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  #8401  
Old 07-21-2018, 11:38 AM
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Snowboarder Bo Snowboarder Bo is online now
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In case anyone is wondering and would like some stats: Florida Homicide Rate Increased After Passage of 'Stand Your Ground' Law, Study Finds:
Quote:
To see if they could find any measurable effects in the homicide rate after the law's passage, researchers from the University of Oxford looked at Florida homicide data at various times from 1999 to 2014. They then compared the rates with those in four control states (New Jersey, New York, Ohio and Virginia) with no "stand your ground" laws.

By examining data from a database run by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, researchers found that after the law was passed in Florida, homicides increased approximately 21 percent — from an average of 82 homicides per month from 1999 to October 2005 to 99 homicides per month from October 2005 to 2014.

Additionally, they found the rate of homicide by firearm went up almost 41 percent, from a mean of 49 homicides per month to 69 during those periods.

Researchers found no similar increases in the four control states.
ETA: Evaluating the Impact of Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” Self-defense Law on Homicide and Suicide by Firearm: An Interrupted Time Series Study is a direct link to the study itself.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 07-21-2018 at 11:40 AM.
  #8402  
Old 07-21-2018, 11:48 AM
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Gee, what a surprise. Enabling assholes leads to more assholish behavior. Who would've thunk it?
  #8403  
Old 07-21-2018, 12:19 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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Originally Posted by silenus View Post
Gee, what a surprise. Enabling assholes leads to more assholish behavior. Who would've thunk it?
I can see how, if you are worried about being beaten up, you would not initiate or escalate a confrontation.

But if you have a gun, and know that you are allowed to kill anyone you perceive to be threatening, then initiating and escalating confrontations becomes simply a way to get an excuse to kill someone.
  #8404  
Old 07-21-2018, 12:37 PM
SaneBill SaneBill is offline
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And none of these cases will ever be premeditated set-ups...
  #8405  
Old 07-21-2018, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Fear Itself View Post
Two men argue over a parking space. One pushes the other to the ground, who responds by drawing a gun and killing the other man. Stand your ground invoked, no charges filed.
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Originally Posted by Fear Itself View Post
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Originally Posted by asahi View Post
The laws in states like Florid allow CCW permit holders (usually white males) to go play cop, initiate a heated confrontation to the point where people feel like coming to blows, and then pull out a gun and claim self defense. The gunman knew he was escalating the situation. He knew there was a pretty good chance he was going to get into a fight with someone, and he assumed that whenever he did, he could legally kill them. And it seems he assumed correctly. Shades of George Zimmerman.
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
Sounds legit to me. The definition of a "good guy with a gun" is the guy that is still standing when the shooting stops.
The waitress in Savannah, GA who was recently assaulted and then took down her assailant could likely have shot and killed the man and faced no criminal charges had this happened in Florida and had Miss Holden had a gun nearby. I am having a hard time finding myself in agreement that this is a valid response and outcome for this crime, but it seems that at least in Florida, that's how it is.

I hope I'm not alone in saying that the current state of our society, in many aspects, is quite a bit different than how I would prefer.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 07-21-2018 at 01:05 PM.
  #8406  
Old 07-21-2018, 02:56 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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Man shoots 3 people, killing one. Police are unable to catch him, fortunately, one of the victims, after being shot in the chest, manages to return fire.

Good on the good guy with the gun to stop the bad guy with the gun, but had the bad guy been stopped from having a gun, there'd be one less innocent dead victim, 2 less innocent wounded victims, and one less dead assailant.

Some would call this positive news for guns, at the very best and most generous, I would call it a draw. One dead victim, one dead assailant, 2 injured victims using scarce medical resources.

Guns did more harm than good in that scenario, hard to see otherwise.
  #8407  
Old 07-21-2018, 03:48 PM
SaneBill SaneBill is offline
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So by this logic it was a positive gun news story when Stephen Paddock was shot dead in Las Vegas...
  #8408  
Old 07-21-2018, 05:16 PM
eschereal eschereal is offline
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Originally Posted by SaneBill View Post
So by this logic it was a positive gun news story when Stephen Paddock was shot dead in Las Vegas...
Was that a bad guy with a gun stopping a bad guy with a gun? Or a bad guy transforming momentarily into a good guy in order to stop the bad guy who was actually now the good guy?

Or can we just blame that whole thing on bad pharma?
  #8409  
Old 07-22-2018, 05:12 AM
SaneBill SaneBill is offline
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Oh, sorry, I didn't know there had to be a good guy involved - after all it's not a positive good guy news.

All I'm saying is that in Las Vegas a bad guy was shot dead - with a gun, you see. Apparently a bad guy shot dead is enough for some people to fit the bill. All collateral damage is just a cheap price for a possibility that a bad guy gets shot down by somebody. Also notice that the shooter is defined as a 'good guy' only because he shoots the bad guy - before that he might have been known as a town drunk, village idiot or wife-beater. Not exactly your poster boy for a good guy, right ? Indeed, previously he might have been known as a lot worse person than the bad guy ( who just had a momentarily nervous breakdown and would've been submitted to treatment by sympathetic people, only he happened to own a gun because he was a real American ). And so on...

How else they can explain aforementioned Spring Hill case being a positive gun news?
( For me positive gun news would be somebody armed stopping a bad guy before he does any damage. )


( I had to use Google translate for some parts - but I think you get what I'm saying... )
  #8410  
Old 07-22-2018, 07:27 AM
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Americans' freedom to possess guns, in and of itself, makes it a culture that is more prone to violence. A person who walks about town carrying a loaded firearm is presumably prepared to use it in any sort of confrontation, which makes him more confident about confronting people, and makes it more likely that a simple argument that easily be could deescalated with the right choice of words or behavior instead turns into a fatal encounter. This asshole, just like Zimmerman, never had to confront anyone; he could have called the police. He could have taken a picture of the license plate and sent it to the police. He could have taken a picture of the license plate and the offenders and embarrassed them on social media. Instead, he initiated a hostile confrontation, and this was the outcome that he probably predicted, and I suspect that this is what he wanted. He didn't seem to give it much thought to killing a man, so it's hard to believe that he didn't somehow have a desire to do so.

Last edited by asahi; 07-22-2018 at 07:28 AM.
  #8411  
Old 07-22-2018, 08:04 AM
SaneBill SaneBill is offline
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Yes, it is a perfect plan for any mob hit-man. Instigate an argument, wait until the other guy pushes you, then kill him = self-defense, no charges.

You've all heard how New York alone had more murders at the time than the whole wild west combined. I'd bet that it's because so many obvious murders were written off as self-defense.
  #8412  
Old 07-22-2018, 08:31 AM
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https://www.tampabay.com/news/public...pace_170174041

Quote:
At the convenience store Friday, customers filed in and out, buying cigarettes, lottery tickets and sodas, many of them familiar with details of the shooting. Mustafa Hashen, a clerk and witness, said both men were regulars.

It wasn’t the first time he saw Drejka in a fight with another customer. A couple of months back, Rick Kelly stopped by the store, parking his tanker truck in the same handicap spot.

The details to Thursday’s incident are similar: Drejka walking around the truck checking for decals, then confronting Kelly, 31, about why he parked there. The fight escalated, and Drejka threatened to shoot him, Kelly said.

"It’s a repeat. It happened to me the first time. The second time it’s happening, someone’s life got taken," Kelly said. "He provoked that."
Premeditation.

But under Florida law, as long as you aren't the one escalating a heated verbal confrontation into a physical one, you can claim you were 'afraid' and then pull out a concealed firearm and end someone's life.

This law is all kinds of fucked up. Even the Sheriff seems to think so.
  #8413  
Old 07-22-2018, 06:18 PM
ElvisL1ves ElvisL1ves is offline
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Definition of a Good Guy with a Gun:

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When it comes to gun ownership, Arizona state Senate candidate Bobby Wilson says it’s important to have a “good guy with a gun” in dangerous situations.

Wilson pointed to a time in 1963 when he said he had to be such a guy — against his own mother.
...
The Republican candidate told the Arizona Republic his mother, Lavonne, came into his room and began to shoot at him. At one point, he said she swung her gun around, striking his 17-year-old sister, Judy, in the back of her head. Judy died due to the impact to her head, Wilson said, recalling an autopsy report.
...
At first, Wilson confessed to the murders but later said he had no memory of the night.

While on trial, Wilson said he suffered from amnesia. A jury ruled he was “not capable of proceeding to trial and making a rational defense,” and the case was suspended.
...
Reports in the local paper at the time, the Choctaw County Weekly, contradicted Wilson’s account of the events. The bodies of Wilson’s mother and sister were found “in a ‘perfectly relaxed’ position, indicating they died in their sleep from suffocation,” the paper said, according to the Arizona Republic.
And that's the Fox version of the story.

Defensive Gun Use with 2 deaths.
  #8414  
Old 07-22-2018, 11:11 PM
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BTW, apparently NRA spokeswoman Dana Loesch removed all references to the NRA on her Twitter account this weekend.

https://twitter.com/DLoesch?s=09
  #8415  
Old 07-23-2018, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by asahi View Post
https://www.tampabay.com/news/public...pace_170174041

Premeditation.

But under Florida law, as long as you aren't the one escalating a heated verbal confrontation into a physical one, you can claim you were 'afraid' and then pull out a concealed firearm and end someone's life.
In any of the libtard gun-grabbing states, these courageous white men could have been arrested for standing their ground.

I think these stories belong in the MPSIMS "My wonderful gun makes my cock so hard I don't even need a sex doll" thread.
  #8416  
Old 07-23-2018, 10:32 AM
Defensive Indifference Defensive Indifference is offline
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BTW, apparently NRA spokeswoman Dana Loesch removed all references to the NRA on her Twitter account this weekend.

https://twitter.com/DLoesch?s=09
I am NOT defending Loesch in any way, but she apparently removed the NRA tag from her bio in 2017. Looking at captures on the Wayback machine, it looks like she removed the tag between 11/9/17 and 11/14/17. I'm not sure it means much since AFAICT she has still acted as a spokesperson since then.

I really wish she and others were running scared from the NRA because it's about to be revealed as a Russian front. But that doesn't appear to be the case.

Yet.
  #8417  
Old 07-23-2018, 10:52 AM
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I looked at the WB machine and wasn't able to get a previous review of her twitter profile. Appreciate the clarification and correction!
  #8418  
Old 07-23-2018, 11:23 AM
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This law is all kinds of fucked up. Even the Sheriff seems to think so.
Even so the sheriff could certainly have arrested the shooter and let the courts sort it out. Instead he wouldn't lift a finger.
  #8419  
Old 07-23-2018, 12:54 PM
Really Not All That Bright Really Not All That Bright is offline
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Originally Posted by CookingWithGas View Post
Even so the sheriff could certainly have arrested the shooter and let the courts sort it out. Instead he wouldn't lift a finger.
He's not allowed to. The 2017 SYG expansion makes it very, very difficult for law enforcement to charge or even arrest anyone with a plausible SYG defense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Florida Statutes
776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use or threatened use of force.—
(1) A person who uses or threatens to use force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in such conduct and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use or threatened use of such force by the person, personal representative, or heirs of the person against whom the force was used or threatened, unless the person against whom force was used or threatened is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using or threatening to use force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use or threatened use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using or threatening to use force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used or threatened was unlawful.
(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).
(4) In a criminal prosecution, once a prima facie claim of self-defense immunity from criminal prosecution has been raised by the defendant at a pretrial immunity hearing, the burden of proof by clear and convincing evidence is on the party seeking to overcome the immunity from criminal prosecution provided in subsection (1).

Last edited by Really Not All That Bright; 07-23-2018 at 12:54 PM.
  #8420  
Old 07-23-2018, 01:32 PM
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How can that possibly be? How can they investigate the use or threatened use of force if the guy is dead and only the shooter can provide information?
  #8421  
Old 07-23-2018, 02:12 PM
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Ask Trayvon Martin.
  #8422  
Old 07-23-2018, 02:34 PM
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Ask Trayvon Martin.
Well, at least there was a trial and such for that case.
  #8423  
Old 07-23-2018, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Really Not All That Bright View Post
He's not allowed to. The 2017 SYG expansion makes it very, very difficult for law enforcement to charge or even arrest anyone with a plausible SYG defense.
I am stunned that all the person has to do is claim self-defense.
  #8424  
Old 07-23-2018, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Really Not All That Bright View Post
He's not allowed to. The 2017 SYG expansion makes it very, very difficult for law enforcement to charge or even arrest anyone with a plausible SYG defense.
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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
How can that possibly be? How can they investigate the use or threatened use of force if the guy is dead and only the shooter can provide information?
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Originally Posted by CookingWithGas View Post
I am stunned that all the person has to do is claim self-defense.
It took over 2 decades of dedicated journalistic work combined with non-stop lobbying and a Department of Justice review before Clark County, where Las Vegas is located, changed the laws so that a police shooting didn't result in a coroner's inquest looking into the matter, wherein any and all police officers could say "I thought maybe he might have possibly become a danger to someone at some later time, so I shot him" and they were legally absolved of any criminality.

Now we have a a different process, with more citizen involvement and more transparency, so now we all KNOW the fix is in every time a cop says the same thing and walks, no matter what the circumstances were.

Florida's SYG law and most Castle Doctrine laws that I know of are more-or-less the same as that.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 07-23-2018 at 02:51 PM.
  #8425  
Old 07-23-2018, 03:54 PM
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Gee, what a surprise. Enabling assholes leads to more assholish behavior. Who would've thunk it?
Inconceivable!
  #8426  
Old 07-23-2018, 03:58 PM
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I am NOT defending Loesch in any way, but she apparently removed the NRA tag from her bio in 2017. Looking at captures on the Wayback machine, it looks like she removed the tag between 11/9/17 and 11/14/17. I'm not sure it means much since AFAICT she has still acted as a spokesperson since then.

I really wish she and others were running scared from the NRA because it's about to be revealed as a Russian front. But that doesn't appear to be the case.

Yet.
Yet. But I bet Meuller knows a hell of a lot about the Russsians and the Russian money, which was then funneled from the NRA into political campaigns - and not JUST Trump's.
  #8427  
Old 07-23-2018, 04:13 PM
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I am stunned that all the person has to do is claim self-defense.
I'm not an attorney, but if my understanding of Florida's statute (and its application) is correct, the use of deadly force is predicated on a "reasonable" fear of great bodily harm. Note that the defendant doesn't have to demonstrate that he was in fear for his life, only that he was in fear of sustaining great bodily harm.
I don't think the Sheriff's office necessarily likes having to let this guy go, but shoving someone to the concrete in a parking lot with cars moving about in different directions is arguably reason enough to claim that he feared great bodily harm. Moreover, the law immunizes the shooter from prosecution if there's even a half-ass claim that can be backed up. In this case, the video defends the account of the shooter, and as shitty as it is, it doesn't necessarily matter that the shooter was talking shit to the dead man's girlfriend - the law allows a man to talk all the shit he wants unless it can be established that he was using threatening language, which a video can't establish. Had he brandished a weapon, drawn back his fist, or made explicit threats in front of multiple witnesses, maybe it's a different story.

It probably gets trickier when there's less evidence to support a claim of self defense, and I don't think a killer can just claim he was afraid. He has to establish a reason for his fear. The statute still requires justification for homicide. The local police and DA would want to know what constitutes such justification, without which, they would probably start a criminal investigation working toward a possible indictment, provided there's enough evidence. Thus, if person A kills person B, then law enforcement and the prosecutor would want an explanation from person A. They probably don't just take his word for it. If all they have is his word and they have reason to doubt his story, then they'd probably at least consider taking the case to trial. Still, the accused enjoys the presumption of innocence beyond all reasonable doubt, which is where justice could still get derailed.
  #8428  
Old 07-25-2018, 02:16 PM
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"Ground Rules: “Stand your ground” laws give white citizens the kind of impunity that’s usually reserved for police."

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...-impunity.html

Quote:
Last Thursday, 28-year-old Markeis McGlockton, who is black, was killed outside a convenience store in Clearwater, Florida. Surveillance video shows McGlockton, his girlfriend Britany Jacobs, and their three children pulling into a handicapped parking space in front of the store. While McGlockton was in the store with his 5-year-old son, a man later identified as 47-year-old Michael Drejka, who is white, went up to the car to argue with Jacobs. Seeing the scene, McGlockton walked over and shoved Drejka to the ground. Drejka pulled out a gun, and as McGlockton backed away, Drejka fired. McGlockton staggered back into the store, where he collapsed. He died at the hospital.

This wasn’t the first time Drejka confronted someone over the parking space. “He basically threatened to shoot me that day, too,” said one regular customer to the store, who had a similar experience with the shooter. Police declined to arrest Drejka—who said he feared for his life—and on Monday, the Pinellas County Sheriff’s Office said it would not press charges, citing Florida’s “stand your ground” law.
http://abc7ny.com/stand-your-ground-...death/3810856/

Quote:
The incident in Clearwater was caught on surveillance camera. Another man said he had the same argument with Drejka a month ago.

"He flipped out saying he would shoot me," Rich Kelly told WFTS. "So when I left, he called the owner of my company stating he was going to kill me."

Kelly said the man was upset he parked in a handicapped space.

Last edited by Acsenray; 07-25-2018 at 02:18 PM.
  #8429  
Old 07-25-2018, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
"Ground Rules: “Stand your ground” laws give white citizens the kind of impunity that’s usually reserved for police."

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...-impunity.html



http://abc7ny.com/stand-your-ground-...death/3810856/
This Drejka needs to be put down before he does it again, and he WILL.

Last edited by SteveG1; 07-25-2018 at 02:40 PM.
  #8430  
Old 08-01-2018, 06:21 PM
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And in other news, guns killed Hitler, Mussolini, and Tojo (or at least caused them to be killed.)

Top that.
  #8431  
Old 08-01-2018, 06:31 PM
Bryan Ekers Bryan Ekers is offline
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I don't know why you guys are on his case, all he was doing was defending the rights of the handicapped.
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  #8432  
Old 08-03-2018, 12:54 PM
Defensive Indifference Defensive Indifference is offline
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The NRA is suing New York State for what it calls a "blacklisting campaign" that has resulted in the NRA being unable to get media liability insurance. Without this insurance, the NRA says, it has been unable to “maintain its physical premises, convene off-site meetings and events, operate educational programs,” and “hold rallies, conventions, and assemblies.” According to financial documents, the NRA overspent by $46 million in 2016.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/nra-sa...a=twitter_page

I don't know what "media liability insurance is" nor how New York State could prevent the NRA from getting it. Hopefully someone can drop in to explain it. The NRA claims their existence is threatened, but then, the NRA is always claiming that they or gun owners are in existential danger at all times, so who knows? I guess if all else fails, the NRA could just go to their benefactors in Russia for more cash. Oh, wait, Mueller is turning off the spigot there. That's just a damned shame. Womp womp. My thoughts and prayers are with almost anyone other than the NRA.

Last edited by Defensive Indifference; 08-03-2018 at 12:56 PM.
  #8433  
Old 08-03-2018, 12:56 PM
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They should just raise their fees. Guns owners will pay any amount to make sure that government doesn't come break down their doors and confiscate their guns!
  #8434  
Old 08-03-2018, 02:11 PM
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Media Liability Insurance is pretty much what it sounds like: an insurance policy which covers the TV network, the venue, the CD manufacturer, etc, in the event of damages resulting from the program put on by the policy owner (in this case, the NRA).

http://m.acc.com/legalresources/quickcounsel/pcmli.cfm?

So, to use an example, the NRA buys a TV ad, "defend your 2nd amendment rights". Tommy Lottacrazy sees this ad, shoots up an anti-NRA protest, arguing he got this idea from the ad. With a MLI policy, the TV station/network is covered* in case the victims decide to sue the TV channel for airing an inflammatory commercial.

However, you just don't buy a general MLI which covers all events (like a homeowners or general liability policy) these things are sold... and priced... on a case-by-case basis. Usually it's a routine process, the cost rather negligible and included in the cost of ad creation and placement. Or, in this case, venue selection.

However, with the long sequence of shootings, these policies are becoming more expensive for the NRA to get... a $3,000** policy might become rated merely because it's the NRA which is requesting it, so it is now $6,000, $30,000, more. Or, as the article states, the insurance company refuses to sell a policy to the NRA at any price, judging the risk of payout to be too high.

It sounds like they're being squeezed at many ends:

1. They sold insurance policies to gun purchasers covering them for court costs in the event the purchaser committed a crime. (As a general rule, you can't buy insurance which has as its stated goal protecting you financially from intentionally breaking the law. It may even be arguable that the only purpose for buying such a policy is that the purchaser intends to break the law, which is a big no-no.)
2. They can't get general liability any more, which is a big problem for any organization.
3. They can't even get MLI to protect broadcasters who run their programs and/or commercials as they've been deemed, in my opinion, too high-risk.

The $46 million loss, well, that's their problem. Perhaps exacerbated by their insurance woes, but if they sponsored gun shows w/o the necessary insurance, that's their tough shit.

*To the limits expressed by the policy. They are on the hook for judgements which go beyond the policy benefit amount.

** Numbers are for illustrative purposes and do not reflect actual pricing.

Last edited by JohnT; 08-03-2018 at 02:14 PM.
  #8435  
Old 08-03-2018, 04:37 PM
Defensive Indifference Defensive Indifference is offline
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Thanks JohnT! Very clear and helpful. I'm gonna guess you work in the insurance industry?

So, how wold New York State blacklist them, assuming for the sake of argument that they wanted to? What levers does the state have to get insurance companies to either stop writing policies or price the NRA out?

Last edited by Defensive Indifference; 08-03-2018 at 04:38 PM.
  #8436  
Old 08-03-2018, 05:08 PM
Project Patahhh Project Patahhh is offline
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So does this mean the NRA will finally die? I know that reality is never so kind, but one can dream...
  #8437  
Old 08-03-2018, 05:33 PM
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Insurance is regulated by the States... 50 insurance departments in all... so NYS has all the power they need to investigate how the NRA funds and sells policies (if that is what they are doing, then they are likely doing it under what is known as an "affinity" program.)

As far as pricing is concerned, on these specialty products that is left up to the companies. The insurance departments concern themselves mostly with licensing, financial stability, fraud and deceptive sales practices, and commission payouts.

If the NRA is rated ("rated" essentially means "at increased risk") on a policy, then they pay more. If the risk is too big, then they won't get insurance*. No one is guaranteed to be covered on any policy (other than health) and insurance companies have the right to turn down an offer of premium if they so decide.

Do note most of my knowledge of the NRA's complaint comes from the RS article. Further reading shows the NRA is claiming the state pressured the insurers and other financial services companies to stop doing business with the NRA.

*For example, if you want a million dollar term life insurance policy at the age of 95, most companies (if not all) will refuse to insure you, and if they do, the annual premium will easily be in the six-figures.

Last edited by JohnT; 08-03-2018 at 05:35 PM.
  #8438  
Old 08-03-2018, 09:37 PM
Defensive Indifference Defensive Indifference is offline
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Thanks again, JohnT. Very helpful!
  #8439  
Old 08-04-2018, 10:55 AM
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Welcome, again. Please note, I am not a regulatory expert.

Also, IMHO, rumors of the NRA's impending financial doom are greatly exaggerated.
  #8440  
Old 08-04-2018, 11:12 AM
Railer13 Railer13 is offline
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Originally Posted by JohnT View Post
Welcome, again. Please note, I am not a regulatory expert.

Also, IMHO, rumors of the NRA's impending financial doom are greatly exaggerated.
Agreed. I think it's a thinly-veiled request for more and larger donations.
  #8441  
Old 08-11-2018, 05:10 AM
Fear Itself Fear Itself is offline
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Shooting assault rifles into the air catches on as the latest thing to do on a Saturday night.
Quote:
St. Louis Police Chief John Hayden says "cruising" has been around for as long as there have been cars and people who want to show them off and interact with others.

"But what's new is the actual firing of guns," he told reporters Friday. "We're going to have some increased enforcement there simply because many of the persons involved are starting to carry firearms openly. So this is what I'm going to refer to as 'armed cruising' and it's a cause for concern."
Oh, but open carry is a god-given right in the state of Ohio. Can't do anything about it until some jackass starts popping off a few rounds at a crowded intersection.
  #8442  
Old 08-11-2018, 09:56 AM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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A story of a law abiding gun owner, up until he wasn't.

Quote:
Police took Koller in for questioning. They said he was read his Miranda rights and asked to talk to detectives about what happened.

"I snapped and that's all there is to it," Koller told police.

Detectives asked Koller if he wanted to explain further. He declined.

"I'm crazy. Just lock me up," Koller said to the police at one point during the questioning, according to the report.
I really debated putting this in the positive gun news story thread, because in the end, it really is.

This was in florida, and there were no witnesses to the altercation and lead up to the murder. He very well could have claimed self defense under florida's stand your ground laws, and got off scott-free.

Instead, he accepted the responsibility of what he had done, and is willing to face the consequences of ending another human's life, maybe it's just because he's from Ohio, so is not used to having legalized murder.

So, pretty stand up guy, except, of course, for the murdery bit.
  #8443  
Old 08-11-2018, 11:03 AM
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Going back to the Stand Your Ground law, it really is outrageous how Florida essentially makes manslaughter almost legal.

I don't care that Drejka was shoved to the ground; that tends to happen when stand inches away from someone's wife and child and shout at them over parking in a handicapped lot.

"Yeah, but it's not a crime to shout at someone"

True, it's not but that's missing the point.

When someone walks around in possession of a deadly weapon, they automatically have an even greater responsibility to act even more judiciously than they otherwise would. The law may not say that, but common sense does. It's the same logic that requires nations with nuclear weapons to behave even more cautiously and judiciously in their interactions with others and their application of force than those without them.

I don't even have a problem with "standing one's ground" in a variety of circumstances. If someone has a fit of road rage while you're stopped at an intersection, you don't have a duty to retreat. But when someone initiates a hostile encounter, however right they might be, they lose the right to stand their ground.
  #8444  
Old 08-11-2018, 11:22 AM
eschereal eschereal is offline
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Originally Posted by asahi View Post
… "Yeah, but it's not a crime to shout at someone" …
I am not so sure. Initiating and persisting in unwanted contact may be classified as “assault”, which is, at the very least, a misdemeanor. If the other person feels threatened, you might get charged with something like menacing. Yelling at someone and not giving them the opportunity to get away from you puts you on the wrong side of the situation.

Quote:
… when someone initiates a hostile encounter, however right they might be, they lose the right to stand their ground.
Should, anyway. Florida law does not seem very good at applying/enforcing that principle.
  #8445  
Old 08-13-2018, 12:01 PM
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manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Finally, that Florida shooter is getting charged with manslaughter
  #8446  
Old 08-13-2018, 01:59 PM
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Jack Batty Jack Batty is offline
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I just saw that on Bing news. Good. I can't help but think how similar this incident may have been to the Martin/Zimmerman affair. Aggressor with gun thinks he has some authority to go after a perceived law-breaker, aggressor gets roughed up for his trouble and aggressor decides to solve the problem he started with his gun. Sounds damn similar, if you ask me.
  #8447  
Old 08-13-2018, 02:21 PM
JRDelirious JRDelirious is offline
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Stupid Gun news of the day...

IIRC Florida SYG as it has been written and applied so far has had complaints about fuzziness in the case of the person who initiates a confrontation — basically a matter of what does or does not constitute provoking the threat.

Last edited by JRDelirious; 08-13-2018 at 02:22 PM.
  #8448  
Old 08-13-2018, 05:28 PM
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Snowboarder Bo Snowboarder Bo is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fear Itself View Post
Two men argue over a parking space. One pushes the other to the ground, who responds by drawing a gun and killing the other man. Stand your ground invoked, no charges filed.

Video here.
Manslaughter charge filed.
  #8449  
Old 08-13-2018, 09:41 PM
Bryan Ekers Bryan Ekers is offline
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Good. Florida takes a small step back from the brink. Of course they've been running full-tilt at the brink for quite some time, but every little bit helps.
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