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Old 07-28-2019, 02:31 PM
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A Democratic president and the border wall


Okay, so let's say the White House changes parties in 2020 or 2024. We've already got part or all of the border wall completed. (That certainly will take much longer than January 20, 2021). The Democratic challenger for the presidency was very much against the wall.

What does he or she do? Order it torn down? Order the immediate cessation of its construction?
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Old 07-28-2019, 03:01 PM
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We've already got part or all of the border wall completed.
Who told you this?
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Old 07-28-2019, 03:05 PM
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Who told you this?
I'm not saying that we currently have part or all of the border wall completed. I'm saying that in this hypothetical scenario, we have at least part of it completed. Might be all of it, if Trump wins a second term and is in office until January of '25.
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Old 07-28-2019, 03:19 PM
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Get construction to a safe stopping point (no hazards left) and prioritize use of funds earmarked to better humanely process and for more cost effective border management approaches.
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Old 07-28-2019, 03:21 PM
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Most likely order that there be a stoppage in wall building. Tearing down the existing wall, though, would backfire politically big time; it would be a waste of money and perceived as going too far.
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Old 07-28-2019, 03:21 PM
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If Congress has funded the wall it might lead to a lawsuit from Congress if a president decides to stop building it. (assuming the house or senate is GOP and the president is a Dem)
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Old 07-28-2019, 04:13 PM
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I think the OP has a fundamental misunderstanding of what actually exists along the border.

There is a physical barrier along much of the border where it makes sense. This is mostly, though not entirely, in urban areas. El Paso and Brownsville, for example are bifurcated cities with a strong barrier running through the hearts of their cities. Imagine the downtown area of your favorite major city. Now, imagine a steel fence/wall running through the city. That is what exists in EP/Juarez and Brownsville/Matamoros.

Other areas have natural barriers like mountains, a river, or a desert.

All the Trump administration has done is repaired and maintained existing barrier. Very little to no new barrier has been constructed. The wall is purely a rhetorical device used by Trump to further his "us and them" message. The wall as described by Trump will never be built and has never intended to be built. All a new administration will have to do to stop the wall is to stop talking about it.
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Old 07-28-2019, 04:14 PM
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Most likely order that there be a stoppage in wall building. Tearing down the existing wall, though, would backfire politically big time; it would be a waste of money and perceived as going too far.
Most Democrats would support it. Republicans would get on board if you said you melted it down to make more cages for children. No need to follow through on the cages; they've demonstrated they aren't sticklers for what exactly gets built or doesn't.
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Old 07-28-2019, 04:26 PM
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Tearing down the existing wall, though, would backfire politically big time; it would be a waste of money and perceived as going too far.
Not tearing it down would be worse; it would be a permanent monument to the ego and racism of a monster.

Heck, when the photos and evidence of the GOP's level of inhumanity and duplicitousness are finally able to be presented to the world, I suspect there will be strong support for tearing down the pre-existing barriers.
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Old 07-28-2019, 05:08 PM
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I think the OP has a fundamental misunderstanding of what actually exists along the border. ... The wall as described by Trump will never be built and has never intended to be built. All a new administration will have to do to stop the wall is to stop talking about it.
Then the Sierra Club really is without standing as is argued? No potential harm to their interests if no new wall is actually planned or intended to be built ever.

Anyhoo ... the op is a hypothetical. IF new wall is being built by the time the, hypothetically, Democratic candidate gets sworn in, how should they handle it? IF.

Yes yes we know that construction so far has not been new wall but repairs and replacements to current structures, and that the value of The Wall is to whip up his base and to control the conversation. But it is an IF thing ... don't wanna play don't y'know?
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Old 07-28-2019, 06:30 PM
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In some areas there's a lot of local opposition to the wall; either to the wall in general or to specific siting, or both. I think taking back down any wall that had been built in such areas would get a lot of support.

Hey -- we're going to give you back access to your back pastures, to your grandmother's house, to your customers! Apologies for all that damage to your garden or historic church, but would you like a job helping to take it back down?
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Old 07-28-2019, 07:12 PM
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I'm not saying that we currently have part or all of the border wall completed. I'm saying that in this hypothetical scenario, we have at least part of it completed. Might be all of it, if Trump wins a second term and is in office until January of '25.
I honestly don't think Trump will be capable of more than drooling at a TV set in 2025. More likely he is dead from a stroke or heart attack, or is in the final stages of severe dementia.
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Old 07-28-2019, 08:57 PM
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In some areas there's a lot of local opposition to the wall; either to the wall in general or to specific siting, or both. I think taking back down any wall that had been built in such areas would get a lot of support. ...
And where actual ongoing harms are caused by it that makes sense. But taking it fully down costs money and resources of a finite pool. Just like building the idiotic thing would. Wouldn’t it be better spent on improving conditions for asylum seekers and smarter technology that improves security?

Doing something just to pander to what some people want is how this thing became a thing. Thanks
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Old 07-28-2019, 10:02 PM
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Hang a sign on it saying "Trump's Folly".
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Old 07-28-2019, 10:28 PM
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The wall is an eyesore, and defending it is a bad look. The government can pay to defend it (no), pay to take it down in a controlled fashion, or just let private citizens dismantle it & sell it for scrap (which is probably fine in some places but might be more trouble than we want where it's in/by nature reserves).
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Old 07-28-2019, 10:32 PM
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Tear every inch of it down.
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Old 07-29-2019, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by foolsguinea View Post
The wall is an eyesore, and defending it is a bad look. The government can pay to defend it (no), pay to take it down in a controlled fashion, or just let private citizens dismantle it & sell it for scrap (which is probably fine in some places but might be more trouble than we want where it's in/by nature reserves).
It would really need to come out of the nature reserves, though. One of the multiple major reasons not to build the thing is that it would prevent essential movement of already-endangered species.
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Old 07-29-2019, 09:10 AM
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Not tearing it down would be worse; it would be a permanent monument to the ego and racism of a monster.
It will decay over time, and I'd rather that the hundreds of millions of dollars that would be required for such a demolition project be used to, I don't know, give asylum seekers humane treatment.
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Old 07-29-2019, 10:07 AM
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The wall is an eyesore,
Do you have any pictures of this wall, so we can make a determination for ourselves.
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Old 07-29-2019, 10:11 AM
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Do you have any pictures of this wall, so we can make a determination for ourselves.
https://barrie360.com/wp-content/upl...er-400x200.jpg
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Old 07-29-2019, 10:18 AM
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Not tearing it down would be worse; it would be a permanent monument to the ego and racism of a monster.

Heck, when the photos and evidence of the GOP's level of inhumanity and duplicitousness are finally able to be presented to the world, I suspect there will be strong support for tearing down the pre-existing barriers.
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Anyhoo ... the op is a hypothetical. IF new wall is being built by the time the, hypothetically, Democratic candidate gets sworn in, how should they handle it? IF.

Lean into the "permanent monument to the ego and racism of a monster" part. Make The Wall into The Billboard. Commission immigrant artists to cover every north-facing inch of it with depictions of the inhumane acts that Trump and GOP are inspiring and allowing. Pictures of kids in cages, pictures of ICE goons harassing people on the street, quotes of every stupid, racist thing any of them have ever said. All in letters 10 feet high, and bright colors that can be seen from afar.
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Old 07-29-2019, 12:26 PM
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It will decay over time, and I'd rather that the hundreds of millions of dollars that would be required for such a demolition project be used to, I don't know, give asylum seekers humane treatment.
Yeah, just quit maintaining it, and between vandals and natural decay it will soon degrade into a fitting monument for the Trump presidency. For those who feel it needs to be taken down now, they sell crowbars and metal cutting saws at home depot. Feel free to have at it. Far more satisfying for the wall to be taken down democratically.
  #23  
Old 07-29-2019, 02:24 PM
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Assess the merits of each section of the wall independently. Weigh the benefits & costs of maintenance vs. continued construction vs. abandoning vs. tearing it down. Each of those factors will be different for different parts of the wall.
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Old 07-29-2019, 02:34 PM
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That's interesting because according to this thread:

Zero miles of new border wall built since Trump took office

So was the section of the wall at the Tijuana border in the picture, built by the Obama administration or an earlier administration?
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Old 07-29-2019, 02:36 PM
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That's interesting because according to this thread:

Zero miles of new border wall built since Trump took office

So was the section of the wall at the Tijuana border in the picture, built by the Obama administration or an earlier administration?
I don't have an answer to this question, but you didn't ask for a picture of a wall specifically built during the Trump administration.
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Old 07-29-2019, 06:03 PM
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ekedolphin (OP) asks what should be done with the wall that Trump builds.

foolsguinea says it (the wall that Trump builds) is an eyesore, meaning that he's seen it.

I ask for a picture of it.

CarnalK posts a picture of a wall near the Tijuana/San Diego border, which was not built by the Trump administration.

So, what wall are we talking about? The wall that the Trump administration built? Or any border wall between the US and Mexico that may have been erected by various previous administrations, Democrats and Republicans alike?
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Old 07-29-2019, 06:26 PM
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We're talking about the one Trump promised Mexico would pay for in order to win the votes of cowards, rubes, and simpletons.
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Old 07-29-2019, 06:51 PM
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ekedolphin (OP) asks what should be done with the wall that Trump builds.

foolsguinea says it (the wall that Trump builds) is an eyesore, meaning that he's seen it.

I ask for a picture of it.

CarnalK posts a picture of a wall near the Tijuana/San Diego border, which was not built by the Trump administration.

So, what wall are we talking about? The wall that the Trump administration built? Or any border wall between the US and Mexico that may have been erected by various previous administrations, Democrats and Republicans alike?
You think Trump's wall is going to wrapped in gold foil or something?
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Old 07-29-2019, 07:05 PM
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I ask for a picture of it.
Well, there's this:

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/imm...r-wall-n813346

but apparently those didn't work out so well, so they're not going to use them:

https://www.npr.org/2019/02/27/69862...or-new-fencing

and from that link:

Quote:
Border Patrol officials in South Texas, where 88 miles of new fence construction is currently planned, have been quietly saying they plan to follow the conventional barrier design — 18-foot hollow steel bollards filled with concrete and rebar.
So it sounds like a photo of existing wall is likely to be as accurate as any.

Personally, I've got trouble imagining any version that wouldn't be an eyesore. But people's ideas of what's an eyesore vary.
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Old 07-29-2019, 07:13 PM
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I'm sure Omar knows perfectly well that any border wall will be an eyesore. He just couldn't pass up a verb tense mistake cause it's so damn snaekable.
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Old 07-29-2019, 07:55 PM
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foolsguinea says it (the wall that Trump builds) is an eyesore, meaning that he's seen it.
Fine. The hypothetical Trump-built barrier will be an eyesore.

I have seen multiple reports of new sections of palisade that have started construction, despite what you may have been told. But even if all that construction has somehow been halted, certainly the barrier between San Diego & Tijuana is a big ugly fence, and any barrier between Texas and the river is an eyesore by definition.

Last edited by foolsguinea; 07-29-2019 at 07:59 PM.
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Old 07-29-2019, 08:01 PM
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And yes, all the border barriers are eyesores, because they are an insult to this continent and its people. But if you prefer, I can be less coy and just call them all abominations.
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Old 07-29-2019, 09:03 PM
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Why are all border barriers an insult to this continent and its people?

The specific additional physical barriers proposed by Trump are a waste of money and an ineffective method to achieve the goals of preventing goods (legal or illegal in nature) or people entering illegally. The current nature of those entries likely doesn't even justify the lesser expense of more "smart technology" approaches, and the money can be much better spent in a variety of other ways.

But the very idea of preventing illegal entry of people and goods, which by definition means a functional barrier even if not a physical one, is something that you think insults the very continent and its people?

As one of the people of this continent I am not insulted by that. And the data is pretty clear that most Americans are not.
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Old 07-30-2019, 03:17 AM
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Where do you live? Chicago? I see. Yeah.

Imagine someone decided Wisconsin desperately had to be walled off. Imagine someone in Texas decided you needed a big wall between Illinois & Wisconsin, in order to control the movement of...something, I don't know, lager or cheese.

How insulted would Chicagoland feel?
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Old 07-30-2019, 06:46 AM
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Imagine aardvarks ate rats. How insulted would the Golden Gate Bridge feel?

And what dressing goes best with word salad?

Enforced borders are not inherently evil or "insulting". They are even sometimes in everyone's best interests. Say like the fence that kept my dogs in my yard so they could play safely and not mess up my neighbor's yards or the one that keeps kids from going into a pool uninvited and unsupervised.

You really don't agree with that? Seriously the only other time I've heard that position taken is as false presentation of what liberals think by conservatives.
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Old 07-30-2019, 08:49 AM
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Yeah, but couldn't it be a nice hedgerow with some flower covered arbors sprinkled around?
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Old 07-30-2019, 09:57 AM
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My round-a-bout questioning is that most of you have no idea what is happening in the real world (ignorance abounds, even here).

Someone starts a thread about tearing down the Trump wall after his administration leaves, many posters pile on, even posting pictures of the supposed eyesore Trump wall.

There is no Trump wall.
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Old 07-30-2019, 10:01 AM
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I know perfectly well what's going on in the world and that the pic I posted was from a longstanding section of wall. I just thought your smartass question deserved an obtuse reply.
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Old 07-30-2019, 10:10 AM
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I would like to see volunteers permitted to destroy the wall. I would like to see signs along the border with poetry, including, ""Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
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Old 07-30-2019, 10:47 AM
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My round-a-bout questioning is that most of you have no idea what is happening in the real world (ignorance abounds, even here).

Someone starts a thread about tearing down the Trump wall after his administration leaves, many posters pile on, even posting pictures of the supposed eyesore Trump wall.

There is no Trump wall.
We thank you for your sacrifice and your service.

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I would like to see volunteers permitted to destroy the wall. I would like to see signs along the border with poetry, including, ""Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
"Mr. Shitgibbon, tear down this wall!"
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Old 07-30-2019, 10:52 AM
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"Mr. Shitgibbon, tear down this wall!"
Totes stealing.
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Old 07-30-2019, 11:19 AM
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My round-a-bout questioning is that most of you have no idea what is happening in the real world (ignorance abounds, even here).

Someone starts a thread about tearing down the Trump wall after his administration leaves, many posters pile on, even posting pictures of the supposed eyesore Trump wall.

There is no Trump wall.
The best answer to the OP was that all a future Democrat president has to do about "Trump's wall" is to simply stop talking about the imaginary wall. Because there isn't one.

Drum God
nailed it already in post #7:

Quote:
The wall is purely a rhetorical device used by Trump to further his "us and them" message. The wall as described by Trump will never be built and has never intended to be built. All a new administration will have to do to stop the wall is to stop talking about it.
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Old 07-30-2019, 11:26 AM
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The best answer to the OP was that all a future Democrat president has to do about "Trump's wall" is to simply stop talking about the imaginary wall. Because there isn't one.

Drum God
nailed it already in post #7:
Agree
  #44  
Old 07-30-2019, 12:42 PM
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Part of the wall (although only a tiny bit) is being built by Steve Bannon using crowdfunding.
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Old 07-30-2019, 01:19 PM
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I Enforced borders are not inherently evil or "insulting". They are even sometimes in everyone's best interests. Say like the fence that kept my dogs in my yard so they could play safely and not mess up my neighbor's yards or the one that keeps kids from going into a pool uninvited and unsupervised.
Most places have regulations limiting neighborhood fencing. Would your area let you put one in 30' tall? How about one of any height that cut across the main road between your neighbors and the grocery store? Your neighbors' house and their back yard? The local wildlife refuge?

Wildlife necessities aside for the moment: there are multiple communities that over the last several hundred years have grown up along that line, with people moving reasonably freely across the line on a day to day basis, and without disaster occuring to the USA because of this; and also many properties entirely within the USA that are currently on both sides of where a wall would have to go, as no wall can be built precisely on the border line in all areas.

Quote:
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There is no Trump wall.
We know that.

We would like that to continue. Trump, at least judging both by his public statements and by his attempts to force us all to spend money on it, would not.

Some of those posting in this thread are answering the hypothetical in the OP. It seems quite common on these boards to start threads with a hypothetical that's contrary to current fact. Others posting in the thread may respond to the hypothetical while fully aware that it's contrary to fact.
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Old 07-30-2019, 01:38 PM
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Thorny did you read the context?

Are ALL border barriers abominations by their very nature?

Not just the ones proposed by Trump but ALL.
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Old 07-30-2019, 01:49 PM
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Part of the wall (although only a tiny bit) is being built by Steve Bannon using crowdfunding.
Sounds good, we'll do crowdfunding to pay for the catering for all the people that show up to tear it down.
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Old 07-31-2019, 09:31 AM
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Nm

Last edited by WillFarnaby; 07-31-2019 at 09:33 AM.
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Old 07-31-2019, 10:09 AM
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Thorny did you read the context?

Are ALL border barriers abominations by their very nature?

Not just the ones proposed by Trump but ALL.
Yes, I read the context.

The context is this quote and all the rest of this thread:


Quote:
Originally Posted by foolsguinea View Post
And yes, all the border barriers are eyesores, because they are an insult to this continent and its people. But if you prefer, I can be less coy and just call them all abominations.
and in the context of this thread, "the border barriers" (bolding mine) obviously refers to the ones being proposed by Trump. It could possibly be taken to mean in addition the similarly constructed ones already in place. Taking it to mean "ALL border barriers" in any possible location and of any possible design is what's taking it out of context.
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Old 07-31-2019, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
and in the context of this thread, "the border barriers" (bolding mine) obviously refers to the ones being proposed by Trump. It could possibly be taken to mean in addition the similarly constructed ones already in place. Taking it to mean "ALL border barriers" in any possible location and of any possible design is what's taking it out of context.
I disagree, this is not obvious by context. Especially because it is hard to understand how Trump's walls "are an insult to this continent and its people" but walls built before Trump are not insults.
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