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  #301  
Old 05-26-2018, 09:14 AM
John Mace John Mace is online now
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Originally Posted by Ludovic View Post
Communication is meant to communicate information. If it is not new information, then why use the words? If it is thought to be new information to me, something I did not know already, then it is condescending.
Yes, the hyoo-mans are highly illogical. In my many years observing them, I have noticed that they often say things that have no real meaning or that do not convey new information. It's almost as if they were engaging in some grooming or social bonding activity. Very, very strange.

Last edited by John Mace; 05-26-2018 at 09:15 AM.
  #302  
Old 05-26-2018, 09:30 AM
Chimera Chimera is offline
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Originally Posted by Ludovic View Post
Communication is meant to communicate information. If it is not new information, then why use the words? If it is thought to be new information to me, something I did not know already, then it is condescending.
It appears to be new information to many people, or at least a reminder to some people that they seem to have forgotten this.

After all, if you truly believe that this is something you already know and hold true, there would be nothing in it that would upset you and you would simply agree with it.
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Last edited by Chimera; 05-26-2018 at 09:30 AM.
  #303  
Old 05-26-2018, 09:42 AM
Magiver Magiver is offline
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You mean the town where the police force was almost all white in a town that was mostly black, known to be corrupt, violent and racist? Where the local judiciary was determined by the Justice Department to be racist and farming the community for fines?

That Ferguson?
Yes, that Ferguson. If you go on a burning/looting rampage that would be the wrong way to protest.
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  #304  
Old 05-26-2018, 09:48 AM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
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Yes, that Ferguson. If you go on a burning/looting rampage that would be the wrong way to protest.
What "right way" do you think would have worked?
  #305  
Old 05-26-2018, 09:57 AM
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  #306  
Old 05-26-2018, 10:30 AM
Magiver Magiver is offline
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What "right way" do you think would have worked?
NOT rioting and burning the town.
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  #307  
Old 05-26-2018, 10:37 AM
Chimera Chimera is offline
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I don't think any of us think destructive riots are a good thing.

But if that is the only thing you can focus your anger on to the point of ignoring the horrible injustices and damage that was being done to the community, then you're just looking for excuses to ignore those injustices.

Some of us think "Wow, that was bad. I hope their community gets their shit together and gets rid of all these asshole cops and judges that are causing this pain."

Which is something very hard to achieve.
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  #308  
Old 05-26-2018, 10:52 AM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
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Originally Posted by Magiver View Post
NOT rioting and burning the town.
That is a chickenshit non-answer if I ever heard one, but not entirely unexpected.

Care to actually answer the question?
  #309  
Old 05-26-2018, 11:10 AM
Magiver Magiver is offline
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Originally Posted by Chimera View Post

Some of us think "Wow, that was bad. I hope their community gets their shit together and gets rid of all these asshole cops and judges that are causing this pain."

Which is something very hard to achieve.
I hope their community gets their shit together and stops killing each other. Black on black murder is by far the biggest threat. It means there is a higher disregard for life and this behavior increases the likelihood of getting shot by the police.

The idea within the AA community that society values black lives less is likely influenced by the murders within their community.
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  #310  
Old 05-26-2018, 11:15 AM
Chimera Chimera is offline
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I hope their community gets their shit together and stops killing each other. Black on black murder is by far the biggest threat. It means there is a higher disregard for life and this behavior increases the likelihood of getting shot by the police.
So again, you'd much rather ignore all of the injustices black people suffer at the hands of a racist society and instead deflect the blame back on them for all their ills.

Got it. We know who you are. You're just confirming it here.
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  #311  
Old 05-26-2018, 11:30 AM
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is online now
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Originally Posted by Magiver View Post
I hope their community gets their shit together and stops killing each other. Black on black murder is by far the biggest threat. It means there is a higher disregard for life and this behavior increases the likelihood of getting shot by the police.

The idea within the AA community that society values black lives less is likely influenced by the murders within their community.
A lot of Americans hate black culture and society and think it's very inferior, and love to highlight disparate statistics that have a whole lot of history of brutality and oppression behind them, blaming the "black community" even though the vast majority of black Americans are peaceful and decent, as evidence of this supposed cultural/societal/communal inferiority.

This is very sad as well as harmful to this country, and certainly contributes to the widespread policies and practices that treat black lives as less valuable than other lives. It also, of course, regularly ignores facts like that about half of all black Americans, in polling, report that they personally have been mistreated by police, while only about 3% of white Americans report the same. If you believe that black people are inherently dishonest, then this is probably easy to dismiss -- all those blacks reporting personal mistreatment by law enforcement are lying -- but for those of us who believe that black people are just as honest and decent as everyone else, facts like these are extremely troublesome and indicative of a major problem in the country.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 05-26-2018 at 11:32 AM.
  #312  
Old 05-26-2018, 11:30 AM
Magiver Magiver is offline
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That is a chickenshit non-answer if I ever heard one, but not entirely unexpected.

Care to actually answer the question?
I did answer and it was a valid response. Do the opposite of theft and destruction.

And why would I answer your question when you respond in such a childish manner? What would be the point? Why don't you tell us your solutions.
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  #313  
Old 05-26-2018, 11:37 AM
Magiver Magiver is offline
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A lot of Americans hate black culture and society and think it's very inferior......
I don't see how you can function from day to day believing this without it affecting how you interact with others.

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This is very sad as well as harmful to this country......
I could not agree more. Going through life thinking this will negatively affect one's life. Assuming people hate you will become a self-fulfilling prophesy.
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  #314  
Old 05-26-2018, 11:39 AM
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is online now
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Originally Posted by Magiver View Post
I don't see how you can function from day to day believing this without it affecting how you interact with others.
Very good question -- does your belief that black people as a whole in America (the "AA community" as you call it) are responsible for the relatively few who are violent among them affect how you interact with black people?
  #315  
Old 05-26-2018, 11:50 AM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
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Originally Posted by Magiver View Post
I did answer and it was a valid response. Do the opposite of theft and destruction.

And why would I answer your question when you respond in such a childish manner? What would be the point? Why don't you tell us your solutions.
You: That is the wrong way to do it!
Me: What then is the right way to do it?
You: That is the wrong way to do it!

Let's not even pretend that you had an actual answer in mind but since I hurt your feelings you are going to withhold it from us-That is the oldest excuse in the book.
What would be the point? To point out a way to accomplish what is needed, of course.
  #316  
Old 05-26-2018, 11:52 AM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
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I don't see how you can function from day to day believing this without it affecting how you interact with others.

I could not agree more. Going through life thinking this will negatively affect one's life. Assuming people hate you will become a self-fulfilling prophesy.
Pretending people don't hate your culture and/or race makes it go away? What you are saying is victim-blaming at it's worst.

Last edited by Czarcasm; 05-26-2018 at 11:53 AM.
  #317  
Old 05-26-2018, 12:06 PM
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So again, you'd much rather ignore all of the injustices black people suffer at the hands of a racist society and instead deflect the blame back on them for all their ills.
You can't blame black on black violence on racism. You can't. This is 2018, not 1950. The problems in society are pretty basic. If you want to succeed then stay in school, learn a trade, and act in a collectively positive way with the people around you. If you want children then wait until you can afford to meet their financial and social needs.
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  #318  
Old 05-26-2018, 12:18 PM
John Mace John Mace is online now
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You can't blame black on black violence on racism. You can't.
I wouldn't be so sure about that.

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This is 2018, not 1950.
True, but the fact that blacks are disproportionately poor in the US can be blamed on racism (both current and past), and people growing up in poverty are more likely to run afoul of the law. So I wouldn't go so far as saying that blacks kill each other at the rate they do because white people are racist, but racism is an important component in producing the current conditions in the US (e.g., high poverty rates among blacks) which in turns leads to higher crime rates. And since we live in a society that is, to a large extent, still segregated, it should be no surprise that the higher many of these crimes occur in the areas with higher poverty rates.

But this is a hijack of the thread topic, so I'm not going to pursue this argument any further. Feel free to have the last word in our conversation. I'm sure there will be other posters who are happy to continue the hijack if you are inclined to keep it going.

Last edited by John Mace; 05-26-2018 at 12:19 PM.
  #319  
Old 05-26-2018, 12:19 PM
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is online now
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Originally Posted by Magiver View Post
You can't blame black on black violence on racism. You can't. This is 2018, not 1950. The problems in society are pretty basic. If you want to succeed then stay in school, learn a trade, and act in a collectively positive way with the people around you. If you want children then wait until you can afford to meet their financial and social needs.
Many folks believe that today's society is a perfect meritocracy, and things like racism and bigotry and oppression don't exist any more. This makes it extremely easy to ignore the plight of the disadvantaged, since by this belief, any struggles and difficulties in life are one's own fault.
  #320  
Old 05-26-2018, 12:24 PM
Magiver Magiver is offline
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Pretending people don't hate your culture and/or race makes it go away? What you are saying is victim-blaming at it's worst.
This makes no sense. How is black on black violence victim blaming? And how is it a function of non-black people's supposed hatred?

Pretending the failure within the AA community is because other people hate them does not explain the collapse in the education system. If the children don't take it seriously they WILL fail in life. The social structure necessary to make that happen cannot be taken away or forced upon a child.

We had the national average of black people in my school when I was growing up in the 60's and 70's. To my knowledge not one of them failed to succeed as long as they put in the time and effort of their peers. "The Man" didn't keep them down. We were not a rich community so the majority of kids put themselves through college or trade school because that was what was expected of them. It took me 12 years to get a 4 year degree while working full time. I hated it but I got through it.

It's time you stopped listening to the politicians who destroyed your community with generational welfare and take back the opportunity that is rightfully yours.
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Last edited by Magiver; 05-26-2018 at 12:25 PM.
  #321  
Old 05-26-2018, 12:27 PM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
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This makes no sense. How is black on black violence victim blaming?
I'd rather talk about the topic of this thread.
  #322  
Old 05-26-2018, 12:30 PM
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Pretending the failure within the AA community is because other people hate them does not explain the collapse in the education system.
There you go again, putting the blame on the entirety of black Americans for the faults of a relative few. Does your belief that black people as a whole in America are responsible for the relatively few who are violent among them affect how you interact with black people?
  #323  
Old 05-26-2018, 12:37 PM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
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Magiver, what would be an effective means of protest for African-Americans(I refuse to use the "AA" shortcut, because that is already in use by Alcoholics Anonymous).
  #324  
Old 05-26-2018, 12:39 PM
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There's no such thing as black-on-black crime.

What there is, instead, is criminal-on-black crime - by definition. And it's the police's job to stop criminals, not the community's. Instead of criticizing everyone else, the police should do their job, and to do that, they have to gain the trust of the community they're protecting. First step: stop being racists.
  #325  
Old 05-26-2018, 12:58 PM
Magiver Magiver is offline
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Many folks believe that today's society is a perfect meritocracy, and things like racism and bigotry and oppression don't exist any more. This makes it extremely easy to ignore the plight of the disadvantaged, since by this belief, any struggles and difficulties in life are one's own fault.
You keep saying this as if it has any meaning. Most folks DON'T believe society is perfect. At best we live in a country with unlimited opportunity.
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  #326  
Old 05-26-2018, 01:05 PM
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is online now
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You keep saying this as if it has any meaning. Most folks DON'T believe society is perfect. At best we live in a country with unlimited opportunity.
When you believe that opportunity is unlimited, then that makes it extremely easy to dismiss the complaints of the disadvantaged -- if society hasn't limited their chance to succeed, then only they themselves can. On the other hand, if opportunity has limits for many folks due to inequities in society, then we need to fix our society before blaming all those who haven't succeeded for their lack of success.
  #327  
Old 05-26-2018, 01:22 PM
Magiver Magiver is offline
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I'd rather talk about the topic of this thread.
Great idea. As it applies to employees, don't use your place of business. Don't drag your employer into it when not working. So, anything that isn't illegal or harms other people is available as an avenue for protest. Knock yourself out. In the age of the internet you can produce professional quality videos for almost nothing and get a zillion hits. Certainly an easy task for wealthy athletes. They have a ready made following, lots of off-season free-time, and money.
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Last edited by Magiver; 05-26-2018 at 01:24 PM.
  #328  
Old 05-26-2018, 01:45 PM
Magiver Magiver is offline
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When you believe that opportunity is unlimited, then that makes it extremely easy to dismiss the complaints of the disadvantaged -- if society hasn't limited their chance to succeed, then only they themselves can. On the other hand, if opportunity has limits for many folks due to inequities in society, then we need to fix our society before blaming all those who haven't succeeded for their lack of success.
My parents grew up in the great depression. They were "disadvantaged" by your definition. The were not enslaved by a welfare system because it didn't exist on the scale created in the 60's. That's your enemy. That's the fight. Restoring the nuclear family with parents who are successful and can pass on those life skills on to their children is the goal. It's universal and not a racial problem. It affects more black people people there was a higher level of poverty in the black community when this was instituted.
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  #329  
Old 05-26-2018, 02:10 PM
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That's your enemy. That's the fight. Restoring the nuclear family with parents who are successful and can pass on those life skills on to their children is the goal. It's universal and not a racial problem. It affects more black people people there was a higher level of poverty in the black community when this was instituted.
I understand this is your opinion, but this is just opinion, not fact, and many folks have different opinions. I think there are many facts and pieces of data (some already cited or mentioned in this thread, like the fact that so many black Americans report that they have personally been mistreated by law enforcement) that strongly indicate large-scale systemic and institutional bias and bigotry which serve as significant barriers towards the chance at success for many folks.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 05-26-2018 at 02:10 PM.
  #330  
Old 05-26-2018, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Chimera View Post
So again, you'd much rather ignore all of the injustices black people suffer at the hands of a racist society and instead deflect the blame back on them for all their ills.

Got it. We know who you are. You're just confirming it here.

You've heard of confirmation bias, haven't you? Well, what Magiver is displaying here is bias confirmation.

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Great idea. As it applies to employees, don't use your place of business. Don't drag your employer into it when not working. So, anything that isn't illegal or harms other people is available as an avenue for protest. Knock yourself out. In the age of the internet you can produce professional quality videos for almost nothing and get a zillion hits. Certainly an easy task for wealthy athletes. They have a ready made following, lots of off-season free-time, and money.

Lots of free off-season time? Where do you get that idea? Or do you think their athletic prowess is simply a function of...nope, I'm not even going to finish that sentence.
  #331  
Old 05-26-2018, 03:36 PM
Chimera Chimera is offline
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Choosing to deflect from other issues facing minorities in this country by continually bringing up other issues is just that - DEFLECTION. Magiver is refusing to face or address other issues because he's fixed on deflection.

Dude, everything you've said since then is just more deflection and obfuscation. Enslaved to welfare? Yeah, that speaks volumes. NO ONE is 'enslaved' by welfare.

Nuclear family? Total bullshit and propaganda. Look back in time a bit, when people tended to die a lot younger. Lots of single parents because their spouse died in childbirth, or of cholera, or workplace accidents, etc, etc. We made it through just fine. The whole 'nuclear family' argument is something the religious right made up to attack the idea of gay people getting married and having children. The side benefit of shaming divorced women and widows into remarrying was just a bonus.

Unlimited Opportunity? Blatantly false when some people have their opportunities limited by the color of their skin, their religion, by their poverty or any other of a multitude of reasons.
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  #332  
Old 05-26-2018, 03:45 PM
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Nuclear family? Total bullshit and propaganda. Look back in time a bit, when people tended to die a lot younger. Lots of single parents because their spouse died in childbirth, or of cholera, or workplace accidents, etc, etc. We made it through just fine. The whole 'nuclear family' argument is something the religious right made up to attack the idea of gay people getting married and having children. The side benefit of shaming divorced women and widows into remarrying was just a bonus.
Daniel Patrick Moynihan was hardly a member of "the religious right", and no one was talking about SSM in 1965.

Last edited by John Mace; 05-26-2018 at 03:45 PM.
  #333  
Old 05-26-2018, 04:06 PM
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NO ONE is 'enslaved' by welfare.
Wow. That's amazingly stupid thing to say. And I mean really amazingly stupid. So the poor people who aren't black and are poor on a generational basis they're what? Stupid? Assholes? condemned by a witche's curse?

If you don't have a strong parental background, and that includes the community at large, it creates a welfare state. I'm done arguing with you on this.

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Nuclear family? Total bullshit and propaganda. .
And the black people I went to school went on to lead normal productive lives because they were..... what? singular geniuses that all happened to arrive in my community by divine province? No. They came from a stable family background surrounded by other kids with a stable family background.
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Last edited by Magiver; 05-26-2018 at 04:07 PM.
  #334  
Old 05-26-2018, 04:13 PM
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is online now
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Wow. That's amazingly stupid thing to say. And I mean really amazingly stupid. So the poor people who aren't black and are poor on a generational basis they're what? Stupid? Assholes? condemned by a witche's curse?

If you don't have a strong parental background, and that includes the community at large, it creates a welfare state. I'm done arguing with you on this.


And the black people I went to school went on to lead normal productive lives because they were..... what? singular geniuses that all happened to arrive in my community by divine province? No. They came from a stable family background surrounded by other kids with a stable family background.
Stable families are great, and I hope policies will be put into place that make it easier to form and maintain them. Policies like universal health care, higher minimum wage (an actual living wage), covered mental health care, ending the drug war and treating addiction as a disease and not a moral deficiency, reforming the justice system, enabling prisons to rehabilitate and not just punish, since many/most of those folks have children to help raise when they get out, and much more .
  #335  
Old 05-26-2018, 04:15 PM
Chimera Chimera is offline
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Wow. That's amazingly stupid thing to say. And I mean really amazingly stupid. So the poor people who aren't black and are poor on a generational basis they're what? Stupid? Assholes? condemned by a witche's curse?

If you don't have a strong parental background, and that includes the community at large, it creates a welfare state. I'm done arguing with you on this.
Good, because you don't actually have an argument here. Just name calling, screaming and insisting you're right.
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  #336  
Old 05-26-2018, 04:28 PM
Chimera Chimera is offline
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Daniel Patrick Moynihan was hardly a member of "the religious right", and no one was talking about SSM in 1965.
You sure that's a great cite for this?

"Moynihan argued that the rise in black single-mother families was caused not by a lack of jobs, but by a destructive vein in ghetto culture"

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  #337  
Old 05-26-2018, 04:37 PM
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Stable families are great, and I hope policies will be put into place that make it easier to form and maintain them. Policies like universal health care, higher minimum wage (an actual living wage), covered mental health care, ending the drug war and treating addiction as a disease and not a moral deficiency, reforming the justice system, enabling prisons to rehabilitate and not just punish, since many/most of those folks have children to help raise when they get out, and much more .
You're just shifting responsibility to someone else.
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  #338  
Old 05-26-2018, 04:41 PM
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is online now
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You're just shifting responsibility to someone else.
It's reasonable to talk about public policy and how it affects things like families. Slavery destroyed families -- that was public policy. Ending it was also public policy. There are many other examples. If you think more stable families is a good goal -- and I think it is -- then it's reasonable to talk about which public policies make it easier, and harder, to form and maintain stable families.
  #339  
Old 05-26-2018, 04:48 PM
Chimera Chimera is offline
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You're just shifting responsibility to someone else.
You're insisting that people are entirely responsible for themselves no matter how hard society shits on them or holds back opportunities for their group.
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  #340  
Old 05-26-2018, 04:59 PM
John Mace John Mace is online now
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You sure that's a great cite for this?

"Moynihan argued that the rise in black single-mother families was caused not by a lack of jobs, but by a destructive vein in ghetto culture"

It's not about whether you or I agree with Moynahan (or not). It's about that fact that he was NOT a member of the religious right, and he was NOT trying to thwart SSM when he published his famous report in 1965.
  #341  
Old 05-26-2018, 05:10 PM
Chimera Chimera is offline
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It's not about whether you or I agree with Moynahan (or not). It's about that fact that he was NOT a member of the religious right, and he was NOT trying to thwart SSM when he published his famous report in 1965.
I stand corrected on that. He was just an expletive-deleted who blamed black culture for single black mothers and all of the other problems with black people. Like Magiver is doing in this thread.
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  #342  
Old 05-26-2018, 05:11 PM
Chimera Chimera is offline
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So since, CLEARLY, blaming black people and their culture for 53 years has resulted in little to no changes to the situation, what other solutions do you folks propose?
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  #343  
Old 05-26-2018, 05:27 PM
Magiver Magiver is offline
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You're insisting that people are entirely responsible for themselves no matter how hard society shits on them or holds back opportunities for their group.
No, I'm saying that there is a reasonable avenue to success that anyone can apply regardless of income. If you're poor it takes longer but the process is the same and it's basic common sense. It's not monetary poverty that's holding our kids back. It's social poverty. It's a lack of guidance from an adult caregiver. That's a really big deal because growing up in a neighborhood where parental guidance was sparse meant something akin to the Lord of the Flies.

You can pour money into an economically depressed school system but you can't force a child to learn. That comes with social structure. The nuclear family is far more than 2 adults watching over their child's behavior. It's a community of parents on the same wavelength.

When I was a kid my mother would have known I'd screwed up at school before I got home. If one assignment wasn't turned in or I was failing something my parents would have immediately intervened.
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  #344  
Old 05-26-2018, 05:31 PM
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is online now
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Originally Posted by Magiver View Post
No, I'm saying that there is a reasonable avenue to success that anyone can apply regardless of income. If you're poor it takes longer but the process is the same and it's basic common sense. It's not monetary poverty that's holding our kids back. It's social poverty. It's a lack of guidance from an adult caregiver. That's a really big deal because growing up in a neighborhood where parental guidance was sparse meant something akin to the Lord of the Flies.

You can pour money into an economically depressed school system but you can't force a child to learn. That comes with social structure. The nuclear family is far more than 2 adults watching over their child's behavior. It's a community of parents on the same wavelength.

When I was a kid my mother would have known I'd screwed up at school before I got home. If one assignment wasn't turned in or I was failing something my parents would have immediately intervened.
Then why are you so dismissive of the possibility that public policy can influence the ease or challenge of forming and maintaining stable families? Public policy has definitely affected this in the past. Why couldn't it be involved now?

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 05-26-2018 at 05:31 PM.
  #345  
Old 05-26-2018, 05:40 PM
Magiver Magiver is offline
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I stand corrected on that. He was just an expletive-deleted who blamed black culture for single black mothers and all of the other problems with black people. Like Magiver is doing in this thread.
Actually I'm blaming poverty on the lack of parents and the collapse of social structure that surrounds it. And it's funny that you would place the blame on singe mothers as it would be the absence of fathers creating the parental vacuum. And with the current problem with drugs we're now seeing grandparents raising children.

Race has nothing to do with it unless you want to complain about race. Then it becomes a subset of the same issues.
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  #346  
Old 05-26-2018, 05:53 PM
Magiver Magiver is offline
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Then why are you so dismissive of the possibility that public policy can influence the ease or challenge of forming and maintaining stable families? Public policy has definitely affected this in the past. Why couldn't it be involved now?
It was institutional welfare that destroyed the family unit. We warehoused poor people in housing projects that destroyed the very mechanism necessary for success.

If you don't fix the lack of parental guidance then the problem will continue,
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  #347  
Old 05-26-2018, 06:05 PM
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is online now
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It was institutional welfare that destroyed the family unit. We warehoused poor people in housing projects that destroyed the very mechanism necessary for success.

If you don't fix the lack of parental guidance then the problem will continue,
Then you acknowledge that public policy plays a role, we just disagree on what role it plays.

You're stating opinions, not facts, and many others have different opinions. It's reasonable, at least, to consider the possibility that making sure families have jobs is part of maintaining stable families, along with health care, and a fair and equal justice system, and many other policies.
  #348  
Old 05-26-2018, 06:27 PM
Magiver Magiver is offline
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Then you acknowledge that public policy plays a role, we just disagree on what role it plays.
not exactly. I'm saying you can't legislate behavior.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
You're stating opinions, not facts, and many others have different opinions. It's reasonable, at least, to consider the possibility that making sure families have jobs is part of maintaining stable families, along with health care, and a fair and equal justice system, and many other policies.
I'm stating common sense based on past societal successes.

If you try and force a "living wage" you'll transfer jobs to other countries.
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  #349  
Old 05-26-2018, 06:30 PM
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is online now
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not exactly. I'm saying you can't legislate behavior.

I'm stating common sense based on past societal successes.

If you try and force a "living wage" you'll transfer jobs to other countries.
These are just opinion disputes. There's been very little, if any, effort in the US to institute a real living wage. We've never had universal health care. We still have a justice system in which half of all black Americans report that they, personally, have been mistreated by. And much more. It's reasonable to consider things like this when trying to craft policy to make it less difficult to form and maintain stable families. Blaming entire communities for the misdeeds of a much smaller number might make you feel good, but it's never accomplished anything positive, and never will.
  #350  
Old 05-27-2018, 06:06 AM
elucidator elucidator is offline
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How about some patriotic respect! How about we don't cheapen and commercialize the anthem by playing it at events that have little or nothing to do with patriotism? The NFL isn't about America, its about Budweiser.
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