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  #201  
Old 05-16-2018, 11:24 AM
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ETA: more data on this that totally destroys the argument that immigrants are more likely to be criminals.
  #202  
Old 05-16-2018, 12:16 PM
Ruined Ruined is offline
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I have not responded because most posts have asked for sources or taken something I have said out of context and turned it into a black or white view.

There are 2 posts I would like to mention however. Thank you for the warm greetings from a few users I appreciate it. I was linked here from another site and can see that despite this being the pit there seems to be a desire for discussion across the user base.

Second the mod. I want to let you know that I put that there on purpose. I knew my post would be addressed the way it has and also knew that the recognition of that word tells me a lot about the person posting.

I do not use the word in question with sexuality in mind, I have a couple gay friends that reminded me I don't need permission to use a word over the years after watching them use it in the same manner I do. This also has happened with the N word.

I am a staunch defender of our use of language and it's protections as a God given right. Disrespect is the same regardless of the word being used and I would hope that you don't ban people for words in a forum dedicated to fighting ignorance.

I have adjusted some of my opinions and how I will present them in the future thanks to some of the ideas discussed here. Thank you.
  #203  
Old 05-16-2018, 12:21 PM
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Your need to use the word "fag" in rational discourse is so strong that you feel an urge to defend yourself? Seems like a lot of work for little gain.
  #204  
Old 05-16-2018, 12:23 PM
Ruined Ruined is offline
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Your need to use the word "fag" in rational discourse is so strong that you feel an urge to defend yourself? Seems like a lot of work for little gain.
It will always be a hill I'm willing to die on, yes.
  #205  
Old 05-16-2018, 12:29 PM
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It will always be a hill I'm willing to die on, yes.
OK then. Good luck with that.
  #206  
Old 05-16-2018, 12:31 PM
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Well, I guess we won't be seeing you around much longer.
  #207  
Old 05-16-2018, 12:39 PM
elucidator elucidator is online now
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"Its not his ignorance that scares me, its all the things he knows for certain that just ain't so."
= Mark Twain (attrib.)
  #208  
Old 05-16-2018, 12:43 PM
Ruined Ruined is offline
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"Its not his ignorance that scares me, its all the things he knows for certain that just ain't so."
= Mark Twain (attrib.)
Good quote I see it all over conservative forums too in reference to liberals(leftists).

Also yes from what else I have seen here this forum is great for echos. I'm sure I'll lurk until it gets too repetitive.
  #209  
Old 05-16-2018, 12:49 PM
Morgenstern Morgenstern is offline
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...

...

Second the mod. I want to let you know that I put that there on purpose. I knew my post would be addressed the way it has and also knew that the recognition of that word tells me a lot about the person posting.

I do not use the word in question with sexuality in mind, I have a couple gay friends that reminded me I don't need permission to use a word over the years after watching them use it in the same manner I do. This also has happened with the N word.

...

I've never seen a stronger warning from that mod than the one you received for blatant bigotry in your previous posts. Either you're a bigot, or you choose to act like a bigot with your post. One way you're a jerk, the other you're a troll. Either way, you're not going to make it.
  #210  
Old 05-16-2018, 12:51 PM
elucidator elucidator is online now
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Good quote I see it all over conservative forums too in reference to liberals(leftists)....
I am not fit to sharpen his pencils, you are not fit to see them.

Last edited by elucidator; 05-16-2018 at 12:52 PM.
  #211  
Old 05-16-2018, 12:53 PM
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Good quote I see it all over conservative forums too in reference to liberals(leftists).

Also yes from what else I have seen here this forum is great for echos. I'm sure I'll lurk until it gets too repetitive.
First - Welcome to the Straight Dope. Second - This is the Pit. Among other things, it's not a forum designed for reasoned debate or even civil discourse. If you'd like to engage in more substantive discussion, other forums on the board may be more receptive.

Third - I encourage you to read the rules of the board, as well as each individual forum because they operate differently.

Fourth - There is a board wide rule against hate speech. If you wish to participate on the boards, you will not use hate speech anywhere on the boards. Racial slurs are included in that category, as well as your use of the word "fag", among others. It's not about fighting ignorance, it's about not being a fucking hateful asshole. Don't do that, and you'll be fine.
  #212  
Old 05-16-2018, 12:55 PM
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It will always be a hill I'm willing to die on, yes.
No-one has ever needed permission to use the words: fag, nigger, kike, etc...

But as with so many things in life, context is everything. If you think you're a hero of free speech by using these terms in a provocative, 'try and stop me', sort of way, or worse still - as a slur - well, the rest of us will be quite happy to call you out as a biggotted asshole.

Welcome to the board. Enjoy your stay.
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  #213  
Old 05-16-2018, 12:56 PM
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We operate as hopeful monsters, convinced that fighting ignorance will destroy hate. Maybe it ain't so, but what the Hell, nothing better to do.
  #214  
Old 05-16-2018, 12:59 PM
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Yeah, Ruins claim that the EPA is a joke was pretty much the topper for me. Well amongst a whole bunch of other bullshit.
Please learn to parse. Ruined asserted that the EPA is a joke. What do you notice about that statement? How about “The EPA is a joke”. Note the present tense, which makes no reference to the condition or effectiveness of the agency at any point in the past. And who, again is currently in control of the administration of the EPA?

I understand that the work of that agency has been vilified by people and the pawns of people who are annoyed at being forced to behave responsibly. People who either fail to understand the larger concerns or just do not give a shit about anything but laziness and/or profitability. Those people are good fodder for manipulation.

Last edited by eschereal; 05-16-2018 at 12:59 PM.
  #215  
Old 05-16-2018, 01:00 PM
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This is the only point of debate where I see any resemblance to our recently departed friend: he's willing to stand and die (or argue and watch us dance) on whether or not some word is bigotted.

Last edited by Sunny Daze; 05-16-2018 at 01:00 PM.
  #216  
Old 05-16-2018, 01:02 PM
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Knowing I'm probably going to get flamed, I'll answer

North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) really hurt the middle of the country. Yes any realignment of trade will hurt someone, but it was felt most by those states with heavy emphasis on manufacturing industries like Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Indiana, and California. They all had major job losses. It's doesn't take an accountant to figure out that paying $15 or less is better than $25 or more, even when you factor in the cost of moving the factor. That along with the promised about increased jobs and exports didn't really appear to those who lost their jobs. And yes I know companies are still leaving even under Trump. (BTW in my posts I don't say President anyone, since I didn't use it for any past presidents I won't use it for Trump as when I refer to The President I mean the office not the person)

The left's stand on gun control. In the middle of the country that's a big deal. And I along with many other see it as the elite left trying to make laws without understanding in many cases what a gun can and can't do. I won't go into all the misinformed "facts" that the left has spouted, but it's safe to say many times they have NO idea what they are talking about. That whole "assault" weapon is a prime example. the AR-15 works just like most semi-automatic and it's basically an 22 with a lot more powder, but the left makes it seem like these guns are the most evil thing ever unleashed. When you look at the facts and the small number of death per year caused by long guns (the AR-15 is a long gun) many, including me, see it as the first step in an all and out gun ban.

Immigration, the fact they are talking about letting people who have broken the law, and in many cases many laws, stay in the country and maybe becoming citizens, while at the same time punishing people who try and follow the law seems unfair. Is it sad that someone was brought into the US illegally when they were young and who is now looking at being deported? Sure, but they only have to look to the people who brought them here illegally or who overstayed their VISA. For anyone who not a citizen to DEMAND we let them stay, who DEMAND they should be become citizen, is to many like a crook demanding they shouldn't have to follow the law. Remember we were told in the 1980's that if we gave a ONE time amnesty that our immigration laws would be strictly enforced. And for the record I know people who have lost jobs to illegal aliens.

MAGA, yes many people think that the congress and the president should be putting America first. Deals should be made in the best interest of the US not kissing up to Mexico, EU, or any other country.

In a nut shell many felt the country was going in the wrong direction, then add in the whole Hillary thing, and you have many of the reasons people voted for Trump. That whole e-mail scandal. What many people saw as an elite left getting away with breaking the law, basically one law for "them", you know the good people, and another law for everyone else. Same with her stand on sexual assault, you know "To every survivor of sexual assault...You have the right to be heard. You have the right to be believed. We're with you." Unless you're talking about Bill. You'll note she took that down from her web site during the election, after Broaddrick tweeted about her rape.

So a lot of people voted for Trump, partly because he was an outsider, partly because he wasn't Hillary, partly because he spoke his mind and didn't seem to care about the fallout, and partly because they felt the country was going the wrong direction.
  #217  
Old 05-16-2018, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by elucidator View Post
"Its not his ignorance that scares me, its all the things he knows for certain that just ain't so."
= Mark Twain (attrib.)
I can't say I've heard this one associated with Twain. I usually hear it attributed to Will Rogers. It does sound more like his style. That said, I have no definitive source for it. but I do like the quote and the sentiment.

edited to add -- according to this site, it was probably originally uttered by Josh Billings, but that Twain later used it, but giving it some attribution as not his own:

http://www.mcall.com/opinion/white/m...27-column.html

Quote:
This sent me to a book called "The Quote Verifier," by Ralph Keyes. As I recall, someone was giving these away to participants in a national columnist convention I attended years ago. The book demonstrates that few popular quotes are properly attributed, so I check it occasionally, though unfortunately not before I wrote that column. I had always associated the quote with Rogers.





Anyway, addressing the quote "It ain't so much the things we don't know that get us into trouble. It's the things we know that just ain't so," Keyes wrote that this popular observation most often gets attributed to Mark Twain, "as well as to fellow humorists Artemus Ward, Kin Hubbard and Will Rogers. Others to whom it's been credited include inventor Charles Kettering, pianist Eubie Blake and — by Al Gore — baseball player Yogi Berra."

Keyes noted that Twain did observe, "It isn't so astonishing the things I can remember, as the number of things I can remember that aren't so," but he said Twain's biographer reported he was paraphrasing a remark by humorist Josh Billings.

Keyes observed that Billings repeated this theme often in different forms, including, "I honestly believe it iz better tew know nothing than two know what ain't so." He concluded that Billings deserves the credit, which means this was a blooper on my part. On the bright side, the reader who wrote me wasn't right, either.
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Last edited by CalMeacham; 05-16-2018 at 01:11 PM.
  #218  
Old 05-16-2018, 01:11 PM
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Americans are a people who demand all undocumented aliens be deported immediately, and when iceberg lettuce is ten dollars a head, they'll blame Hillary.
  #219  
Old 05-16-2018, 01:13 PM
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Knowing I'm probably going to get flamed, I'll answer

North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA)
Only for your ignorance.

Do you think emigration from Mexico will just crash to a halt? No. We're a rich country with a poorer neighbor. As long as that is true, people will seek to move here from there. Helping them become better off helps us and solves that problem in the long run. Besides the fact that this whole argument is a bunch of shit when labor had been moving to cheaper countries (see: China) for a long time and the Republicans certainly were not doing anything about that, as most of the rich Republicans were making a killing off of it.

Quote:
The left's stand on gun control.
It may shock you to hear/read it, but not all of us Liberals are ignorant about guns. A lot of us own them. We also don't have any plans to ban them or seize them all, but we would like to put some limits on such things, such as bump-stocks and removing them from mentally ill and dangerous people. A reminder that the 2nd Amendment states "Well regulated militia", not "complete absence of controls because FREEDOM".

Quote:
Immigration,
Then as I will say to the end of time, the way to solve this problem is to treat the people who hire them as criminals and prosecute them. Until your side decides this is a good idea (which they won't, because rich Republicans hire illegal aliens), then you're blaming the wrong people and the wrong party.

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MAGA, yes many people think that the congress and the president should be putting America first. Deals should be made in the best interest of the US not kissing up to Mexico, EU, or any other country.
Because of course we've never done that before and freely give away the store.
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  #220  
Old 05-16-2018, 01:18 PM
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MAGA, yes many people think that the congress and the president should be putting America first. Deals should be made in the best interest of the US not kissing up to Mexico, EU, or any other country.

So a lot of people voted for Trump, partly because he was an outsider, partly because he wasn't Hillary, partly because he spoke his mind and didn't seem to care about the fallout, and partly because they felt the country was going the wrong direction.
How's that going for them so far?
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  #221  
Old 05-16-2018, 01:19 PM
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Second the mod. I want to let you know that I put that there on purpose.
I was not under the impression that you had included it by accident.

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I knew my post would be addressed the way it has and also knew that the recognition of that word tells me a lot about the person posting.
Not quite as much as it tells us about the person using it.

Quote:
I do not use the word in question with sexuality in mind, I have a couple gay friends that reminded me I don't need permission to use a word over the years after watching them use it in the same manner I do. This also has happened with the N word.
I don't care about your gay friends. You will not use that language on this board again, or you will be banned.

Quote:
I am a staunch defender of our use of language and it's protections as a God given right. Disrespect is the same regardless of the word being used and I would hope that you don't ban people for words in a forum dedicated to fighting ignorance.
There are no protections for you using hateful slurs on this message board. This board is privately owned, and what sort of language is allowed here is entirely up to the discretion of the owners. They have decided that they don't want racial, sexual, or religious slurs used on this board. If you cannot follow this instruction, then you are not welcome as a guest here.

Quote:
I have adjusted some of my opinions and how I will present them in the future thanks to some of the ideas discussed here. Thank you.
Well, if you're open to advice, "I'm not a bigot, ya fags!" is not a convincing argument.
  #222  
Old 05-16-2018, 01:28 PM
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Please learn to parse. Ruined asserted that the EPA is a joke. What do you notice about that statement? How about “The EPA is a joke”. Note the present tense, which makes no reference to the condition or effectiveness of the agency at any point in the past. And who, again is currently in control of the administration of the EPA?

I understand that the work of that agency has been vilified by people and the pawns of people who are annoyed at being forced to behave responsibly. People who either fail to understand the larger concerns or just do not give a shit about anything but laziness and/or profitability. Those people are good fodder for manipulation.
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Originally Posted by Ruined
He is close to disbanding the EPA because they are a joke.
I mis-quoted him. In any case, "The EPA is a joke" (my mis-quote) can be looked at in both present and past tense.

Anyway electing Pruitt is certainly a way to make the organization non-functioning.
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  #223  
Old 05-16-2018, 01:32 PM
Morgenstern Morgenstern is offline
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Americans are a people who demand all undocumented aliens be deported immediately, and when iceberg lettuce is ten dollars a head, they'll blame Hillary.
I'm still waiting for the taco trucks on every corner. I thought that was a damn fine idea. I guess we won't have that now.
  #224  
Old 05-16-2018, 01:39 PM
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MAGA, yes many people think that the congress and the president should be putting America first. Deals should be made in the best interest of the US not kissing up to Mexico, EU, or any other country.
Just Wanted to focus on this one real quick.

For domestic policies, putting america first makes sense. You are talking about americans, in america, and putting them first is pretty much by definition what you are supposed to do.

When it comes to international policies, it's a bit trickier. To put America first is to be an imperial power. If we insist on getting things our way, and use our military to back it up, we may get other countries to acquiesce to our demands, but only until we show our military to no longer be undefeatable.
  #225  
Old 05-16-2018, 01:51 PM
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How's that going for them so far?
About as well as these people
  #226  
Old 05-16-2018, 01:56 PM
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Ruined, I want to understand why you think Trump's tax cuts are a good idea. How do you justify trillion dollars deficits? Do you realize most of the cuts go to the wealthy, and most of the cuts for low earners are set to expire? The GOP has been hostile to Social Security and Medicare for decades- don't you think they will use the crushing debts burden as justification for cutting or eliminating those programs? If that comes to pass, would it not amount to a massive transfer of wealth from regular people to the wealthy? How would that fulfill the Constitutional instructions to "ensure domestic tranquility" and attend to the "general welfare" of the citizenry?
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  #227  
Old 05-16-2018, 01:59 PM
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About as well as these people
Or these people.
  #228  
Old 05-16-2018, 02:05 PM
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About as well as these people
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At least coal mining jobs are booming.
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Last edited by QuickSilver; 05-16-2018 at 02:06 PM.
  #229  
Old 05-16-2018, 02:23 PM
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Thank Trump for clean coal!
  #230  
Old 05-16-2018, 02:34 PM
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[QUOTE=Chimera;20963816

NOTE to all see about for the full text of the comments I’m responding too.

“Do you think emigration from Mexico will just crash to a halt?

No and in fact I want LEGAL immigration. If a person is willing to follow our laws then welcome, but if they come here illegally then they should be sent back immediately. I know one person who won a lottery to come into the US. She didn’t speak English, took a job cleaning bathrooms, even though she was well educated, but spoke almost no English. She worked hard and told me many times she cried herself to sleep, because she had no-one to talk too, but she now loves it here and tells everyone how lucky we are. So, immigration isn’t the real problem it’s those who have already proven they don’t respect our laws, who DEMAND we GIVE them citizenship that I have a problem with.

“..the fact that this whole argument is a bunch of shit when labor had been moving to cheaper countries (see: China) for a long time and the Republicans..”

I think you’ll find many Democrats and liberal leaning companies (cough apple) also made a killing sending job overseas also to just blame Republicans is unfair.

“It may shock you to hear/read it, but not all of us Liberals are ignorant about guns. A lot of us own them…. …. 2nd Amendment states "Well regulated militia", not "complete absence of controls because FREEDOM".

OK, well regulated meant in good working order, just like a watch that is well regulated isn’t a watch with a lot of regulations, it a watch in good working order. And in fact, when that was written citizens could buy anything they pleased, canons, multi shot rifles, etc. Personally, I think you’ll have a hard time finding any right that has been restricted as much as the 2nd. I never said ALL liberal are ignorant about guns, but I do have history on my side with government seizing guns without a warrant from many citizens, using registration list to threaten people who registered their legal gun only to have the state declare them illegal. Given the person admitted they owned a gun that is now on the ban list might give the police probable cause to search the house for said gun.

And have you listened to the politicians who are proposing the gun control laws? Many WANT a total ban, and have gone on record saying they want a total confiscation of guns. But, as I have pointed out too many on the left, just about all gun law will become mute, as 3d printing gets better and better. True right now a 3d printer capable of printing a semi-automatic gun is expensive. But the cost is dropping fast so soon it will be very cheap to print not only a semi-automatic gun but a fully automatic gun. Given that what make you or anyone else think the crooks are going to follow any law?

“Then as I will say to the end of time, the way to solve this problem is to treat the people who hire them as criminals and prosecute them.”

“My side” has said that repeatedly. I support a $10,000 per man hour worked fine of any business, CFO, President of any company, (yes all three would be fined) who knowingly hires or should have known the person they employ is not legal to work in the US. With the number of hours worked to be 2080 unless PROOF is provided that said person worked fewer hours. But given that is already law (the fine is very small) it would just need to be updated with much stiffer penalties.
  #231  
Old 05-16-2018, 02:36 PM
postpic200 postpic200 is offline
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How's that going for them so far?
For many people it's going good. They understand that you can't fix all the problems overnight, and the fact it seems to be working for them helps.
  #232  
Old 05-16-2018, 02:41 PM
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For many people it's going good. They understand that you can't fix all the problems overnight, and the fact it seems to be working for them helps.
Could you be more specific about the things that are "going good" that can be directly attributed to actions/policies of the Trump administration?
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  #233  
Old 05-16-2018, 02:41 PM
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Where do I get cauliflower leaves? I'm a fan of all things cabbage (Wife once corrected me saying, "They're all mustards,") and they sound awesome.
  #234  
Old 05-16-2018, 02:41 PM
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NOTE to all see about for the full text of the comments I’m responding too.
You've been here for nearly 10 years and never learned to manually quote?
  #235  
Old 05-16-2018, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by postpic200 View Post
“My side” has said that repeatedly. I support a $10,000 per man hour worked fine of any business, CFO, President of any company, (yes all three would be fined) who knowingly hires or should have known the person they employ is not legal to work in the US. With the number of hours worked to be 2080 unless PROOF is provided that said person worked fewer hours. But given that is already law (the fine is very small) it would just need to be updated with much stiffer penalties.
Considering how "your side" has Congress and the President, you'd think if they really supported this, the laws would have been passed already. But I haven't seen any. Have you?
  #236  
Old 05-16-2018, 02:47 PM
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Just Wanted to focus on this one real quick.

For domestic policies, putting america first makes sense. You are talking about americans, in america, and putting them first is pretty much by definition what you are supposed to do.

When it comes to international policies, it's a bit trickier. To put America first is to be an imperial power. If we insist on getting things our way, and use our military to back it up, we may get other countries to acquiesce to our demands, but only until we show our military to no longer be undefeatable.
Putting America first means getting the best deal we can for America. Do you think China, Mexico, etc are sitting back going, you know it's a bad deal for us, but we'll agree anyway? China is looking out for surprise China, Mexico is looking out for Mexico. Many people have seen the government taking bad deals, NAFTA is an example, we gave away a lot, and hurt a lot of Americans in the process. Mexico got a far better deal then we did. Free trade is a good idea, but as the EU has found out, the economies of the members countries have to be similar. If you have one country with much lower wages you have business moving to said country. And if you have open boarder you have people flooding the richer country.

Now as long as we don't force countries to do business with us ie military force, if they don't like the deal then they don't buy our goods or sell us their goods. If we need or want their good then we'd need to make a deal. And we should get the best deal we can.
  #237  
Old 05-16-2018, 02:47 PM
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It will always be a hill I'm willing to die on, yes.
Congratulations! You're an asshole!

If you want to say "The government wants to punish me for saying 'fag', please help," me and a good portion of the rest of the board's liberals will be right there to protect your right to free speech.

But if you want to say "The moderators on a private forum want to punish me for casually throwing out slurs, please help," me and most of the rest of the people with our heads screwed on straight will tell you to fuck right off. Because, as it turns out, your right to free speech does not negate our right to free association, and most of us just don't wanna hang out with the kind of people who will casually throw out "fag", any more than we'd want to hang around that one guy who keeps talking about how he hates niggers, or that one guy who keeps talking about how the world was so much better when all those uppity bitches knew how to stay in the kitchen.

Or, to put it more bluntly:

Quote:
I am a staunch defender of our use of language and it's protections as a God given right. Disrespect is the same regardless of the word being used and I would hope that you don't ban people for words in a forum dedicated to fighting ignorance.
I welcome you to go up to your boss and say, "Hey you fucking faggot, bite me." See how well that goes for you. See how far your "god given right" gets you.
  #238  
Old 05-16-2018, 02:49 PM
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You've been here for nearly 10 years and never learned to manually quote?
Yes I have, but given the length of post adding the whole quote would have made the post very long. And given that in the past using a partial quote with .... I have been accused of taking their words out of context. I felt it was better to point to the whole post rather then rehashing the entire post.
  #239  
Old 05-16-2018, 02:51 PM
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Considering how "your side" has Congress and the President, you'd think if they really supported this, the laws would have been passed already. But I haven't seen any. Have you?
As I pointed out it already is law, it's just the fines are very small. And yes I've brought up with both Dems, and Repub.
  #240  
Old 05-16-2018, 02:58 PM
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Could you be more specific about the things that are "going good" that can be directly attributed to actions/policies of the Trump administration?
Coal mining is up, job number are up. More people are now working then when he took over. So it's looking good to the average Joe. NATFA is up for renegotiation

Now I'm not silly enough to give Trump all the credit, nor did I give Obama all the blame, but Trump is and Obama was the face of America and they get the credit and blame even when it not their fault.
  #241  
Old 05-16-2018, 03:00 PM
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Considering how "your side" has Congress and the President, you'd think if they really supported this, the laws would have been passed already. But I haven't seen any. Have you?
BTW the law is

8 U.S. Code § 1324a - Unlawful employment of aliens
  #242  
Old 05-16-2018, 03:00 PM
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Coal mining is up, job number are up. More people are now working then when he took over. So it's looking good to the average Joe. NATFA is up for renegotiation

Now I'm not silly enough to give Trump all the credit, nor did I give Obama all the blame, but Trump is and Obama was the face of America and they get the credit and blame even when it not their fault.
Shit you must have been ecstatic at the end of Obama's two terms then. When you compare the economy, jobs, prestige, military deaths, etc., they were ALL better than at the start of his 2 terms. You should have been crying because you couldn't vote for Obama a third time.
  #243  
Old 05-16-2018, 03:01 PM
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Knowing I'm probably going to get flamed, I'll answer

North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) really hurt the middle of the country. Yes any realignment of trade will hurt someone, but it was felt most by those states with heavy emphasis on manufacturing industries like Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Indiana, and California. They all had major job losses. It's doesn't take an accountant to figure out that paying $15 or less is better than $25 or more, even when you factor in the cost of moving the factor. That along with the promised about increased jobs and exports didn't really appear to those who lost their jobs. And yes I know companies are still leaving even under Trump. (BTW in my posts I don't say President anyone, since I didn't use it for any past presidents I won't use it for Trump as when I refer to The President I mean the office not the person)

The left's stand on gun control. In the middle of the country that's a big deal. And I along with many other see it as the elite left trying to make laws without understanding in many cases what a gun can and can't do. I won't go into all the misinformed "facts" that the left has spouted, but it's safe to say many times they have NO idea what they are talking about. That whole "assault" weapon is a prime example. the AR-15 works just like most semi-automatic and it's basically an 22 with a lot more powder, but the left makes it seem like these guns are the most evil thing ever unleashed. When you look at the facts and the small number of death per year caused by long guns (the AR-15 is a long gun) many, including me, see it as the first step in an all and out gun ban.

Immigration, the fact they are talking about letting people who have broken the law, and in many cases many laws, stay in the country and maybe becoming citizens, while at the same time punishing people who try and follow the law seems unfair. Is it sad that someone was brought into the US illegally when they were young and who is now looking at being deported? Sure, but they only have to look to the people who brought them here illegally or who overstayed their VISA. For anyone who not a citizen to DEMAND we let them stay, who DEMAND they should be become citizen, is to many like a crook demanding they shouldn't have to follow the law. Remember we were told in the 1980's that if we gave a ONE time amnesty that our immigration laws would be strictly enforced. And for the record I know people who have lost jobs to illegal aliens.

MAGA, yes many people think that the congress and the president should be putting America first. Deals should be made in the best interest of the US not kissing up to Mexico, EU, or any other country.

In a nut shell many felt the country was going in the wrong direction, then add in the whole Hillary thing, and you have many of the reasons people voted for Trump. That whole e-mail scandal. What many people saw as an elite left getting away with breaking the law, basically one law for "them", you know the good people, and another law for everyone else. Same with her stand on sexual assault, you know "To every survivor of sexual assault...You have the right to be heard. You have the right to be believed. We're with you." Unless you're talking about Bill. You'll note she took that down from her web site during the election, after Broaddrick tweeted about her rape.

So a lot of people voted for Trump, partly because he was an outsider, partly because he wasn't Hillary, partly because he spoke his mind and didn't seem to care about the fallout, and partly because they felt the country was going the wrong direction.
I'm curious what you think when Trump tweets something 180 degrees opposite of something he tweeted three years ago. Or when he talks in circles or gives himself credit for every good thing happening in the country or says something so outlandishly inaccurate that no one, friend or foe, can deny just how wrong it was. Is that not important to you as long as he's pursuing the policy goals you want him to pursue? Because it's something I can't understand or tolerate in the nation's highest position.
  #244  
Old 05-16-2018, 03:03 PM
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Coal mining is up
You sure about that?

Last edited by Skywatcher; 05-16-2018 at 03:06 PM.
  #245  
Old 05-16-2018, 03:04 PM
Chimera Chimera is offline
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OK, well regulated meant in good working order
No, it quite clearly does not mean that their guns were in working order. It means the militia was regulated and organized.

The rest of that devolves into propaganda. "No right as heavily restricted as the second"? Pure bullshit. NRA lies and martyrdom. Don't try to lie to me and tell me that Joe Schmuck in 1800's podunkville could own his own cannon without being arrested or it being seized by the state.

Quote:
Given that what make you or anyone else think the crooks are going to follow any law?
Slippery slope argument. Since criminals aren't going to follow laws, we shouldn't have any, right? I mean, if that's your argument for gun laws, then that equally applies to every single law we have, right? Or only in this case?

Alternately, every single person who has speeded ever is a criminal and speed limit laws should all be struck down because no one obeys them 100%, right?

Quote:
“Then as I will say to the end of time, the way to solve this problem is to treat the people who hire them as criminals and prosecute them.”

“My side” has said that repeatedly.
Citation please? I have not EVER seen this as a proposal from any politician on any side. Have you spoken to your congress-critter about this? What is his or her answer, assuming you even got one?

And no, I'm not talking about easily paid or re-negotiated fines paid for by the company. I'm talking actual JAIL TIME for people who break this law. Run that by your congressman and see how quickly his/her head swivels and they laugh at you.
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Last edited by Chimera; 05-16-2018 at 03:05 PM.
  #246  
Old 05-16-2018, 03:05 PM
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I've never seen a stronger warning from that mod than the one you received for blatant bigotry in your previous posts. Either you're a bigot, or you choose to act like a bigot with your post. One way you're a jerk, the other you're a troll. Either way, you're not going to make it.
But his black and gay friends TOLD him he could say it! So he can't possibly be a bigot!
  #247  
Old 05-16-2018, 03:07 PM
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Coal mining is up, job number are up. More people are now working then when he took over. So it's looking good to the average Joe. NATFA is up for renegotiation

Now I'm not silly enough to give Trump all the credit, nor did I give Obama all the blame, but Trump is and Obama was the face of America and they get the credit and blame even when it not their fault.
I shared this link earlier on the current state of coal mining jobs. What are your thoughts?

I'm glad you have a reasonably balanced view vis-a-vis credit and blame. We don't yet know the full impact that Trump's policies will have on the country. But I don't share your optimistic view of things looking good for the average Joe.
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  #248  
Old 05-16-2018, 03:10 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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Putting America first means getting the best deal we can for America. Do you think China, Mexico, etc are sitting back going, you know it's a bad deal for us, but we'll agree anyway? China is looking out for surprise China, Mexico is looking out for Mexico. Many people have seen the government taking bad deals, NAFTA is an example, we gave away a lot, and hurt a lot of Americans in the process. Mexico got a far better deal then we did. Free trade is a good idea, but as the EU has found out, the economies of the members countries have to be similar. If you have one country with much lower wages you have business moving to said country. And if you have open boarder you have people flooding the richer country.

Now as long as we don't force countries to do business with us ie military force, if they don't like the deal then they don't buy our goods or sell us their goods. If we need or want their good then we'd need to make a deal. And we should get the best deal we can.
There is a difference between having a deal that is good for us, as well as for them, and a deal that is only good for us.

Nafta was the former. It was good for the United States. That it was "better" for mexico shouldn't bother us. The reason that it was better for them was because they were starting from a lower point, and so small improvements in their trade made big improvements in their quality of life.

That a deal has to be bad for the other party in order for it to be good for one is zero-sum thinking. We live in a positive sum world, where generally, the better a deal is for the other party, the better it is for you as well.
  #249  
Old 05-16-2018, 03:15 PM
Chimera Chimera is offline
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And seriously? Fuck Coal. It's the dirtiest source of energy around. We should not be trying to save it.

Every damned lake in my state has Mercury warnings for fish consumption. You know where that came from? Burning coal. Not just here, but everywhere. And that's just the lakes, the same is true of all of the land as well. Not to mention other heavy metals and combustion residues.

Then there's the mountains of coal ash, which are also toxic and harmful, as well as all of the energy burned hauling both coal and ash around.

This nation is full of ghost towns that boomed and then died. No one promised those people they would save their towns and guarantee them jobs to stay there.
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  #250  
Old 05-16-2018, 03:17 PM
postpic200 postpic200 is offline
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Shit you must have been ecstatic at the end of Obama's two terms then. When you compare the economy, jobs, prestige, military deaths, etc., they were ALL better than at the start of his 2 terms. You should have been crying because you couldn't vote for Obama a third time.
Well, first oft I don't think there shouldn't be a term limit on the president. Second I didn't like Obama's policies in general. Just like there are policies of Trump's I don't like there were policies of Obama's that I liked. I'm not 100% ra ra Trump nor did I 100% hate Obama. The reason I don't give the president 100% the blame or credit is the president's power is limited. For example the president can't spend one dime, that's congress's job, but the president gets the blame for the deficit. To give credit or blame for the budget to the president is dumb as there is nothing the president can do.
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