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Old 01-13-2020, 01:47 PM
Sicks Ate is offline
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Dr.s/mental health pros: Neurofeedback testing for ADHD?


Gotta make this quick, but I am curious about using neurofeedback testing to identify ADHD by detecting "theta waves".

All of the Google-fu I used only came up with results for using neurofeedback as a therapy, I couldn't find ANYTHING about using it for diagnosis.

I spoke to the person at this clinic https://kcnpi.com/neurofeedback to see if she could shed some light on it. I asked for clarification a couple times, and she said that this testing was definitive, and if the theta waves don't show up on the analysis the person does NOT have ADHD.

I asked her if there were journal articles or something she could send me, and I was suspicious when she said that she didn't know any off the top of her head and it had been a while since she had been to "the training".

So is this a legitimate and definitive diagnostic tool? It seems to me that if it was, I should have been able to find something published on it.

TY
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Old 01-13-2020, 02:02 PM
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If this is what you mean, no, it's not definitive.
Quote:
Although it is not meant to be used alone as a means of confirming the presence of ADHD, it can be employed in combination with a complete medical and psychological assessment to help confirm the diagnosis or to indicate the direction that further testing should take.
Hopefully a real doctor can give a better answer.

Regards,
Shodan
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Old 01-13-2020, 06:14 PM
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I figured as much. TY!
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Old 01-13-2020, 07:39 PM
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Sounds like a FAD. Doctors, with some good reason, tend to follow fads. When things work out, they end up being a step ahead. I just got put on a tetracyclic antidepressant, for It's antihistamine effects. Went home, and returned to diphenhydramine. Anti H1 and H2 are all same, and I don't need all the anti-D weirdness. It's a current fad among doctors. Best to be aware, go along as needed, but watch out.
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Old 01-14-2020, 08:41 AM
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Since this is seeking medical advice, let's move it to IMHO.
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Old 01-14-2020, 11:51 AM
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I read a lot of research about the brain and they are finding more and more data supporting the idea that the various brain waves are an important part of cognition/computation and the coordination of groups of neurons across the brain, so it's in the realm of possibility that it could be used to detect adhd.

Here's some research about brain wave and adhd:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4973024/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4633088/
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles...018.00003/full
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Old 01-14-2020, 01:06 PM
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Of course research is ongoing, but as of right now, ADHD is a clinical diagnosis, meaning it's based on signs and symptoms. If your symptoms satisfy the DSM-5 criteria for ADHD, you have it; if they don't, you don't. Theta waves don't enter the picture.

In general, people touting this kind of thing are trying to sell you something. In this case, there's a lot of money to be made in cash-only ADHD clinics, because even people who don't have it feel like they have more energy and can get more work done when they're on a stimulant, so lots of people who don't really have it still want to get diagnosed with it and put on a stimulant. So there are lots of "specialty" clinics who are happy to take the money of and diagnose with ADHD anybody who walks in the door.
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Old 01-14-2020, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcite View Post
Of course research is ongoing, but as of right now, ADHD is a clinical diagnosis, meaning it's based on signs and symptoms. If your symptoms satisfy the DSM-5 criteria for ADHD, you have it; if they don't, you don't. Theta waves don't enter the picture.

In general, people touting this kind of thing are trying to sell you something. In this case, there's a lot of money to be made in cash-only ADHD clinics, because even people who don't have it feel like they have more energy and can get more work done when they're on a stimulant, so lots of people who don't really have it still want to get diagnosed with it and put on a stimulant. So there are lots of "specialty" clinics who are happy to take the money of and diagnose with ADHD anybody who walks in the door.
Agreed. Evidence for ADHD is generally gathered through rating scales, observations, and performance history in an academic setting, since that is where it generally causes the most difficulty. However, it is then up to a physician (usually) to make the formal diagnosis. Even though there is no reliable office "test" for the disorder, the physician is a vital part of the diagnostic team because it is she/he who can provide the most effective part of treatment, usually stimulant medication.
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Old 01-14-2020, 03:33 PM
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Cool. So, how do we feel about this :

Quote:
There are three brain waves that Theresa measured today, Alpha, Beta, and Theta. Theta is your resting brain function. High Theta indicative of ADHD. Xxxx's is medium-high. Alpha is your active, awake brain function. When you go from eyes closed and resting to eyes open, your Alpha should jump 50 to 100 times. Xxxx's Alpha waves are flat-lined. Basically, he lives in a state of overly-heightened awareness and never gets to REM sleep. He uses techniques like fidgeting and video games as a coping mechanism to wake up his brain. This isn't a conscious effort. His brain is compensating.

If you give stimulants to a child with low Alpha, they can become very aggressive. They can help him retrain his brain so he can get to REM sleep which could also resolve the high Theta. He needs to go weekly.

Theresa knows Darrell and is sending him the report, findings, and recommendations. Xxxx will still need to see Darrell for talk therapy, relaxation techniques, and behavior mod techniques.

Once we have resolved the Alpha issues, then we can retest him for ADHD. Theresa is available if you have specific questions
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Old 01-14-2020, 03:52 PM
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https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...edback-therapy

This article is older but has some good updates at the bottom.

Sounds like quackery to me.
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Old 01-14-2020, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Sicks Ate View Post
Cool. So, how do we feel about this :
Sounds like garbage.
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Old 01-14-2020, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Kelby View Post
Sounds like garbage.
Yeah. Unfortunately Xxxx's mom (my ex) is completely in to the idea.

Last edited by Sicks Ate; 01-14-2020 at 05:14 PM.
  #13  
Old 01-16-2020, 03:06 PM
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Looking at the website https://kcnpi.com/who-we-are, I notice that none of them are MDs. So they are not going to be able to prescribe medications even if the child needs them.

They may be well-meaning, but I wouldn't classify this as anything like a medically valid diagnosis. Behavior modification can help with ADHD and possibly even if Xxxxx doesn't really have ADHD.

Is this covered by insurance?

Regards,
Shodan

Last edited by Shodan; 01-16-2020 at 03:06 PM.
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