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  #151  
Old 05-24-2018, 03:06 PM
begbert2 begbert2 is offline
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Originally Posted by Ashtura View Post
Hey, I don't watch football, don't go to church, and guess what, I don't have cable and watch Fox News! But I am familiar enough with the proceedings to realize this outrage was not necessarily artificially manufactured. Begbert claims this was misinterpreted by "confused morons". Well, maybe that is true. I am not going to dispute that claim. But part of being a good communicator is knowing your audience, and if you know there are morons out there, maybe you shouldn't have a muddled message that requires reading interviews to get the full context, and is easy fodder for detractors.
My main point is the message wasn't muddled - and if it was, the direction of the confusion wouldn't seem to lean towards "he's being disrespectful!", because that's a bizarre interpretation of kneeling. Honestly, if I had seen the initial event (which I didn't, of course), I would either think "Huh, that's weird. Is he confused?" or "That's an odd time to choose to tie your shoe."

Leaping to "he's disrespectful" would seem to me to suggest that merely by existing the player was being respectful, and drawing attention to himself makes it worse. Which is to say, extreme racism. (Which is raising the question of why they watch a sport with such a large percentage of black players, but whatever.)

It's only considered disrespectful now because the "kneeling is somehow disrespectful!" message has been trumpeted far and wide by shitheads in the far-right media. Prior to all that shit-pouring deliberately warping the optics, it would be a really odd leap to make.
  #152  
Old 05-24-2018, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Grrr! View Post
So is flipping off the flag the flag and kneeling before the flag completely the same thing to you?


Seriously, this whole "Black people aren't protesting right" thing is getting a little old.
Where do you get the idea that flipping things off is disrespectful? I mean when people are sworn in to office they put their whole hand up. Is that five times as disrespectful as one middle finger up? Besides people make hand gestures all the time without it being disrespectful, when military people salute with their hands is that disrespectful? What about when people make the sign of the cross at church, are they being disrespectful?
Obviously anyone who thinks that flipping someone off is disrespectful is a constitution hating racist.
  #153  
Old 05-24-2018, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by puddleglum View Post
Where do you get the idea that flipping things off is disrespectful? I mean when people are sworn in to office they put their whole hand up. Is that five times as disrespectful as one middle finger up? Besides people make hand gestures all the time without it being disrespectful, when military people salute with their hands is that disrespectful? What about when people make the sign of the cross at church, are they being disrespectful?
Obviously anyone who thinks that flipping someone off is disrespectful is a constitution hating racist.
I guess you think you are making a point here?
  #154  
Old 05-24-2018, 03:22 PM
Ashtura Ashtura is offline
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Hey, you sort of forgot to address any of the three points I brought up which(btw) had nothing to do with Fox News, cable, or going to church.
I've already addressed them in other posts. I don't need to reiterate them every time you post. But, I'm in a generous mood.
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It hasn't been a tradition for players for that long, and it has already been explained to you how it started.
I know how it started. My perception of this is completely irrelevant. What I am saying is poor messaging happened here, and played a big part in why the NLF is about to start fining. Pissed off at cops abusing black people? Go to a police station known for abusing people and chant and hold protest signs. You know, stuff even a moron can understand.

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Kneeling was a sign of prayer, not disrespect, until this kerfluffle.
Irrelevant, since it is known by even small children that one is expected to stand, not kneel, during the national anthem. You guys keep conflating the national anthem with church, funerals, the pledge allegiance, and god knows what else, but you're still conflating.

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If you've got a better explanation for this manufactured disrespect, I'd like to hear it.
As I've said before, I don't think it was entirely manufactured, and I think it was partially self inflicted.
  #155  
Old 05-24-2018, 03:23 PM
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Since this is a new thing, where did you get the idea that he was doing it to disrespect anything, up to and including the national anthem and the flag? He said why he was doing it-do you believe he was lying about his intentions?

Opting out of a ritual designed to show respect to something is a calculated way to show disrespect. It is obvious. If he said different he is lying.
He did it to cause controversy so his political views would get more publicity. That was his intention.
  #156  
Old 05-24-2018, 03:30 PM
Ashtura Ashtura is offline
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My main point is the message wasn't muddled - and if it was, the direction of the confusion wouldn't seem to lean towards "he's being disrespectful!", because that's a bizarre interpretation of kneeling. Honestly, if I had seen the initial event (which I didn't, of course), I would either think "Huh, that's weird. Is he confused?" or "That's an odd time to choose to tie your shoe."

Leaping to "he's disrespectful" would seem to me to suggest that merely by existing the player was being respectful, and drawing attention to himself makes it worse. Which is to say, extreme racism. (Which is raising the question of why they watch a sport with such a large percentage of black players, but whatever.)

It's only considered disrespectful now because the "kneeling is somehow disrespectful!" message has been trumpeted far and wide by shitheads in the far-right media. Prior to all that shit-pouring deliberately warping the optics, it would be a really odd leap to make.
What the hell dude? I don't watch football, but before this were fans booing black players for no reason whatsoever any time in this century? They were booed AFTER kneeling, the FIRST TIME, and not once, to my knowledge, before that. It had nothing to do with "merely existing." So your confusion might be "why is tying his shoes?", but that's you. I think it's a fairly easy leap "for morons" from "Please stand for the National Anthem" to "I'm going to kneel instead" as a form of disrespect. It's muddled. If a 4th grader doesn't immediately understand your message, it's probably not a good message to be spreading on national television.

Last edited by Ashtura; 05-24-2018 at 03:33 PM.
  #157  
Old 05-24-2018, 03:32 PM
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Whack-a-Mole Whack-a-Mole is offline
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Originally Posted by puddleglum View Post
Opting out of a ritual designed to show respect to something is a calculated way to show disrespect. It is obvious. If he said different he is lying.
He did it to cause controversy so his political views would get more publicity. That was his intention.
Brings to mind:

"Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious." ~Oscar Wilde
  #158  
Old 05-24-2018, 03:37 PM
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What the hell dude? I don't watch football, but before this were fans booing black players for no reason whatsoever any time in this century? They were booed AFTER kneeling, the FIRST TIME, and not once, to my knowledge, before that. It had nothing to do with "merely existing." So your confusion might be "why is tying his shoes?", but that's you. I think it's a fairly easy leap "for morons" from "Please stand for the National Anthem" to "I'm going to kneel instead" as a form of disrespect. It's muddled. If a 4th grader doesn't immediately understand your message, it's probably not a good message to be spreading on national television.
Why was knelling NOT disrespectful before this widely publicized incident?
  #159  
Old 05-24-2018, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by puddleglum View Post
Opting out of a ritual designed to show respect to something is a calculated way to show disrespect. It is obvious. If he said different he is lying.
He did it to cause controversy so his political views would get more publicity. That was his intention.
No it’s not. It’s not disrespectful to choose not to participate in a ritual, be it religious, nationalistic, virtue signaling, etc that one does not agree with. What Kaepernick did vis kneeling should have been more or less ignored. It wasn’t offensive and it was actually brave. Now you may disagree with his message or stance. That’s your right as well.

But ascribing motives or financially ruining/harming a person over a difference in point of view is disturbing and dangerous. The sad thing is that is now the accepted way of handling differences of opinion.
  #160  
Old 05-24-2018, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Ashtura View Post
I think it's a fairly easy leap "for morons" from "Please stand for the National Anthem" to "I'm going to kneel instead" as a form of disrespect. It's muddled. If a 4th grader doesn't immediately understand your message, it's probably not a good message to be spreading on national television.
I wonder if these same people view flying the Confederate flag as disrespectful to the US? After all, it is the flag of treason against the US. I'm willing to bet they don't see it that way.
  #161  
Old 05-24-2018, 03:43 PM
begbert2 begbert2 is offline
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Irrelevant, since it is known by even small children that one is expected to stand, not kneel, during the national anthem. You guys keep conflating the national anthem with church, funerals, the pledge allegiance, and god knows what else, but you're still conflating.
So everybody knows that not standing is disrespectful, huh?

What about sitting? I think we've established that people don't think that's disrespectful - at least not enough to boo. Despite the fact it's not standing.

That kind of destroys your entire point, by the way.

Kneeling would be, upon the first sighting of it, quite odd. It's not a common action to take during the anthem (unlike, say, staying seated), so it's surprising, and draws attention to itself. But there's nothing about kneeling itself that's disrespectful. Prior to the right wing bullshit-spouting, there was no set interpretation of it at all. By default it would have the same meaning as other forms of not-standing, such as sitting: not particularly offensive at all.

However, the kneeling was a black man drawing attention to himself. Which extremely racist people don't like, on principle.

So you're right - I was probably incorrect in saying that the majority of the booing was due to the booers being (merely) stupid. It was, in actual fact, probably the case that every single person booing was a piece of shit racist.

Initially.

After the initial event, the piece of shit racists heading up the right wing news/bullshit/optics outlets got a hold of this and, noticing that it was in fact a peaceful and respectful protest by and for black people, deliberately changed the optics to them dirty blacks are disrespecting the flags and troops and country and probably kill cops and soldiers for fun!

So now the set of 'booers' has been expanded from 'just racists' to 'racists and people influenced by right wing media'.

Last edited by begbert2; 05-24-2018 at 03:44 PM.
  #162  
Old 05-24-2018, 03:45 PM
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I guess you think you are making a point here?
It is a dumb argument. If you polled Americans before this and asked if not standing during an anthem meant disrespect 92% would have said yes. But because it is somehow a partisan issue now, some people insist on trying to gaslight us and claim a gesture everyone understands in context has a different meaning because it is sometimes used to mean other things in different context.
Its not like this is some obscure social convention that no one know about. Two students in Hong Kong were kicked out of a graduation ceremony for not showing respect for staying seated for the national anthem.
A woman in Australia was charged with disrespect behavior for not standing when the judge entered the court.
A democrat senator accused others of disrespect for not standing for the president during the SOTU.
A man in the Phillipines was arrested for not standing for the national anthem before a movie.
A poet in Jamaica was accused of disrespect for not standing for the opening of the legislature.
Two students in India were accused of disrespect for not standing for the national anthem.
Democrats were accused of disrespect by a victim's father for not standing during a portion of the SOTU.
Vice President Pence accused of disrespect for not standing during Korean olympic entrance.

Not standing during a time of ceremonial respect is a sign of deliberate disrespect that is universal and understood by everyone. Pretending it is not is just arguing in bad faith or insulting our intelligence.
  #163  
Old 05-24-2018, 03:48 PM
begbert2 begbert2 is offline
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It is a dumb argument. If you polled Americans before this and asked if not standing during an anthem meant disrespect 92% would have said yes. But because it is somehow a partisan issue now, some people insist on trying to gaslight us and claim a gesture everyone understands in context has a different meaning because it is sometimes used to mean other things in different context.
Its not like this is some obscure social convention that no one know about. Two students in Hong Kong were kicked out of a graduation ceremony for not showing respect for staying seated for the national anthem.
A woman in Australia was charged with disrespect behavior for not standing when the judge entered the court.
A democrat senator accused others of disrespect for not standing for the president during the SOTU.
A man in the Phillipines was arrested for not standing for the national anthem before a movie.
A poet in Jamaica was accused of disrespect for not standing for the opening of the legislature.
Two students in India were accused of disrespect for not standing for the national anthem.
Democrats were accused of disrespect by a victim's father for not standing during a portion of the SOTU.
Vice President Pence accused of disrespect for not standing during Korean olympic entrance.

Not standing during a time of ceremonial respect is a sign of deliberate disrespect that is universal and understood by everyone. Pretending it is not is just arguing in bad faith or insulting our intelligence.
Is kneeling worse than sitting?
  #164  
Old 05-24-2018, 03:48 PM
Ashtura Ashtura is offline
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Why was knelling NOT disrespectful before this widely publicized incident?
Do you not understand the difference between standing and kneeling? You are expected to stand during the national anthem. I assume I don't need to spell out the dictionary definition of what standing is. Small children understand this. Why can't you?

It is not inherently disrespectful to do a LOT of things that are not called for the occasion, but could CERTAINLY be easily perceived that way. Shall we name ones for church, funerals, etc., since we seem to be fond of making comparisons?

Last edited by Ashtura; 05-24-2018 at 03:49 PM.
  #165  
Old 05-24-2018, 03:51 PM
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Maybe people are upset that the last freakin tradition where americans stood in solidarity for a few moments was going down the crapper. But no, it HAS be be about race, doesn't it?
If a football game is somehow all that stands between the solidarity and dissolution, we have far bigger problems than a man kneeling at the national anthem. And yes, it is unquestionably about race. If a white player had ‘taken the knee’ in respect to fallen veterans, or to bring attention to the opioid crisis, or any of a number non-contraversial issues, there would not be any perception that this was disrespecting the flag or veterans or the country. And the nonsense claim that his is ‘bad optics’ is equivalent to claiming that blacks should just protest quietly from the back of the bus instead of insisting on sitting up front.

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  #166  
Old 05-24-2018, 03:58 PM
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It's not the anthem, it's the performer they get to scream the words it into a microphone. Besides, we'd all stand for the anthem at the SDSU games, and just after the "bombs bursting in air" verse, we'd loudly sing "Boom, Boom, Boom." I don't know why the players don't do that.
  #167  
Old 05-24-2018, 04:00 PM
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So everybody knows that not standing is disrespectful, huh?

What about sitting? I think we've established that people don't think that's disrespectful - at least not enough to boo. Despite the fact it's not standing.

That kind of destroys your entire point, by the way.

Kneeling would be, upon the first sighting of it, quite odd. It's not a common action to take during the anthem (unlike, say, staying seated), so it's surprising, and draws attention to itself. But there's nothing about kneeling itself that's disrespectful. Prior to the right wing bullshit-spouting, there was no set interpretation of it at all. By default it would have the same meaning as other forms of not-standing, such as sitting: not particularly offensive at all.

However, the kneeling was a black man drawing attention to himself. Which extremely racist people don't like, on principle.

So you're right - I was probably incorrect in saying that the majority of the booing was due to the booers being (merely) stupid. It was, in actual fact, probably the case that every single person booing was a piece of shit racist.

Initially.

After the initial event, the piece of shit racists heading up the right wing news/bullshit/optics outlets got a hold of this and, noticing that it was in fact a peaceful and respectful protest by and for black people, deliberately changed the optics to them dirty blacks are disrespecting the flags and troops and country and probably kill cops and soldiers for fun!

So now the set of 'booers' has been expanded from 'just racists' to 'racists and people influenced by right wing media'.
What's being destroyed is your ability to be consistent. I agreed with you that the booers were morons, and now they can't just be morons, they have to be thousands of racist pieces of shit. Because now you have to be racist, not just stupid, to misunderstand abstract protesting. Jesus, I'm done.

Last edited by Ashtura; 05-24-2018 at 04:01 PM.
  #168  
Old 05-24-2018, 04:01 PM
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Maybe people are upset that the last freakin tradition where americans stood in solidarity for a few moments was going down the crapper. But no, it HAS be be about race, doesn't it?
Black people unjustly having their lives taken from them by police is about race, yes. That's this whole thing if you have somehow missed the origin.

ETA: I see you seem to know the origin, but are still confused. Okay, have a good one.

Last edited by bobot; 05-24-2018 at 04:04 PM.
  #169  
Old 05-24-2018, 04:06 PM
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What's being destroyed is your ability to be consistent. I agreed with you that the booers were probably morons, and now they can't just be morons, they have to be thousands of racist pieces of shit. Because now you have to be racist, not just stupid, to misunderstand abstract protesting. Jesus, I'm done.
I formally apologize to all the morons in the world for jumping the gun and blaming their ilk for starting this racist shit. Morons have fallen for the lies about this racist shit, but it's quite likely that they didn't start it. Innocent confusion wouldn't generate all that many boos. (As you presumably would have pointed out if you didn't prefer the "morons" guess to the more accurate "racists" conclusion.)

The proof in this case is sitting. All this harping on how "not standing" is disrespectful is (willfully and deliberately) ignoring that people have "not stood" a lot and not elicited this sort of response. The only real plausible explanation for this hullabaloo is racists hating black people for drawing attention to themselves and their causes.

And the gullible falling for the racists' bullshit optics about it.
  #170  
Old 05-24-2018, 04:07 PM
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. . .ALL that matters is perception. . .
Well, not all. . .

I've been on the side of the players from the beginning. I do believe it was not intended to be disrespectful. I have never been offended by their protest. I do not think the league should penalize the protestors.

but

Ashtura has point. The intention is irrelevant when considering offense. Feelings are never invalid.
If I tell a joke and you take offense does it matter that I meant no offense?
If I comment inappropriately on how you look, but I meant it in a good way, does that mean I have not harassed you if you feel harassed?
President Trump and Ashtura and others were offended by the protests, and those feelings are just as valid as my non-offense.
I do not agree that the protests are inherently offensive, just because you feel offended doesn't mean everyone should. Kneeling has never (before) been viewed as disrespectful, but I have to recognize that some where offended.
Your offense, however, does not put you on the moral high ground; does not make you a better American than me. The players are not, likewise, un-American because they chose to protest in a way that rankled you.

As Grrr! said perceptions don't change if they are not challenged, and when you challenge you run the risk of offending.
It's the most American of traditions.

mc
  #171  
Old 05-24-2018, 04:10 PM
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By the way, I'd like to thank the opponents of kneeling for participating in this discussion. The true reasons behind their ire were never really clear to me until I saw their terrible arguments and the one specific issue that they're all dancing around. I'd never looked close enough at this until now to realize that opposition to the kneeling protests truly is all just antiamerican/racist bullshit.


(What? I don't pay attention to football. This stuff hasn't really been on my radar.)
  #172  
Old 05-24-2018, 04:11 PM
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What's being destroyed is your ability to be consistent. I agreed with you that the booers were morons, and now they can't just be morons, they have to be thousands of racist pieces of shit. Because now you have to be racist, not just stupid, to misunderstand abstract protesting.
The thing is it is not abstract protesting. Maybe it was abstract for the first few minutes but people got on to the reason pretty fast.

And yeah, they are racists pieces of shit because they choose to completely ignore what the players are on about by kneeling and instead act shocked...SHOCKED!...at the disrespect to the United States of America! Nevermind when these players tell them what it is about and that they love their country. Doesn't matter! Kneeling is disrespect! I am hard pressed to see how that is animated by anything other than racism (whether they recognize it or not).
  #173  
Old 05-24-2018, 04:19 PM
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I agreed with you that the booers were morons, and now they can't just be morons, they have to be thousands of racist pieces of shit. Because now you have to be racist, not just stupid, to misunderstand abstract protesting.
It doesn't really matter what was motivating the folks booing the black athletes, it's the perception that's important.
  #174  
Old 05-24-2018, 04:21 PM
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Boo-ya!
(And I don't use that phrase lightly. I'm not sure if I've ever used it, actually.)
  #175  
Old 05-24-2018, 04:22 PM
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It was never all that abstract, of course. It was a little abstract in the sense that he wasn't holding up a sign that said "By the way, please don't shoot black people", but no rational person would ever consider kneeling to be more disrespectful to the country than sitting - until some racist told them it was, anyway.
  #176  
Old 05-24-2018, 04:50 PM
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As for staying in the locker room - that's how it was years ago, so what's the big deal now? Assuming there's nothing else players are missing, then to hell with it.
That's why I'd like to see them stay in there until the NFL comes to their senses. No players on the fields = no games, and players in the locker rooms = no room for scabs. The NFL would be scrambling to find alternate venues for scabs or decide that there's not really a problem after all.

Last edited by Skywatcher; 05-24-2018 at 04:51 PM.
  #177  
Old 05-24-2018, 05:00 PM
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If the players all stay in the locker room, will the public reaction really be any different at this point?
  #178  
Old 05-24-2018, 05:05 PM
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If the players all stay in the locker room, will the public reaction really be any different at this point?
I imagine a not-insignificant number would be upset about not being able to watch their games. Especially season ticket holders.

Last edited by Skywatcher; 05-24-2018 at 05:06 PM.
  #179  
Old 05-24-2018, 05:07 PM
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If the players all stay in the locker room, will the public reaction really be any different at this point?
I think the proposal is of the 'hyuk hyuk they don't come out to play at all' variety - which is amusing for us non-sports-goers to think about, but would probably result in some kind of legal action against the players if actually attempted, due to them refusing to honor their contracts and do their jobs.

And since the entire and complete goal* of all this hullabaloo to get those protesting black people out of sight I imagine they'll go easier on players that hide in the locker room since that's a preferred behavior over visible protesting, albeit not as optimal as just playing along.


* Of the ire-raisers who actually have a goal
  #180  
Old 05-24-2018, 05:08 PM
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If I tell a joke and you take offense does it matter that I meant no offense?
Well, yes. If you are looking to take offense to anything I say, and I say something like, "Traffic is so bad, even a chicken couldn't cross the road." And you choose to find a way to twist my words to "justify" your offense, then it does matter that I didn't mean any offense.
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If I comment inappropriately on how you look, but I meant it in a good way, does that mean I have not harassed you if you feel harassed?
Well, there, you put the word "inappropriately", so no, and you didn't mean it in a good way. If however, it was not innapropriate, and you still take offense then I have not harassed you, even if you choose o twist my words to justify yourself feeling that way.
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President Trump and Ashtura and others were offended by the protests, and those feelings are just as valid as my non-offense.
Sure they were. If trump, Ashura, and pence go around to all the football parties and demand that people get out of the bathroom, and stand for the national anthem, then they can claim to be rightfully offended. If they don't, then they are choosing this time and place to find a way to be offended about it.
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I do not agree that the protests are inherently offensive, just because you feel offended doesn't mean everyone should. Kneeling has never (before) been viewed as disrespectful, but I have to recognize that some where offended.
Protests are always inherently offensive. They are offensive to the people that don't want to change what is being protested. That they choose to justify their offense over other people not following the official protocols of patriotism that we celebrate in this land of the "free" does not mean that the reason that they are looking to take superficial offense is not to prevent the conversation from being what they are really offended about, having to change something that they don't want changed.
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Your offense, however, does not put you on the moral high ground; does not make you a better American than me. The players are not, likewise, un-American because they chose to protest in a way that rankled you.

As Grrr! said perceptions don't change if they are not challenged, and when you challenge you run the risk of offending.
It's the most American of traditions.

mc
Agreed.

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Originally Posted by Telemark View Post
It doesn't really matter what was motivating the folks booing the black athletes, it's the perception that's important.
I did find it very offensive that people were booing during the national anthem. My perception was that they were booing the flag, our country, and all the people that have fought to protect it.

Last edited by k9bfriender; 05-24-2018 at 05:10 PM.
  #181  
Old 05-24-2018, 05:45 PM
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If the players all stay in the locker room, will the public reaction really be any different at this point?
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Originally Posted by begbert2 View Post
I think the proposal is of the 'hyuk hyuk they don't come out to play at all' variety - which is amusing for us non-sports-goers to think about, but would probably result in some kind of legal action against the players if actually attempted, due to them refusing to honor their contracts and do their jobs.

And since the entire and complete goal* of all this hullabaloo to get those protesting black people out of sight I imagine they'll go easier on players that hide in the locker room since that's a preferred behavior over visible protesting, albeit not as optimal as just playing along.


* Of the ire-raisers who actually have a goal
Yes, your second suggestion is what I was getting at. I think that if players stay in the locker room for the anthem and then come out, people will still be mad/offended. The NFL has made it crystal clear why they would be staying in the locker room, so it will still be viewed as a protest/offense to god-fearing Americans everywhere.
  #182  
Old 05-24-2018, 05:51 PM
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Yes, your second suggestion is what I was getting at. I think that if players stay in the locker room for the anthem and then come out, people will still be mad/offended. The NFL has made it crystal clear why they would be staying in the locker room, so it will still be viewed as a protest/offense to god-fearing Americans everywhere.
It wouldn't be as visible of a protest as kneeling out there in front of god and man, though. And it would be an obedient sort of protest - rather than openly acting in defiance of tradition to send an explicitly nonoffensive message, this would be quietly obeying authority to send an explicitly nonoffensive message. There is a material difference there.
  #183  
Old 05-24-2018, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
No, but I can compel an employee to serve a customer wearing a MAGA hat. idol
protest is respect
Why do you think that? Do you think you can compel an employee to wear a "re-elect President Trump" button? I don't. And I'm not sure there is a bright line between naming a candidate and using the candidate's official campaign slogan, especially one that has received a Service Mark (like a trademark, but for a service rather than product).
  #184  
Old 05-24-2018, 05:55 PM
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Standing is a ceremonial way to show respect. That is why people stand when a judge enters a courtroom or a bride enters the church. It used to be that students stood when a teacher entered the classroom and gentlemen stood when a lady enters the room. It is customary now to show respect to the country by standing and taking your hat off when then the national anthem is played.
Likewise not standing during a time where everyone else is standing to show respect is a calculated move to show disrespect. Pretending otherwise is like saying giving someone the middle finger is meaningless.
emphasis added

Players who kneel are not expressing disrespect for the country. They are showing respect for the principles of our founding by protesting systemic failures to live up to those standards. Standing when a judge enters the courtroom shows respect for the rule of law, no matter your opinion of the specific judge. When the rule of law itself is systemically abrogated, protest is not only a matter of principle, it is a duty.
  #185  
Old 05-24-2018, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by John Mace View Post
Why do you think that? Do you think you can compel an employee to wear a "re-elect President Trump" button? I don't. And I'm not sure there is a bright line between naming a candidate and using the candidate's official campaign slogan, especially one that has received a Service Mark (like a trademark, but for a service rather than product).
Maybe you misread and thought that I said that I could make an employee wear a MAGA hat.

That is not what I said, I said I can compel an employee to serve a customer wearing a MAGA hat.
  #186  
Old 05-24-2018, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
Maybe you misread and thought that I said that I could make an employee wear a MAGA hat.

That is not what I said, I said I can compel an employee to serve a customer wearing a MAGA hat.
To be fair, your sentence could legitimately be read either way.
  #187  
Old 05-24-2018, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
Maybe you misread and thought that I said that I could make an employee wear a MAGA hat.

That is not what I said, I said I can compel an employee to serve a customer wearing a MAGA hat.
OK. I did misread it as: I can compel an employee to wear a MAGA hat while serving a customer.

I think you're right that you can compel an employee to serve customers even if the customer is visibly of a different political persuasion.
  #188  
Old 05-24-2018, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by ISiddiqui View Post
Did you read the article?

The things you are stating in this post run afoul of anti-discrimination laws. Political parties/positions are not protected classes.

From the article:
I'm not seeing any court cases cited in that article to back up that person's claims. The fact that certain employers have allegedly used intimidation tactics to get employees to perform political actions does no mean that they are legal entitled to do so.

But that's not even what my objection was. My objection was to the idea that there is no limit to what political speech an employer can compel an employee to engage in. If you know of a court case that says otherwise, I'm all ears.

Last edited by John Mace; 05-24-2018 at 06:19 PM.
  #189  
Old 05-24-2018, 06:53 PM
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Many employers don’t allow political activities and solicitation and such in the workplace.
The NFL allows at least one political activity and that's standing for the anthem.
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  #190  
Old 05-24-2018, 07:10 PM
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The NFL allows at least one political activity and that's standing for the anthem.
I think it's one of those grey areas. It might be considered political speech, but it might be considered "ceremonial patriotism". If it were up to me, I'd say it wasn't political-- it doesn't advocate for any particular politician, political party, or political issue. But I'm just not certain how the courts would rule.
  #191  
Old 05-24-2018, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by puddleglum View Post
Standing is a ceremonial way to show respect. That is why people stand when a judge enters a courtroom or a bride enters the church. It used to be that students stood when a teacher entered the classroom and gentlemen stood when a lady enters the room. It is customary now to show respect to the country by standing and taking your hat off when then the national anthem is played.
...I can't stand for very long. Its a health thing. So if a judge were to enter a courtroom I'd keep sitting down. And I've sat down when a bride enters the church. Thankfully I've never had to stand when the teacher entered a room, and "gentleman" standing for a "lady" is simply a ridiculous thing.

So if you didn't know I was sick, and if I was sitting while the bride entered a church, your assumption would be that I was choosing to be disrespectful?

What is inherent in the act of standing that makes not standing disrespectful? And am I obliged to agree with your opinion?

Quote:
Likewise not standing during a time where everyone else is standing to show respect is a calculated move to show disrespect.
They aren't just "not standing." They are taking a knee. The act of taking a knee, IMHO, is deeply respectful. The implication that it is a calculated move to show disrespect doesn't match any of the public statements made by any of the players. Are you accusing all the players who have chosen to take a knee of lying?

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Pretending otherwise is like saying giving someone the middle finger is meaningless.
I'm not pretending. Stop pretending that I am.
  #192  
Old 05-24-2018, 07:24 PM
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President Trump and Ashtura and others were offended by the protests, and those feelings are just as valid as my non-offense.
I do not agree that the protests are inherently offensive, just because you feel offended doesn't mean everyone should. Kneeling has never (before) been viewed as disrespectful, but I have to recognize that some where offended.
The notion that Trump was offended by this supposed lack of patriotic decorum before someone told him to be is risible considering that his emmigrant wife had to remind him to put his hand over his heart during a rendition of the national anthem at a White House function. The concept of Donald Trump, a five times draft deferee who has never served the public in any capacity other than giving his family name to a fraudulent real estate school and being the host of a reality television show, being some qualified arbiter on what is and is not patriotic (and who should or should not be allowed in the country) is like considering Elmer Fudd as an expert on hunting.

As for Ashtura, who stridently insists this is all just ‘bad optics’ and has nothing to do with race (except it is a protest by predominately black atheletes about the systematic shooting of black men), it may well be that he is simply incapable of grasping the explanations provided to him, or that he is inflexible in his unwillingness to consider that there is a deeper context to kneeling rather than just giving offense, but it may be observed regardless that nobody ever challenged an entrenched cultural bias without offending someone, for the very reason that people who don’t want their biases challenged but are nonetheless embarassed about them will find some ancillary issue to be upset about.

In this case, ‘taking the knee’, which is in virtually any other context a sign of respect, has been twisted into some kind of attack on veterans and patriotism by people who have every reason to shut down the conversation behind it. The idea that it would be okay if Kaepernick just used his influence to talk softly about the problems (even though conservative pundits complain all the time about celebrities using their fame to publicize causes) or support charities, but it is unacceptable to make a public spectacle of it (even though the extensive displays of military pride and hardware at sporting events is about nothing but public spectacle in service of politics) is nothing more than telling protesters to shut up and go to the back of the bus. It is absolutely manufactured outrage in service of concealing bigotry and an unwillingness to address a systematic social problem.

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  #193  
Old 05-24-2018, 07:30 PM
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COlin
Just to give a personal example (one NOT involving an athlete): I teach at an affluent, predominantly white high school. Our principal, my boss, is an African American male. If you met him, I think you'd describe him as "preppy." The kids and faculty mostly love him.

During last year's Government class, when we were discussing Constitutional protections against illegal searches and/or police abuse, many of my students couldn't grasp why such things were necessary. After all, to us middle-class white folks, the police are the GOOD guys, right?
What school IS this? I taught at predominately white, conservative high schools, and whenever we discussed the Fourth Amendment, most students did NOT see cops as good guys but as teen-hating adults out to ruin their fun by "harrassing" them just for being teens. Every kid grasped why these protections were necessary. These are teens, after all, questioning, suspecting, and sometimes resenting authority.

I hope you're scrupulous, as I was, about keeping your own political views from coloring your approach and language and about objectively and accurately presenting BOTH sides of issues and stories. Otherwise, discussions are less than honest. And if you cover current events, students might not realize, for instance, that Kaepernick's shirt showed Malcolm X meeting Castro in Harlem when Castro came to address the UN and might not understand why Castro's reception in Harlem was enthusiastic. I'm no fan of Castro's, but I'm a big fan of ensuring students objectively understand why people do what they do before students make up their own minds.
  #194  
Old 05-24-2018, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
...
That is not what I said, I said I can compel an employee to serve a customer wearing a MAGA hat.
It could even be read as k9bfriender is the hat wearer. But of course, that's madness.
  #195  
Old 05-24-2018, 08:00 PM
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Some interesting points:

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NFL teams are probably private actors, which would mean players do not have constitutional free speech rights in this situation; however, there are some bona fide arguments to the contrary. While a court is likely to conclude that NFL teams are private actors, this is not certain. Indeed, one 1978 federal decision, Ludtke v. Kuhn, held that New York City's involvement with the lease arrangement to the old Yankee Stadium transformed Major League Baseball's decision to prevent female reporters from entering the Yankees' clubhouse from private action into state action. By this same logic, one could argue that the substantial public funding for NFL stadiums, as well as the tax breaks offered to NFL clubs, could convert certain clubs into public actors.

According to the collective bargaining agreement, any team punishment is subject to internal arbitration. In addition to the limits on NFL teams ' rights to "fire" players based on the standard player agreement, the collective bargaining agreement allows players the right to challenge any such punishment via a formal arbitration process. So even if a team wished to take action against a player, the team owner might not have the absolute and final say in the matter.

SOURCE: https://www.forbes.com/sites/marcede.../#2f9b53d22976

Last edited by Whack-a-Mole; 05-24-2018 at 08:00 PM.
  #196  
Old 05-24-2018, 09:41 PM
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Oh No! Jesus takes a knee! He's disrespecting GOD!!!
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  #197  
Old 05-25-2018, 02:29 AM
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So...any objections to my mooning a passing Trump when they play Hail to the Chief?

Yep, I absolutely disrespect him.

Last edited by Johnny Ace; 05-25-2018 at 02:29 AM.
  #198  
Old 05-25-2018, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Tooth View Post
The NFL allows at least one political activity and that's standing for the anthem.
Yep. I'm curious, though; when did the national anthem become a thing before sports events?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mace View Post
I think it's one of those grey areas. It might be considered political speech, but it might be considered "ceremonial patriotism".
Just like "ceremonial deism", there is no such thing as "ceremonial patriotism". Standing for the national anthem, singing the national anthem, standing for the pledge of allegiance, and reciting the pledge of allegiance are all, in fact, political displays, to wit: patriotic displays.

Quote:
If it were up to me, I'd say it wasn't political-- it doesn't advocate for any particular politician, political party, or political issue.
Actually, it does: the issue of patriotic display.

Quote:
But I'm just not certain how the courts would rule.
Haven't the courts been pretty consistent with finding against employers who penalize their employees because the employers don't like the employees' politics?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Ace View Post
So...any objections to my mooning a passing Trump when they play Hail to the Chief?

Yep, I absolutely disrespect him.
Well, here is more fodder for your hatred of him. Trump thinks that American citizens whose political actions he doesn't like should leave the country.
  #199  
Old 05-25-2018, 07:06 AM
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Whether we like it or not, standing vs kneeling for the anthem is now a political issue. Some things become political issues that didn't used to be, and some things that used to be political aren't any more (say, whether the Native Americans should be exterminated). When the President explicitly and viciously attacks and smears protesters for not standing during the anthem, then standing/not-standing during the anthem has become an explicitly political issue.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 05-25-2018 at 07:07 AM.
  #200  
Old 05-25-2018, 07:54 AM
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You guys keep coming up with non-sequiturs? Any more? That's the pledge of allegiance, not the national anthem. And it was in a school. Which has established case law behind it since 1943.
Barnette isn't about just the pledge. Its about compulsory participation in "patriotic ceremonies" Read the quote posted from the decision and tell me why that wouldn't apply to the national anthem. It also isn't specific to schools - although you could say that as a private organization, the NFL has some rights to compel behavior, the problem with that is that the NFL isn't exactly a private organization. They benefit from some specific government policies (cough - stadiums built by tax dollars, for instance) that means that the court system can impose government standards on the organization. You could also say that since the NFL has said players can stay off the field, they aren't compelling anything (I'm suspecting that is the lawyers covering their asses on Barnette).

I also tend to agree that if respect is so important to the franchises and the fans, then why are the concession stands open? Would it kill them to stop the sales of giant pretzels for the five minutes of compulsory patriotism? Why aren't people up in arms about that? Is controlling the behavior of a black man important but so is making sure you can exercise your God given right to buy beer and spill it down the front of your shirt during "rockets red glare?"

Kneeling is a long established form of respect. In addition to kneeling in church, you traditionally knelt before a monarch, I think you still are supposed to kneel before the Pope. And that's Western culture - Asians have even more kneeling in respect. Personally, I think its a far more powerful signal of respect, you place yourself close to the ground. It is more self abasing.
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