerns about the separation of powers, there comes a point when we can't worry about that, because it's clear that he's tearing the law and the constitution to shreds, and it's something that a House majority, as impotent as it might be, can't just sit by and watch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspenglow View Post
Are you ready for whatever wag-the-dog, distractive high jinx will happen next Wednesday, when Mueller is set to testify? Is that the day we attack Iran? Or will Trump just announce that Ivanka will be his running mate for 2020?

No one is more in favor of impeachment/removal than me, but a failed effort at the wrong time will be worse by far than no effort at all.

If impeachment fails in the House, who will you blame? Republicans? Or Democrats?
We have to defend ourselves. Doing nothing to stop him is worse than trying to stop him and failing. I agree that they probably need to make an effort to sell that to the American people, but the specter of failure shouldn't be a reason to avoid impeachment. There's no more reason to wait.
  #31  
Old 07-11-2019, 01:22 PM
Walken After Midnight is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 4,864
ABC News:
Quote:
President Donald Trump is expected to announce later Thursday he is backing down from his effort to include a citizenship question on the 2020 census, and will instead take executive action that instructs the Commerce Department to survey the American public on the question through other means, according to multiple sources familiar with the matter.
  #32  
Old 07-11-2019, 01:25 PM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 35,312
What a weak, low energy response from the stable genius!
  #33  
Old 07-11-2019, 01:27 PM
QuickSilver is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 18,885
He bravely ran away.
__________________
St. QuickSilver: Patron Saint of Thermometers.
  #34  
Old 07-11-2019, 01:27 PM
JKellyMap's Avatar
JKellyMap is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 9,550
Wow — close call. I was literally just starting to write letters to my congresscritters, urging them that impeachment time had finally arrived. (I’ve been against it previously, for the practical reasons asahi has well explained).

But, as others have said, some of the damage has already been done (in terms of making an undercount more likely, due to public uncertainty and confusion).

Last edited by JKellyMap; 07-11-2019 at 01:28 PM.
  #35  
Old 07-11-2019, 01:30 PM
enalzi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 8,089
It's Trump. He's going to change his mind as soon as someone on Fox News disapproves this. This isn't over until the census is done.
  #36  
Old 07-11-2019, 01:32 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 10,695
I'm not convinced he's done with the census; I'll believe it when I see it. But hopefully, it could be that he decided that he'll pick another battle, another time.

This won't be the last time he threatens the Constitution or the institutional framework that holds it together. If nothing else, he made it clear that he's not afraid to push to see what he can get away with.

I have no idea whether an impeachment over this would have succeeded, but it would have exposed him to a different kind of risk. The Mueller thing is kinda baked into the cake at this point, but I think (I would like to think) that Americans might be less inclined to ignore explicit, obvious threats to the Constitution.
  #37  
Old 07-11-2019, 01:34 PM
QuickSilver is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 18,885
Quote:
Originally Posted by JKellyMap View Post
Wow ó close call.
Was it though? Has the orange fucking moron every really shown himself to have a spine? Spite, sure. But having a spine requires the sort of strength of character that he has never had in his worthless life.

I can't wait until the presidential debates where either Biden punches him in the mouth or Harris makes him cry in impotent rage.
__________________
St. QuickSilver: Patron Saint of Thermometers.
  #38  
Old 07-11-2019, 01:34 PM
HurricaneDitka is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walken After Midnight View Post
So NBC's sources are shit?
  #39  
Old 07-11-2019, 01:34 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 10,695
Quote:
Originally Posted by enalzi View Post
It's Trump. He's going to change his mind as soon as someone on Fox News disapproves this. This isn't over until the census is done.
I think this is a distinct possibility.
  #40  
Old 07-11-2019, 01:37 PM
JKellyMap's Avatar
JKellyMap is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 9,550
Assuming Trump does back off, what’s interesting to me is how it’s an implicit admission that they DON’T have a good reason for the change (duh) — that the reason found on that hard drive is accurate. Which is itself a subversion of democracy.

In other words, it’s sort of a catch-22. Whatever Trump did would be some sort of attempt to rig/defy the system.
  #41  
Old 07-11-2019, 01:53 PM
HurricaneDitka is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,247
Quote:
Originally Posted by JKellyMap View Post
Assuming Trump does back off, whatís interesting to me is how itís an implicit admission that they DONíT have a good reason for the change (duh) ó that the reason found on that hard drive is accurate. Which is itself a subversion of democracy.

In other words, itís sort of a catch-22. Whatever Trump did would be some sort of attempt to rig/defy the system.
I don't think abandoning the lawsuit is an "implicit admission" at all. It could be as simple as: we don't have enough time to see this case through before we have to print census forms and mail them out, so the whole exercise would be wasted, even if we eventually triumphed in court.
  #42  
Old 07-11-2019, 02:01 PM
bobot's Avatar
bobot is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Chicago-ish
Posts: 8,774
nm

Last edited by bobot; 07-11-2019 at 02:01 PM.
  #43  
Old 07-11-2019, 02:03 PM
JKellyMap's Avatar
JKellyMap is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 9,550
Really? They’ve had, what, a full week to come up with some other (false) reason? If they could have thought of one, and cone up with (fraudulent) evidence that it was their reason all along, they would have.
  #44  
Old 07-11-2019, 02:07 PM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 35,312
Quote:
Originally Posted by JKellyMap View Post
Really? They’ve had, what, a full week to come up with some other (false) reason? If they could have thought of one, and cone up with (fraudulent) evidence that it was their reason all along, they would have.
In addition to being morally bankrupt, dishonest, and dishonorable, these folks (Trump administration officials who haven't already resigned or been fired) are just massively, incredibly incompetent. Thankfully, for the most part. Incompetent in management, incompetent in execution, incompetent in planning, incompetent in justifying and explaining... everything. The only things they're good at are the things that essentially require incompetence -- i.e. making migrant families suffer.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 07-11-2019 at 02:07 PM.
  #45  
Old 07-11-2019, 02:11 PM
Walken After Midnight is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 4,864
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
So NBC's sources are shit?
More likely that Trump changed his mind some time today (if it transpires that he doesn't take executive action). To quote from the ABC article:
Quote:
As recently as Thursday morning, administration officials had been repeatedly suggested the president would take executive action calling for the question be added to the census. It was not immediately clear when and why the final decision was made not to move forward with that plan.
  #46  
Old 07-11-2019, 02:11 PM
JKellyMap's Avatar
JKellyMap is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 9,550
Well put, iiandyiiii

Last edited by JKellyMap; 07-11-2019 at 02:11 PM.
  #47  
Old 07-11-2019, 02:33 PM
Ravenman is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 26,426
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
So NBC's sources are shit?
It's more likely that this Administration is shit because they can't plan for breakfast even if they are given a box of cereal and a carton of milk.
  #48  
Old 07-11-2019, 02:53 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 10,695
Quote:
Originally Posted by JKellyMap View Post
Really? Theyíve had, what, a full week to come up with some other (false) reason? If they could have thought of one, and cone up with (fraudulent) evidence that it was their reason all along, they would have.
It doesn't really matter what Trump admits to or not; the evidence on the infamous hard drive is overwhelmingly clear what the real motive was. Even if we didn't have the hard drive, though, it's extraordinary the degree to which the president has involved the Executive in a function that is Constitutionally reserved for Congress -- it's Congress that is charged with the responsibilities of establishing the guidelines for taking the census and establishing similar rules for apportionment, not the President. The president is supposed to assist congress, not come up with his own guidelines. Ignoring the Court's ruling would have been the icing on the cake.
  #49  
Old 07-11-2019, 02:55 PM
Aspenglow's Avatar
Aspenglow is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 3,990
Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
The vote to impeach and send it to the Senate wouldn't have to take place tomorrow, but even if it did, I think this would be a fight worth having win, lose, or draw.
asahi, if you're going to continue to respond to posts I've made that weren't directed to you -- and that's fine -- please at least do me the courtesy of reading my posts more carefully. I did not say or even imply the vote to impeach and send to the Senate should take place tomorrow. I asked if we know whether Pelosi has the votes to even open an impeachment inquiry.

Do we know this? I don't. I only know what I said above: As of now, only 79 Dems and 1 Republican have come out in favor of impeachment. If the numbers are the same just to open an inquiry, do you still wonder why it hasn't happened?

Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
I wasn't necessarily eager to bring impeachment charges against the president because it would have been, in my view, simply re-litigating the Mueller investigation, and the entire ordeal involves lots of details that have escaped our attention. There's no question that what Trump did was even worse than Watergate. There's no question that Trump cheats to win, but the public seems to have largely shrugged it off. But Trump is much, much farther down the football field now, and while there is no way to know how they will respond to concerns about the separation of powers, there comes a point when we can't worry about that, because it's clear that he's tearing the law and the constitution to shreds, and it's something that a House majority, as impotent as it might be, can't just sit by and watch.

We have to defend ourselves. Doing nothing to stop him is worse than trying to stop him and failing.
On this point, we disagree. And again, I despise the rat bastard currently occupying the Oval, advocated for his impeachment from Day 1. I understand the sense of helplessness and frustration as well as anyone in this thread. I just think that whatever is done must be effective -- or we'll have 4 more years of it.

<snip>
  #50  
Old 07-11-2019, 02:57 PM
Chronos's Avatar
Chronos is offline
Charter Member
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The Land of Cleves
Posts: 84,786
Quote:
Quoth HurricaneDitka:

I don't think abandoning the lawsuit is an "implicit admission" at all. It could be as simple as: we don't have enough time to see this case through before we have to print census forms and mail them out, so the whole exercise would be wasted, even if we eventually triumphed in court.
They can't get it through the courts and get new forms printed in a decade? If there were actually some good reason for wanting the question on the census, then if they couldn't get it this cycle, they'd still want it next cycle.

But there's not a good reason. They wanted it because, with the demographics as they now stand, it would give them a partisan advantage this cycle. It would probably also give them a partisan advantage in 2030, but they're not sure about that, and if the demographics shift in such a way that it'd be against their partisan interest, they don't want it.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:34 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017