#101  
Old 01-10-2019, 10:30 AM
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14 YEARS??? Why would anyone keep a person in a vegetative state alive for 14 years??? Let the poor woman die. Let her family move on.
It's quite possible that it's her family keeping her like that.
  #102  
Old 01-10-2019, 10:43 AM
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No, she consented.
Do you believe consent is meaningful between a minor (Mary) and an all-powerful deity?
  #103  
Old 01-10-2019, 10:46 AM
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Do you believe consent is meaningful between a minor (Mary) and an all-powerful deity?
Do you think there may have been just a smidgen of intimidation involved?
  #104  
Old 01-10-2019, 01:42 PM
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If I read it correctly, the article doesn't mention any relatives of that particular patient; they mention relatives of other patients. Having a person who actually cares about you as a human being makes an enormous difference in the care a defenseless person gets; that's something we really need to improve as a society, I understand that having some distance from patients is necessary but it shouldn't get to the point where we think of that incapacitated person as nothing but a lump of meat.
According to the news yesterday morning, the woman's parents have indicated that the baby will be well taken care of, but that this should never have occurred. So yes, it seems there are parents.

Last edited by Lisa21222; 01-10-2019 at 01:42 PM.
  #105  
Old 01-11-2019, 12:27 AM
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No, she consented.
So did Leda.
  #106  
Old 01-11-2019, 04:19 AM
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So did Leda.
Who was Leda?

Edit: never mind, I looked it up.

Last edited by Capn Carl; 01-11-2019 at 04:21 AM.
  #107  
Old 01-11-2019, 04:23 AM
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Do you believe consent is meaningful between a minor (Mary) and an all-powerful deity?
Mary wasn't a minor and, since this was a deity which purposefully had renounced His ability to impose His will on His creatures, yes.

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Do you think there may have been just a smidgen of intimidation involved?
Intimidation, no. Awe, yes.
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  #108  
Old 01-11-2019, 05:43 AM
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Typical rapist excuse: "She wanted it."

Last edited by Muffin; 01-11-2019 at 05:44 AM.
  #109  
Old 01-11-2019, 06:10 AM
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I hear about police collecting DNA in Canada in cases like this, trying to "eliminate suspects". They can't force someone to give DNA, but it looks suspicious if someone refuses to allow it.

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14 YEARS??? Why would anyone keep a person in a vegetative state alive for 14 years??? Let the poor woman die. Let her family move on.
After hearing this, I think I need a living will. My family is religious, and would keep me breathing.
  #110  
Old 01-11-2019, 06:46 AM
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Even if you are religious you should have a living will. Everyone should.

One of my goals this year is to get my living will/medical power of attorney/dead will (the one that isn't a living will) in order and properly set up. Already contacted a lawyer about it, will cost me about $300-400 probably but with almost no living relatives left I don't want to leave it up to whomever is making law at the time, or leaving myself in limbo.
  #111  
Old 01-11-2019, 07:31 AM
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Married off at twelve to a fellow who was coerced by your god's henchmen, who was then cuckolded when she was under sixteen when she fell for the sweet words of one of god's procurers. That is really sick shit -- the predatory manipulation and impregnation of a child.

Oh look, god has gone and done it again, or is it just more bullshit in which people justify their beliefs and actions on their self-invented god?

I wish people would stop justifying raping to themselves, whether the rapist is Zeus, or God the Father, or Christ, or any number of priests, or caregivers, or family members, or facility custodians.
  #112  
Old 01-11-2019, 12:09 PM
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It is against the law for an employer to get your DNA. As well it should be.

A court could order it as part of a criminal investigation, but I doubt seriously that a court would order all the males who work in a hospital to submit to a DNA test. It would likely be the same sort of standard as a search warrant. They'd need probable cause to believe that an individual committed a crime. The fact that some male obviously did commit a crime isn't enough to force all males in the vicinity to undergo genetic testing.

It seems likely that there will be other evidence that can be gathered. The perpetrator likely had intimate knowledge of care schedules or was one of the woman's caregivers. Which will narrow the search a lot.
I wonder if one of the DNA services might find "possible relatives", which would also help focus the search. My brother signed up for 23 And Me and got a notice of a high probablility first cousin (we don't know my father's side of the family well at all).

So.... test the baby, send it off, look for matches, get a court order to ID who the matches are, see of those matches are related to anyone who worked at the facility....
  #113  
Old 01-11-2019, 12:16 PM
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Even if you are religious you should have a living will. Everyone should.

One of my goals this year is to get my living will/medical power of attorney/dead will (the one that isn't a living will) in order and properly set up. Already contacted a lawyer about it, will cost me about $300-400 probably but with almost no living relatives left I don't want to leave it up to whomever is making law at the time, or leaving myself in limbo.
It's one of my goals too. I was so appreciative that my mother did all this before she became demented, but I just haven't been able to get my own act together.
  #114  
Old 01-11-2019, 12:17 PM
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If that doesn't pan out, can they do the same when it comes to the male patients in the facility?
And female too.... might have been someone visiting another patient, who took a side trip.

In the DNA doesn't match any employees, or any male employee, but is a *partial* match for a resident of any gender, that's a pretty good clue.
  #115  
Old 01-11-2019, 12:29 PM
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This person may be in such a state where keeping them fed, clean, and free of bedsores enables them to stay alive, although they are probably DNR and perhaps the family would ask that extreme measures not be used if she got sick.

My mother had a FOAF who was in a PVS for about 15 years, after a car accident. However, her parents and husband (see footnote) visited her regularly, and her mother spent the rest of her life as a TBI activist who also advocated for seat belt use; the accident happened in the 1970s and she had not been wearing hers. She couldn't walk or talk, or even communicate with a letter or picture board, but she knew when she had visitors and could indicate things like pain or pleasure, like music or TV shows that she liked. Her husband would even bring in newspaper or magazine articles he thought she would enjoy, and read them to her. She had been a highly intelligent woman; she was a schoolteacher who was getting ready to go to law school.

Footnote: When they realized her condition would not further improve, her husband was advised to legally divorce her, so he wouldn't be on the hook for her medical bills, especially because they had young children, and this was worse for him that the accident. In time, with the approval of her family, he started dating a few years later and married a woman they called their "daughter in love." IIRC, the first wife eventually got pneumonia, and they asked that nothing be done beyond comfort measures, and this was how she died.

And remember Karen Ann Quinlan? She lived in a PVS for about 10 years, also dying from pneumonia.
As I recall, her parents had quite a legal battle to be allowed to let Quinlan die. Before then, I guess either such patients did not live long enough for this to be an issue, or nobody dared raise the issue. And this was a unified front, unlike the Schiavo case.

Me: I've got a living will written stating that I only want things to keep me comfortable in this situation, and no heroic measures. I'll have to revisit that to make sure it specifically states what happens if I'm PVS. Of course, as I understand it, this just makes my wishes known and reduces the chance that some authoritiy tries to force me to be kept alive; my husband has medical power of attorney and could in theory say "I don't care... just keep my wife alive!".
  #116  
Old 01-23-2019, 10:45 AM
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An arrest has been made.
  #117  
Old 01-23-2019, 03:23 PM
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Well, obviously she was gyno-malfunctioning [i went several years without a period, and another time went for a year bleeding thanks PCOS ... which can also happen if the body fat percentage is low enough] and if they did the catheterization/ostomy combo, crotch cleaning would be less frequent than diaper/ostomy so her lower body wouldn't be handled as much so the increase in lower abdomen size would be perhaps missed [or put down to edema from something else] <have they ever administered something like norethindrone daily to prevent menses in coma patients? Would be one less mess to deal with at least 1 week of the month I guess>


Nice they made an arrest, hope they throw the book at him [if it was one of my female relatives I would probably be trying to talk to one or another gang banger I know to arrange some sort of 'welcome party' in the slammer for them to let them know of my displeasure ...
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  #118  
Old 01-23-2019, 04:03 PM
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Brain damage in and of itself can screw up a comatose woman's cycles - head injuries can do complicated things to a person.
  #119  
Old 02-07-2019, 08:10 PM
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The facility is being closed. 37 patients set adrift because of the actions of one criminal that's already been arrested?

There's no telling where these long-term patients will end up. Creating a burden for families to travel and visit.

Whatever nursing care problems existed at the facility could have been reviewed and corrected.

I guess this is because of upcoming lawsuits that would eventually bankrupt the business?
https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/02/07/us/...www.cnn.com%2F

Quote:
"It is simply not sustainable to continue to operate our intermediate care facility for the intellectually disabled," it said.

There are 37 patients at the facility, the company said.

Hacienda said its board voted last week on the change and it has been working with state agencies on a transition plan

Last edited by aceplace57; 02-07-2019 at 08:15 PM.
  #120  
Old 02-07-2019, 11:28 PM
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Whatever nursing care problems existed at the facility could have been reviewed and corrected.

I guess this is because of upcoming lawsuits that would eventually bankrupt the business?
https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/02/07/us/...www.cnn.com%2F
Hacienda is a big company. Closing that one facility is not going to protect them from lawsuits.

BTW, the CEO of Hacienda resigned a few days after this broke. I think the problems may run deeper than that one facility. I'd be surprised if those responsible for the patients there aren't getting ready to pull them out in any case. Would you want to send a loved one to a facility with such bad oversight?
  #121  
Old 03-05-2019, 10:02 AM
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The defendant, Nathan Sutherland, has entered a not-guilty plea and voluntarily surrendered his nursing license: https://www.azcentral.com/story/news...ea/2770683002/
  #122  
Old 03-06-2019, 09:13 AM
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During the initial appearance, Sutherland's attorney said there was "minimum evidence" his client committed the crime, and they intended to have their own DNA testing performed.
Minimal evidence? A woman in a coma gives birth to a baby with your DNA, and that's minimal evidence? Unless he has an identical twin brother who was in a position to rape the woman, he is screwed.

Last edited by Annie-Xmas; 03-06-2019 at 09:14 AM.
  #123  
Old 03-06-2019, 10:26 AM
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I expect he's going to use the Boris Becker defence of semen transfer. Someone obtained his semen and fertilised the patient with it. Being on the hook for child support is far less of a penalty than a rape conviction. If he had been having a relationship with one of the other members of staff at the time that ended I might even believe it.

Remember that the prosecution have to prove the offence beyond reasonable doubt.
  #124  
Old 03-06-2019, 12:16 PM
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I expect he's going to use the Boris Becker defence of semen transfer. Someone obtained his semen and fertilised the patient with it. Being on the hook for child support is far less of a penalty than a rape conviction. If he had been having a relationship with one of the other members of staff at the time that ended I might even believe it.

Remember that the prosecution have to prove the offence beyond reasonable doubt.
I have never heard of this Boris Becker defense. Could you elucidate?
  #125  
Old 03-06-2019, 12:27 PM
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Link. Can you imagine the kind of abuse and neglect it takes to not only rape a comatose patient, but also not notice a baby growing inside of her until she gives birth to him? This is one of the worst things I've ever seen.
Don't know. I see the other day a 90+ yo woman in an assisted living center being insulted, beaten and thrown around by a nurse while she was begging for mercy (literally using this word, or rather the French equivalent) and I found it pretty bad.
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  #126  
Old 03-06-2019, 12:50 PM
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I have never heard of this Boris Becker defense. Could you elucidate?
My earlier reply got lunches.

TLDR Someone gave BB a BJ and saved the sperm and inseminated herself.
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  #127  
Old 03-06-2019, 12:53 PM
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I've a hunch that, as the story develops, one obvious suspect will emerge, with enough probable cause that the police will be able to get a warrant for his DNA.

That said, a legal hypothetical: Suppose that it were possible to narrow down the list of possible suspects to a finite and manageable number. And suppose that all but one of those men voluntarily offered a DNA sample to the police, and that all of those samples were verified as not being the father. Could that fact be used as evidence against the last suspect?
This happened in France, following the rape/murder of a British teen on a school trip at a youth hotel in a village. All men residing in the village volunteered for DNA testing except one dude. The police got a warrant as a result, but the test was negative. He was just opposed on principle to this general DNA testing.

The actual culprit was finally identified years later but stayed at large for a long time. Finally, one day, an American immigration officer in an airport was reading an article about the case in a newspaper when a guy looking exactly like the wanted man he had just seen the picture of showed up at his desk. He was promptly arrested and extradited.
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