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  #251  
Old 07-25-2019, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ElvisL1ves View Post
Your discussion was about Mueller himself.
Do you often ignore the character and disposition of the person giving testimony, or is this case different?

Perhaps I should take Mueller's disembodied words as holy emanations from upon a mount of some sort, but they have yet to be carved into immortal stone and that may take awhile.
  #252  
Old 07-25-2019, 05:30 PM
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Nothing? Where are you going with this?

The last paragraph of Article 1 Section 2 of the US Constitution in it's entirety is... "The House of Representatives shall chuse their Speaker and other Officers; and shall have the sole Power of Impeachment."

That's the end of it. There is no, "Subject to..."
Come on. You are pretending to be obtuse. You know as well as everyone that a trial in the Senate is required after an impeachment in the House to removed a president.

But is that what you really want? Suppose Trump is impeached and acquitted in the Senate. Do you want to read "Exonorated!" "Not Guilty!" all over his tweets and have the 2020 election be about how the Dems prosecuted a poor innocent president because they have no message or solutions for the country?
  #253  
Old 07-25-2019, 05:36 PM
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If Trump does go, I'm not so much interested in seeing him go as I am curious to see what a President Pence would be like.
  #254  
Old 07-25-2019, 06:05 PM
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  #255  
Old 07-25-2019, 06:10 PM
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If you honestly believe the democrats aren't motivated by political power I'm not sure where you've lived the past 100 years or so.
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  #256  
Old 07-25-2019, 06:12 PM
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But is that what you really want? Suppose Trump is impeached and acquitted in the Senate. Do you want to read "Exonorated!" "Not Guilty!" all over his tweets and have the 2020 election be about how the Dems prosecuted a poor innocent president because they have no message or solutions for the country?
I know I don't, not that by any means I think that* is inevitable. But if you think the Dems have no message or solutions, ISTM that you aren't paying attention. You might not think much of them, but they're out there.

* "That" being the part about the election, not the tweets. They are inevitable.

Last edited by Fiddle Peghead; 07-25-2019 at 06:14 PM. Reason: * part
  #257  
Old 07-25-2019, 06:21 PM
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I know I don't, not that by any means I think that* is inevitable. But if you think the Dems have no message or solutions, ISTM that you aren't paying attention. You might not think much of them, but they're out there.

* "That" being the part about the election, not the tweets. They are inevitable.
No, just to clarify. Although I think the Dem messages and solutions are terrible, they have some. But my prior post was meant to be Trump's mocking of them and the GOP election talking points: No solutions, Just bash Trump. Come up with something catchy. A first draft: DEM=Deny Evidence Mueller investigation. He was exonerated, yet they continue.

(Yes, I'll keep working on it. )
  #258  
Old 07-25-2019, 06:58 PM
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What does "could have made a big deal about the Mueller report" even mean? You mean impeach right off the bat?
This is the sort of idiocy that makes it very un-worth talking with you.

I'm not even gonna bother.
  #259  
Old 07-25-2019, 07:05 PM
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Come on. You are pretending to be obtuse. You know as well as everyone that a trial in the Senate is required after an impeachment in the House to removed a president.
That's assuming removal is the only reason for impeachment, that if the Senate won't remove, there's no point in the House even making the case.

Obviously there are a lot of people who feel that way. But there are plenty of people who don't. Rather than re-litigate the issue yet one more time, I'll just note that plenty of people have made the arguments on both sides, both here and elsewhere.
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But is that what you really want? Suppose Trump is impeached and acquitted in the Senate. Do you want to read "Exonorated!" "Not Guilty!" all over his tweets
Hard to be very scared of something happening in the future when it's a daily occurrence right now.
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and have the 2020 election be about how the Dems prosecuted a poor innocent president because they have no message or solutions for the country?
Depends on who you think will be more convinced by the concluding vote in the Senate than by the presentation of the case for impeachment in the Judiciary Committee, the full House, and the Senate in succession.
  #260  
Old 07-25-2019, 07:12 PM
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That's assuming removal is the only reason for impeachment, that if the Senate won't remove, there's no point in the House even making the case.

Obviously there are a lot of people who feel that way. But there are plenty of people who don't. Rather than re-litigate the issue yet one more time, I'll just note that plenty of people have made the arguments on both sides, both here and elsewhere. Hard to be very scared of something happening in the future when it's a daily occurrence right now. Depends on who you think will be more convinced by the concluding vote in the Senate than by the presentation of the case for impeachment in the Judiciary Committee, the full House, and the Senate in succession.
When Trump is found Not Guilty 85-15 in the Senate, do you think you could still say that he is full of shit when he tweets those things? You have a fairly decent case now for saying that him and his subordinates are spouting nonsense. When it is 85-15, will you have that advantage?
  #261  
Old 07-25-2019, 07:17 PM
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That's assuming removal is the only reason for impeachment, that if the Senate won't remove, there's no point in the House even making the case.

Obviously there are a lot of people who feel that way. But there are plenty of people who don't. Rather than re-litigate the issue yet one more time, I'll just note that plenty of people have made the arguments on both sides, both here and elsewhere. Hard to be very scared of something happening in the future when it's a daily occurrence right now. Depends on who you think will be more convinced by the concluding vote in the Senate than by the presentation of the case for impeachment in the Judiciary Committee, the full House, and the Senate in succession.
These are valid points. We've been using "impeachment" to mean "removal from office," but it doesn't automatically include that.
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im·peach·ment /imˈpēCHmənt/
the action of calling into question the integrity or validity of something.
"the prosecutor's detailed impeachment of the character witness"
  • British - a charge of treason or another crime against the state. "the king cynically abandoned him, encouraging his impeachment"
  • US - a charge of misconduct made against the holder of a public office. "the president is facing impeachment over the scandal"
As I've said, I'm in favor of waiting until all the ducks are in a row. But maybe at some time it will seem to be a good strategy to put Donnie through this even if the likelihood of him being removed from office is remote. If anything, it will make it even clearer how the Pubbies are backing a total loser.
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  #262  
Old 07-25-2019, 07:53 PM
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...As I've said, I'm in favor of waiting until all the ducks are in a row. But maybe at some time it will seem to be a good strategy to put Donnie through this even if the likelihood of him being removed from office is remote. If anything, it will make it even clearer how the Pubbies are backing a total loser.
Here's what US Intelligence veteran Malcolm Nance tweeted today:

Quote:
Malcolm Nance ‏Verified account @MalcolmNance
PLAN OF ACTION: Dems can start impeachment inquiry of Trump but schedule investigation to be a year long affair that goes to Senate AFTER the 2020 Election lame duck session. He loses advantage of Senate vote & his criminalty exposed. Use raw political power. #NukeHimFromOrbit

11:24 AM - 25 Jul 2019
939 replies 6,427 retweets 17,066 likes
https://twitter.com/MalcolmNance/sta...57332228771840

#NukeHimFromOrbit is definitely going to catch on.
  #263  
Old 07-25-2019, 08:05 PM
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For the most part, here at the Dope, we've been using 'impeachment' correctly - to refer to a majority of the House voting articles of impeachment.

IMHO, the likelihood of the Senate's removing him is so small it isn't worth practical consideration. Unless Trump were to literally shoot someone on Fifth Avenue (and maybe even then), almost all of the Republicans in both houses of Congress would fall in behind him. A few GOP Senators might vote for removal to hold onto their seats, and one or two more might vote for removal out of principle. But I'd be astounded if even 55 Senators voted for removal, no matter how strong the case for it.

OTOH, UltraVires' 85-15 vote for acquittal is even more absurd. The impeachment vote in the House would be all hands on deck. I think there are or will be a couple of empty House seats, and now-independent Justin Amash would vote for impeachment, so the Dems would 'only' need 216 of their 235-member caucus to vote for impeachment in order to send articles of impeachment to the Senate. And if 216 of 235 Dems vote for impeachment in the House, a similarly large majority of Dem Senators would vote for removal.

I could see a Kavanaugh-ish vote on removal, where all the Dems except Manchin voted for removal, and all GOPers except Murkowski voted against removal. If that happens, you heard it here first - though I still think it's more likely that McConnell would protect his Senators from having to vote at all by the simple expedient of not holding a trial. And even more likely still at this point, alas, that Trump doesn't get impeached at all.
  #264  
Old 07-25-2019, 08:10 PM
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Here's what US Intelligence veteran Malcolm Nance tweeted today:
Is there a reason to believe this guy has a better idea of what's going on in the House than your average reporter who covers Congress?
Quote:
#NukeHimFromOrbit is definitely going to catch on.
When the nuke hits, can Pence be standing next to him? While I believe she's handled this whole thing badly, I could live with a year or so of President Pelosi!
  #265  
Old 07-25-2019, 08:20 PM
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Is there a reason to believe this guy has a better idea of what's going on in the House than your average reporter who covers Congress?
I just mentioned his intelligence credentials in case any reader might have been trying to place him. I wouldn't claim that his idea has any particular dependence on his special area of expertise.

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When the nuke hits, can Pence be standing next to him? While I believe she's handled this whole thing badly, I could live with a year or so of President Pelosi!
Works for me!
  #266  
Old 07-25-2019, 09:22 PM
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Come on. You are pretending to be obtuse. You know as well as everyone that a trial in the Senate is required after an impeachment in the House to removed a president.
I honestly do not know what he meant by 'subject to'. I still don't and I don't think your guess is correct but it might be.
  #267  
Old 07-25-2019, 09:23 PM
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Well no big deal, amirite?

Russia tried to influence our election to elect Trump. If they were unsuccessful, and had no actual influence on the result, that's a big hairy ass deal. Because they tried. If they did succeed, that's fucking thermonuclear. That's a spoonful of plutonium on your granola. Really, very bad. And we don't even know.

Trump had ongoing business interests in Russia. But said he didn't. He lied.

Trump told Don McGahn to fire Mueller. Mr McGahn has no authority to do any such thing. He doesn't have authority to fire the janitor. The caterer. Trump's hairstylist has a security clearance, prolly not him either.

Trump told McGahn to falsify an official record. In any other litany of bad acts, that would be yuge. In this bunch, its a pygmy. Puny, itsy bitsy. Mere perjury.

Both Trump and Barr characterized the Mueller report as largely an exoneration. They lied. Amazingly, they lied while knowing full well there was a good chance they would be exposed. Its Baghdad Bob level.

Trump deliberately played cutesie games with any possible testimony, refusing any direct examination, and settling, finally, on written questions. And then, according to Mr Mueller, lied. Pretty sure that isn't actually legal. TG, IANAL.

Mike Flynn was working on behalf of at least one foreign government, as he was nominated for and confirmed to be national security adviser. Obama warned him, Sally Yates warned him. He asked Comey to go easy, because Flynn was such a great guy. And then fired Comey when he refused!

Manafort, his campaign manager, is a slimy, traitorous greed-freak. A two dollar Shanghai waterfront hooker is less of a whore. Hey, maybe Dipshit Donny didn't know! I can believe that, he is that stupid. Sure. A pass, due to cognitive shit-for-brains. Dumb as a bag of wet mice.

Shit, if Obama had done any one of these things, the Republican Senate would vote to put him in front of the Washington Monument before a firing squad that afternoon! And I'm leaving a whole bunch of shit out!

But hey! Let's just move on. I mean, really, what's the big deal, here?
  #268  
Old 07-25-2019, 09:25 PM
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F... I still think it's more likely that McConnell would protect his Senators from having to vote at all by the simple expedient of not holding a trial. ....
This. There would be NO vote in the Senate.
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  #269  
Old 07-25-2019, 09:56 PM
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Mueller hearing = nothingberder? Not so fast.

What the Mueller Hearings Did Not Tell Us
https://nyti.ms/2OeUfkm

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... There’s a lot more to the case against Mr. Trump and his associates than what came up in Wednesday’s hearings.

First, while Mr. Mueller’s inquiry generated 37 criminal indictments and has secured at least seven guilty pleas or convictions, some of these cases, including the prosecution of the longtime Trump associate Roger Stone, are ongoing, and were not fully addressed in the redacted Mueller report.

Second, the extent of Mr. Trump’s past or continuing business dealings with Russia remains a mystery. Mr. Mueller confirmed that it was outside the scope of his investigation to address whether Russians laundered money through Trump businesses, and declined to discuss whether he reviewed Mr. Trump’s tax returns.

And third, the special counsel has referred numerous cases to other law enforcement authorities — including at least one involving alleged misconduct by the president regarding campaign contributions.

...

Whatever the press and pundits are saying in the aftermath of Mr. Mueller’s testimony, Wednesday’s hearings were not the end of the road; they were not even the beginning of it.
This is the kind of thing Nancy Pelosi was referring to.
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  #270  
Old 07-25-2019, 11:34 PM
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I don't give a flying fuck that Trump ultimately won't be removed from office through impeachment, but the democrats deciding not to impeach him is really depressing and is the reason why democrats will lose big in the 2020 elections. The legitimate outrage that spurred 2018 voters to show up is dismissed by the democratic leaders. No, people really don't want to hear about health care, education, blah, blah... that shit is boring. I want to vote for someone who will fight for goodness and what is right, not someone who is a puppet of the latest polls. Any (D) that says that infuriating line about "...but people don't want to hear about Trump, they want to hear about health care, about LBGT rights, about education" and therefore not expressing 100% outrage at the corruption of the Trump administration as being the #1 threat to our confidence in gov't, our image of the US, should just forfeit. You are not a gas station. You don't need to build your store right across the street from your competitor. Your competitor is in the worst part of town so all you are doing is making sure no one wants to visit your store.
  #271  
Old 07-25-2019, 11:39 PM
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I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned, or maybe it has somewhere and I missed it. Mitch McConnell and that idiot from Mississippi block legislation intended to increase security against Russian meddling in 2020 election, just hours after Mueller warns of the continued risks of such meddling.

Hard to understand why Republicans are so unconcerned about Putin's Trump-supporting goons. Why, one might almost think they want to encourage them!

Meanwhile, in other news, Republican efforts to prevent blacks and poor people from voting continue. Because election security is important!
  #272  
Old 07-26-2019, 12:22 AM
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Well, yes, election security is precisely the issue! If elections are not carefully secured, the wrong people might gain power. Mr McConnell is well aware of the corrupting effect of power, we should be grateful that he is so eager to protect us.
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  #273  
Old 07-26-2019, 12:45 AM
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Great, so McConnell will use that "but, but that's way too partisan" as a reason for all his fucked-up actions.
  #274  
Old 07-26-2019, 01:41 AM
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Well no big deal, amirite?

Russia tried to influence our election to elect Trump. If they were unsuccessful, and had no actual influence on the result, that's a big hairy ass deal. Because they tried. If they did succeed, that's fucking thermonuclear. That's a spoonful of plutonium on your granola. Really, very bad. And we don't even know.

Trump had ongoing business interests in Russia. But said he didn't. He lied.

Trump told Don McGahn to fire Mueller. Mr McGahn has no authority to do any such thing. He doesn't have authority to fire the janitor. The caterer. Trump's hairstylist has a security clearance, prolly not him either.

Trump told McGahn to falsify an official record. In any other litany of bad acts, that would be yuge. In this bunch, its a pygmy. Puny, itsy bitsy. Mere perjury.

Both Trump and Barr characterized the Mueller report as largely an exoneration. They lied. Amazingly, they lied while knowing full well there was a good chance they would be exposed. Its Baghdad Bob level.

Trump deliberately played cutesie games with any possible testimony, refusing any direct examination, and settling, finally, on written questions. And then, according to Mr Mueller, lied. Pretty sure that isn't actually legal. TG, IANAL.

Mike Flynn was working on behalf of at least one foreign government, as he was nominated for and confirmed to be national security adviser. Obama warned him, Sally Yates warned him. He asked Comey to go easy, because Flynn was such a great guy. And then fired Comey when he refused!

Manafort, his campaign manager, is a slimy, traitorous greed-freak. A two dollar Shanghai waterfront hooker is less of a whore. Hey, maybe Dipshit Donny didn't know! I can believe that, he is that stupid. Sure. A pass, due to cognitive shit-for-brains. Dumb as a bag of wet mice.

Shit, if Obama had done any one of these things, the Republican Senate would vote to put him in front of the Washington Monument before a firing squad that afternoon! And I'm leaving a whole bunch of shit out!

But hey! Let's just move on. I mean, really, what's the big deal, here?
And then, ONE day after a somewhat botched attempt to reinforce these valid points in front of the American people, Congress goes on recess for six frickin' weeks. Six weeks of Trump crowing bullshit about his TOTAL! EXONERATION! NO! COLLUSION! with no one around to provide rebuttal. And when Congress comes back in September? Fuhgeddaboudit, everyone will be talking about football then.

So, OK. I've gotta think the Mueller investigation is DOA; at best, it goes into the hopper for blending with all the other ongoing investigations that may or may not turn up something that finally swings momentum toward impeachment. But I am not...optimistic. *heavy sigh*

Last edited by El_Kabong; 07-26-2019 at 01:43 AM.
  #275  
Old 07-26-2019, 08:22 AM
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I rise to quibble. A small matter, perhaps, but that's the trouble with quibbles....

No "rebuttal"? The rebuttal has been made, it was not spectacular, it was not shattering, it was a dull and ordinary recitation of appalling fact. Mr Barr was full of shit. Très duh, mais non?

Such headlines as there are have been made, roughly the same dull thud as the disHon. Mr Barr impacted. Anyone who was affected by his avalanche of horseshit is likely impacted by this rebuttal in roughly the same degree. Almost certainly not more so, but roughly equal. Its not the thunderbolt that sets the bovine herd to stampede but we could never realistically depend on that. Which is to say, your idiot brother-in-law who read Barr's headline read this one. True, the cerebral vacuums under MAGA hats will not hear, but they would not hear the thunder nor see the bolt if it fried their collective butts.

Il Douche would have, and will, trumpet exoneration and vindication regardless. If Herod's Curse descended upon him from the Throne of the Almighty, he would claim the boils were the result of AOC planting poison ivy on his golf course. Nothing, but nothing! would alter his course. Brothers and sisters, pals and gals, perseverance furthers. Nothing guarantees success, but despair guarantees failure.

Dare we persist? We do dare, do dare, all the livelong day. Sic 'em!
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  #276  
Old 07-26-2019, 08:23 AM
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I don't give a flying fuck that Trump ultimately won't be removed from office through impeachment, but the democrats deciding not to impeach him is really depressing and is the reason why democrats will lose big in the 2020 elections. The legitimate outrage that spurred 2018 voters to show up is dismissed by the democratic leaders. No, people really don't want to hear about health care, education, blah, blah... that shit is boring. I want to vote for someone who will fight for goodness and what is right, not someone who is a puppet of the latest polls. Any (D) that says that infuriating line about "...but people don't want to hear about Trump, they want to hear about health care, about LBGT rights, about education" and therefore not expressing 100% outrage at the corruption of the Trump administration as being the #1 threat to our confidence in gov't, our image of the US, should just forfeit. You are not a gas station. You don't need to build your store right across the street from your competitor. Your competitor is in the worst part of town so all you are doing is making sure no one wants to visit your store.
I think you're right, and I agree with you. But remember that Hillary was viciously criticized for making that election all about Big Bad Trump and NOT about issues. OTOH maybe after 4 years of His Royal Doofusness, people WILL want to make 2020 a referendum on him. Who knows? The fact is, no one can figure out what the fickle electorate wants from minute to minute, let alone from year to year.
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  #277  
Old 07-26-2019, 09:06 AM
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Realistically, the Democrats should simply say that it's up to each side to police their own. Trying to do otherwise just makes the accusers not be believed, because they're the "enemy".

At such a point as the Republicans decide to stop being criminals, the Dems will be happy to vote to oust the crooks. Until that point, it's on them and the Dems are just going to do their job making law and practicing oversight.
  #278  
Old 07-26-2019, 09:23 AM
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I don't give a flying fuck that Trump ultimately won't be removed from office through impeachment, but the democrats deciding not to impeach him is really depressing and is the reason why democrats will lose big in the 2020 elections. The legitimate outrage that spurred 2018 voters to show up is dismissed by the democratic leaders. No, people really don't want to hear about health care, education, blah, blah... that shit is boring. I want to vote for someone who will fight for goodness and what is right, not someone who is a puppet of the latest polls. Any (D) that says that infuriating line about "...but people don't want to hear about Trump, they want to hear about health care, about LBGT rights, about education" and therefore not expressing 100% outrage at the corruption of the Trump administration as being the #1 threat to our confidence in gov't, our image of the US, should just forfeit. You are not a gas station. You don't need to build your store right across the street from your competitor. Your competitor is in the worst part of town so all you are doing is making sure no one wants to visit your store.
But the choice is very simple: vote for boring Democrats, or get four more years of Trump. This "I want a real progressive" purity bullshit is partly why we have Trump in the first place. See, it's not the parties that determine the fate of a democracy; it's the citizens themselves. The worst part about American democracy is the ignorance and apathy of the average voter.

Last edited by asahi; 07-26-2019 at 09:24 AM.
  #279  
Old 07-26-2019, 06:43 PM
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But the choice is very simple: vote for boring Democrats, or get four more years of Trump. This "I want a real progressive" purity bullshit is partly why we have Trump in the first place. See, it's not the parties that determine the fate of a democracy; it's the citizens themselves. The worst part about American democracy is the ignorance and apathy of the average voter.
2018 mid-terms, blue wave. Democrats, weak as always, decide not to rile up Trump supporters by not impeaching him. They still don't get it. His base will be out in full force on election day regardless of what they do. And now they'll lose and somehow look even weaker because they not only made a cowardly decision, but a completely wrong one. This has nothing to do with being a "real progressive" and everything to do with a party that will always cower and will never be confident about its own ideas.

Last edited by nate; 07-26-2019 at 06:43 PM.
  #280  
Old 07-26-2019, 07:29 PM
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Sure, passive and metrosexual Americans are attracted to Mr Roger's effete and soothing style but real Americans are naturally drawn to the direct, bold style of Vlad Tepes. When he says "Up yours!", there is no question, no doubt, this is a serious leader...
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  #281  
Old 07-26-2019, 07:53 PM
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N/m

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