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  #351  
Old 01-29-2019, 11:26 AM
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No, I honestly don't. I don't care that that Kirk couldn't have scrounged up enough sodium nitrate, sulphur, coal dust and diamonds, filtered out the ordinary dirt, found bamboo plants in the middle of the Vasquez Rocks and build a crude cannon while a sentient crocodile who walks upright lumbers around trying to throw a big rock at him. I don't even particularly care that Chuck Cunningham never came back from college and disappeared so completely that his own father forgot he ever existed.

When I watch a documentary I expect it to get its facts straight. When I watch an entertainment program, I expect to be entertained.
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  #352  
Old 01-29-2019, 11:56 AM
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I dont think they care. You were born 28 years, 6 months and 7 days ago, thereby you are a Capricorn or whatever.

You know what would have been the coolest twist ever?

That they were right. People on their world are controlled by the birth stars.
Yeah. Maybe their species have endocrine and neurological systems that are very sensitive to astronomical phenomena, and the only reason the Prisoners were so docile is they were heavily medicated to keep them that way.

And once they are released into society and not medicated, they act more like the Reavers in firefly.

Having Isaac come in and explain that to the captain right before the episode ended would've been a better ending.
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  #353  
Old 01-29-2019, 12:24 PM
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Having Isaac come in and explain that to the captain right before the episode ended would've been a better ending.
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  #354  
Old 01-29-2019, 12:25 PM
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No, I honestly don't. I don't care that that Kirk couldn't have scrounged up enough sodium nitrate, sulphur, coal dust and diamonds, filtered out the ordinary dirt, found bamboo plants in the middle of the Vasquez Rocks and build a crude cannon while a sentient crocodile who walks upright lumbers around trying to throw a big rock at him. I don't even particularly care that Chuck Cunningham never came back from college and disappeared so completely that his own father forgot he ever existed.

When I watch a documentary I expect it to get its facts straight. When I watch an entertainment program, I expect to be entertained.
QFT. Not even “The Inner Light” could hold up to the nitpicking scrutiny I see focused on this show.
  #355  
Old 01-29-2019, 01:12 PM
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No, I honestly don't. I don't care that that Kirk couldn't have scrounged up enough sodium nitrate, sulphur, coal dust and diamonds, filtered out the ordinary dirt, found bamboo plants in the middle of the Vasquez Rocks and build a crude cannon while a sentient crocodile who walks upright lumbers around trying to throw a big rock at him. I don't even particularly care that Chuck Cunningham never came back from college and disappeared so completely that his own father forgot he ever existed.

When I watch a documentary I expect it to get its facts straight. When I watch an entertainment program, I expect to be entertained.
You probably liked the Star Trek reboot.
  #356  
Old 01-29-2019, 02:07 PM
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QFT. Not even “The Inner Light” could hold up to the nitpicking scrutiny I see focused on this show.
If people were really nitpicking, it wouldn't be on page 4. It wouldn't have survived two episodes.

What matters is consistency within the fictional universe. The universe might not make a lot of sense as compared to ours but if it's consistent, it's fine.

To use another example, Star Wars. "The force" makes no sense as compared to our universe; it's silly. However, as long as it's consistent in THAT universe, it's a great idea. Where people start to complain is when it's not consistent; when it goes from being a mystical thing to "midichlorians" people hated that, or when the rules of its use change. Light sabers don't make sense, but they seem consistent, so they're fine; if suddenly they could reach out 15,000 miles, instead of two or three feet, that would be stupid, because it would be inconsistent. Hyperspace is nonsense, but used consistently, it's a fine thing that makes a galactic war make sense. When, in the new movies, it was suddenly totally different from before, that was a minor irritation.

Episode 5 suffers from inconsistencies, and ones much more substantial that technical mumbo jumbo. Character inconsistencies.
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  #357  
Old 01-29-2019, 04:11 PM
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You probably liked the Star Trek reboot.
I think I made myself clear. "When I watch an entertainment program, I expect to be entertained."

I don't know how you could think that applied to the reboot.
  #358  
Old 01-29-2019, 04:40 PM
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Cool action scenes??? You mean, more examples of how "our guys" are incredibly good at fighting and the "bad guys" are completely inept at everything they try to do? It was like Legolas and orcs, or, worse, Leia and stormtroopers! How the hell is Commander Kelly Grayson a crack shot with a submachine gun that she's NEVER USED BEFORE!!??? To say nothing of her ability to pick off soldiers in a night setting with confusing shadows with a hand gun she's never fired before? And neither she nor Bortus were at any point even wounded?????

Don't you even think about stuff like this when you watch a show?
In passing, but I try not to think about it so much that it ruins the show for me. I like this show, and I LOVE the idea of it. The first half of this episode was great. It was fun seeing the crew so excited and energized about first contact, and then seeing a new culture through their eyes until it all blew up. I think the first part may have been too long, though. It seemed like it became rushed and MacFarlane had to cram in a lot during the second half. I agree that Bortus and Kelly shooting their way out of the camp was ridiculous, but I can buy the rest of it.

ETA: I'm surprised nobody (that I remember) has considered the communication issue. Presumably, an alien culture would have a language no one's heard. Does the Union have some kind of universal translator?

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  #359  
Old 01-29-2019, 04:46 PM
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I was reminded of a lot of ST:TNG episodes at that point. They'd get into an interesting situation, which didn't look like it had a simple resolution, and then it was close to the top of the hour, so it was "Wesley/Data/Geordi comes up with something > problem resolved > ahead warp factor 5, engage" in three minutes.
That was the Brannon Braga era of TNG. You'd look a the clock and it was five mionutes to the top of the hour, and the episode showed no chance of wrapping up in the time left, and just as you start to wonder if it is two-parter, everything gets finished in 30 seconds. Roll credits. Repeat next week.

And guess who works for The Orville now.
  #360  
Old 01-29-2019, 05:07 PM
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I can overlook a lot of fictional aspects when they are both consistent within their universe and add to the storytelling. I wouldn't complain if, in context, it made sense for Grayson and Bortus to be experts with weapons that to them would be the equivalent of a 17th century blunderbuss and a brace of pistols. But in this episode, it didn't. It was a complete break, as if someone said "Hey, we only have 5 minutes left, we need to wrap this thing up pronto!"

The problem I'm having with The Orville right now isn't nitpicking technical details, it's that the stories themselves are not, for lack of a better term, coming to a satisfying conclusion. The episodes tend to start out with an interesting premise and at the halfway point I'm all in and wondering what clever solution the writers will come up with. But too often this season, in the last five minutes they throw away all of that story development and just have a big gunfight, spring a deus ex machina, then smash cut to a birthday party on the bridge with no further explanation.

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  #361  
Old 01-29-2019, 05:26 PM
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Soon we will have two Star Trek parody shows apparently.
  #362  
Old 01-29-2019, 05:32 PM
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I mean - there was nothing too exotic about the guns they used in the episode. It wouldn't surprise me if the Union had basic firearms training for exactly these sorts of situations. But in any case, 20th century style guns are really simple. You can figure out that you point them at things and pull the trigger. It's not like 17th century weapons that would require more specialized training. I would think there would be convergent design - if you're a humanoid, you'd probably design a gun that works basically like our guns do.

Of all the details to criticize I don't find that one even makes the list.
  #363  
Old 01-29-2019, 09:03 PM
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Right. And I just want to know: compared to what? I assume we’re all Star Trek fans: so what episodes would you hold up as being much less nitpickable?
  #364  
Old 01-29-2019, 09:44 PM
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This episode feels like a straight out of mid-era TNG episode. It's alright. Nothing remarkable, not terrible. Lots of plot holes under examination. At least it wasn't resolved with technobabble, which makes it better than about 40% of TNG episodes.

Problem is... 1980s middle of the road TNG episodes aren't that compelling now. TV has gotten so much better. So even if those middle of the road TNG episodes were on par or better than average for 1980s TV, they aren't now.

The humor and the character relationships work in this show. The sci-fi plots not so much. They work fine as dressing, but they're rarely all that compelling on their own. Since the second season has shifted away from the former to almost exclusively the latter it's just not that entertaining unfortunately.

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  #365  
Old 01-30-2019, 01:33 AM
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Darn you for getting my hopes up! LOL.
  #366  
Old 01-30-2019, 06:51 AM
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How the hell is Commander Kelly Grayson a crack shot with a submachine gun that she's NEVER USED BEFORE!!???
I qualified "Expert" the very first time I ever shot an M203 grenade launcher. I made every shot. To show I'm not bragging or superhuman, I never, ever qualified beyond "Marksman" with the M16, though.
  #367  
Old 01-30-2019, 01:41 PM
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Sounds fun! (I say that despite never having used any gun other than a .22 rifle when I was a kid.)

So none of the people criticizing this episode want to nominate an episode of “Star Trek” that they feel could not be nitpicked the same way?
  #368  
Old 01-30-2019, 02:52 PM
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So none of the people criticizing this episode want to nominate an episode of “Star Trek” that they feel could not be nitpicked the same way?

Care to point out where anyone in any Orville thread at this site has made that claim?
  #369  
Old 01-30-2019, 02:59 PM
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I qualified "Expert" the very first time I ever shot an M203 grenade launcher. I made every shot. To show I'm not bragging or superhuman, I never, ever qualified beyond "Marksman" with the M16, though.
Were you firing live grenades? The only times "close" matters are horseshoes and hand grenades.
  #370  
Old 01-30-2019, 03:16 PM
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The premise of the episode was fine, but the handling, once they had the reveal, went from dumb to dumber and kept falling from there. I can handle a nitpick-able point or 3, but this episode was so filled with stupidity it grated on my nerves. And what type of fleet expecting first contacts doesn't have protocols to handle away team captured by natives? Just leave them behind. Ludicrous!

C'mon, McFarlane. I want to like this show! But you are making it so damn hard.
  #371  
Old 01-30-2019, 05:26 PM
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So none of the people criticizing this episode want to nominate an episode of “Star Trek” that they feel could not be nitpicked the same way?
It's not a useful point in this discussion. So I nominate the best star trek episode. You find a nit to pick with it. Oh, I guess this mediocre episode of The Orville is as good as the best episode of Star Trek. You win.

And you deflect any criticism of the episode as nitpicking, because clearly this work is so near-flawless in its idea that any criticism you could have about it is nitpicking.

So you've set yourself up so that any response confirms your point in your mind. That's not a useful argument for anyone.
  #372  
Old 01-30-2019, 08:27 PM
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The premise of the episode was fine, but the handling, once they had the reveal, went from dumb to dumber and kept falling from there. I can handle a nitpick-able point or 3, but this episode was so filled with stupidity it grated on my nerves. And what type of fleet expecting first contacts doesn't have protocols to handle away team captured by natives? Just leave them behind. Ludicrous!

C'mon, McFarlane. I want to like this show! But you are making it so damn hard.
Am I missing something in the timeline? The protocol would be "Operation Scotty".
  #373  
Old 01-30-2019, 08:38 PM
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You know what would have been the coolest twist ever?

That they were right. People on their world are controlled by the birth stars.
Seriously. I really, really thought that's what the reveal was going to be when they were scanning the constellation and saw the black hole. I thought, "Oh man, they're actually affected by gamma rays or something!"

The actual reveal was a bit of a letdown.

But I still enjoyed the episode. Especially Bortus being jealous about keeping his birthday to himself.
  #374  
Old 01-30-2019, 09:05 PM
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So none of the people criticizing this episode want to nominate an episode of “Star Trek” that they feel could not be nitpicked the same way?
One person's nit is another person's NOT I guess.

No doubt every episode of every show ever has nits to pick ... here's the thing though - if the show is otherwise good enough even some fairly major stupid will be ignored, it would take horrific stupid to pull us out of the show in that case. Or, as pointed out, something that forces us to suspend disbelief by being internally inconsistent in a significant way.

Give me quality funny, or characters I invest in, or a plot that pulls me in and makes me think or surprises me, or even just something beautiful to watch, and I will give not a shit about a few eye roll aspects. First year this show gave enough of the first three ... it's not delivering on them this time, at least for some of us ... so even otherwise ignorable nits grow into big nots, and more major stupidity and inconsistencies annoy greatly.
  #375  
Old 01-30-2019, 11:23 PM
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Were you firing live grenades? The only times "close" matters are horseshoes and hand grenades.


And dancing. Horseshoes, dancing and hand grenades.
  #376  
Old 01-31-2019, 06:49 AM
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Does the Union have some kind of universal translator?
I think it has been mentioned that they do. They always did in Star Trek.
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  #377  
Old 01-31-2019, 07:04 AM
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I always thought universal translators were kind of a crutch technology like transporters that made things too easy. (Related: good on this show for not having transporters. Holy shit how many star trek episodes could be solved in 5 seconds with a damn transporter but weren't)

I'm okay with having a universal translator for known languages, like alien species you've had contact with for years and you've got a little computer implant in your ear that translates for you - that seems fine and plausible - but it makes no sense that a computer could instantly translate a whole new language on the first encounter.

But I guess then first contact stories would always become communication difficulty stories, limiting your space to work with. So it's an understandable cheat.

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  #378  
Old 01-31-2019, 07:39 AM
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I'm okay with having a universal translator for known languages, like alien species you've had contact with for years and you've got a little computer implant in your ear that translates for you - that seems fine and plausible - but it makes no sense that a computer could instantly translate a whole new language on the first encounter.

But I guess then first contact stories would always become communication difficulty stories, limiting your space to work with. So it's an understandable cheat.
There was a DS 9 episode where the UT took a while to begin working.
  #379  
Old 01-31-2019, 07:42 AM
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And of course the famous TNG episode where the UT works but the language is nothing but cultural references.

Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra!

But yeah, starting every "here are some new aliens" episode with three minutes of technobabble about the UT would get old really quickly.

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  #380  
Old 01-31-2019, 08:32 AM
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And of course the famous TNG episode where the UT works but the language is nothing but cultural references.

Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra!

But yeah, starting every "here are some new aliens" episode with three minutes of technobabble about the UT would get old really quickly.


Johnny Bravo, with his eyes open wide!
  #381  
Old 01-31-2019, 09:29 AM
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I always thought universal translators were kind of a crutch technology like transporters that made things too easy. (Related: good on this show for not having transporters. Holy shit how many star trek episodes could be solved in 5 seconds with a damn transporter but weren't)

I'm okay with having a universal translator for known languages, like alien species you've had contact with for years and you've got a little computer implant in your ear that translates for you - that seems fine and plausible - but it makes no sense that a computer could instantly translate a whole new language on the first encounter.

But I guess then first contact stories would always become communication difficulty stories, limiting your space to work with. So it's an understandable cheat.
In the episode, they had communications with the planet before they went down there. Presumably, the planet sent up "Here's how our language works" instructions beforehand.
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Old 01-31-2019, 10:11 AM
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Johnny Bravo, with his eyes open wide!
Johnny and Suzy at Aron City.

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Old 01-31-2019, 10:49 AM
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Old 01-31-2019, 11:55 AM
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Were you firing live grenades? The only times "close" matters are horseshoes and hand grenades.
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And dancing. Horseshoes, dancing and hand grenades.
And thermonuclear exchange. Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, dancing, and thermonuclear exchange.
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Old 01-31-2019, 04:23 PM
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And of course the famous TNG episode where the UT works but the language is nothing but cultural references.

Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra!

That sounds cool. Do you know the episode title?


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Care to point out where anyone in any Orville thread at this site has made that claim?

It's implicit, unless we've got a bunch of people who dislike all of "Star Trek" but still watch "The Orville". I guess there might be some people like that, if they are into McFarlane's other shows, but since this is supposed to mostly be an extension of classic Trek by Trek veterans now that CBS no longer has any interest in making that, I think it should be judged as such.
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Old 01-31-2019, 04:28 PM
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That sounds cool. Do you know the episode title?
Darmok. (Season 5, Episode 2)

It's a polarizing episode -- the concept is interesting, and the interplay between Picard and the alien captain (Paul Warfield) is very good, but the logistics behind such a language are fairly absurd (and there was a thread on this board a few weeks ago specifically about it).
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Old 01-31-2019, 04:57 PM
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Old 01-31-2019, 05:46 PM
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In the episode, they had communications with the planet before they went down there. Presumably, the planet sent up "Here's how our language works" instructions beforehand.
That and presumably they could hack into various systems and analyze years of TV, radio and literature to figure things out.
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Old 01-31-2019, 07:27 PM
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That and presumably they could hack into various systems and analyze years of TV, radio and literature to figure things out.
Those poor people.....
  #390  
Old 01-31-2019, 09:25 PM
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"You know, we're the weirdest ship in the fleet."


Can man (in this case Dr. Finn) and machine find happiness together? I'm pretty sure ST:TNG mined this concept with more than one Data-centric episode, yet this one still felt fresh, and for me at least, Penny Johnson and Mark Jackson's performances were realistic and quite touching. Also welcomed the return of some of the goofball humor that was mostly absent from the past couple episodes. ROFled over the scene with LaMarr and Malloy racing each other to the bridge to blurt out the latest gossip, and Isaac lounging around in wife-beater and tighty whities.

Easily my favorite of the second season so far.
  #391  
Old 01-31-2019, 09:26 PM
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Darmok. (Season 5, Episode 2)

It's a polarizing episode -- the concept is interesting, and the interplay between Picard and the alien captain (Paul Warfield) is very good, but the logistics behind such a language are fairly absurd (and there was a thread on this board a few weeks ago specifically about it).
Minor correction-Paul Winfield.
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Old 01-31-2019, 09:54 PM
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This was pretty shaggy, and sometimes cringey. But there was enough gold among the dross that I give it three stars.
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Old 02-01-2019, 02:00 AM
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IMO this show has to get alot wrong...because it has Parody/Spoof DNA.

This isn't the new show that rights all the wrongs of other shows, it lives (in part) to glorify Kirk humping everything without a penis, to spot light the bad last second save and wrap up...etc.

YMMV
  #394  
Old 02-01-2019, 04:19 AM
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Can man (in this case Dr. Finn) and machine find happiness together? I'm pretty sure ST:TNG mined this concept with more than one Data-centric episode, yet this one still felt fresh, and for me at least, Penny Johnson and Mark Jackson's performances were realistic and quite touching.
Don't forget the episode(s) of Voyager where Janeway got it on with a holodeck hunk. Or the ones of TNG where Riker was boinking a holographic barroom floozy.
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Old 02-01-2019, 08:44 AM
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...Or the ones of TNG where Riker was boinking a holographic barroom floozy.
I don't think they actually boinked. They didn't have time.
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Old 02-01-2019, 09:13 AM
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I laughed at Yaphit coming on to the doctor as Norm McDonald (who does Yaphit's voice).
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Old 02-01-2019, 10:35 AM
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Can man (in this case Dr. Finn) and machine find happiness together? I'm pretty sure ST:TNG mined this concept with more than one Data-centric episode, yet this one still felt fresh, and for me at least, Penny Johnson and Mark Jackson's performances were realistic and quite touching. Also welcomed the return of some of the goofball humor that was mostly absent from the past couple episodes. ROFled over the scene with LaMarr and Malloy racing each other to the bridge to blurt out the latest gossip, and Isaac lounging around in wife-beater and tighty whities.

Easily my favorite of the second season so far.
I'd say it's a fairly classic science fiction sort of question about a human interacting with a true artificial intelligence. Done well (and I think that overall the episode did), it can seem familiar but not derivative. That Isaac is only there to collect information and has no interest in being more human means that the story should be different than an episode like "In Theory" (which I actually don't remember, but have seen others reference, so I read the synopsis.) The humor seemed well-balanced as well and I love that the closest thing to a B-plot was Bortus growing a mustache.
  #398  
Old 02-01-2019, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidm View Post
I laughed at Yaphit coming on to the doctor as Norm McDonald (who does Yaphit's voice).
Isaac was the real Isaac, too.
  #399  
Old 02-01-2019, 01:04 PM
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I thought this episode was cringey and very funny. Isaac lounging in his undies and brushing off the doctor was hilarious. It was also kind of sweet how the crew was pissed off at Isaac after that. Isaac's redemption with the romantic scene in the rain on the bridge was goofy but fun parody. Props to the actress who plays the doctor. She did a good job of playing it straight in such a silly episode.

Definitely my favorite episode of the season so far.


ETA: Oh! And I liked Bortus with the mustache. He should have kept it!

Last edited by Tangent; 02-01-2019 at 01:05 PM.
  #400  
Old 02-01-2019, 01:34 PM
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I usually gripe about the romance in this show but this was my favorite episode yet. It was just so sweet and fun and funny but the sci-fi was there in full force.
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