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  #701  
Old 01-12-2020, 10:07 PM
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He transferred members of the 82nd Airborne to the region in response to the attack on the embassy. So your post makes no sense.
I’ll put my coherence up against Trump’s anytime.
  #702  
Old 01-12-2020, 10:13 PM
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About the only time we weren't bombing Libya during the previous administration was when our embassy was attacked.
You're not addressing the actual substance of that post, which was glaring Republican double standards.
  #703  
Old 01-13-2020, 01:09 AM
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I'd be interested to learn more about that operation in Syria.

Point is I'm confident you can't kick a rock in the Middle East without finding ten Qasem Soleimanis. He was a very bad, evil general, planning all sorts of nefarious things. On your side that's called a freedom fighter.

There's very little that isn't wrong about this unprovoked military attack on Iran and violation of Iraqi sovereignty.
Finding English-language sources hasn't been easy, but check out this, this, this and this, all from before Soleimani's death.

I agree that America killing him in Iraq was a first-rate political faux pas. From the point of view of international law, it would have been much better if Israel had killed him in Syria - Israel is at war with Syria and he was in command of armed forces allied with Syria operating on Syrian soil. That's pretty cut and dry (Israel is also technically still at war with Iraq too, BTW). Of course, if Israel had killed Soleimani I'd probably be positing from a bomb shelter right now.

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  #704  
Old 01-13-2020, 04:58 AM
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I didn't specifically say it was a good reason to assassinate him. I was pushing back on the idea that we need evidence of an imminent threat or it was murder. He coordinated militia groups. Something, somewhere was imminent.
Oh, well as long as some undefined thing can be prevented (possibly) in the future, then murder away.
Hey, you know how to prevent EVERYTHING ? Just kill everyone !
  #705  
Old 01-13-2020, 05:00 AM
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He transferred members of the 82nd Airborne to the region in response to the attack on the embassy. So your post makes no sense.
Ah, but he didn't parachute them on minibikes within half an hour. So by your own standards, peepee poopoo he is a bad president.
  #706  
Old 01-13-2020, 08:53 AM
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I don't see in the article where it mentions he doesn't speak Arabic but that's a pretty bad sign.


My bad! Linked to the wrong article. Here's the correct one.

Relevant portion:

Quote:
Qaani does not speak Arabic, does not have an in-depth knowledge of Iraq, nor the insight of Soleimani and his ability to balance the different positions of Iraq's factions with the opinions of Ayatollah Khamenei and the religious authorities in Najaf.
  #707  
Old 01-13-2020, 06:51 PM
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Interesting read on NBC's website. In June, Mr. Trump set a bright red line of his own: the death of an American. That undermines the "imminent attacks" justification. Unlike Mr. Obama and Syria, this bright red line was not broadcast across public channels, and I suspect it was not even communicated to Iran along private channels.

I am left wondering,
"Of course, the whole point of a doomsday machine is lost... if you keep it a secret! Why didn't you tell the world, eh?"
~Dr. Strangelove
Lee, C. & Kube, C. (2020, Jan 13). "Trump authorized Soleimani's killing seven months ago." NBC News. Retrieved January 13, 2020 from https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/trump-authorized-soleimani-s-killing-7-months-ago-conditions-n1113271

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  #708  
Old 01-13-2020, 07:48 PM
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Oh, well as long as some undefined thing can be prevented (possibly) in the future, then murder away.
Hey, you know how to prevent EVERYTHING ? Just kill everyone !
First they came for the coordinators of international webs of militants and I said nothing for I wasn't a coordinator of an international web of militants...
  #709  
Old 01-13-2020, 07:52 PM
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Interesting read on NBC's website. In June, Mr. Trump set a bright red line of his own: the death of an American....
Drama and trauma. What prevents America from spreading citizens anywhere it likes, and warning that any harm comes to them, its war? Our enemies will see this as a provocation, or at the very least, the installation of another tripwire for death and horror. (Does it make any difference if the American is a soldier?)

Iran controls many sub-groups of terrorists and "militia". If Tehran were to order them to restrict themselves by ensuring no injury to American citizens, would they be obeyed? Unanimously? And if someone does not obey, who are we going to blame? If Iran had made every effort to obey, but failed....would we believe them? Or is that one of those questions that get asked later.

If a sane person were doing this, I might think he was bluffing. Alas.
  #710  
Old 01-13-2020, 08:33 PM
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He transferred members of the 82nd Airborne to the region in response to the attack on the embassy. So your post makes no sense.
How much did that cost him?
  #711  
Old 01-13-2020, 08:38 PM
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He transferred members of the 82nd Airborne to the region in response to the attack on the embassy. So your post makes no sense.
How much did that cost him?
  #712  
Old 01-13-2020, 09:36 PM
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https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/s...minent-threats

State Dept. Officials ‘Blindsided’ By Trump’s ‘Imminent’ Threats Claim

Imminent threat? Didn't bother to advise the State Dept people sitting in the alleged target.
  #713  
Old 01-14-2020, 12:30 AM
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Ah, but he didn't parachute them on minibikes within half an hour. So by your own standards, peepee poopoo he is a bad president.
Actually he had Apache helicopters in the area. And instead of delivering millions in cash in the dead of night to appease Iranian warlords he took out their military leader.

the end result of this are protest by Iranians against the same leadership under threat of live ammunition.
  #714  
Old 01-14-2020, 06:45 AM
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CNN reports many protestors have been arrested.
  #715  
Old 01-14-2020, 01:40 PM
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Iran's president calls for a special court to investigate crash and for all those responsible to be punished':

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/...071925923.html

Compare and contrast to the US Navy which awarded special commendation medals for "meritorious service" to two of the top officers who were serving on the USS Vincennes at the time the cruiser shot down a civilian Iranian airliner in Iranian airspace killing all 290 people aboard:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...222-story.html

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  #716  
Old 01-14-2020, 10:16 PM
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Interesting read on NBC's website. In June, Mr. Trump set a bright red line of his own: the death of an American. That undermines the "imminent attacks" justification. Unlike Mr. Obama and Syria, this bright red line was not broadcast across public channels, and I suspect it was not even communicated to Iran along private channels.

I am left wondering,
"Of course, the whole point of a doomsday machine is lost... if you keep it a secret! Why didn't you tell the world, eh?"
~Dr. Strangelove
Lee, C. & Kube, C. (2020, Jan 13). "Trump authorized Soleimani's killing seven months ago." NBC News. Retrieved January 13, 2020 from https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/trump-authorized-soleimani-s-killing-7-months-ago-conditions-n1113271

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Is that something that countries really need to be told? Don't kill Americans?
  #717  
Old 01-14-2020, 10:29 PM
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Iran's president calls for a special court to investigate crash and for all those responsible to be punished':

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/...071925923.html

Compare and contrast to the US Navy which awarded special commendation medals for "meritorious service" to two of the top officers who were serving on the USS Vincennes at the time the cruiser shot down a civilian Iranian airliner in Iranian airspace killing all 290 people aboard:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...222-story.html

There are no good guys - and no bad guys, just interests and advantages.
On the other hand, the BBC is reporting that the Iranian government has made at least one arrest related to the shoot-down...

...Of the person who happened to film the missile strike.
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  #718  
Old 01-14-2020, 11:00 PM
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On the other hand, the BBC is reporting that the Iranian government has made at least one arrest related to the shoot-down...

...Of the person who happened to film the missile strike.
I don't understand any of this. Clearly it was an accident. Some guy thought it was a U.S. aircraft counter attacking after a missile strike and he made a terrible tragic mistake.

After hearing of this, there are massive protests on the street and the government wants to arrest him/them...probably execute him/them.

Why is there such outrage over an accident? I mean, I'm sure they are upset, but why a pound of flesh over this?
  #719  
Old 01-15-2020, 05:32 AM
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In part because people aren’t as willing to sweep things under the rug as you seem to be; in part because the government lied about it, and would have continued doing so had other countries not announced that there was good reason to believe it wasn’t a mechanical failure.
  #720  
Old 01-15-2020, 05:48 AM
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The government killed a whole bunch of its own citizens and tried to cover it up. Why wouldn't people be angry?

Plus, the Iranian people haven't been happy with their government for a while now - there have been massive, often bloody demonstrations for several months now. If this wasn't the last straw, it was pretty damn close.
  #721  
Old 01-15-2020, 10:12 AM
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Is that something that countries really need to be told? Don't kill Americans?
That wasn't my point. The President drew a bright line and retaliated with force when that line was crossed, but apparently he didn't clearly communicate the threat beforehand. Obviously it is bad for Iran to kill Americans, but it would appear our President missed an opportunity to use our military strength as a deterrent.

In other words, Mr. Trump's actions here is what one would call reactive foreign policy. There was a chance to be proactive with traditional brinkmanship. I can't say that the bright red line approach would have prevented Mr. Hamid's death, but it definitely could have. And if the Iranians killed an American after the public threat, hawks would have their cassus belli and doves could hope for an Obama-style diplomatic offramp.

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  #722  
Old 01-15-2020, 12:02 PM
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IMHO, Trump didn't announce his line in the sand because he didn't want it to become a point of public debate. He's so thin-skinned, so adverse to anything but fulsome praise of his position and actions, that the possible deterrent effect of announcing his line in the sand was outweighed in his gut mind by the horrible trauma he'd experience of Congressmen and pundits discussing the merits of his position and possibly not agreeing with it.
  #723  
Old 01-15-2020, 12:21 PM
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IMHO, Trump didn't announce his line in the sand because he didn't want it to become a point of public debate. He's so thin-skinned, so adverse to anything but fulsome praise of his position and actions, that the possible deterrent effect of announcing his line in the sand was outweighed in his gut mind by the horrible trauma he'd experience of Congressmen and pundits discussing the merits of his position and possibly not agreeing with it.
Either that, or he just didn't think it through. It's easy to become convinced that what's evident to us is just as evident to everyone else - even when it's utterly silly. "I just made up my mind, so that's settled [and no need to communicate it to anyone] [also I'll get pissed off when the world acts as if I hadn't communicated my decision]" is stupendously common. Ask any married couple.
  #724  
Old 01-15-2020, 12:31 PM
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Either that, or he just didn't think it through. It's easy to become convinced that what's evident to us is just as evident to everyone else - even when it's utterly silly. "I just made up my mind, so that's settled [and no need to communicate it to anyone] [also I'll get pissed off when the world acts as if I hadn't communicated my decision]" is stupendously common. Ask any married couple.
Well, my wife has never directly told me not to sleep with her sister. A "red line" if you will. So if I do, and she files for divorce, I guess I'll tell the judge that it is her fault for having poor communication skills.
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Old 01-15-2020, 01:31 PM
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Christ, is it official US policy that if a US citizen is killed abroad we're going to conduct revenge executions? If so, that's fucked, regardless of whether or not we announce it first. Can't believe this is the discussion we're having.
  #726  
Old 01-15-2020, 01:38 PM
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Well, my wife has never directly told me not to sleep with her sister. A "red line" if you will. So if I do, and she files for divorce, I guess I'll tell the judge that it is her fault for having poor communication skills.
I fortunately have zero desire to screw my Trampster SIL. Meanwhile, this assassination thing is obviously a wag-the-dog diversion. That's what we should discuss. Tramp took this belligerent step because he fears exposure, removal, and imprisonment. The next step will be more tragic.
  #727  
Old 01-15-2020, 02:25 PM
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I fortunately have zero desire to screw my Trampster SIL. Meanwhile, this assassination thing is obviously a wag-the-dog diversion. That's what we should discuss. Tramp took this belligerent step because he fears exposure, removal, and imprisonment. The next step will be more tragic.
Or perhaps he just enjoys screwing with people, showing off what he can do.
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  #728  
Old 01-15-2020, 02:44 PM
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Well, my wife has never directly told me not to sleep with her sister. A "red line" if you will. So if I do, and she files for divorce, I guess I'll tell the judge that it is her fault for having poor communication skills.
But, if your wife were to actually murder you for sleeping with her sister, she should have given you fair warning that she would do that.

There's a difference between tit-for-tat and escalation. Your wife divorcing you for infidelity? Yeah, that's proportional, should be expected. Your wife committing mariticide? That should be warned.
  #729  
Old 01-15-2020, 03:33 PM
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Well, my wife has never directly told me not to sleep with her sister. A "red line" if you will. So if I do, and she files for divorce, I guess I'll tell the judge that it is her fault for having poor communication skills.
But if you did and she cut your throat while you were asleep over it, I think you might have a case against her. Posthumous as it may be.

ETA : oh, hey, Ravenman Great minds and that. Or alcoholics. Either way ?

Last edited by Jonathan Chance; 01-15-2020 at 04:47 PM. Reason: Fixing misspelling.
  #730  
Old 01-15-2020, 05:17 PM
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Is that something that countries really need to be told? Don't kill Americans?
Is this ANY country, or only the ones that some have been clamoring to "Bomb! Bomb!" for years? Because a Saudi soldier killed three Americans on US soil just a couple months ago.

Given that they're all going home, including the ones with extremist ties, this can't be considered an actual policy.
  #731  
Old 01-15-2020, 05:51 PM
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Christ, is it official US policy that if a US citizen is killed abroad we're going to conduct revenge executions? If so, that's fucked, regardless of whether or not we announce it first. Can't believe this is the discussion we're having.
Only... if it's a terrorist being killed for revenge? I don't know, dude.

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  #732  
Old 01-15-2020, 08:04 PM
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Or perhaps he just enjoys screwing with people, showing off what he can do.
If an almighty deity wanted to send a clear message to Earthlings, I'd expect it inscribed across the face of Luna so all would notice. If a POTUS is to show their might, delivering a single drone strike in a land the US occupies looks pretty wimpish. Tehran, Pyongyang, Caracas, and San Francisco aren't yet radioactive ruins. Dissidents haven't been rounded up. Rivers haven't caught fire. C'mon, do something! (On second thought, don't.)

Every US military officer and civilian contractor worldwide should quiver in fear or change careers - now they're openly Iranian targets. Will the Pentagon swamp be drained?
  #733  
Old 01-16-2020, 12:48 PM
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[...]and San Francisco[...]




ETA:

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  #734  
Old 01-16-2020, 07:06 PM
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Every US military officer and civilian contractor worldwide should quiver in fear or change careers - now they're openly Iranian targets. Will the Pentagon swamp be drained?
So we should fear attacks on Embassies and the capture of Sailors? Noooooooooo.........

We'll just take the plane not used for rescue efforts and fill it with money for a midnight raid on Iran. That'll teach them not to fund terrorism.
  #735  
Old 01-17-2020, 05:38 AM
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https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/16/polit...ike/index.html

11 US service members were indeed injured by the Iranian rocket attack and evacuated to hospitals in Europe. So, not surprisingly, the administration lied again when they said no casualties. So not only had Trump needlessly inflamed tensions with Iran due to a possible illegal assassination, he also gets 11 troops injured.
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Old 01-17-2020, 08:12 AM
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https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/16/polit...ike/index.html

11 US service members were indeed injured by the Iranian rocket attack and evacuated to hospitals in Europe. So, not surprisingly, the administration lied again when they said no casualties. So not only had Trump needlessly inflamed tensions with Iran due to a possible illegal assassination, he also gets 11 troops injured.
OK, but other than the President, Vice President, Attorney General, the Pentagon, Chief of Staff, Commerce Secretary, NOAA,, Treasury Secretary, and Secretary of State, who from this administration has lied to the American people in an easily verifiable way?

I'm sure the undersecretary for some department has been honest and forthcoming with us, his employers!
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Old 01-17-2020, 08:34 AM
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https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/16/polit...ike/index.html

11 US service members were indeed injured by the Iranian rocket attack and evacuated to hospitals in Europe. So, not surprisingly, the administration lied again when they said no casualties. So not only had Trump needlessly inflamed tensions with Iran due to a possible illegal assassination, he also gets 11 troops injured.
NPR reports that the wounded didn't show symptoms at once. They were hospitalized due to "an abundance of caution".
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  #738  
Old 01-17-2020, 08:58 AM
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NPR reports that the wounded didn't show symptoms at once. They were hospitalized due to "an abundance of caution".
How do we interpret that, they were close enough to the blasts that they may have concussive damage?

Let's hope none of them take their own lives from the PTSD they got from surviving a rocket attack.
  #739  
Old 01-17-2020, 01:27 PM
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How do we interpret that, they were close enough to the blasts that they may have concussive damage?

Let's hope none of them take their own lives from the PTSD they got from surviving a rocket attack.
They probably consider themselves tough guys, and when the symptoms didn't go away as expected, they realized they had been injured.
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Old 01-17-2020, 01:46 PM
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That's what most non-tough guys do too.
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Old 01-17-2020, 02:17 PM
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How do we interpret that, they were close enough to the blasts that they may have concussive damage?
Yes. From here
Quote:
A separate U.S. defense official speaking on background confirmed eleven Americans had been sent out of Iraq for treatment.

“As a standard procedure, all personnel in the vicinity of a blast are screened for traumatic brain injury, and if deemed appropriate, are transported to a higher level of care. At this time, eight individuals have been transported to Landstuhl, and three have been transported to Camp Arifjan,”
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According to a fourth senior U.S. defense official, “About a week after the attack some service members were still experiencing some symptoms of concussion.” The official expected more information would be released soon. “We only got wind of this in the last 24 hours.”
back to your post...
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Let's hope none of them take their own lives from the PTSD they got from surviving a rocket attack.
It is unlikely this has been the first time under fire this deployment for those troops unless they were very fresh off the plane. Between IS remnants operating as guerrillas and Iranian backed militias indirect fire attacks happen. Sure, cumulative stressors matter. This did involve more and much bigger warheads than typical. Still, this isn't likely the first or last traumatic stressor that they will be exposed to during their current deployment. Especially at al-Asad airbase where there is a larger IS threat. Let's not assign this one more importance just because it got much more media attention than the rest.

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So, not surprisingly, the administration lied again when they said no casualties.
The best I can see out of this is evidence for the old saw I learned as a staff officer - the first report is always wrong. Being wrong is not lying. Although possible, I am not even seeing a lot of evidence for it being wrong due to negligence or incompetence. These kind of injuries are not necessarily obvious in the time frame that saw that first report. Something severe like loss of consciousness or double vision right after the attack should be caught. More minor symptoms like headaches or minor dizziness just aren't going to make that first report.

I just assumed MTBI (mild traumatic brain injury) was a possible injury that wasn't covered when they said there were no casualties. I expected MTBI was the major cause when I saw the first report with 11 unspecified casualties this morning. I left open the option that there were a couple sprains and strains type injuries related to being in a hurry to throw on their protective gear and hurry to a bunker.

My biggest surprise from today's reports is the amount of surprise in the reaction to these reports. Sometimes I forget that my experience is atypical.

Last edited by DinoR; 01-17-2020 at 02:19 PM.
  #742  
Old 01-17-2020, 02:27 PM
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It is unlikely this has been the first time under fire this deployment for those troops unless they were very fresh off the plane. Between IS remnants operating as guerrillas and Iranian backed militias indirect fire attacks happen. Sure, cumulative stressors matter. This did involve more and much bigger warheads than typical. Still, this isn't likely the first or last traumatic stressor that they will be exposed to during their current deployment. Especially at al-Asad airbase where there is a larger IS threat. Let's not assign this one more importance just because it got much more media attention than the rest.
That's fair. All the more reason not to diminish the impact of deployments to our personnel over there. People send to be pretty cavalier about sending troops in general and attacks like this in particular.
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Old 01-17-2020, 06:24 PM
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Not to defend the Trump administration, but hiding your casualties from the enemy is warfare 101.
Besides, it helped de-escalate the situation. If it had become public that Americans were wounded, the Iranians might have been encouraged to attack again, and the Americans would have felt compelled to retaliate. Better to keep stuff under wraps for a bit until things cool down.
  #744  
Old 01-17-2020, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Alessan View Post
Not to defend the Trump administration, but hiding your casualties from the enemy is warfare 101.
Besides, it helped de-escalate the situation. If it had become public that Americans were wounded, the Iranians might have been encouraged to attack again, and the Americans would have felt compelled to retaliate. Better to keep stuff under wraps for a bit until things cool down.
This ^
  #745  
Old 01-18-2020, 12:49 AM
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...other than the President, Vice President, Attorney General, the Pentagon, Chief of Staff, Commerce Secretary, NOAA,, Treasury Secretary, and Secretary of State, who from this administration has lied to the American people in an easily verifiable way?
This is the same as, "Which Tramp appointees have ever had contact with the press?"

My un-answered meta-question: "To the US, what does victory in the MidEast look like? How will we know we've won?" I recall a paperback titled, "If You Don't Know Where You're Going, You'll Probably End Up Somewhere Else". Where does endless war go?
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Old 01-19-2020, 07:42 AM
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American service members are obliged to be attentive to the care and maintenance of military equipment, such as themselves. Military engagements of the last century required policy review regarding uniform decorations, especially helmets, that seemed to reflect political opinions (as in "FTA", commonly interpreted as "Fondle the Armament"...) Since serving combat personnel had already been issued their full set of political opinions, these were deemed unnecessary, but otherwise irrelevant.

Helmet decorations like the so called "peace sign" were frowned upon as enhancing the enemy's targeting skills and encouraging moral turpitude and situational relativism in limiting the enemy's lifestyle choices, with maximum prejudice.

Last edited by elucidator; 01-19-2020 at 07:43 AM.
  #747  
Old 01-19-2020, 09:41 AM
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Guess it's 5 o'clock somewhere.
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