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  #51  
Old 01-07-2019, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Sir T-Cups View Post
I would certainly think/hope so.



Frankly, for as bad as the situation is, the resolution is pretty straightforward. You would greatly assume it was someone who worked at the hospital, so you can look back at schedules/time punches for roughly 9 months ago, DNA test the baby and against any males working...and boom.

And how is that consistent with the warrant requirement of the 4th Amendment?
  #52  
Old 01-07-2019, 07:28 PM
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Well, it sure ain't good, it sure ain't right, and the perpetrator needs to be held accountable and punished. But (and not to minimize its horror) it's far from among the worst things I've ever seen, sadly enough.
Ok, but to be fair you work in a prison. Your horribleness bar is high.

For me, this story's breathtaking in its awfulness. She was potentially exposed to STDs by her rapist, there's no telling how often he raped her, and there's no telling if she was aware of being assaulted. Her family must be shattered by this.
  #53  
Old 01-07-2019, 07:36 PM
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I also wonder if the patient ever went out on passes.

There was a comparable story a while back about a disabled woman who did get pregnant (and the condition was not discovered until it was too late for an abortion). Her sister would bring her home a few times a month, usually for a weekend, and in the end, it turned out that her husband had done this! The healthy sister adopted the baby, and the husband went to prison.

There are all sorts of degrees of coma; people in them range from those who are brain-dead on life support, to people who are partially conscious and in some cases can even walk and/or speak. There's also locked-in syndrome, where people are completely aware of their surroundings and similarly unable to care for themselves. The wonderful book and movie "The Diving Bell and the Butterfly" are by and about someone who became this way after a stroke.

https://www.amazon.com/Diving-Bell-B...bell+butterfly

It's measured via the Glasgow Coma Scale.

https://www.glasgowcomascale.org/

Last edited by nearwildheaven; 01-07-2019 at 07:38 PM.
  #54  
Old 01-07-2019, 07:44 PM
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This link is much simpler.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasgow_Coma_Scale
  #55  
Old 01-07-2019, 07:51 PM
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Ok, but to be fair you work in a prison. Your horribleness bar is high.
I could have said the same thing before working in a prison. I've worked in a Children's hospital ER, along with STD clinics too.

As for not picking up a pregnancy: I've done obstetrics and taken care of nursing home patients who were vegetative. The latter don't get routine abdominal exams or gyn exams, especially if in a comatose/vegetative state and emphasis is on care and comfort, not diagnosis and treatment. So pregnancy would not routinely be noted, frankly. And I've seen pregnant women who didn't show it at all, even at term. Not morbidly obese ones either, but ones with enough adipose tissue and loose skin, to easily cover the evidence.
  #56  
Old 01-07-2019, 07:57 PM
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Sure, but DNA testing of the staff would eliminate them as suspects, so they could check logs for the time when this could have happened.
You'd also think it would be done by someone familiar with the place, since your random delivery boy wouldn't know that he wouldn't get walked in on. I'd also think that the rape might have happened more than once, since she did get pregnant.
It doesn't take that long to rape someone, and it only needs to happen once for pregnancy to occur.

Granted, it's more likely it's someone who have more access than a brief time period just once, but it's not impossible for it to have been a one time thing.
  #57  
Old 01-07-2019, 07:58 PM
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Sure, but DNA testing of the staff would eliminate them as suspects, so they could check logs for the time when this could have happened.
You'd also think it would be done by someone familiar with the place, since your random delivery boy wouldn't know that he wouldn't get walked in on. I'd also think that the rape might have happened more than once, since she did get pregnant.
The time it could have happened would be any time in a four to six week block, roughly nine months before the birth. There might be records of who worked a shift within that time, and maybe a list of common deliveries and regular visitors. But I doubt there's an easy list of everyone who might have been there within the time window. And no one is going to remember a random stranger after this length of time.

Also, some people like the thrill of doing something that they might be caught at. Even dismissing that, it wouldn't take many deliveries to get a feel for a place, especially if the deliveries were during shifts with low staffing levels.
  #58  
Old 01-07-2019, 09:04 PM
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It doesn't take that long to rape someone, and it only needs to happen once for pregnancy to occur.

Granted, it's more likely it's someone who have more access than a brief time period just once, but it's not impossible for it to have been a one time thing.
Sure, it's not impossible, but staff and regular visitors are a better bet. If you can eliminate them, then you can start looking for delivery people.
Alas, no camera record and probably not very good security.
  #59  
Old 01-07-2019, 09:17 PM
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Rape and abuse happens frequently to the elderly in nursing homes, and even if they can report it, the nursing homes often don't report to the police, and often say the person was delusional, or doesn't understand whet they were saying.

CNN expose

I fear old age.

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  #60  
Old 01-07-2019, 10:24 PM
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Gatopescado is correct.
Just wanted to quote this as it happens so infrequently.
  #61  
Old 01-07-2019, 10:54 PM
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just wanted to quote this as it happens so infrequently.
iswydt
  #62  
Old 01-07-2019, 11:00 PM
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Girl, you so whack, you can fuck up a quote!

  #63  
Old 01-07-2019, 11:45 PM
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I got my eye on you. ^^^^
  #64  
Old 01-07-2019, 11:50 PM
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I got my Gangrenous...

Oh, never mind.
  #65  
Old 01-08-2019, 12:51 AM
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You and the gangrene parts! I don't know about you sometimes. You make me laugh. You're scaring my cats by doing that.

ETA they don't like me to make noise after a certain time. There's a noise ordinance here.

Last edited by Beckdawrek; 01-08-2019 at 12:53 AM.
  #66  
Old 01-08-2019, 07:08 AM
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Not to answer for her, but YES, SHE DOES.

EVERYBODY does.
Why? You really think it is necessary to insult everybody on "the other side" any time you can find an excuse for it? It's bad enough that some people insist in thinking that anybody not squarely in agreement with them is Evil, but do you have to scream it constantly?

When you guys do that, you behave exactly like the people Annie was talking about when they try to close down Planned Parenthood clinics.
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  #67  
Old 01-08-2019, 09:18 AM
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CEO quits after woman in vegetative state gives birth; new allegations emerge

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ce...K1n?li=BBnb7Kz

Quote:
The station said it's learned that she was raped several times.
I wonder how they would know that.

Seems the outgoing CEO is a real piece of shit.

But this is tragic.
Quote:
The patient has been in a vegetative state for 14 years, since a near-drowning incident, KPHO noted.
14 YEARS??? Why would anyone keep a person in a vegetative state alive for 14 years??? Let the poor woman die. Let her family move on.
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  #68  
Old 01-08-2019, 09:22 AM
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<snip>
I, too wonder what kind of "nursing home" she was in, for her caregivers not to notice that she was pregnant? For one thing, didn't she have menstrual cycles, and didn't anyone notice that she wasn't having them any more?
<snip>
You can have what appears to be menstrual cycles while pregnant. Some pregnant women have breakthrough bleeding during pregnancy... that's one of the reasons why some women say they didn't know they were pregnant when they have a surprise baby. Furthermore, she could experience infrequent or irregular periods due to her not being physically active. Heck, physically active women often have irregular or infrequent periods. Unfortunately, for a lot of women, the reproductive system doesn't work like a clock. It doesn't happen at precise intervals every single month.
  #69  
Old 01-08-2019, 10:16 AM
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For one thing, didn't she have menstrual cycles, and didn't anyone notice that she wasn't having them any more?
Serious question, help fight ignorance - Given she was comatose, & therefore incontinent, she'd be in a diaper 24x7. Is there any reason to treat a period differently than urine or feces & have it collected in a diaper? If not, then would caregivers necessarily notice when she did/not have her period?
  #70  
Old 01-08-2019, 11:23 AM
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Now I feel ill.....
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  #71  
Old 01-08-2019, 11:41 AM
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14 YEARS??? Why would anyone keep a person in a vegetative state alive for 14 years??? Let the poor woman die. Let her family move on.
Well, some folks have a different view of the situation, as I'm sure you know. Ardent pro-lifers, Catholics, and others might view sustaining her life as the greater good. I don't think I'd agree with that either.

There might be another reason, like being in a state where withdrawing life support from such a person is extremely difficult without a prior medical directive. A lot of people don't have those.
  #72  
Old 01-08-2019, 05:56 PM
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14 YEARS??? Why would anyone keep a person in a vegetative state alive for 14 years??? Let the poor woman die. Let her family move on.
This person may be in such a state where keeping them fed, clean, and free of bedsores enables them to stay alive, although they are probably DNR and perhaps the family would ask that extreme measures not be used if she got sick.

My mother had a FOAF who was in a PVS for about 15 years, after a car accident. However, her parents and husband (see footnote) visited her regularly, and her mother spent the rest of her life as a TBI activist who also advocated for seat belt use; the accident happened in the 1970s and she had not been wearing hers. She couldn't walk or talk, or even communicate with a letter or picture board, but she knew when she had visitors and could indicate things like pain or pleasure, like music or TV shows that she liked. Her husband would even bring in newspaper or magazine articles he thought she would enjoy, and read them to her. She had been a highly intelligent woman; she was a schoolteacher who was getting ready to go to law school.

Footnote: When they realized her condition would not further improve, her husband was advised to legally divorce her, so he wouldn't be on the hook for her medical bills, especially because they had young children, and this was worse for him that the accident. In time, with the approval of her family, he started dating a few years later and married a woman they called their "daughter in love." IIRC, the first wife eventually got pneumonia, and they asked that nothing be done beyond comfort measures, and this was how she died.

And remember Karen Ann Quinlan? She lived in a PVS for about 10 years, also dying from pneumonia.
  #73  
Old 01-08-2019, 06:00 PM
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You can have what appears to be menstrual cycles while pregnant. Some pregnant women have breakthrough bleeding during pregnancy... that's one of the reasons why some women say they didn't know they were pregnant when they have a surprise baby. Furthermore, she could experience infrequent or irregular periods due to her not being physically active. Heck, physically active women often have irregular or infrequent periods. Unfortunately, for a lot of women, the reproductive system doesn't work like a clock. It doesn't happen at precise intervals every single month.
That's true.

And aren't diapers supposed to be charted if you're in any kind of care facility? I know they do that in hospitals.
  #74  
Old 01-08-2019, 06:02 PM
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As for not picking up a pregnancy: I've done obstetrics and taken care of nursing home patients who were vegetative. The latter don't get routine abdominal exams or gyn exams, especially if in a comatose/vegetative state and emphasis is on care and comfort, not diagnosis and treatment. So pregnancy would not routinely be noted, frankly. And I've seen pregnant women who didn't show it at all, even at term. Not morbidly obese ones either, but ones with enough adipose tissue and loose skin, to easily cover the evidence.
I'll also note that in at least one of the cases mentioned in this thread, the baby was born very premature. I'm assuming that would mean the mother was showing less visible signs of being pregnant at the time of the birth.
  #75  
Old 01-08-2019, 06:09 PM
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CEO quits after woman in vegetative state gives birth; new allegations emerge

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ce...K1n?li=BBnb7Kz



I wonder how they would know that.

Seems the outgoing CEO is a real piece of shit.
That guy just plain old looks scary. I'd be collecting his DNA first before pursuing anyone else's IMNSHO.
  #76  
Old 01-08-2019, 06:22 PM
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I wonder who is going to be on the hook for child support. Provided that the rape took place in the nursing facility, I'd imagine that the company is on the hook for that. Even if they find the father, he isn't likely to earn anything while in prison.
  #77  
Old 01-08-2019, 07:23 PM
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I understand that the police can't force dna tests on all of the male employees without warrants, but it seems that the facility itself could demand their male employees submit DNA or be terminated. That would certainly narrow the suspect list. I could be wrong. I often am.
  #78  
Old 01-08-2019, 07:50 PM
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The sexual abuse may have taken place for a long time.

The only thing authoritites know is it escalated to intercourse 9 months ago.

<shudder>

There's some very sick people in this world.
  #79  
Old 01-08-2019, 10:11 PM
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Who's going to get custody of the baby? The family of the patient?
  #80  
Old 01-09-2019, 12:29 AM
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The sexual abuse may have taken place for a long time.

The only thing authoritites know is it escalated to intercourse 9 months ago.
Not even, it could have "escalated to intercourse" a lot sooner. And it wouldn't be terribly surprising if other patients at the same place are also being abused/raped.
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  #81  
Old 01-09-2019, 12:56 AM
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Who's going to get custody of the baby? The family of the patient?
Unless the patient's family wants custody, the baby is probably in foster care and will eventually be adopted.
  #82  
Old 01-09-2019, 02:13 AM
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I understand that the police can't force dna tests on all of the male employees without warrants, but it seems that the facility itself could demand their male employees submit DNA or be terminated. That would certainly narrow the suspect list. I could be wrong. I often am.
The Genetic Information Nondiscrimination Act (linked above post #23) prohibits employers from requiring employees to submit DNA samples. (There are some exceptions which don't seem to apply here.)
  #83  
Old 01-09-2019, 02:16 AM
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Serious question, help fight ignorance - Given she was comatose, & therefore incontinent, she'd be in a diaper 24x7. Is there any reason to treat a period differently than urine or feces & have it collected in a diaper? If not, then would caregivers necessarily notice when she did/not have her period?
I'd have assumed a catheter and rectal tube instead.
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  #84  
Old 01-09-2019, 02:18 AM
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I'd have assumed a catheter and rectal tube instead.
No, those are avoided as much as possible, as they cause further damage to the body. That applies whether the patient is comatose or merely incontinent.
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  #85  
Old 01-09-2019, 06:37 AM
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N/m - ninjaed.

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  #86  
Old 01-09-2019, 08:19 AM
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Do you always have to bring in some abortion/LGBT/religion/atheism non-sequiter into threads like these? This is a repeated pattern of yours.
Well, pardon me for being a woman who has opinions and expresses them. I guess I should be a nice, quiet girl who never voices a thought that might offended someone. Ain't going to happen.

If having a woman in a coma who is raped, impregnated and gives birth isn't an argument for legal abortion, what is?

Let's make sure that baby goes to a straight, married couple because any other form of parenting (i.e. single, gay, or lesbian) is child abuse.
  #87  
Old 01-09-2019, 08:39 AM
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Well, pardon me for being a woman who has opinions and expresses them. I guess I should be a nice, quiet girl who never voices a thought that might offended someone. Ain't going to happen.

If having a woman in a coma who is raped, impregnated and gives birth isn't an argument for legal abortion, what is?

Let's make sure that baby goes to a straight, married couple because any other form of parenting (i.e. single, gay, or lesbian) is child abuse.
I don't know what kind of abortion you want to give this woman unless it's post-birth. No one knew she was pregnant. My guess is, if they'd had an inkling, they would've aborted her under the radar so the news wouldn't leak out to the general public.

StG
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Old 01-09-2019, 12:11 PM
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They've collected DNA from the male staff. It takes maybe a few weeks for the test results?
https://www.foxnews.com/us/dna-sampl...te-gives-birth

Last edited by aceplace57; 01-09-2019 at 12:12 PM.
  #89  
Old 01-09-2019, 12:14 PM
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They've collected DNA from the male staff. It takes maybe a few weeks for the test results?
https://www.foxnews.com/us/dna-sampl...te-gives-birth
If that doesn't pan out, can they do the same when it comes to the male patients in the facility?
  #90  
Old 01-09-2019, 12:38 PM
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If that doesn't pan out, can they do the same when it comes to the male patients in the facility?
I would bet they need to get permission from the parents/guardians of the patients, assuming the patients are not legally capable of consenting on their own.

I wonder what would happen if some male patient was found to have done it, but lacked the means to understand what he was doing. The care facility would still be on the hook for inadequate supervision, but are they in loco parentis? Would the male patient be transferred to a hospital for the criminally insane? I can't imagine leaving him in the same care facility - but would anyone else accept him, given the possible liability if he does something like this again?

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  #91  
Old 01-09-2019, 01:57 PM
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Well, pardon me for being a woman who has opinions and expresses them. I guess I should be a nice, quiet girl who never voices a thought that might offended someone...
You are absolutely entitled to your opinion, as you know. You just have a truly obnoxious way of expressing it.

Cite:

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And the anti-abortion group does a Happy Dance. "God intended for that baby to be born to that mother."

mmm
  #92  
Old 01-09-2019, 02:10 PM
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Law & Order had a storyline like this. Turned out the victim's mother wanted a grandchild and paid some dude to knock-up her daughter. Lots of legal highjinks ensued.
Not quite, IIRC. Her doctor impregnated her to get stem cells to help his wealthy patient, who had Parkinson's. The mother wanted to keep the baby because it was her grandchild and she was herself against abortion. I think this was an SVU episode.
From my memory, that's two different episodes. One, a man confessed to a rape he did not commit (turned out mentally handicapped girl/woman had sex with a mentally handicapped boy/man - can't recall ages there), to avoid getting caught for the one he did. That was the one where the patient's parents hired the rapist because they wanted a grandchild (their daughter miscarried from the accident that killed her husband and put her in a coma). A completely separate episode had the artificial insemination and the I remember the argument that she the patient was an organ donor, so she would have been okay with this. The owner of the sperm then sued for custody (woman's parent(s) wanted custody, too), but that seemed to be about getting the cord blood/stem cells. I wouldn't swear both were L&O, but I was thinking they were.

Last edited by Tzigone; 01-09-2019 at 02:11 PM.
  #93  
Old 01-09-2019, 04:33 PM
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As of right now, the mother's family is caring for the baby.

https://tucson.com/news/state-and-re...386d03fc3.html
  #94  
Old 01-09-2019, 11:36 PM
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Ok, but to be fair you work in a prison. Your horribleness bar is high.

For me, this story's breathtaking in its awfulness. She was potentially exposed to STDs by her rapist, there's no telling how often he raped her, and there's no telling if she was aware of being assaulted. Her family must be shattered by this.
At the risk of insensitivity, because this is certainly an awful thing, but if she wasn't aware of being assaulted, doesn't that make this less horrible than most rapes?

I am surprised at a warrant being issued for the DNA of all the male workers. I guess it depends on how large that group is. I thought warrants had to be fairly specific. Any lawyers want to chime in on how broad warrants like that can be?
  #95  
Old 01-10-2019, 02:43 AM
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At the risk of insensitivity, because this is certainly an awful thing, but if she wasn't aware of being assaulted, doesn't that make this less horrible than most rapes?
No. No, it does not.
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Old 01-10-2019, 02:46 AM
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At the risk of insensitivity, because this is certainly an awful thing, but if she wasn't aware of being assaulted, doesn't that make this less horrible than most rapes?
I've seen that reasoning used to dismiss as "not so serious" rapes of children who at the time didn't understand what was going on.
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Old 01-10-2019, 03:24 AM
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Even from a religious perspective, this is wildly incorrect.

God allowed the free will of the perpetrator to override God's choice on the matter.

God wouldn't be much of a God if He gave us free will, and then overrode it whenever it was convenient.
Bear in mind that the Christian god (or at least one of the dissociative identity disorder suffering Christian god's personalities -- Holy Ghost) knocked up a woman without her knowing it. That god certainly overrode that woman's free will when that god rode her. Hopefully the Holy Ghost had not been at it again with that unfortunate woman in the care facility -- which brings us to the point: had the impregnated woman been receiving pastoral care?
  #98  
Old 01-10-2019, 03:56 AM
Nava is offline
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Originally Posted by Muffin View Post
Bear in mind that the Christian god (or at least one of the dissociative identity disorder suffering Christian god's personalities -- Holy Ghost) knocked up a woman without her knowing it.
No, she consented.
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  #99  
Old 01-10-2019, 04:45 AM
bucketybuck is offline
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Originally Posted by Annie-Xmas View Post
Well, pardon me for being a woman who has opinions and expresses them. I guess I should be a nice, quiet girl who never voices a thought that might offended someone. Ain't going to happen.

If having a woman in a coma who is raped, impregnated and gives birth isn't an argument for legal abortion, what is?

Let's make sure that baby goes to a straight, married couple because any other form of parenting (i.e. single, gay, or lesbian) is child abuse.
What on earth has abortion got to do with this case?

Can you get any more off topic than shouting about abortion in a case where nobody knew she was pregnant until the baby was born?
  #100  
Old 01-10-2019, 06:38 AM
Melbourne is offline
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Originally Posted by Typo Negative View Post
But this is tragic.
14 YEARS??? Why would anyone keep a person in a vegetative state alive for 14 years??? Let the poor woman die. Let her family move on.
That is a credit to modern medical science and to the standard of care provided. When I was paying more attention to such things, 2 years in a persistent vegetative state would have been a good outcome, and 14 years would have indicated that she was sitting up, and probably could walk with support and direction (like a sleepy child).
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