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  #51  
Old 12-30-2019, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by MrDibble View Post
"Most people" aren't anarchists, so what they think is irrelevant.

What makes you think I'm angry? You think you're the first person around here to mistake a dictionary for a manifesto? What I am is bored by the lack of originality in the discourse around anarchism.

What does make me vehement is someone telling me that I'm wrong about something I'm actually involved in and they're not. Because they read a fucking dictionary.

A dictionary, we should all note, that they still haven't quoted from as to it saying anything about markets and the regulation thereof.

Yeah, all those millennia of pre-market Homo sapiens. They might have looked human, but clearly they lacked some intrinsic element of humanity...
Yes, I can see you're not angry...

Markets don't require a money economy. People have been bartering goods as far back as recorded history goes. There was also plenty of trade early in prehistory, as items found a long distance from their origins among different cultures show.

Another example is pre-European Native-American markets:

Quote:
The trading networks encountered by the first Europeans on the Great Plans were built on a number of trading centers acting as hubs in an advanced system of exchange over great distances. The major centers were found at the villages of sedentary peoples with a surplus of agricultural produce that could be exchanged.[1] [2] Treasured commodities such as marine shells, obsidian, and turquoise were transported thousands of miles from their origin.[3] [4]

The primary trading centers were found on the middle Missouri River, at the villages of the Mandans, Hidatsa, and Arikara. The central place of these villages in the exchange system was based on an advantageous geographical position combined with a surplus from agriculture and craft. Historical sources show that the Middle Missouri villages were visited by Cree, Assiniboine, Crow, Cheyenne, Arapaho, Kiowa, Plains Apache and Comanche. The Arikara villages were also frequented by the Sioux. South of the Arikara the Sioux gathered at the Dakota Rendezvous, an annual fair exchanging goods acquired from other Indian nations. The villages of the Pawnee, Kansa, and Osage were secondary centers on the central plains. On the southern plains, the Caddo villages formed important secondary centers whose westward exchange connected the Plains trading networks with the Southwestern trading networks.
In other words, there was a market economy based on barter. Money facilitates markets, but it doesn't define markets.

But perhaps anarchists have their own secret definition of what 'market' means? And their own understanding of 'human nature'?

  #52  
Old 12-30-2019, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Northern Piper View Post
Help me out here. In an anarchist system, how can you have “tightly regulated” markets? What mechanism would be used to regulate the market?
Self-regulation, apparently.

Examples would be the artificial markets of Proudhon's Mutualism (that's really old-school anarchism) and Fotopoulos' Inclusive Democracy (hipster post-modern anarchism). Fotopoulos himself seems to favour market abolition, but the upshot of the artificial market proposed isn't abolition, just a different kind of regulation. IMO, obviously.
Quote:
And how is tight regulation a principle of anarchism?
It isn't, which is why different anarchist tendencies have radically different views on it.

And why a stance on markets isn't part of dictionary definitions of anarchism.
  #53  
Old 12-30-2019, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by GreenWyvern View Post
There was also plenty of trade early in prehistory, as items found a long distance from their origins among different cultures show.
A gift economy is not a market economy. We have no way of saying for certain that very early prehistoric "trade" was one or the other, but we can certainly say that human societies have existed based on the former. Without losing their "human nature", apparently.

And still no dictionary quote, I'll note again.

Last edited by MrDibble; 12-30-2019 at 12:47 PM.
  #54  
Old 12-30-2019, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by MrDibble View Post
And still no dictionary quote, I'll note again.
What kind of dictionary quote are you looking for, again?

One that says 'anarchism' has something to with 'anarchy'? One that says 'anarchy' doesn't mean 'market (or no-market) regulation'? Or what?


Google gives me:

noun: anarchist

A person who believes in or tries to bring about anarchy.


noun: anarchy

1. A state of disorder due to absence or non-recognition of authority or other controlling systems.
Similar:
lawlessness
absence of government
nihilism
mobocracy
revolution
insurrection
riot
rebellion
mutiny
disorder
disorganization
misrule
chaos
tumult
turmoil
mayhem
pandemonium

Opposite:
government
order
2. Absence of government and absolute freedom of the individual, regarded as a political ideal.
  #55  
Old 12-30-2019, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by MrDibble View Post
A gift economy is not a market economy. We have no way of saying for certain that very early prehistoric "trade" was one or the other, but we can certainly say that human societies have existed based on the former.
Do you have any examples of a gift economy operating over long distances or across different tribes or cultures?

Or only on a strictly local and small-scale basis, inside a homogeneous culture where everyone knows everyone else?
  #56  
Old 12-30-2019, 01:43 PM
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I should have added:

noun: anarchism

Belief in the abolition of all government and the organization of society on a voluntary, cooperative basis without recourse to force or compulsion. [That sounds very practical and in accord with human nature! - GW]
- a political force or movement based on belief in anarchism.

Last edited by GreenWyvern; 12-30-2019 at 01:48 PM.
  #57  
Old 12-30-2019, 01:53 PM
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I remember getting into a debate here in GD, some months ago with at least one die hard free market believer. Search isnt working for that, however.
  #58  
Old 12-30-2019, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Oredigger77 View Post
Well, most of my work has been[...]
Cool cool, thanks. I PMd you some specific questions that may run too close to the "support may cause!" rule for open discussion, if you have a moment to indulge me.
  #59  
Old 12-30-2019, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by doreen View Post
You could make sure one person has a certificate and is responsible for ensuring that the establishment meets hygienic standards. But that's not all that's involved for hairdressers - there's also dying,perming straightening, and in some places the same license required to perform those tasks also allows the person to perform waxing. And for those tasks, it's not just hygiene that's important.There's also the need to recognize skin conditions that preclude waxing, or knowing the appropriate dye to use on eyelashes and so on.
In addition, some of the chemicals used on hair can be hazardous if mis-used. The hairdressers themselves may be most at risk, due to occupational exposure, but the people they're working on can also wind up injured -- not to mention the environment in cases of improper disposal.
  #60  
Old 12-30-2019, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by GreenWyvern View Post
What kind of dictionary quote are you looking for, again?
[...]
One that says 'anarchy' doesn't mean 'market (or no-market) regulation'?
One that says anarchism necessitates unregulated markets. Like you said right at the start.
  #61  
Old 12-30-2019, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by MrDibble View Post
One that says anarchism necessitates unregulated markets. Like you said right at the start.
What I originally said was "If by 'free market' you mean a market that is totally unregulated... NOBODY wants that except anarchists."

To repeat the definitions I posted above:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenWyvern View Post

noun: anarchist

A person who believes in or tries to bring about anarchy.


noun: anarchy

1. A state of disorder due to absence or non-recognition of authority or other controlling systems.

2. Absence of government and absolute freedom of the individual, regarded as a political ideal.

"A state of disorder due to absence or non-recognition of authority or other controlling systems" implies unregulated markets.

"Absence of government and absolute freedom of the individual" necessitates unregulated markets.

Last edited by GreenWyvern; 12-30-2019 at 11:08 PM.
  #62  
Old 12-30-2019, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Gatopescado View Post
I thought I understood basic microeconomics till I started talking to a friend who sells on Amazon. I got really good grades and everything!
Remember the part where the intersection where supply meets demand equals price? That sounds logical, but in order to maximize profit, if demand is high you reduce supply so that price (demand) goes up.
  #63  
Old 12-31-2019, 05:28 AM
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Originally Posted by GreenWyvern View Post
"A state of disorder due to absence or non-recognition of authority or other controlling systems" implies unregulated markets.

"Absence of government and absolute freedom of the individual" necessitates unregulated markets.
"Implies" - to a completely uneducated-about-anarchism outsider.
"necessitates" - to someone who doesn't think self-regulation can exist.

I've already cited actual anarchist thinkers and their positions on markets. I suggest you look them up before you go spouting off about what the wordy-book told you things imply or necessitate.

Look, even just skim-read the damn Wikipedia article on anarchISM for what anarchists actually believe. It's not the best source, but it's a damn sight better than the dictionary. Anarchists don't want anarchy (in the sense of disorder and chaos, which is of course usually the first dictionary definition that comes to mind but rarely the only one and certainly not the relevant one for a political discussion.), we want anarchism (a stateless society). Not the same thing.

Then, think about what you just tried to do - you tried to tell someone who actually follows an ideology that they don't know what they're talking about, when it comes to their own ideology. Because a book of word definitions said different.

And they wonder why Great Debates is dying...
  #64  
Old 12-31-2019, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by MrDibble View Post
Then, think about what you just tried to do - you tried to tell someone who actually follows an ideology that they don't know what they're talking about, when it comes to their own ideology. Because a book of word definitions said different.
Actually, I never said anything remotely like that.

I did read that Wikipedia article, the first time you posted. My response was that most people would think that anarchism has something to do with anarchy (which according to the article it doesn't), so if you don't want people to get the wrong impression you should use a different term.

But if you don't "give a flying fuck" whether people get the wrong impression of what anarchism is, then fine.

Last edited by GreenWyvern; 12-31-2019 at 06:09 AM.
  #65  
Old 12-31-2019, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by MrDibble View Post
A gift economy is not a market economy. We have no way of saying for certain that very early prehistoric "trade" was one or the other, but we can certainly say that human societies have existed based on the former. Without losing their "human nature", apparently.
I was going to make the same comment, though I won't hunt for a cite.

And gift exchanges, unnecessary in a small group where values and debts are well-known, might have been common with long-distance trade! The gift items may have been plentiful for the gifter, but scarce for the giftee. (Over time, default exchange rates might develop, but gifting avoids worry about short-term cheating.) The gifts might have involved bride exchanges or tributes or ransoms rather than simple trades.
  #66  
Old 01-08-2020, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by MrDibble View Post
Which I stand by - anarchists don't want unregulated markets. we either want no markets, or else very tightly regulated ones, depending on flavour of anarchism.
To wrap this up, do you "believe in the free market"?

I'm guessing that's a negative, but the side-track about anarchism here is confusing me a little bit. I don't see room for a free market in the various economic theories I associate with anarchism. To use your words, a free market isn't no market, and it probably isn't a tightly regulated market either.

I suppose you could take a Libertarian- or individualist-anarchist position that still allows for cooperative business entities and somewhat capitalist competition. I knew someone in college who tried to take a view like that.

~Max
  #67  
Old 01-09-2020, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Hari Seldon View Post
Let me just point out that one example of our unfree markets are non-compete agreements that many companies insist that all employees sign. I am not talking about the people who have real trade secrets (although what Pepsi would do if they had the Coke formula passes my imagination) but employees who just want better pay on the basis of their experience. A typical example of capitalist overreach.

I have never heard of an injury caused by a rogue hairdresser. On the other hand I read of a case a few years ago (sorry I cannot cite it) of someone who knew how to do cornrows that no licensed hairdresser could do. Her customers were quite happy but she was put out of business by the licensing bureau. She could not afford the cost of the training.
do you remember a couple years ago, Jimmy Johns (??) had "non-compete" restriction for ex-employees before lawsuits ended practice? What exact secrets did they have?
  #68  
Old 01-09-2020, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Oredigger77 View Post
Well, most of my work has been writing articles for regional publications and talking to the industry lobbying groups (ADI, ACSA, and DISCUS) about getting it added to their platforms. The original version of the Craft Spirits Modernization Act had a provision to legalize home distilling but that was removed when it was rolled into the Trump tax cuts. I spent hours talking to my local congressmen and senators about the CSMA but it never even got brought up for a vote.

In general, I'd like to bring spirits (and to some extent wine) into regulatory parity with beer. Currently you can brew beer at home, make wine and (in some states) grow weed but you can go to jail for distilling even a drop of potable alcohol and can lose the property you're distilling on. Further once we are in the realm of taxed spirits beer is taxed (federally) at $0.11/gallon while 40% abv whiskey is taxed at $2.16/gallon and most wine is at $0.57/gallon. These excise taxes should be equalized with my preferred method being to equalize at the craft beer level and all alcohol should be taxed at $0.92 per proof gallon.

Both of these things will help the craft spirits industry because allowing home distilling will enable people to perfect their recipies and processes before spending the money to go pro. This will increase the quality of craft spirits. Right now we generally, have people either with more balls then brains who are either willing to break the law and learn how to distill before investing but then we expect them to become perfect rule following robots after years of being law breakers or people with more money than brains who are willing to invest hundreds or thousands or millions if dollars into something they know nothing about.
are you talking about brewing/distilling for personal use or selling? I can't see gov't taxing home-brew (how would they know about it? This isn't 1929)
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