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  #51  
Old 01-06-2020, 02:32 AM
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I want to understand how the rules work for PI, because the saints were complaining about OPI on the winning TD. You can see the defender is all over the receiver, in what looks to me like DPI (not at all looking for the ball), and the receiver gives him a tiny bit of a shove to get free.

What, exactly, are receivers allowed to do to get a man off of them? What should they be allowed to do?
  #52  
Old 01-06-2020, 08:11 AM
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So fuck Clowney for a cheap shot on Wentz to take him out of the game. I hope the league gives him a huge fine. And if a Packer lineman lights him up next week and splits his core injury wide open from stem to stern, I won't shed a tear.
  #53  
Old 01-06-2020, 08:17 AM
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I want to understand how the rules work for PI,
You and everybody else in the world.

Here's the text: from here

"It is pass interference by either team when any act by a player more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage significantly hinders an eligible player’s opportunity to catch the ball."

More specifically, there is this quote from the "prohibited acts" section which says: "Initiating contact with an opponent by shoving or pushing off, thus creating separation.
Note: If there is any question whether player contact is incidental, the ruling should be no interference."

It has been, is, and will always be, a judgment call. There is, of course, a sliding scale of obviousness, like the Saints one that led to PI being reviewable. But last nights' call was an easy no-call, especially with the note included in the rules.

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because the saints were complaining about OPI
I feel bad the Saints got screwed by one call last year, but whining about this call is silly.
  #54  
Old 01-06-2020, 08:33 AM
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So fuck Clowney for a cheap shot on Wentz to take him out of the game.
"He was a runner and he did not give himself up. We saw incidental helmet contact, and in our judgement, we didn’t rule that to be a foul." From the ref. If the victim was any other player other than a QB or if it didn't result in an injury, a fast play like that wouldn't even be a debate. But since it's Carson Wentz and he got knocked out, it becomes a whole thing.

Personally, I think Clowney led too much with his head, but I'm having trouble with the whole "he intended to hurt Wentz" that would lead to a tar and feathering. It's a tough call though. That's why QB's should slide.

Last edited by Hamlet; 01-06-2020 at 08:34 AM.
  #55  
Old 01-06-2020, 08:47 AM
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"He was a runner and he did not give himself up. We saw incidental helmet contact, and in our judgement, we didn’t rule that to be a foul." From the ref. If the victim was any other player other than a QB or if it didn't result in an injury, a fast play like that wouldn't even be a debate. But since it's Carson Wentz and he got knocked out, it becomes a whole thing.

Personally, I think Clowney led too much with his head, but I'm having trouble with the whole "he intended to hurt Wentz" that would lead to a tar and feathering. It's a tough call though. That's why QB's should slide.
I get that, and I understand why they didn't throw the flag at the time. But the league has fined players in the past for helmet to helmet even if there wasn't a penalty on the play.

And I don't get what you're saying about "if it wasn't a QB, or it didn't result in an injury". It did, and it did. So yeah, he should be fined. And I now have a reason to root for the Packers next week. Besides, I'm an Eagles fan and therefore according to Clowney I'm one of the worst fans in the world.
  #56  
Old 01-06-2020, 09:03 AM
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I get that, and I understand why they didn't throw the flag at the time. But the league has fined players in the past for helmet to helmet even if there wasn't a penalty on the play.
He should be fined, (say about $80,000 or so). It's on him to make sure he doesn't initiate helmet to helmet contact and he failed to do so.

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Originally Posted by muldoonthef
And I don't get what you're saying about "if it wasn't a QB, or it didn't result in an injury". It did, and it did.
My point was that the actions Clowney took are vilified because it was your QB and he got knocked out of the game. Had Clowney done the exact same thing to Boston Scott or to Wentz, but Wentz popped up, this wouldn't even be on anyone's radar as a horrible cheap shot.

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So yeah, he should be fined. And I now have a reason to root for the Packers next week.
There's always reasons to root for the Packers.

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Originally Posted by muldoonthief
Besides, I'm an Eagles fan and therefore according to Clowney I'm one of the worst fans in the world.
That viewpoint isn't just a Clowney thing. Philly fans have a ... distinct ... reputation, and are consistently one of the most hated fanbases in the league.
  #57  
Old 01-06-2020, 09:51 AM
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I was watching the end of the Vikings-Saints game and it went into OT. I heard the announcers talking about how "the game could go on forever until someone scores" and then the Vikings scored and it was over. I thought in the playoffs, the other team gets a chance to score as well, so I was a little surprised to see the game end.
  #58  
Old 01-06-2020, 10:01 AM
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I was watching the end of the Vikings-Saints game and it went into OT. I heard the announcers talking about how "the game could go on forever until someone scores" and then the Vikings scored and it was over. I thought in the playoffs, the other team gets a chance to score as well, so I was a little surprised to see the game end.
That only applies if the first team gets a field goal. If the first team scores a field goal, they have to kick off to the second team. From there, if the second team scores a touchdown, they win. If the second team gives up the ball without scoring, they lose. If the second team scores a field goal, they kick off to the first team again, and the next team to score in any fashion wins.

But if the first team gets a touchdown, they win instantly. There's been some pushback on that, however, so the rules may get modified again in the future.
  #59  
Old 01-06-2020, 10:18 AM
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But if the first team gets a touchdown, they win instantly. There's been some pushback on that, however, so the rules may get modified again in the future.
I've heard criticism of the current overtime format, that it's unfair to give a scoring opportunity to only one team, and puts too much importance on the coin toss.

My question is, what would be better? Would the teams play a full quarter of overtime, and after that it becomes sudden death? I don't think any solution is perfect.
  #60  
Old 01-06-2020, 10:22 AM
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What would be better might be this: Both teams are given possession at midfield, one opportunity each to score. Very often, this will result in either one team having only a field goal but the other getting a touchdown = game over. Or, one team gets a field goal but the other gets nothing = game over.

If after that first set of opportunities, the two teams are tied, say, 23-23 or 27-27, then we go to sudden-death.
  #61  
Old 01-06-2020, 10:24 AM
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So fuck Clowney for a cheap shot on Wentz to take him out of the game. I hope the league gives him a huge fine. And if a Packer lineman lights him up next week and splits his core injury wide open from stem to stern, I won't shed a tear.
Yeah, I think he got away with one, there. The 'hawks were definitely given the advantage of playing a team that was at least as banged up as - and very possibly even moreso than - they were going into the contest.
  #62  
Old 01-06-2020, 10:26 AM
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I used to have time to do real analysis on the match-ups. I just don't have that time anymore (moved thrice in three years), but I used to be pretty good at ignoring full-season records and judging the last 4-6 weeks of the season and match-ups against quality opponents.

I didn't realize the Vikes front four was as good as they are. Had I known that, I might have been more cautious in my picks. Front four pressure is huge in the playoffs, especially if the defensive scheme is good and LBs can be effective in pass coverage.
Then you would have been given absolutely NO good reason(s) to pick the Grapes to win that one. That was an upset, pure and simple.
  #63  
Old 01-06-2020, 10:28 AM
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One easy change that I've heard suggested is that instead of a coin toss, make it that the whichever team received the kickoff at the beginning of the game will receive the overtime kickoff as well. That allows for more strategy as to whether to play for a tie or a win - if you're down by 7, and get a touchdown in the closing seconds, but your defense is totally gassed and you know the other team will get the ball first, you may just go for 2 instead of 1. Doesn't fix everything, but it makes it a bit more interesting/fair.

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What would be better might be this: Both teams are given possession at midfield, one opportunity each to score. Very often, this will result in either one team having only a field goal but the other getting a touchdown = game over. Or, one team gets a field goal but the other gets nothing = game over.

If after that first set of opportunities, the two teams are tied, say, 23-23 or 27-27, then we go to sudden-death.
The problem with this is that it gives an advantage to the second team. If the first team gets nothing, the second team knows they're only playing for a field goal. If the first team gets a TD, the second team knows they have to get a TD. Completely changes what you do on 4th down.
  #64  
Old 01-06-2020, 10:28 AM
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What would be better might be this: Both teams are given possession at midfield, one opportunity each to score. Very often, this will result in either one team having only a field goal but the other getting a touchdown = game over. Or, one team gets a field goal but the other gets nothing = game over.

If after that first set of opportunities, the two teams are tied, say, 23-23 or 27-27, then we go to sudden-death.
If the first team to get the ball in sudden-death scores, they've had possession twice and the other team only once. I'm not sure that's an improvement.

Plus, there's the same problem as ending a soccer game with penalty kicks; that the method of deciding the game is played with different rules and strategy than the game itself.
  #65  
Old 01-06-2020, 11:38 AM
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So fuck Clowney for a cheap shot on Wentz to take him out of the game. I hope the league gives him a huge fine. And if a Packer lineman lights him up next week and splits his core injury wide open from stem to stern, I won't shed a tear.
Cheap shot, BS. He leaped at him to tackle him before or simultaneously with Wentz starting to give himself up. That was absolutely not a cheap shot, and Clowney does not have the background that suggests he does that kind of thing unlike someone like Suh or Burfict. I understand Philly fans screaming he should be kicked out of the league but they are Philly fans so that’s expected. But that was not a cheap shot.

Should it have drawn a flag? I do think it should have. There are many examples of roughness flags thrown when a play resulted in a QB getting hit as he gave himself up, regardless of whether or not the tackler started the tackle late or was unable to avoid hitting the QB. The flag is thrown on what happens, not what the player intended to do, and the rules are meant to emphasize player safety. So I’d have understood a flag thrown in the play. I also wouldn’t be surprised if there is a fine afterward.

But a dirty play? Get real. He didn’t see Wentz start to give himself up and dove for him. Watch the play again, Wentz was still running when he started the tackle. And as talented as Clowney is, he lacks the superhuman ability to change direction in midair, especially in less than a second’s time. Don’t give in to emotional Philly fans (and some of their market’s “hot take” sports columnists) who are understandably upset about the result and are calling Clowney some kind of headhunter. It was an unfortunate play and I hope Wentz is okay afterward but Clowney didn't do anything intentional except try to tackle a running QB, which was his job.
  #66  
Old 01-06-2020, 11:42 AM
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One easy change that I've heard suggested is that instead of a coin toss, make it that the whichever team received the kickoff at the beginning of the game will receive the overtime kickoff as well. That allows for more strategy as to whether to play for a tie or a win - if you're down by 7, and get a touchdown in the closing seconds, but your defense is totally gassed and you know the other team will get the ball first, you may just go for 2 instead of 1. Doesn't fix everything, but it makes it a bit more interesting/fair.
I like that idea. Having two coin tosses in a game seems odd. And I like the idea that it allows for a bit more strategy in a game where you have to choose between going for the win or a tie. I think that would be an improvement.
  #67  
Old 01-06-2020, 12:07 PM
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Cheap shot, BS. He leaped at him to tackle him before or simultaneously with Wentz starting to give himself up. …
What the hell is this “giving himself up”? Wentz did not try to end the play, McDougal had grabbed his thigh and pulled him over. There was no giving himself up involved. Wentz was trying for as much yardage as he could get.
  #68  
Old 01-06-2020, 12:54 PM
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What the hell is this “giving himself up”? Wentz did not try to end the play, McDougal had grabbed his thigh and pulled him over. There was no giving himself up involved. Wentz was trying for as much yardage as he could get.
True, for some reason I misremembered that part, which is weird because the fact he never gave himself up was part of the explanation for the no flag. QBs who act like running backs get hurt, just ask Cam Newton (or check with Lamar Jackson in a few years). If you want to run and not get hurt, you need to run like Russell Wilson (who routinely gets his bell rung as a runner and a passer without drawing flags, but that’s another subject).

Last edited by Atamasama; 01-06-2020 at 12:54 PM.
  #69  
Old 01-06-2020, 04:47 PM
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Cheap shot, BS. He leaped at him to tackle him before or simultaneously with Wentz starting to give himself up. That was absolutely not a cheap shot, and Clowney does not have the background that suggests he does that kind of thing unlike someone like Suh or Burfict. I understand Philly fans screaming he should be kicked out of the league but they are Philly fans so that’s expected. But that was not a cheap shot.
(my bolding)

Clowney fined $21k for hit on Baker Mayfield

Clowney fined $18k for hit on Tom Brady

Clowney fined $40k for hit on Nick Foles
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Old 01-06-2020, 05:00 PM
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I'd love to see comments from Packers fans who are amazed that their team won 13 games this year and grabbed the #2 seed in the N.F.C. playoffs to find out what they think about the matchup with the Seahawks next Sunday.
I actually think this is the second best scenario possible. PHI would have been best. We played absolutely horrible when they beat us in the regular season and the injuries have piled up for them.

I didn't want anything to do with NO. I think Michael Thomas would have absolutely destroyed our secondary.

I'm kind of glad to be playing SEA. It's nice to finally play then at home. It seems like every big game we've played them in the Rodgers era have been in SEA. Despite the record, I haven't felt very good about this team all year. If they can beat SEA and look good, I give them a small chance to get to the SB. We've beat MIN twice and maybe they can pull out a W against SF. If the 49ers win, I think they smoke us again.

I feel like with the expectations I had for the year, I'm already spending found money.
  #71  
Old 01-06-2020, 05:35 PM
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Thank you for making my point.

The worst things he has ever done in 5 years was:

1) Push a QB.

2) Hit Tom Brady late enough to make him complain to refs.

3) Hit Nick Foles with his helmet, injuring him (which was probably his worst infraction).

And then this hit. There’s nothing egregious in his history that suggests he’s dirty, outside of crazy Philly fandom.
  #72  
Old 01-06-2020, 07:17 PM
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I used to have time to do real analysis on the match-ups. I just don't have that time anymore (moved thrice in three years), but I used to be pretty good at ignoring full-season records and judging the last 4-6 weeks of the season and match-ups against quality opponents.

I didn't realize the Vikes front four was as good as they are
. Had I known that, I might have been more cautious in my picks. Front four pressure is huge in the playoffs, especially if the defensive scheme is good and LBs can be effective in pass coverage.
That's the same front four that the Seahawks (NOT recognized around the country as having the top O-line in the league) ran all over in the two teams' meeting late in the season. Matter of fact I think the 'hawks gained more yards on the ground against the Grapes in that game than any other team did this season.
  #73  
Old 01-06-2020, 07:40 PM
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Meaningless trivia: since '02, the AFC has sent QBs named Rich, Joe, Peyton, Ben or Tom to the SB, those last 3 accounting for all but 2 SBs. This year's AFC SB QB will not have one of those names.
  #74  
Old 01-06-2020, 07:47 PM
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I like that idea. Having two coin tosses in a game seems odd. And I like the idea that it allows for a bit more strategy in a game where you have to choose between going for the win or a tie. I think that would be an improvement.
Another way to do this is to have the game just continue into OT directly from the end of the fourth. This has some of the same effects, like promoting going for 2 right at the end of regulation. A downside though is that you’d lose the urgency of breaking ties at the end of regulation. A team in a tie game wouldn’t have to rush a long FG to win at the end of regulation if they can just continue the drive in OT.
  #75  
Old 01-06-2020, 08:08 PM
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Another way to do this is to have the game just continue into OT directly from the end of the fourth. This has some of the same effects, like promoting going for 2 right at the end of regulation. A downside though is that you’d lose the urgency of breaking ties at the end of regulation. A team in a tie game wouldn’t have to rush a long FG to win at the end of regulation if they can just continue the drive in OT.
That's probably my least favorite option. Clock management and strategy at the end is hugely important, and taking that out of the equation removes a lot of drama.

I say play it like dodgeball. Each team lines up on their goal line, and the ref drops the ball on the 50. Whoever gets it first takes over, and you can run with it if you field it cleanly. Sure, each overtime would probably put a few players in the hospital, but it's a small price for the most exciting play in football, right?
  #76  
Old 01-06-2020, 08:12 PM
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Meaningless trivia: since '02, the AFC has sent QBs named Rich, Joe, Peyton, Ben or Tom to the SB, those last 3 accounting for all but 2 SBs. This year's AFC SB QB will not have one of those names.
There was a decade-long stretch (2002-2011) where all AFC representatives in the Super Bowl were the trio of Patriots, Steelers or Colts. It was three-way dominance of that conference.

Meanwhile, the NFC would put out a new representative nearly every single year. during that time Panthers, Eagles, Seahawks, Bears, Giants, Cardinals, Saints, and Packers.
  #77  
Old 01-06-2020, 08:21 PM
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Two teams play for eleven sixty minutes and prove that they are equally capable of scoring some number of points. The game is a toss-up. Why should the result not be equivalent to calling a coin toss, even with playoff advancement at stake?

Touchdowns are very hard to achieve. My OT scheme would be: play the ten minute OT interval(s), allowing as many FGs as either team can get, with no FG resulting in sudden-death; if the game remains tied at the end of the first OT, it is a tie (in regular season) or goes to the next OT (playoffs), otherwise, a difference in FGs at the end of OT is the final score. But, if either team scores in the endzone (TD or safety), that is the recorded OT winning score (all FGs erased for that OT interval).
  #78  
Old 01-06-2020, 09:14 PM
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Touchdowns are very hard to achieve.
Right, so why not make them the gold standard to win in OT? My proposal would be to eliminate FGs from OT altogether. First team to score a TD wins.

On fourth down, you have to either punt it away, or go for it. No FGs allowed. If you're in your own half, and it's 4th and long, you probably punt to try and pin the opposition deep in their own territory. If it's 4th down and you're inside the opposition 30 or 40, then you probably go for it, because failure just hands the ball over anyway. In making your 4th-down decision, you'd have to weigh your field position, the number of yards to go, and how confident you are in your defense.

I understand that there's no chance in hell that a system like this would be adopted, but I reckon people would find it exciting.
  #79  
Old 01-10-2020, 09:29 PM
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So fuck Clowney for a cheap shot on Wentz to take him out of the game. I hope the league gives him a huge fine.
sorry, no fine
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