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  #5701  
Old 08-17-2015, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
I talk about civilian justifiable homicides and you bring up police shootings.

So you think all civilian shootings ruled "justified" are "beneficial"? How about Cheney shooting his buddy? No charges were filed, so was that beneficial? How about people who have shot relatives or neighbors ruled as mistaken self-defense. Beneficial? The 6-year old who shot his 4-year old brother and wasn't charged with any crime? Beneficial?

Don't say "Obviously my 'beneficial' claim doesn't apply to shootings that were NOT beneficial." In this forum you are the sentences you construct. If you say something extremely stupid, as you did, you retract it, not double-down.

ETA: I've used extreme examples so that even a dolt like you might get the point. A similar principle often applies even when the dead person was violent or criminal. Is it beneficial to kill a distraught person in preference to taking a 1% risk of a black-eye?

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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
Retract what inane conclusion?
[Make a mental note to self: Add Damuri Ajashi to the list of blithering SDMB dolts.]

Last edited by septimus; 08-17-2015 at 07:22 PM.
  #5702  
Old 08-17-2015, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
I'm tired of looking up all the cites...
This by the way is a fucking joke. You haven't provided ANY cites. Wikipedia is the limits of your capabilities. I'm surprised you were even able to pull off a wiki link.
  #5703  
Old 08-17-2015, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
And some guns are banned too. Would you like a list? That list of banned cars seem mostly like imports, would you like to discuss how hard it is to buy certain imported guns?

Guns are subject to more regulation than many people realize.
Then why isn't there an outcry from freedom lovers about banned cars like there is with guns? That's the question!

When texting and driving was banned, we didn't hear Defenders Of Freedom screaming that Obama wants to take our cars. There isn't a run on car sales with every new driving restriction in the fear that they'll only have ten cars to play with instead of twenty. Why do you think that is?
  #5704  
Old 08-17-2015, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Esox Lucius View Post
Then why isn't there an outcry ...
Just fuck it, man, he has no leg to stand on. He cannot muster a decent argument inbounds, so he is trying to drag you into this diversion. There is nothing there, stop worrying his bait.
  #5705  
Old 08-19-2015, 12:18 AM
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Man Accidentally Shoots Self While Guarding 'Muslim-Free' Oktaha Gun Store
OKTAHA, Oklahoma -

The Muskogee County sheriff said a member of the group guarding an Oktaha gun shop accidentally shot himself Tuesday.

Sheriff Charles Pearson said the man dropped his gun and a bullet hit him in the arm. The sheriff did not identify the man or offer any other details about what happened.

The group of armed citizens and veterans is standing guard outside the Save Yourself Survival and Tactical Gear store after the owners said they received death threats from all over the world for putting up a sign saying Muslims weren't welcome.

"I saw several of those gentlemen out there yesterday," Pearson said. "The way they were holding their weapons, with the fingers on the triggers, you can tell a couple of these gentlemen have no idea about weapons safety. It's like the Clampetts have come to town," Sheriff Pearson told muskogeenow.com.
  #5706  
Old 08-19-2015, 01:28 AM
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Originally Posted by eschereal View Post
Just fuck it, man, he has no leg to stand on. He cannot muster a decent argument inbounds, so he is trying to drag you into this diversion. There is nothing there, stop worrying his bait.
I'd like to see freedom lovers try to justify bringing up cars, knives, swimming pools, ladders, as if they can all be equated to guns. But yeah, you're right, if Damuri is going to play it like a snickering kid in his mom's basement, there's no point.
  #5707  
Old 08-19-2015, 07:20 AM
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Sheriff Charles Pearson said the man dropped his gun and a bullet hit him in the arm. The sheriff did not identify the man or offer any other details about what happened.
Obviously that guy did not have a modern gun, because as everyone knows, modern handguns won't discharge when dropped.
  #5708  
Old 08-19-2015, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Esox Lucius View Post
I'd like to see freedom lovers try to justify bringing up cars, knives, swimming pools, ladders, as if they can all be equated to guns. But yeah, you're right, if Damuri is going to play it like a snickering kid in his mom's basement, there's no point.
Sadly, I agree. I have to say that I liked your attempt. It was novel and pointed out a hypocrisy that I hadn't really considered before.

I keep trying to teach them about stats, and I have to realize that it is really stupid of me to keep trying. I guess it's because these are actually very simple concepts that I keep hoping one day one of these idiots will go "Oh, I get it!" In the end, recognizing inconsistent positions or having a moment of clarity regarding stats really could never counter the effects of bowel-shaking fear that black bad guys are coming for you.

Last edited by Hentor the Barbarian; 08-19-2015 at 07:43 AM.
  #5709  
Old 08-19-2015, 09:21 AM
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I'm still trying to get inside Damuri Ajashi's mind to see how he thinks.

When the six-year old shot his four-year old brother to death that was "beneficial" to society. I'm not putting words in his mouth -- I gave him much oppotunity to rephrase his conclusion but he stuck with it. I won't insult him by making assumptions; I'll respect that he does say what he means even though it does seem ... peculiar.

Damuri -- If the kid had killed his brother with a knife would that still be beneficial? Or is it only gun killings that have some special value to society?

And if you can, explain just what that special benefit is. Easing over-population with minimal pain? Celebrating the Second Amendment? Practice in gun handling from a very early age?
  #5710  
Old 08-19-2015, 09:40 AM
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Was the four year old black? Then he was only going to grow up to be a thug anyway. White? White trash.

Beneficial, you see?
  #5711  
Old 08-19-2015, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Hentor the Barbarian View Post
Sadly, I agree. I have to say that I liked your attempt. It was novel and pointed out a hypocrisy that I hadn't really considered before.

I keep trying to teach them about stats, and I have to realize that it is really stupid of me to keep trying. I guess it's because these are actually very simple concepts that I keep hoping one day one of these idiots will go "Oh, I get it!" In the end, recognizing inconsistent positions or having a moment of clarity regarding stats really could never counter the effects of bowel-shaking fear that black bad guys are coming for you.
Thanks. I'd add that I think everyone knows that the raw, naked power of a gun is the gun lover's guilty pleasure, and like any guilty pleasure, they don't want to admit to it. They invent all kinds of rationalizations for it the way a dieter rationalizes a bowl of ice cream after the salad. Self-defence, family protection, sport, freedom, patriotism, the Second Amendment, I eat what I kill, guns are the same as knives and cars, blah blah blah, are all rationalizations for the visceral pleasure they get from blowing stuff away.
  #5712  
Old 08-19-2015, 01:05 PM
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Trying to violate the civil rights of Muslims doesn't mean you won't get shot


Quote:
A man guarding a small-town Oklahoma gun range and survivalist shop that declared itself a "Muslim-free" business dropped his weapon and accidentally shot himself.

Authorities say an unidentified man dropped his gun Tuesday and a bullet struck his arm. He was among armed residents in front of the Save Yourself Survival and Tactical Gear store in Oktaha (ohk-TAH'-hah), about 60 miles southeast of Tulsa.
I bet the worst thing for this idiot is that now he knows he's been guarding the place against himself.

Ah, karma....

ETA: Doh! Ninja's by camille!

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 08-19-2015 at 01:08 PM.
  #5713  
Old 08-19-2015, 01:08 PM
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I bet the worst thing for this idiot is that now he knows he's been guarding the place against himself.
Even worse, he failed.
  #5714  
Old 08-19-2015, 01:11 PM
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Even worse, he failed.
haha good point ElvisL1ves!
  #5715  
Old 08-19-2015, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Hentor the Barbarian View Post
This is a lie. The primary reason I insult you is that I spent a lot of time explaining stats to you, like the 95% confidence interval, odds ratios and partialing out the effects of a third variable. I took time to dig up stats sources. I did this because I thought you were arguing in good faith. You quickly showed me that you are not.

What you are is an example of the effects found in this antivaxxer study, which shows that when you give corrective information to people with an entrenched non-fact based opinions, you actually increase their resistance to empirical evidence.

Then you do things like lie about my positions. Why don't you quit being such a cunt?
Wait. Are you now claiming that you didn't support an Assault Weapons Ban?

I was about to note that you seem particularly immune to information. EVERY study on defensive gun use says that there are a lot of them but apparently they are all flawed for some reason that allows you to completely ignore them.

You insult people because you have a weak argument and your position sucks. This why your side of the argument has retreated to the pit. The gun debates in great debates never go the way you hope.
  #5716  
Old 08-19-2015, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Esox Lucius View Post
Thanks. I'd add that I think everyone knows that the raw, naked power of a gun is the gun lover's guilty pleasure, and like any guilty pleasure, they don't want to admit to it. They invent all kinds of rationalizations for it the way a dieter rationalizes a bowl of ice cream after the salad. Self-defence, family protection, sport, freedom, patriotism, the Second Amendment, I eat what I kill, guns are the same as knives and cars, blah blah blah, are all rationalizations for the visceral pleasure they get from blowing stuff away.
I'd contend that there's something more, or different anyway, at work for these guys, because I like that stuff. Well, not so much the "blowing stuff away" part. But guns are cool and their power is impressive. Shooting them is fun, and I have pride in being able to do it accurately.

I've never once thought about owning one though, and I've never remotely considered practicing a quick draw in order to get the drop on a bad guy. I'm just not especially scared of the world enough. I think it's the anxiety that gets these crazy gun fucks beyond appreciation of the power and asthetics of guns.
  #5717  
Old 08-19-2015, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by septimus View Post

So you think all civilian shootings ruled "justified" are "beneficial"?
not all of them, but the vast majority.

Quote:
How about Cheney shooting his buddy? No charges were filed, so was that beneficial?
I'm pretty sure that falls into the category of hunting accident rather than justifiable homicide.

Quote:
How about people who have shot relatives or neighbors ruled as mistaken self-defense. Beneficial?
And what percentage of justifiable homicides do you think this represents? really, how often do you think this happens? Because you seem to think that these events happen frequently enough that it invalidates the estimate. Its all within the margin of error isn't it?

Quote:
The 6-year old who shot his 4-year old brother and wasn't charged with any crime? Beneficial?
once again, not justifiable homicide. That's called an accident. A horrible accident.

Quote:
Don't say "Obviously my 'beneficial' claim doesn't apply to shootings that were NOT beneficial." In this forum you are the sentences you construct. If you say something extremely stupid, as you did, you retract it, not double-down.
OK. Not every justifiable homicide is beneficial, just the overwhelming majority.

Quote:
ETA: I've used extreme examples so that even a dolt like you might get the point. A similar principle often applies even when the dead person was violent or criminal. Is it beneficial to kill a distraught person in preference to taking a 1% risk of a black-eye?
You use extreme examples because they are the only ones that support your argument. For the most part justifiable homicides are how I portray them.

Quote:
[Make a mental note to self: Add Damuri Ajashi to the list of blithering SDMB dolts.]
Says the guy who can't tell the difference between a police shooting and a civilian shooting despite being reminded twice.
  #5718  
Old 08-19-2015, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Hentor the Barbarian View Post
This by the way is a fucking joke. You haven't provided ANY cites. Wikipedia is the limits of your capabilities. I'm surprised you were even able to pull off a wiki link.
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=725137

We've had this discussion a zillion times before.
  #5719  
Old 08-19-2015, 01:54 PM
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Then why isn't there an outcry from freedom lovers about banned cars like there is with guns? That's the question!
Because the right to own guns is a constitutionally protected right. The constitution is in some respects an agreement between the government and its people and one of the things the government agreed to was to preserve the right to keep and bear arms. Some regulations on that right are reasonable others are simply attempts to infringe on the exercise of the right.

Quote:
When texting and driving was banned, we didn't hear Defenders Of Freedom screaming that Obama wants to take our cars. There isn't a run on car sales with every new driving restriction in the fear that they'll only have ten cars to play with instead of twenty. Why do you think that is?
These seems inapposite but to try and address your underlying question, its because no one is advocating banning the private ownership of cars. Plenty of people advocate the banning of the private ownership of guns.

Last edited by Damuri Ajashi; 08-19-2015 at 01:54 PM.
  #5720  
Old 08-19-2015, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=725137

We've had this discussion a zillion times before.
Are you suggesting that linking to an SDMB thread is an improvement over a wiki link? Your research skills are truly impressive!
  #5721  
Old 08-19-2015, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Esox Lucius View Post
Thanks. I'd add that I think everyone knows that the raw, naked power of a gun is the gun lover's guilty pleasure, and like any guilty pleasure, they don't want to admit to it. They invent all kinds of rationalizations for it the way a dieter rationalizes a bowl of ice cream after the salad. Self-defence, family protection, sport, freedom, patriotism, the Second Amendment, I eat what I kill, guns are the same as knives and cars, blah blah blah, are all rationalizations for the visceral pleasure they get from blowing stuff away.
Certainly the gun hobbyist gets pleasure from owning and firing guns but I would guess that the majority, perhaps even the large majority of hand gun owners don't fire their gun more than once or twice a year, if that.

If guns were merely a dangerous hobby that served no other purpose (like a more dangerous version of lawn darts), it wouldn't be important to me but they are much more than that and the gun control side consistently ignores the benefits of private ownership of guns.
  #5722  
Old 08-19-2015, 02:07 PM
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Are you suggesting that linking to an SDMB thread is an improvement over a wiki link? Your research skills are truly impressive!
Oh fer chissake, you are dense.

I think I'll take a break from the pit and see if I can get you to come on over to great debates (at least until you mytseriously disappear when your arguments fall apart under scrutiny).
  #5723  
Old 08-19-2015, 02:27 PM
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Oh fer chissake, you are dense.

I think I'll take a break from the pit and see if I can get you to come on over to great debates (at least until you mytseriously disappear when your arguments fall apart under scrutiny).
Go ahead. It hasn't happened before though, but at least you'll be safe from me calling you a quivering pathetic pussy while I rip your arguments up.
  #5724  
Old 08-19-2015, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
Certainly the gun hobbyist gets pleasure from owning and firing guns but I would guess that the majority, perhaps even the large majority of hand gun owners don't fire their gun more than once or twice a year, if that.
I wonder what automobile death and accident statistics would be like if people only drove once or twice a year?
  #5725  
Old 08-19-2015, 02:54 PM
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I think we've got a record here!!!!
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A 2-year-old boy apparently shot and killed his father in what police in Alabama on Wednesday called a horrible accident.

Hoover police Capt. Gregg Rector said investigators had all but ruled out suicide and other possible scenarios in the shooting, but an autopsy was still being conducted on the 31-year-old victim.

The man, whose name was not released immediately, was found shot once in the head in an apartment on Tuesday afternoon, and no one else was inside other than the toddler.
http://www.chron.com/news/crime/arti...by-6453226.php
  #5726  
Old 08-19-2015, 03:00 PM
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I wonder what automobile death and accident statistics would be like if people only drove once or twice a year?
Damn, I would be thrilled if they understood what you mean here.
  #5727  
Old 08-20-2015, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
Oh fer chissake, you are dense.

I think I'll take a break from the pit and see if I can get you to come on over to great debates (at least until you mytseriously disappear when your arguments fall apart under scrutiny).
You are the one that is not getting it. Look at the title of this thread. It was never intended to be a debate in the first place, so quitcherbitchin.
  #5728  
Old 08-20-2015, 05:42 AM
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A man at a "Muslim-free" gun store and shooting range in Oklahoma accidentally shot himself on Tuesday
Quote:
The man at Save Yourself Survival and Tactical Gear in Oktaha, Oklahoma, dropped a loaded gun, which then fired a bullet into his wrist, the local sheriff's department told News On 6.

He has not been publicly identified, but is expected to recover.

Armed volunteers have been "guarding" the shop since it announced earlier this month that it had banned Muslims.

"I saw several of those gentlemen out there yesterday," Sheriff Charles Pearson told Muskogee Now. "The way they were holding their weapons, with the fingers on the triggers, you can tell a couple of these gentlemen have no idea about weapons safety. It's like the Clampetts have come to town."
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Last edited by Fear Itself; 08-20-2015 at 05:44 AM.
  #5729  
Old 08-20-2015, 08:31 AM
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I've never once thought about owning one though, and I've never remotely considered practicing a quick draw in order to get the drop on a bad guy. I'm just not especially scared of the world enough. I think it's the anxiety that gets these crazy gun fucks beyond appreciation of the power and asthetics of guns.
I hesitate to return to the wallow of ignorance and self-congratulation that this thread has become, but this sentence seems to imply that anyone who owns a gun is a "crazy gun fuck" who's afraid of the world and spends their evenings practicing quick draws.

Is this an accurate précis of your position?

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Originally Posted by Hentor the Barbarian View Post
Damn, I would be thrilled if they understood what you mean here.
Who are "they"? Gun owners, or particular posters in this thread?

Thanks for your answers.

Last edited by August West; 08-20-2015 at 08:32 AM.
  #5730  
Old 08-20-2015, 09:10 AM
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I hesitate to return to the wallow of ignorance and self-congratulation that this thread has become, but this sentence seems to imply that anyone who owns a gun is a "crazy gun fuck" who's afraid of the world and spends their evenings practicing quick draws.

Is this an accurate précis of your position?


Who are "they"? Gun owners, or particular posters in this thread?

Thanks for your answers.
In both cases, I'm referring specifically to posters on the SDMB, and to the degree that these posters represent gun fucks more generally, then to those gun fucks as well. I have developed an impression of gun fucks as generally doughy white guys (see photos of gun shows) who are scared of the world (see NRA literature), especially of black men (see again NRA literature). Posters on this board have in fact described practicing their quick draw.
  #5731  
Old 08-20-2015, 09:41 AM
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In both cases, I'm referring specifically to posters on the SDMB, and to the degree that these posters represent gun fucks more generally, then to those gun fucks as well. I have developed an impression of gun fucks as generally doughy white guys (see photos of gun shows) who are scared of the world (see NRA literature), especially of black men (see again NRA literature). Posters on this board have in fact described practicing their quick draw.
Should you ever find yourself in Wisconsin in the autumn, I invite you to come shooting with me and my friends. We could hunt pheasants at the club or shoot sporting clays, there are three of us who own a membership.

I think you'll find we are far from "doughy", and we all have a fine understanding of statistics (I'm a Director of Quality, another is a chemical engineer, the third is a high school math teacher). As far as I know, none of us own handguns, so practicing quick draws is not available to us as a pastime. I will concede that we are all white.

I think you have a false impression of most gun owners. Or maybe I'm just traveling in the wrong circles.
  #5732  
Old 08-20-2015, 05:57 PM
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Should you ever find yourself in Wisconsin in the autumn, I invite you to come shooting with me and my friends. We could hunt pheasants at the club or shoot sporting clays, there are three of us who own a membership.
That's a very kind invitation. I enjoyed skeet shooting, but I haven't done that for about 20 years.
Quote:
I think you'll find we are far from "doughy", and we all have a fine understanding of statistics (I'm a Director of Quality, another is a chemical engineer, the third is a high school math teacher). As far as I know, none of us own handguns, so practicing quick draws is not available to us as a pastime. I will concede that we are all white.

I think you have a false impression of most gun owners. Or maybe I'm just traveling in the wrong circles.
I'm not sure you read my previous post well. If you aren't making a claim that cars and guns are equally dangerous (or that cars are more dangerous), or if you are not handwaving away any empirical studies that disagree with you, I'm probably not talking about you.

If you're not practicing quick draw or fantasizing about getting the drop on bad guys, I'm probably not talking about you.

If you're not a doughy little pussy looking to buy your next AR-15 before Obama takes away your guns, or protesting that a gun registry is only a prelude to confiscation, or proposing that CCW people are safer than non-CCW people, I'm probably not talking about you.
  #5733  
Old 08-21-2015, 07:32 AM
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Saw this on Reddit and had to post it here:

Man Guarding 'Muslim-Free' Gun Range Accidentally Shoots Self

Last edited by BigT; 08-21-2015 at 07:33 AM.
  #5734  
Old 08-21-2015, 07:43 AM
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Saw this on Reddit and had to post it here:

Man Guarding 'Muslim-Free' Gun Range Accidentally Shoots Self
Too slow; post 5728.
  #5735  
Old 08-21-2015, 08:18 AM
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Too slow; post 5728.
Too slow; post 5712.
  #5736  
Old 08-21-2015, 08:20 AM
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That's a very kind invitation. I enjoyed skeet shooting, but I haven't done that for about 20 years.I'm not sure you read my previous post well. If you aren't making a claim that cars and guns are equally dangerous (or that cars are more dangerous), or if you are not handwaving away any empirical studies that disagree with you, I'm probably not talking about you.

If you're not practicing quick draw or fantasizing about getting the drop on bad guys, I'm probably not talking about you.

If you're not a doughy little pussy looking to buy your next AR-15 before Obama takes away your guns, or protesting that a gun registry is only a prelude to confiscation, or proposing that CCW people are safer than non-CCW people, I'm probably not talking about you.
Fair enough. Your statement that you've "never thought of owning one" seemed to imply that those of us who do own a gun have some sort of moral failing and are therefore "gun fucks". You've clarified that's not the case.

The point I was trying to make is that I think the type of gun owner you are talking about exists mostly on the internet, or draws publicity by doing something moronic like deciding to take a bunch of guns to a recruiting center the day after someone shoots up a recruiting center. The vast majority of us aren't doing that.
  #5737  
Old 08-21-2015, 08:23 AM
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Too slow; post 5712.
Heh. An oldie but a goodie.
  #5738  
Old 08-21-2015, 08:32 AM
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Fair enough. Your statement that you've "never thought of owning one" seemed to imply that those of us who do own a gun have some sort of moral failing and are therefore "gun fucks". You've clarified that's not the case.
No, that is not the case. You might have been misled by some of the lying that goes on here.
Quote:
The point I was trying to make is that I think the type of gun owner you are talking about exists mostly on the internet, or draws publicity by doing something moronic like deciding to take a bunch of guns to a recruiting center the day after someone shoots up a recruiting center. The vast majority of us aren't doing that.
Perhaps. For example, I went to college in rural Missouri. Two of my friends were conscientious hunters. On the other hand, another bragged about spotlighting deer and shooting them from his car.

Perhaps it is just the internet, but my experience on these boards is that even those who pretend to being conscientious and thoughtful on the issue are really just fronting. When it comes down to practicalities, they actually espouse the same positions and engage in the most specious and ignorant of arumentation. It is extremely frustrating to spend time explaining fundamental stats and publication processes, as well as citing data sources, only to have those pretending to reason balk upon reaching the precipice of insight. It really is reminiscent of the recent evidence on thenl effects of providing health information to antivaxxers.

So, if you're not that person, great. It's nice to be reminded that they exist. It is hard to see you there behind the crazies.
  #5739  
Old 08-21-2015, 09:03 AM
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It is extremely frustrating to spend time explaining fundamental stats and publication processes, as well as citing data sources, only to have those pretending to reason balk upon reaching the precipice of insight.
There are lies, damn lies, and statistics. Unless you claim that all the studies showing that guns have a negative net impact are dispassionately researched truth, and all the studies that claim guns have either no or a positive impact are lying propaganda, then I can't take your certainty as proven. I do not believe that the gun issue is as cut and dried as smoking or global warming.
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Old 08-21-2015, 09:41 AM
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There are lies, damn lies, and statistics. Unless you claim that all the studies showing that guns have a negative net impact are dispassionately researched truth, and all the studies that claim guns have either no or a positive impact are lying propaganda, then I can't take your certainty as proven. I do not believe that the gun issue is as cut and dried as smoking or global warming.
Right. So what happens next is that we dig into your concerns about the literature, and we end up talking about what this odds ratio is or that confidence interval is or whether this association was lagged relative to the outcome. Which is all fine and good, but after each thing is explained and you guys reach the end of the "how to debunk gun studies" bullet points you read on gun blogs, rather than saying "Well, I guess I see how that might be a valid point," you end up just waving your hands and claiming that all the gun research is biased anyway.
  #5741  
Old 08-21-2015, 10:16 AM
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Here's a question that I'd be interested in knowing the answer to: if proposed laws requiring gun owners to have liability insurance came to pass, what risk would insurance companies assign to owning a gun, and therefore what would they charge?

Before you answer let me point out that insurance companies are in the aggregate very good at estimating things like this; they'd go broke if they weren't. And since they compete for business, they will likely charge close to the lowest rate that will still yield a profit- if they didn't someone else would. The result, I am certain, is that they would NOT simply divide the number of gun deaths and injuries by the total number of guns owners, and charge a blanket rate. For example, they would never pay out for suicides, insurance companies never do. They would of course flatly refuse to insure anyone who cannot legally own a gun, so all such shootings wouldn't be insured. They would presumably charge a base rate for gun owners who have never had any incidents, with perhaps a discount for anyone who has taken a certified safety course; a higher rate for people with one incident in their history; and then a steeply escalating rate for anyone who can't seem to stay out of trouble.

My guess is, the smart money would say that a middle-class gun owner with no criminal record would have a trivially small probability of committing a shooting that would require compensation.
  #5742  
Old 08-21-2015, 10:17 AM
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Right. So what happens next is that we dig into your concerns about the literature, and we end up talking about what this odds ratio is or that confidence interval is or whether this association was lagged relative to the outcome. Which is all fine and good, but after each thing is explained and you guys reach the end of the "how to debunk gun studies" bullet points you read on gun blogs, rather than saying "Well, I guess I see how that might be a valid point," you end up just waving your hands and claiming that all the gun research is biased anyway.
Let me rephrase the question: what makes you so certain that the studies you cite are credible, and the ones showing a different outcome are not?
  #5743  
Old 08-21-2015, 10:21 AM
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My guess is, the smart money would say that a middle-class gun owner with no criminal record would have a trivially small probability of committing a shooting that would require compensation.
That depends; are they liable for accidental discharges that result in property damage, injury or death?
  #5744  
Old 08-21-2015, 10:27 AM
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Let me rephrase the question: what makes you so certain that the studies you cite are credible, and the ones showing a different outcome are not?
Where have I said that?
  #5745  
Old 08-21-2015, 10:41 AM
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Where have I said that?
Hasn't that been the message of your last several posts? What I've taken away is your saying "Look! Look, here's the proof of the truth! SEE!" and then saying that anyone who doesn't is in denial.
  #5746  
Old 08-21-2015, 11:09 AM
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Hasn't that been the message of your last several posts? What I've taken away is your saying "Look! Look, here's the proof of the truth! SEE!" and then saying that anyone who doesn't is in denial.
Fuck. Read what I wrote. If you want to handwave, just do that. If you pretend that your rejection hinges on methodoligical or statistical issues, and your objections there are rebutted, switching gears to just handwave the results away then is just shitty.

You seem to suggest that the empirical literature is a matter of taste, like prefering Star Trek to Star Wars. It is not.

Last edited by Hentor the Barbarian; 08-21-2015 at 11:10 AM.
  #5747  
Old 08-21-2015, 11:57 AM
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Hentor, I'm trying to honestly debate you, but I'm genuinely confused as to just what you're claiming.
  #5748  
Old 08-21-2015, 12:13 PM
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Hentor, I'm trying to honestly debate you, but I'm genuinely confused as to just what you're claiming.
Okay, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt if you can go back and reconsider post 5745. Can you clarify what you were trying to say there in a less potentially dickish manner?
  #5749  
Old 08-21-2015, 03:22 PM
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Let me rephrase the question: what makes you so certain that the studies you cite are credible, and the ones showing a different outcome are not?
What are these studies you're referring to that show a different outcome? My understanding is that there are metastudies that show that having a gun in the house is a net negative, and then there are other studies that don't actually address the question (like defensive gun use studies).
  #5750  
Old 08-23-2015, 11:36 PM
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No one is a criminal until they are.

Two dudes stopped by police before they could shoot up the world pokemon championship (whatever that means) in Boston.
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