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Old 05-16-2018, 07:43 AM
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How has this board changed over the years

In what significant ways has the nature of this board changed over the years?
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Old 05-16-2018, 07:58 AM
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I joined in 2009. That was a pretty big deal.
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Old 05-16-2018, 08:01 AM
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I was in college when I joined in 1999, when message boards were really blossoming. I remember it having a gigantic number of threads and a vast number of posters. It felt very impersonal to me. I drifted away because BreakupGirl became a hugely popular site for people of my age group. I mean, is there anything that girls would rather talk about more than love and relationships? After Oprah bought the site, it died in an amazingly short period of time, and I moved on to other relationship based sites like "Nice Guys", etc.

Message boards in general have declined greatly because of Facebook, Twitter, texting, etc. The fact that this site is still vibrant and interesting is an incredible testament to the way it has been run over the years and the quality of its content.
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Old 05-16-2018, 08:18 AM
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I've been curious about this, too.

I joined in 2010, which was not all that long ago. But since the election, I think the tone has gotten nastier and snarkier, especially in the politically-related forums. Was the Pit even used all that much before a year+ ago?
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Old 05-16-2018, 08:23 AM
madmonk28 madmonk28 is offline
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I joined right when it stopped being exclusive on AOL. I had a different user name back then, which I don't remember, andI forgot the password and started a new account as Madmonk28. Technically, I've been a sock for that other account for the past 19 years or so.

I'll wait for the ban hammer. Until then, I'll say that the board is more insular than it used to be. It seems like there's a lot of the same people having the same conversations. I guess it's inevitable that would happen at a board that's been around this long and I don't know what could be done about it. A lot of what this board does is now done by other platforms, but the SD has a community with norms and a history that can't be replaced. One of my favorite things about this board is that people write in complete sentences and make an effort to post coherent essays; it's part of what makes it special.
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Old 05-16-2018, 08:47 AM
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It had a much more "soap opera" vibe back when I first joined. There seemed to be more than a few posters who constantly had drama swirling around them, which was only magnified by Dopefests, which happened much more frequently back then, in which much alcohol (and possibly other substance) was consumed.

And a lot of backbiting and sniping on other venues (Livejournal, etc). Oh, sure we've still got other sites where people talk about SDMB posters, but back then, it was much more...snarky and focused. There seemed to be a whole cottage industry associated with SDMB snark.
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Old 05-16-2018, 08:52 AM
madmonk28 madmonk28 is offline
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That's a good observation. There did seem to be more drama and it did seem to bleed out into real life. People followed each other around to other platforms, I forgot about that.
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Old 05-16-2018, 09:07 AM
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I joined in 2005. The biggest change I have seen is the pace of posting. In my memory, I would write a post, hit preview, and usually find that about ten replies had been posted since I started writing mine, at least one of which contained my own brilliant insight. I discarded a lot of posts back then.
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Old 05-16-2018, 09:35 AM
Northern Piper Northern Piper is offline
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Yes, the Boards used to be faster. I think the number of active posting members have gone down, and the average age of posters has gone up; not so many new members joining, because message boards are sooo yesterday.

I also think the election of Trump has really affected the boards. The number of Trump related threads in all forums is tremendous. If you're not interested in all-Trump-all-the-time, it's a bit depressing.

The Pit, though - hoo-boy. Back when you could pit moderators and use much nastier language - I stayed away from it pretty much. I go there now more regularly, but don't really like posting there.

I think the posting membership has steadily drifted leftwards. We used to have more active posters on the right-wing side, but many of those have drifted away, which I think reduces the debate, unfortunately. I also think the political debates have gotten sharper and meaner. (Although the debates during the Great Election Recount of 2000 were pretty heated.)
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Old 05-16-2018, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by ThelmaLou View Post
Was the Pit even used all that much before a year+ ago?
Heh, heh.

You have no idea. The Pit used to be a free-wheeling cage match, no holds barred. Today's version is Saturday Morning Kiddy Show by comparison.

As for the political nature of the Pit, ask old timers about the late Reeder and his obsession with "W." Or "My post is my cite" Aldebaran.

Last edited by silenus; 05-16-2018 at 09:44 AM.
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Old 05-16-2018, 10:16 AM
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I remember when the server was over worked, people would get PISSED at misleading thread titles.

You'd click n a thread, 2 minutes later the thread would actually open, only to find out the thread is a "joke".

The Pit was more fun back in the day. I recall there being a mass exodus (a temporary one) over rule changes in the Pit.
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Old 05-16-2018, 10:19 AM
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We used to have more babbys, trenches and pies.
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Old 05-16-2018, 10:39 AM
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As a newbie, I can tell you first hand, newbies are beaten up to the point of distraction. If I hadn't have had a friend or 2, I would've walked on months ago. If we want the board to build up again there has got to be a place where newbies can learn the board culture and rules safely without the cursing and name calling. That is another point of contention I have, the name calling and foul language for nothing more than a typo or mis-placed comma is crazy. It is just so juvenile. Anywhoo that's my thoughts on it, FWIW.
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Old 05-16-2018, 10:43 AM
Jonathan Chance Jonathan Chance is offline
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Those should be reported. Even if we don't act on all such reports, they're reviewed. And such can cause mods to intervene on the side of the newbie.
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Old 05-16-2018, 10:51 AM
Morgenstern Morgenstern is offline
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Originally Posted by Beckdawrek View Post
As a newbie, I can tell you first hand, newbies are beaten up to the point of distraction. If I hadn't have had a friend or 2, I would've walked on months ago. If we want the board to build up again there has got to be a place where newbies can learn the board culture and rules safely without the cursing and name calling. That is another point of contention I have, the name calling and foul language for nothing more than a typo or mis-placed comma is crazy. It is just so juvenile. Anywhoo that's my thoughts on it, FWIW.

Frankly, I'm glad you stuck it out. You'll be fine here. But I'd like to point out that noobs are not beaten up without cause. We won't go there, but for others who bring things like text speak, comic sans, bright colored fonts, and conspiracy theories, well yeah, they get roughed up a tad. Pity the poor Christian who wants to witness. Pity the Republican who wants to discuss how athletic trump is. Trolls and trocks generally follow the same pattern, lots of unsupported opinions and no facts needed or desired in response. The past was far bloodier I think.
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Old 05-16-2018, 11:03 AM
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There used to be a more Wild West feeling here. There were a lot of different topics, and without Wikipedia and other online resources, arguments would rage on until someone could dig up an actual first edition of Darwin's On the Origin of a Species to settle it, etc. There were board wars including a couple of invasions by Fundamentalists that had the liberal Christians and hard-core atheists united for once.

As for those who say the board is more politicized now, I've been here starting with the aftermath of the Clinton impeachment, through Bush v. Gore, 9/11, the Iraq War, the 2004 election, the 2006 election, the 2008 election. . . It was political then and it's political now.

Last edited by kunilou; 05-16-2018 at 11:04 AM.
  #17  
Old 05-16-2018, 11:05 AM
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The Pit was more fun back in the day.
Indeed. The Pit used to be far more entertaining. How long has it been since we've had a good rant?
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Old 05-16-2018, 11:16 AM
Jonathan Chance Jonathan Chance is offline
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I remember when the server was over worked, people would get PISSED at misleading thread titles.
Heck, you guys remember we used to limit threads to about 300 replies? To reduce server load mods - before my time - would close threads that hit that limit.
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Old 05-16-2018, 11:22 AM
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Smaller and maybe less active but the main thing that springs to my brain is that we seem much less snarky than we did. And calls for "cite?" are fewer and further between. When I first started posting you could (as I remember) not get through 5 posts in a thread before at least one call for a citation.
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Old 05-16-2018, 11:37 AM
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As a newbie, I can tell you first hand, newbies are beaten up to the point of distraction.
People like that want to bait you into an argument. I think it's important to maintain the difference between a debate and an argument. I say what I think. You say what you think. We answer each other's challenges/questions ONCE, and that's the end. Past that, they can pursue an argument in an "empty room" if they so desire. All I can say is that it"s a philosophy that has served me well.

Another useful tool for me is knowing my own hot spots and triggers. For example, I have nothing but complete loathing and disrespect for the current President of the United States. I know that, if I get into any discussion about him at all, it is very likely that I will cross into "warning" territory rather quickly. So, I avoid that. That has also served me well.
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Old 05-16-2018, 12:10 PM
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That is another point of contention I have, the name calling and foul language for nothing more than a typo or mis-placed (sic) comma is crazy.
misplaced.
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Old 05-16-2018, 12:19 PM
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misplaced.
Heh! Funny.
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Old 05-16-2018, 12:27 PM
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As a newbie, I can tell you first hand, newbies are beaten up to the point of distraction. If I hadn't have had a friend or 2, I would've walked on months ago. If we want the board to build up again there has got to be a place where newbies can learn the board culture and rules safely without the cursing and name calling. That is another point of contention I have, the name calling and foul language for nothing more than a typo or mis-placed comma is crazy. It is just so juvenile. Anywhoo that's my thoughts on it, FWIW.
I don't discount your experience, but mine was different. When I joined I felt very welcomed, even when I got push back for weak arguments and the like. My second post here had a grammatical error, which funny since I was commenting on how much a priority using good grammar was, and I was teased, but not abused.

As JC said, report abusive posts so we can look at them.

Last edited by IvoryTowerDenizen; 05-16-2018 at 12:29 PM. Reason: Bc I can’t mention grammar wo screwing it up
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Old 05-16-2018, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by IvoryTowerDenizen View Post
I don't discount your experience, but mine was different. When I joined I felt very welcomed, even when I got push back for weak arguments and the like. My second post here had a grammatical error, which funny since I was commenting on how much a priority using good grammar was, and i was teased, but not abused.

As JC said, report abusive posts so we can look at them.
Which funny, huh?




  #25  
Old 05-16-2018, 12:30 PM
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Which funny, huh?




Dammit. And I had just edited out another error. Seriously. I should never mention grammar.

(Furiously proofreads post)

Last edited by IvoryTowerDenizen; 05-16-2018 at 12:30 PM.
  #26  
Old 05-16-2018, 12:32 PM
Leo Bloom Leo Bloom is offline
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Originally Posted by IvoryTowerDenizen View Post
I don't discount your experience, but mine was different. When I joined I felt very welcomed, even when I got push back for weak arguments and the like. My second post here had a grammatical error, which funny since I was commenting on how much a priority using good grammar was, and I was teased, but not abused.

As JC said, report abusive posts so we can look at them.
I like this post, which nice meta self reference.

eta: ninja'd. So who says important responses are slow in coming?

Last edited by Leo Bloom; 05-16-2018 at 12:34 PM.
  #27  
Old 05-16-2018, 12:40 PM
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I like this post, which nice meta self reference.

eta: ninja'd. So who says important responses are slow in coming?
Funny, funny boy.
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Old 05-16-2018, 12:55 PM
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I have heard that some old timers miss the annual rebate checks for high click-count posts...
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Old 05-16-2018, 01:28 PM
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It's hard for me to assess how much the board has changed because I have been changing too. These days I stay away from angrily contentious threads, so to me the board seems calmer and more relaxed. Also I don't participate in other message boards so I don't have anything to contrast to. I suspect, from what I've heard, that the moderation and general tone here will have spoiled me for other boards.
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Old 05-16-2018, 01:30 PM
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Fewer yaks.
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Old 05-16-2018, 01:34 PM
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I was a lurker on these boards off and on in the 90s and early 2000s, and there was a distinct 'clubhouse' vibe that isn't really around now. There were a lot of Dope-related meetups, and a lot of board personalities talking to each other in person about other people. There were a ton of in-jokes (like the "Hi, Opal" thing), a lot more 'blog post' threads, and a sort of incestuous feeling to it. Paradoxically, there was also a lot more in-depth discussion on GQ posts - while you still get an occasional interesting one, getting multiple pages of people adding interesting comments (not just flamewar or joke posts) was routine.
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Old 05-16-2018, 01:40 PM
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We're all a lot older!

From what polls we've had about age, birth year, etc., the median age of active Dopers is apparently somewhere in the mid-40s. So there's a lot more posters in their 60s and 70s than there were when this board got started.
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Old 05-16-2018, 01:40 PM
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I've been around since 2002 and I really do believe there's a lot more nastiness and hostility now between those of different political persuasions. Of course that probably just reflects the world outside the board.
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Old 05-16-2018, 01:43 PM
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As others have noted, there is a lot less drama than there used to be. I'd say that's roughly equal parts due to the moderators (won't say they've never done anything I disagreed with, but on the whole they're great), and the fact that (as I just mentioned) we're all a lot older. Eventually almost all of us get tired of gratuitous drama.
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Old 05-16-2018, 01:54 PM
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I found the Straight Dope after watching a TV show that mentioned someone had been guillotined and blinked for some number of times afterwards, which seemed like a huge load of BS to me, so I went searching on the internet and found Cecil's article about decapitation. I was instantly hooked on the articles, and now I own all of the books (I know some folks are like "There are books?"). I'm still a complete junkie for the articles.

I can give them up at any time, I swear, dude.... just not this week, ok?

When I first looked at the message boards, I found them to be very cliquish and not very welcoming to newbies. If I hadn't been completely hooked on Cecil's articles, I would have never stuck around. About a year later, I finally warmed up to the message boards and joined. I mostly stayed in GQ though. It took me a long time to branch out into other forums. These days, the only place I don't go is the Pit.

The boards got a lot less cliquish after a few years, but I still think we have a long way to go towards being newbie-friendly. One thing I took away from the recent zombie discussion is the realization that some people here have absolutely no clue about how rude and unwelcoming they are.
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Old 05-16-2018, 02:14 PM
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I was a collector of the books but I can't remember if it was one of them or the TV show that had the AOL website advertised in the back.

The board has changed a lot over the last 20+ years, it used to be the go-to for factual answers and honest debate. That has changed significantly due to the creation of websites such as Wikipedia, Snopes, etc..

I also don't remember moderators decisions being challenged, defended, and debated as much.

Last edited by Sparky812; 05-16-2018 at 02:14 PM.
  #37  
Old 05-16-2018, 02:45 PM
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how I found the dope online was aol used to have this keyword "random" and it would bring out a roulette wheel and youd go to different forums at randon

but I learned about the column through a article in readers digest

The first cecil article I read online was a thing on the meaning steve millers "the pompatus of love " because there was a movie named after it .....


One thing that's changed is we don't have as many "proudly" antisocial members or they don't post as much anyway I remember the topic was someone had a job where you had to be somewhat social and the op was " I don't want to socialize just let me work and go home "

It delved into sadness really quick where people were proud that they sat out the xmas party and just did word puzzles in their office .......
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Old 05-16-2018, 02:55 PM
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remember when the board would shut down for an hour or two a night for maintence ? or when the board was down for almost 2 months and tuba resorted to paying for temporary boards because we overloaded all the free ones back then ?

actually my first friend was opal who would send me nice mommy like pms telling me to go to bed after she noticed that I had been posting about every 15-20 minutes for 3 days .....(she thought I was on stuff .....but its just my weird sleeping problems)

But I do miss some of the posters we don't see anymore like stoid eve esperix ..........

we also only had 5 forums back then too

Last edited by nightshadea; 05-16-2018 at 03:00 PM.
  #39  
Old 05-16-2018, 03:26 PM
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As a newbie, I can tell you first hand, newbies are beaten up to the point of distraction. If I hadn't have had a friend or 2, I would've walked on months ago. If we want the board to build up again there has got to be a place where newbies can learn the board culture and rules safely without the cursing and name calling. That is another point of contention I have, the name calling and foul language for nothing more than a typo or mis-placed comma is crazy. It is just so juvenile. Anywhoo that's my thoughts on it, FWIW.
When I first got on here (2006), Exapno Mapcase replied to a couple of my posts in what I considered a needlessly nitpicky and snotty manner. I couldn't fathom what I had said that could have gotten me dead into his crosshairs like that. I left in a miffed mood and almost didn't come back (3 months later).

Note that the concept of reporting posts was simply not grasped, at all, and I doubt most newbies would know that there is even a relatively well-run mod loop here that they can appeal to, at all.
  #40  
Old 05-16-2018, 04:08 PM
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As a newbie, I can tell you first hand, newbies are beaten up to the point of distraction. If I hadn't have had a friend or 2, I would've walked on months ago. If we want the board to build up again there has got to be a place where newbies can learn the board culture and rules safely without the cursing and name calling....
I can empathize. My join date says 2008 but I've really only become active about the last two years, and I still feel like a 'newbie'. It's no secret message board activity is down everywhere and the reasons for it have a great deal more to do with new technologies and changing demographics than any posting behaviors here. It's nice of you suggest the board might be built up again, but that's unlikely to occur due to the aforementioned reasons, despite many people's good intentions and efforts otherwise.

This board's activity will likely continue to decline through attrition, but a very active and committed core here suggests The End will not be coming for a number of years and a lot of good interactions can take place here in the meantime. To that end, it's a good idea to make new posters feel welcome.

As it happens I've been a moderator on another message board for a number of years and have found myself dealing with the same issues this board is facing. As far as the moderating here goes I give it a solid A-/B+ and seems to run the gamut from competent to downright superb. Speaking as an 'outsider' the moderating staff here plays the 'balancing act' as well as any group can.

Bad moderating can hurt a message board, but as indicated that's not particularly a problem here. There appears to be, however, a few cultural things that are actively working to discourage new posters: offering unsolicited criticism is typically received as well as a turd in a punchbowl and IRL can get you a broken nose, yet, it's not uncommon here. A number of posters seem to take delight in finding fault in other posters' spelling, grammar, (and, yes, faulty reasoning). I understand this board is ostensibly dedicated to 'fighting ignorance' but there's a strong impression that many of these corrections have much more to do with bolstering some folks' egos while trying to make others look foolish than they have to do with transmitting enlightenment. There's a right way and a wrong way to approach this.

One can see some of what I call 'old-timer syndrome'. This usually manifests itself when long time posters visibly lose patience with the new guys and grouse when 'old' topics get resurrected or reintroduced, sometimes with testy comments like 'yeah, here's link to a similar discussion we had about this back in 2007. Why dontcha do a search before you start a new discussion...'. Or 'gah, not another snowflake starting a thread about (whatever)...' [/cyber eye roll]. This sort of thing tends to exert a chilling effect on new posters.

Lastly, there's the age old question about what to do about the 'special' posters. Not really the 'one and dones', but the clueless-contrary ones who you can just tell from the get-go are going to end up banned sooner rather than later. It can be 'fun' to prod such specimens with a stick when they surface. There IS a certain entertainment value there and I've been known to do this very thing myself elsewhere, BUT upon more sober reflection it becomes apparent this sort of thing readily lends itself to the impression that there is an US and a THEM. Sure, the clueless poster is getting barbecued for being, well, clueless, but a newbie seeing this situation unfold is left with the feeling that cliques prevail and that the pack will gnaw on outsiders who displease them and can just as easily be turned off by this sort of interaction as entertained.

Anywho, I asked about this board's historical changes because I was wondering how it compared to the other board I hang out on. I particularly liked the Old West analogy and can see that description also aptly described the other board about 15 years ago. Interesting stuff.
  #41  
Old 05-16-2018, 04:10 PM
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I was a lurker here a loooong time before I pulled the trigger, and there are a couple of trends I've noticed (maybe these are not new trends, but they seem to be gaining momentum):
1) Some posters don't seem to pay attention to which forum they are in. . .the pit seems to have influenced the other fora.
b) Some (many) members seem to respond more to the poster than the post.
3) Some members have little patience for topics they feel they've already argued to death, even when a newbie brings it up... not everyone has been here since '99, ya know. (ninja'd by Cardigan)
and finally, I agree wholeheartedly with Jasmine once you've made your point, move on. Threads seem to often devolve into the same two (or 3 or 4) posters going around in circles saying the same thing over and over.

mc

Last edited by mikecurtis; 05-16-2018 at 04:13 PM.
  #42  
Old 05-16-2018, 04:22 PM
Chimera Chimera is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardigan View Post
I can empathize.
The only thing I'm going to disagree with here is the 'faulty reasoning' thing. That sort of thing SHOULD be pointed out. If you don't understand that part of your process for arriving at a conclusion is based on faulty reasoning or false information, you're going to remain ignorant unless someone points it out.
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Have lost my patience with the refusal to moderate trolls and hate on this board and am taking a break.
  #43  
Old 05-16-2018, 04:24 PM
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Guinastasia Guinastasia is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RTFirefly View Post
We're all a lot older!

From what polls we've had about age, birth year, etc., the median age of active Dopers is apparently somewhere in the mid-40s. So there's a lot more posters in their 60s and 70s than there were when this board got started.
When I first started posting here, it seemed there was actually a larger range of ages. We had some teenagers, college students, older folks, etc. Now? It seems the youngest are in their mid thirties, but most of the people here are around Gen-X, Baby Boomers. And they're more hostile to outsiders. Not that we flame newbies, but there's less of a welcoming atmosphere, as in, "we don't want the WRONG people coming in here!" It's gotten really snobby.

And yeah, the Pit was definitely more fun back in the day. And we used to keep nutjobs around a lot longer it seemed, and people were allowed to indulge them. Now most of the trolls we get are sympathy ones, and the rare crackpots get banned before the fun begins.
  #44  
Old 05-16-2018, 04:28 PM
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engineer_comp_geek engineer_comp_geek is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightshadea View Post
remember when the board would shut down for an hour or two a night for maintence ?
I've caught it a couple of times in the wee hours of the morning, so it still does go down for maintenance periodically. The shutdown time seems to be fairly short though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nightshadea View Post
or when the board was down for almost 2 months and tuba resorted to paying for temporary boards because we overloaded all the free ones back then ?
Ah, yes, the Winter of Our Missed Content. I added the date range for it to our glossary of terms a while ago, and was surprised by the dates. For some reason I thought it was several years later than when it actually occurred.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nightshadea View Post
actually my first friend was opal who would send me nice mommy like pms telling me to go to bed after she noticed that I had been posting about every 15-20 minutes for 3 days .....(she thought I was on stuff .....but its just my weird sleeping problems)
I suffer from insomnia. It sucks for me sometimes, but it's probably good for the SDMB. If I'm up I get to whack some of the late night spammers. You're not the only one with weird sleeping issues. I woke up at 3 am last night and haven't slept since.

I met Opal a few times in real life. She was a nice woman. My wife and I had some nice conversations with her. I also found out that it is surprisingly difficult to work "hi Opal" into a conversation when you are actually saying hi to Opal.

I asked her if the "hi Opal" thing bothered her. She said it didn't, though there were other times when she wasn't quite so accepting of it.
  #45  
Old 05-16-2018, 04:41 PM
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Omar Little Omar Little is offline
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I remember when Cecil mentioned to me that he was thinking about starting a message board. This was back in the mid 80's. It was right after the 1986 Superbowl. We were cruising down Bourbon Street with several friends from Chicago trying to meet up with Ditka for the post game celebration, when Cecil looked at me and said "teeming millions!" I just grinned at him as he grabbed one of the Bears Cheerleader's ass and kept on walking. Who know then it would end up like it has.
  #46  
Old 05-16-2018, 04:44 PM
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Cardigan Cardigan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimera View Post
The only thing I'm going to disagree with here is the 'faulty reasoning' thing. That sort of thing SHOULD be pointed out.
I think everyone can agree faulty reasoning should be corrected. Ideally, it should be done in a manner that allows folks to save face. That's often not the case.
  #47  
Old 05-16-2018, 04:50 PM
Jonathan Chance Jonathan Chance is offline
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I actually miss hosting dopers at my place.

When I started here I lived NW of Washington DC on a bunch of acres and would, twice a year, host enormous parties with up to 200 guests. Inviting dopers - we called ourselves MADs for Mid-Atlantic Dopers - would up both the guest list and how interesting it was.

I've tried to do it a few times over the last few years but I think the depth of penetration here in the south is much lighter. Or we're just less social now.

In addition, several of the attendee of those parties are now gone. Dances_with_cats, Opal, some others.
  #48  
Old 05-16-2018, 05:31 PM
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Beckdawrek Beckdawrek is online now
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I don't mind constructive criticism, at all. I'll take my meds like a big girl. I would think most folks would, as well.
I'd much prefer not being called names or cursed, though.
  #49  
Old 05-16-2018, 07:34 PM
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Guinastasia Guinastasia is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Chance View Post
I actually miss hosting dopers at my place.

When I started here I lived NW of Washington DC on a bunch of acres and would, twice a year, host enormous parties with up to 200 guests. Inviting dopers - we called ourselves MADs for Mid-Atlantic Dopers - would up both the guest list and how interesting it was.

I've tried to do it a few times over the last few years but I think the depth of penetration here in the south is much lighter. Or we're just less social now.

In addition, several of the attendee of those parties are now gone. Dances_with_cats, Opal, some others.
I remember going to Dope-aween at your place the one year. (2004, I think?) At least, I think it was your place.
  #50  
Old 05-16-2018, 10:12 PM
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Duckster Duckster is offline
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Let's not forget there's a generational change. Grabbing my extra wide sawdust broom, there's a younger generation afoot with such a self-absorbed and short attention span, in-depth debate, argument, even silliness, is lost with them.
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