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  #151  
Old 01-10-2020, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by asahi View Post
Over time, it just became obvious to me that conservatives were full of shit.
I didn't take long (like till I was 16) to realize that even "moderate" GOPs then were not working to benefit most of America. And 16 years later, deregulation rolled in, proving it.

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Originally Posted by Loach View Post
I’m still right of center on many issues and either liberal or dontcareian on most social issues. That hasn’t changed. Instead of mostly voting republican I now really hate both parties. I guess that’s an improvement.
# Liberal: Let's make things better by next week.
# Conservative: Let's keep what's good from last week.
# Reactionary: Gotta return to good-old-days of 1900, dammit!

The first two can work things out, but not with the last. I guess my liberal-conservative chimera emerged when, as a rad-lib longhair in my mid-20s, I volunteered for the US Army. Not so I could kill people, but because I thought service to my country was a noble duty. And I feel no need to regard the views of those who failed put themselves at risk to serve a greater interest. If they didn't care enough to pledge their Lives, Fortunes, and sacred Honor” for their nation, fuck-em.

No, I didn't vote for Obama.

I can't position myself in relation to "center" because US politics no long HAS a center. I can't rail at DemoGops because the parties rarely cooperate, as they did supporting past non-constitutional wars. Now, no party reflects me. But I can tell which is shit.
  #152  
Old 01-10-2020, 06:24 PM
Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Obama in his 20s was a relative nobody. His views then, from what I've read, were far to the left of how he governed as president.
And if AOC comes back in her 40's with a more mature, less ignorant, less petulant, and less divisive approach to politics, she might be good for the country. Right now she is just part of the Left's version of the tea party.

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And you haven't offered any "embarrassing ignorance" from AOC.
Do you really not know?

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...pentagon-acco/
https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...efense-budget/
https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...l-counts-abou/

She ended up costing her district thousands of good paying Amazon jobs with her rhetoric and then pretended tha tthe opening of a 1500 person office in manhattan is somehow the same thing as a 25,000 person headquarters in her district and her neighboring district.

https://nypost.com/2019/12/07/aoc-cl...e-gop-disinfo/

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Energized, excited young progressives who care about doing good are hugely valuable to the party.
Trump rode into office on a similar wave of excited ignorant fool. Ignorant fools are only valuable if they eventually stop being ignorant and foolish. AOC shows no inclination to do either.

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If the party boots folks like AOC, it loses tons of young progressives - the whole next generation of the party.
She is not irreplacable. Heaven help us if she is. We won't lose a whole next generation of the party. That's alarmist. You might as well say that the world is going to end in 12 years

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...rm/2642481002/.

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We have room for progressives like her, and we're far better off with her on the team than outside.
That's what the republicans said about the tea party. Look who they have leading the party now. We have room for progressives like her in the tent but not as the face of the party in any way shape or form.

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She's been in congress for less than a single term. It's crazy to make the kind of conclusions you've made about her so quickly. She's barely 30! In ten years she'll be ten years smarter.
Tell her to come back then.

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What you advocate sounds like a path to a dead party. I want progressives in progressive districts. And I want moderates in moderate districts. I want a big and diverse party.
So what is it that you think you know about the people in her district?
  #153  
Old 01-10-2020, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
And if AOC comes back in her 40's with a more mature, less ignorant, less petulant, and less divisive approach to politics, she might be good for the country. Right now she is just part of the Left's version of the tea party.
You keep saying this, but it's nonsense. The tea party was a culture-based white grievance movement. AOC is not comparable to that. There are lots of young progressives like her.

Two math errors and hyperbole... God forbid! Imagine a politician making an error, or using hyperbole? How terrible!

What a joke. On the facts she's better than pretty much all the Republicans and, AFAICT, about the same as most other Democrats (most of whom have way more experience). A 29 year old first-term politician using hyperbole and a couple of math errors is not evidence of ignorance.

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She ended up costing her district thousands of good paying Amazon jobs with her rhetoric and then pretended tha tthe opening of a 1500 person office in manhattan is somehow the same thing as a 25,000 person headquarters in her district and her neighboring district.

https://nypost.com/2019/12/07/aoc-cl...e-gop-disinfo/
This was a policy difference. She didn't want her community giving Amazon lots of tax breaks/perks. Maybe you disagree, but that's a legitimate policy position.

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Trump rode into office on a similar wave of excited ignorant fool. Ignorant fools are only valuable if they eventually stop being ignorant and foolish. AOC shows no inclination to do either.
Trump rode a wave of cultural anxiety and white grievance, largely from older white Americans. That's not remotely comparable to youthful progressive exuberance.

And once again, she's just a representative. She's not perfect, but she's already been enormously helpful to the party by bringing so much excitement, relatively speaking for someone in her position. That overwhelmingly makes up for a handful of extremely minor mistakes she's made.

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She is not irreplacable. Heaven help us if she is. We won't lose a whole next generation of the party. That's alarmist. You might as well say that the world is going to end in 12 years

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...rm/2642481002/.
Of course she's not irreplaceable (and oh no, more hyperbole!). But being unwelcoming to all the folks like her will lose the party millions. There are tons of young progressives who like her and who think like her. The party needs these folks, now and especially in the future.

The party needs folks like you, folks like me, and folks like AOC. It shouldn't be trying to boot any of these categories.

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That's what the republicans said about the tea party. Look who they have leading the party now. We have room for progressives like her in the tent but not as the face of the party in any way shape or form.
That's what we said about Obama. And Bernie. And lots of other popular Democrats. The tea party was bad, these guys are good. AOC is good. The GOP and Trump are terrible. AOC is not. She's not remotely comparable.

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Tell her to come back then.
Only if I wanted to hurt the future of the party. Sounds like a bad idea to me. I want young, smart, energetic progressives like her. And they don't have to be perfect, especially not in their first terms in Congress. A few mistakes and occasional hyperbole aren't the end of the world.

Sounds like you buy the Rush Limbaugh view of AOC. On this, like most things, he's full of shit. AOC and folks like her are great for the party.

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So what is it that you think you know about the people in her district?
They voted for her and generally support her.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 01-10-2020 at 07:05 PM.
  #154  
Old 01-11-2020, 07:14 PM
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How does attacking AOC relate to liberal-to-conservative shifts? Does going pro-Tramp qualify as a move to actual conservatism, or grievance politics, or treason, or insanity?
  #155  
Old 01-11-2020, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
You keep saying this, but it's nonsense. The tea party was a culture-based white grievance movement. AOC is not comparable to that. There are lots of young progressives like her.
And there is room for them in the tent. Happy to have them on the bus. Don't want them anywhere near the steering wheel. And we certainly don't want them kicking other democrats off the bus.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/09/opini...rop/index.html

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Two math errors and hyperbole... God forbid! Imagine a politician making an error, or using hyperbole? How terrible!

What a joke. On the facts she's better than pretty much all the Republicans and, AFAICT, about the same as most other Democrats (most of whom have way more experience). A 29 year old first-term politician using hyperbole and a couple of math errors is not evidence of ignorance.
You asked for examples, I gave you several now it seems like you are either asking for more or will actually never admit she is embarrassingly ignorant no matter how many examples i offer.

Perhaps one day she will mature into someone that can be taken seriously. But that day is not here yet.

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This was a policy difference. She didn't want her community giving Amazon lots of tax breaks/perks. Maybe you disagree, but that's a legitimate policy position.
In the end I think that probably worked out. Amazon is opening it's headquarters in Virginia and that will probably go a long was towards keeping Virginia blue in the future. We don't really need more democratic voters in NYC.

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Trump rode a wave of cultural anxiety and white grievance, largely from older white Americans. That's not remotely comparable to youthful progressive exuberance.
I agree with much of your diagnosis of why trump got elected. But her Justice Democrats are still a radicalizing force in the Democratic party. Every bit as dangerous as the tea party was to the republicans when they first started out.

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And once again, she's just a representative. She's not perfect, but she's already been enormously helpful to the party by bringing so much excitement, relatively speaking for someone in her position. That overwhelmingly makes up for a handful of extremely minor mistakes she's made.
She is trying to push the party to the left in the same way that the tea party was trying to move the party to the right. In fact her stated goal at one time was to help primary more democrats so that she could move the party further to the left.

She did not play any part in how we won the house. She won a safe Democratic seat by primarying a Democratic incumbent. We didn't win the house because of people like AOC. We won the house on the backs of dozens of MODERATE Democrats who won in swing districts. If I have to choose between exciting radicals like AOC and controlling the house, I will take Pelosi controlling the house any day. AOC can be exciting without crapping on moderate democrats.

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Of course she's not irreplaceable (and oh no, more hyperbole!). But being unwelcoming to all the folks like her will lose the party millions. There are tons of young progressives who like her and who think like her. The party needs these folks, now and especially in the future.
They are welcome. We want them on the bus, we just don't want them driving it and we certainly don't want them kicking other democrats off the bus. And that is what they are doing. The justice Democrats want to purge the Democratic party of moderates.

They are welcome in the tent, there's a nice table in the corner where they can hang out with the other radicals until it's time to vote. Radicals do not win you state legislatures and governorships. Radicals don't win you the house. Radical do not win you the senate. Radicals do not win swing states or the white house.

How do you think AOC and her squad would do in swing districts? In swing states?

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The party needs folks like you, folks like me, and folks like AOC. It shouldn't be trying to boot any of these categories.
And yet that is almost exactly what she wants to do. She is critical of moderate democrats. AOC is not going to win us any seats we weren't already going to win.

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That's what we said about Obama. And Bernie. And lots of other popular Democrats. The tea party was bad, these guys are good. AOC is good. The GOP and Trump are terrible. AOC is not. She's not remotely comparable.
I don't recall ever saying that about Obama. Heck, people have accused me of being a Bernie bro on this site.

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Only if I wanted to hurt the future of the party. Sounds like a bad idea to me. I want young, smart, energetic progressives like her. And they don't have to be perfect, especially not in their first terms in Congress. A few mistakes and occasional hyperbole aren't the end of the world.
Why would that hurt the future of the party? I thought we agreed that she is not irreplacable. She doesn't even have to leave. Just sit down and stop attacking other democrats for being moderate. Stop embarrassing herself on the national stage.

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Sounds like you buy the Rush Limbaugh view of AOC. On this, like most things, he's full of shit. AOC and folks like her are great for the party.
What is the Rush Limbaugh view of AOC?

A few terms in congress may sand away the ignorance and counterproductive behavior but attacking other democrats and calling for fairly liberal democrats to be primaried if they aren't progressive enough is bad for the party.

That was turned me off of her. Since then she has said or done many things that have reinforce my opinion of her.

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They voted for her and generally support her.
2% of her district voted to make her the Democratic candidate in an off year primary. The incumbent didn't take her seriously enough.

She is significantly more radical than her district of mostly immigrant working class and poor voters. But she is charismatic and she will likely get re-elected.
  #156  
Old 01-12-2020, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
... attacking other democrats and calling for fairly liberal democrats to be primaried if they aren't progressive enough is bad for the party.

2% of her district voted to make her the Democratic candidate in an off year primary. The incumbent didn't take her seriously enough.
I don't follow the news. How and who is she "attacking"? Or is this an exaggeration?

Your "2%" figure is rather disingenuous. I assume you realize that non-citizens and and under-18's are not allowed to vote. Even so, the correct figure is a little higher than 2%.

But another way to describe her primary victory is that she got almost as many votes in the low-turnout primary as her GOP opponent got in the general! She'd whupped Crowley in the primary — but on the topic of Democrats attacking their own party, what about Crowley? He refused to take his name off the ballot in deference to the woman the Democratic Party had picked. Didn't he even get his pal, the ex-Senator from Insurancecticutt, to endorse him in the general?
  #157  
Old 01-12-2020, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
And there is room for them in the tent. Happy to have them on the bus. Don't want them anywhere near the steering wheel. And we certainly don't want them kicking other democrats off the bus.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/09/opini...rop/index.html
Citing an opinion piece that AOC should leave the party doesn't sound like you think there's "room for them in the tent".

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You asked for examples, I gave you several now it seems like you are either asking for more or will actually never admit she is embarrassingly ignorant no matter how many examples i offer.

Perhaps one day she will mature into someone that can be taken seriously. But that day is not here yet.
You gave extremely weak and mundane examples. The problem in American politics is not math errors and occasional hyperbole. That's not why the Tea Party was awful, and that's not why Trump and co are awful.

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In the end I think that probably worked out. Amazon is opening it's headquarters in Virginia and that will probably go a long was towards keeping Virginia blue in the future. We don't really need more democratic voters in NYC.
So... she was right? Glad to have you onboard the AOC train!

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I agree with much of your diagnosis of why trump got elected. But her Justice Democrats are still a radicalizing force in the Democratic party. Every bit as dangerous as the tea party was to the republicans when they first started out.

She is trying to push the party to the left in the same way that the tea party was trying to move the party to the right. In fact her stated goal at one time was to help primary more democrats so that she could move the party further to the left.
The Tea Party actually helped the GOP in terms of getting elected, unfortunately. If that's "dangerous" to the party, then I'm all for it. But unlike the Tea Party, AOC and her allies aren't driven by hatred and cultural grievance. On policy, she's pretty damn good, and pretty damn smart. A few math errors and occasional hyperbole don't eliminate that at all.

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She did not play any part in how we won the house. She won a safe Democratic seat by primarying a Democratic incumbent. We didn't win the house because of people like AOC. We won the house on the backs of dozens of MODERATE Democrats who won in swing districts. If I have to choose between exciting radicals like AOC and controlling the house, I will take Pelosi controlling the house any day. AOC can be exciting without crapping on moderate democrats.
Excitement played a huge role in getting back the House. She was part of that wave, even if she was just a small part. We won because of her and plenty of other exciting young Democrats, including some moderates. Luckily, we don't have to choose -- we can have them all, and we can have Pelosi too... and AOC has been on record, many times, supporting Pelosi. Occasional disagreements haven't marred that support at all.

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They are welcome. We want them on the bus, we just don't want them driving it and we certainly don't want them kicking other democrats off the bus. And that is what they are doing. The justice Democrats want to purge the Democratic party of moderates.

They are welcome in the tent, there's a nice table in the corner where they can hang out with the other radicals until it's time to vote. Radicals do not win you state legislatures and governorships. Radicals don't win you the house. Radical do not win you the senate. Radicals do not win swing states or the white house.

How do you think AOC and her squad would do in swing districts? In swing states?
She'd probably do about the same as moderates (like Crowley) would do in her district -- not so well. So what? Why is this notable? Obama probably wouldn't have won a Senate race in Missouri or Arizona. But despite fears that he was radical, unelectable, or extreme, he turned out to be a fantastic candidate. Right now AOC is just a rep, and we don't have to worry about such things for her at all. Maybe one day she'll run for Senate or Governor of NY -- and there's a great chance she'll win. We can talk about your worries again on that day.

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And yet that is almost exactly what she wants to do. She is critical of moderate democrats. AOC is not going to win us any seats we weren't already going to win.
Oh no! Criticism against moderates! How horrible! Almost like a Democrat criticizing progressives like AOC... I'm sure that would never happen, and you'd be very angry about that, right?
  #158  
Old 01-12-2020, 02:30 PM
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  #159  
Old 01-12-2020, 04:08 PM
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I don't follow the news. How and who is she "attacking"? Or is this an exaggeration?
Have you not heard her going after moderate Democrats. She thinks the Democratic party's tent is too big.

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Your "2%" figure is rather disingenuous. I assume you realize that non-citizens and and under-18's are not allowed to vote. Even so, the correct figure is a little higher than 2%.
I'm going off of census numbers. She won her seat with 15,000 total votes. There are 700,000 people in her district. It's the only number I saw on this site https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Yo...ional_district

Do you have better numbers you would like to use? There is almost no metric by which 15,000 votes looks like a lot unless you look at people who actually voted in an off year primary election that was not really supposed to be competitive.

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But another way to describe her primary victory is that she got almost as many votes in the low-turnout primary as her GOP opponent got in the general! She'd whupped Crowley in the primary — but on the topic of Democrats attacking their own party, what about Crowley? He refused to take his name off the ballot in deference to the woman the Democratic Party had picked. Didn't he even get his pal, the ex-Senator from Insurancecticutt, to endorse him in the general?
Crowley endorsed AOC in the general. The fact that some splinter party continued to run him on their ticket is not really his fault. It's not really his fault that Joe Lieberman thinks AOC is a fruitcake and horrible for the party.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...m/?arc404=true
  #160  
Old 01-12-2020, 04:23 PM
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So... she was right? Glad to have you onboard the AOC train!
It was serendipitous but it was never her intent to make Virginia more blue.

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The Tea Party actually helped the GOP in terms of getting elected, unfortunately. If that's "dangerous" to the party, then I'm all for it. But unlike the Tea Party, AOC and her allies aren't driven by hatred and cultural grievance. On policy, she's pretty damn good, and pretty damn smart. A few math errors and occasional hyperbole don't eliminate that at all.
I would not describe her as smart (she's not stupid) and certainly not good on policy.
If I were to describe her I would say that she is charismatic, well spoken and photogenic. Perhaps she just needs better advisors that will prevent her from making such embarrassing mistakes and help her navigate a course that doesn't involve being a perpetual minority.

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Excitement played a huge role in getting back the House. She was part of that wave, even if she was just a small part. We won because of her and plenty of other exciting young Democrats, including some moderates. Luckily, we don't have to choose -- we can have them all, and we can have Pelosi too... and AOC has been on record, many times, supporting Pelosi. Occasional disagreements haven't marred that support at all.
Donald Trump played a huge part in us taking back the house, 2018 was alargely a reaction to 2016. He also played a huge part in radicals like AOC getting elected. Hopefully we will discard politicians like her when we get rid of Trump. We don't need politicians like AOC acting like they are the face of the party.

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She'd probably do about the same as moderates (like Crowley) would do in her district -- not so well. So what? Why is this notable? Obama probably wouldn't have won a Senate race in Missouri or Arizona. But despite fears that he was radical, unelectable, or extreme, he turned out to be a fantastic candidate. Right now AOC is just a rep, and we don't have to worry about such things for her at all. Maybe one day she'll run for Senate or Governor of NY -- and there's a great chance she'll win. We can talk about your worries again on that day.
I hope that day never comes.

BTW Crowley isn't really moderate by almost any standard. He is probably somewhere to the left of this board.

But crowley doesn't go around threatening to primary his more moderate fellow democrats in an effort to try and remake the party in his own image. He understand that we win our majorities in swing districts with candidates that are significantly closer to the center than he is.

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Oh no! Criticism against moderates! How horrible! Almost like a Democrat criticizing progressives like AOC... I'm sure that would never happen, and you'd be very angry about that, right?
We don't need progressives like AOC to win any district in the country. Not a single one. We can make do with progressives like Crowley and Pelosi. We need moderates to win in many of them.
  #161  
Old 01-12-2020, 05:13 PM
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It was serendipitous but it was never her intent to make Virginia more blue.
Strange bedfellows indeed! Glad to see you on the AOC train. Good for you!

Snipping the rest of the silliness, as we're getting far off topic. I'm glad energetic young and talented progressives like her are part of the party. I like the big tent, with her and moderates welcome. Hopefully we'll maintain this big tent party with a diverse coalition. Hopefully you won't succeed in your efforts to boot, muzzle, or minimize voices you don't like in the party.
  #162  
Old 01-12-2020, 06:31 PM
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I would not describe her as smart (she's not stupid) and certainly not good on policy.
Not smart? "The MIT Lincoln Laboratory named the asteroid 23238 Ocasio-Cortez after her when she was a senior in high school in recognition of her second-place finish in the 2007 Intel International Science and Engineering Fair.[20][21] Ocasio-Cortez was named the 2017 National Hispanic Institute Person of the Year by Ernesto Nieto.[9]" (The latter was before her election to Congress.)

How not-smart must one be, majoring in international relations and economics at Boston University, to graduate cum laude? How not-smart must a novice be to defeat a long-term incumbent? No, she's not merely clever, nor stupid, and those portraying her as such are not just wrong, but worse. Fear gleams in their eyes. She's dangerous.

Last edited by RioRico; 01-12-2020 at 06:32 PM.
  #163  
Old 01-13-2020, 12:17 AM
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...


I would not describe her as smart (she's not stupid) and certainly not good on policy.
If I were to describe her I would say that she is charismatic, well spoken and photogenic. Perhaps she just needs better advisors that will prevent her from making such embarrassing mistakes and help her navigate a course that doesn't involve being a perpetual minority....
She is smart- But she is inexperienced and brash. She was putting her foot in her mouth often, until advisors pointed out that ANYTHING she got wrong would be all over the news.
  #164  
Old 01-13-2020, 01:23 AM
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Have you not heard her going after moderate Democrats. She thinks the Democratic party's tent is too big.
Suggesting the D's move left is not the same as "attacking" fellow Democrats. But I really do NOT follow personality politics. Tell me her most egregious attack and I'll probably agree with you. But I am NOT going to go Googling for it myself.

As for the D tent being too big, that agrees with an article I linked to in a recent thread. Should the D's tailor their appeal to the Left or to the Center? That's the big dilemma now; I do NOT know the answer.


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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
I'm going off of census numbers. She won her seat with 15,000 total votes. There are 700,000 people in her district. It's the only number I saw on this site https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Yo...ional_district

Do you have better numbers you would like to use?
According to Wikipedia (starting with the same link as you), she got 16,898 votes in the primary. Is that number wrong? Does 16,898 round to 17,000 or does it round to 15,000? It may seem nit-picky to quibble about a smallish error here, but if your argument is sound, why do you need to fudge the numbers?

AOC trounced Pappas in the general, but you emphasize the truism that low-turnout off-year primaries have low turnout. You didn't mention that the blue sky is colored sky-blue; would that help your argument?
  #165  
Old 01-13-2020, 10:59 AM
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Hopefully we'll maintain this big tent party with a diverse coalition. Hopefully you won't succeed in your efforts to boot, muzzle, or minimize voices you don't like in the party.
You realize that this is exactly what she is trying to do right?

She thinks the tent is too big.
She doesn't want a lot of diversity of opinion, she wants the party to look more like her.
She wants to boot incumbent democrats by primarying them.

She is bad for the party. She gains us no new voters and turns off some current voters.
  #166  
Old 01-13-2020, 11:07 AM
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Not smart? "The MIT Lincoln Laboratory named the asteroid 23238 Ocasio-Cortez after her when she was a senior in high school in recognition of her second-place finish in the 2007 Intel International Science and Engineering Fair.[20][21] Ocasio-Cortez was named the 2017 National Hispanic Institute Person of the Year by Ernesto Nieto.[9]" (The latter was before her election to Congress.)

How not-smart must one be, majoring in international relations and economics at Boston University, to graduate cum laude? How not-smart must a novice be to defeat a long-term incumbent? No, she's not merely clever, nor stupid, and those portraying her as such are not just wrong, but worse. Fear gleams in their eyes. She's dangerous.
I agree she is dangerous. Mostly to the Democrats.

She won a science fair. Good for her. Like I said, she's not stupid.

She graduated cum laude from Boston University. It proves she's not stupid but I don't think it proves she's smart or some sort of rare intellect that we must preserve.

Like I said, she's not stupid but she's not Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton.

She doesn't even have the "cleverness" and craftiness with decades of experience like Nancy Pelosi. She may develop into that one day but right now she is not.

Charismatic, well spoken and photogenic is how I would describe her. She might make a good politician one day if she can avoid making herself irrelevant with her own ignorance.
  #167  
Old 01-13-2020, 11:19 AM
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Suggesting the D's move left is not the same as "attacking" fellow Democrats. But I really do NOT follow personality politics. Tell me her most egregious attack and I'll probably agree with you. But I am NOT going to go Googling for it myself.
https://news.yahoo.com/aoc-threatens...133644548.html

This was pretty early in her term. There are other examples of her going after moderates.

Quote:
As for the D tent being too big, that agrees with an article I linked to in a recent thread. Should the D's tailor their appeal to the Left or to the Center? That's the big dilemma now; I do NOT know the answer.
I think the best way to approach political questions is with politics in mind. Would moving to the left win us more swing states or swing districts?

Would moving towards the center (at least on some issues) win us more swing states or more swing districts?

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According to Wikipedia (starting with the same link as you), she got 16,898 votes in the primary. Is that number wrong? Does 16,898 round to 17,000 or does it round to 15,000? It may seem nit-picky to quibble about a smallish error here, but if your argument is sound, why do you need to fudge the numbers?
Yes, I think it is nitpicky. I also said she won by 5000 votes when she only won by 4000 votes. Was I trying to fudge the numbers there too?

Also the numbers within the article itself says:"On June 26, 2018, Ocasio-Cortez received 57.13% of the vote (15,897) to Joe Crowley's 42.5% (11,761), defeating the 10-term incumbent by almost 15 percentage points"

I see that there is a chart later on that shows more votes like you say.

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AOC trounced Pappas in the general, but you emphasize the truism that low-turnout off-year primaries have low turnout. You didn't mention that the blue sky is colored sky-blue; would that help your argument?
The general election result is a foregone conclusion in that district.
  #168  
Old 01-13-2020, 01:38 PM
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You realize that this is exactly what she is trying to do right?

She thinks the tent is too big.
She doesn't want a lot of diversity of opinion, she wants the party to look more like her.
She wants to boot incumbent democrats by primarying them.

She is bad for the party. She gains us no new voters and turns off some current voters.
I don't think you're accurately describing her positions with nuance.

But I get that she wants to push the party left -- but that's her role as a very progressive Democrat. She should be trying to tilt the party left -- just like moderate Democrats should be trying to tilt the party towards the middle. "Primarying" is another way of actually testing these ideas. This is how politics and a political party should work -- not get-in-line obedience, but raucous and rowdy debate!

Good for her! The party will be stronger with energetic voices like hers, whether on the progressive side, the moderate side, or elsewhere (as long as those voices are not hateful and bigoted).

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 01-13-2020 at 01:39 PM.
  #169  
Old 01-14-2020, 10:58 AM
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I don't think you're accurately describing her positions with nuance.

But I get that she wants to push the party left -- but that's her role as a very progressive Democrat. She should be trying to tilt the party left -- just like moderate Democrats should be trying to tilt the party towards the middle. "Primarying" is another way of actually testing these ideas. This is how politics and a political party should work -- not get-in-line obedience, but raucous and rowdy debate!

Good for her! The party will be stronger with energetic voices like hers, whether on the progressive side, the moderate side, or elsewhere (as long as those voices are not hateful and bigoted).
I doubt we will agree on AOC in her current incarnation. She may mature someday to the point where I agree with you. I prefer progressives like Pelosi, Crowley was this brand of progressive.
  #170  
Old 01-14-2020, 11:30 AM
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I doubt we will agree on AOC in her current incarnation. She may mature someday to the point where I agree with you. I prefer progressives like Pelosi, Crowley was this brand of progressive.
I'm happy to have all these folks and more, and happy to have their energy and even their disagreements. It's a sign of a healthy party, and healthy debate, to have so much diversity of opinion within the party.
  #171  
Old Yesterday, 04:40 PM
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I'm happy to have all these folks and more, and happy to have their energy and even their disagreements. It's a sign of a healthy party, and healthy debate, to have so much diversity of opinion within the party.
I feel like the diversity of opinion is being narrowed in the Democratic party much as it was narrowed by the tea party in the Republican party. The Republicans came up with the term "RINO" Republican in name only and i thought how stupid can you be to push moderates out of your party. Then Democrats like AOC said "hold my beer"

Last edited by Damuri Ajashi; Yesterday at 04:40 PM.
  #172  
Old Yesterday, 04:45 PM
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I feel like the diversity of opinion is being narrowed in the Democratic party much as it was narrowed by the tea party in the Republican party. The Republicans came up with the term "RINO" Republican in name only and i thought how stupid can you be to push moderates out of your party. Then Democrats like AOC said "hold my beer"
I see no evidence that AOC is pushing anyone out of the party. Criticizing some moderates -- especially moderates in progressive districts -- is not pushing them out of the party. It's good to have this kind of debate within the party.

We'll see who's correct in the next few elections.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; Yesterday at 04:46 PM.
  #173  
Old Yesterday, 11:44 PM
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AFAICT, the first two paragraphs of that article "accuse" Ms. Ocasio-Cortez of taking the same side as Speaker Pelosi on the issue of Democratic infidelity.
Quote:
Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D., N.Y.) threatened her moderate colleagues during a Thursday Democratic caucus meeting, telling the lawmakers she plans to provide progressive activists searching for primary targets with a list of Democrats who work across the aisle.

Speaker Nancy Pelosi began the meeting by chastising the two dozen moderates who voted on Tuesday in favor of a Republican amendment to a gun control bill that requires gun retailers to report illegal immigrants who attempt to buy a gun.
The single sentence about AOC makes me think she was encouraging her D colleagues to remain faithful. Hardly the same as actually denouncing them publicly.


You call AOC "ignorant." Just to verify that we're speaking the same dialect of English, do you apply this term to Jim Inhofe, beginning his 25th year as a U.S. Senator, famous for disproving climate change with a snowball? Or Congressman Steve Stockman whose stupidity was even worse?

What about Donald J. Trump? Would you agree that every time he ad libs he shows more ignorance than all of AOC's ignorances added together?

We shouldn't discuss AOC's "ignorance" until we ascertain what "ignorance" means in your dialect.
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