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  #101  
Old 08-16-2018, 07:14 PM
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Wakinyan Wakinyan is offline
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Originally Posted by JB99 View Post
Your loss. I’m out.
/Intermission/

"Loss", you say. Yes... yes, you put the finger on it. The sadness is overwhelming. Here's this guy on the internet who post the link to the Youtube, and I won't click on it. And then this guy on the internet is "out". My goodness, I'm freaking out here. What can I do to get this internet boy to get "in" again? And what was this life changing clip I missed? I'll never know, I'll never know. Will I even sleep tonight?

JB, as a general tip of the day: Try words. Your own words. It is not easy to transform your thoughts and feelings into words (especially if you are not communicating in your native language as I do, but I'm working pretty hard with my posts to get my thoughts through, as intended, but I often fail), but if you want people to listen to you, to understand you, even agree with you, you will need to be able to transform what's going on inside of you into words, otherwise nobody will listen, or understand, what the hell you're trying to say. A YouTube clip does not compensate that lack of words. I'm here because I'm interested in your thoughts, not because of random YouTube clips. I want to share my thoughts, and I want you to share your thoughts, with words. That is, to me, the point of this message board.

/Intermission/

Anyways, in post 95, I was talking about meaning...
  #102  
Old Yesterday, 12:12 AM
Saint Cad Saint Cad is offline
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Originally Posted by MarvinKitFox View Post
Actually, no. It is not.
Then explain how the Russians could send probes to the Moon but not a manned mission.
Or explain how we can send probes to Mars but not a manned mission.

See this is more NASA propaganda. You response is to say "something" is true with no "evidence" and discount what your senses tell you to be true. It is the classic Appeal to Authority that NASA has thriven on for decades.
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  #103  
Old Yesterday, 12:55 AM
MEBuckner MEBuckner is offline
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Originally Posted by MarvinKitFox View Post
Ok, so....
You believe we DID go to the moon, just not manned missions?
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Originally Posted by Saint Cad View Post
Sending men to the Moon and having them survive is very different than sending an unmanned probe.
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Originally Posted by MarvinKitFox View Post
Actually, no. It is not.
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Originally Posted by Saint Cad View Post
Then explain how the Russians could send probes to the Moon but not a manned mission.
Or explain how we can send probes to Mars but not a manned mission.
As MarvinKitFox pointed out, a major difference between manned and unmanned probes is that mostly we don't care about unmanned probes getting to come back home, which is not so much the case with human space explorers. The Soviets only succeeded in sending something to the Moon and then getting at least part of it back home again in September 1970, over a year after they'd "lost the Moon Race" to the Americans. At that point, going to the extra risk of sending a cosmonaut or three would have been a pointless anticlimax, with no real geopolitical upside (either you kill one or more brave Soviet space explorers, or you get to come in second place in a two-player competition).

We can send probes to Mars; we have not yet succeeded in getting anything to Mars and then having it come back home. Rockets are almost entirely made of fuel (the contrast to a ship or a car or even a jet airplane is quite stark); with a round-trip mission, you've got to get your ship consisting of 85%+ propellant all the way to Mars AND the payload has got to effectively include another ship (presumably also consisting of 85%+ propellant) capable of traveling from Mars to Earth. In practice, for either a manned mission to and from Mars or an unmanned sample-return mission to and from Mars, in situ resource utilization will probably have to be used to generate the fuel for the return (especially for anything like a manned mission). That's something that's going to take careful planning and engineering to do, and no doubt some testing missions; and (again as was already pointed out) having something go wrong with your unmanned sample-return mission is expensive and maybe a bit embarrassing. Whereas losing a manned mission is a national tragedy.
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  #104  
Old Yesterday, 02:15 AM
MarvinKitFox MarvinKitFox is offline
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Originally Posted by Saint Cad View Post
Then explain how the Russians could send probes to the Moon but not a manned mission.
Or explain how we can send probes to Mars but not a manned mission.
Two interlinked reasons
1) The Soviet Union had less money. They spent a total of between 1/4 and 1/3 as much on the manned moon mission project, compared to the US.
2) Knowing they did not have the budget in money or time to develop a huge engine, they instead made the design choice to power their superheavy launcher with multiple smaller engines. While this makes engine design much easier, it introduces a multitude of control and reliability issues, which they were not up to solving in the time available.

In short, they made one bad design choice, and did not have the time and budget to fix it before the Americans managed to win the race. As there was very little intrinsic benefit to getting to the moon with 1960's tech, the race was all that mattered.

As for Mars manned missions, give it time. Or more accurately, give it the money needed. The primary slowdown is the cost of such a venture, as we don't have a handy cold war to fuel extreme spending with nationalistic fervor, like we had in the 1960's.

Last edited by MarvinKitFox; Yesterday at 02:18 AM.
  #105  
Old Yesterday, 02:17 AM
dtilque dtilque is offline
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Originally Posted by Rocky from Plano View Post
The same was true in the 60's and 70's also. We young kids knew everything and big government was always trying to control our lives and keep us down.
Unfortunately, the conspiracy theorists of those days turned out to be mostly right.
  #106  
Old Yesterday, 09:47 AM
StusBlues StusBlues is offline
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I agree that some of the more casual folks in this crowd are just doing it to make people mad at this point, and many others are honestly misinterpreting the evidence. That said, I think there is a darker shade to this among some of the Moon Landing denial crowd. Specifically, there is a contingent that uses this vast conspiracy to "prove" the existence of a vastly powerful conspirator. As the OP says:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaffan View Post

400,000 people working directly or indirectly for NASA would to have remained silent to this day. Other technologically advanced nations: UK, Soviet Union, Canada, Australia, etc. would have to have been in on it. In fact some of the transmissions were routed through Australia's Parkes Observatory radio telescope when the moon was facing the southern hemisphere.
Any group powerful enough to manipulate so many people in so many nations would be powerful enough to manipulate anything. Thus, if the moon landing is demonstrated to be fake, there must be some nigh-omnipotent cabal capable of controlling anything they like - economics, labor, media, science, history, you name it. In my perusal of social media, this line of thought often takes a turn to the anti-Semitic. The Rothchilds are a common target, usually mixed in with hairier one-world-government-Zionist ideology.

I'm not saying that every Moon Landing denier is an anti-Semitic conspiracy theorist, but many of them are. It's more pronounced with full-on Flat-Earthers, who are a subset of Moon Landing deniers.

You may think me paranoid, but the next time you run into a Moon Landing denier, ask them if they believe the Holocaust happened. Their answer may interest you.
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Last edited by StusBlues; Yesterday at 09:51 AM.
  #107  
Old Yesterday, 10:44 AM
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Atomic Alex Atomic Alex is offline
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Originally Posted by StusBlues View Post
You may think me paranoid, but the next time you run into a Moon Landing denier, ask them if they believe the Holocaust happened. Their answer may interest you.
Might this not be a factor of the 'bucket' mentality I mentioned above? ie: that a conspiracy theorist tends to believe every possible conspiracy that comes to their attention.

Not that that makes it much better, among other things it shows how easily manipulated they are, but perhaps its a factor of the psychology quirk (is 'illness' going too far?) behind the CT mentality rather than a reasoned examination of the evidence.

I've just started working in a small and close team with a colleague who is a CT, I think your quote "I'm scared, Sir" comes to mind when I think of outright asking him this.

Last edited by Atomic Alex; Yesterday at 10:45 AM.
  #108  
Old Yesterday, 02:49 PM
Jim Peebles Jim Peebles is offline
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Originally Posted by Atomic Alex View Post
Might this not be a factor of the 'bucket' mentality I mentioned above? ie: that a conspiracy theorist tends to believe every possible conspiracy that comes to their attention.

Not that that makes it much better, among other things it shows how easily manipulated they are, but perhaps its a factor of the psychology quirk (is 'illness' going too far?) behind the CT mentality rather than a reasoned examination of the evidence.

I've just started working in a small and close team with a colleague who is a CT, I think your quote "I'm scared, Sir" comes to mind when I think of outright asking him this.
CT vs not a CT is a false dichotomy. I find it weird that some people refuse to consider or discuss a conspiracy theory. Maybe I get bored too easily and I am too irreverant. But pondering the likelihood of a conspiracy theory can be an enjoyable way to pass the time. If I disagree with others discussing one, an easy example is Flat Earthers, I just note to myself "it is folly", and admit they may be having fun. I might even try to get in their mindset as a fun exercise.
  #109  
Old Yesterday, 05:39 PM
Voyager Voyager is online now
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Originally Posted by Jim Peebles View Post
CT vs not a CT is a false dichotomy. I find it weird that some people refuse to consider or discuss a conspiracy theory. Maybe I get bored too easily and I am too irreverant. But pondering the likelihood of a conspiracy theory can be an enjoyable way to pass the time. If I disagree with others discussing one, an easy example is Flat Earthers, I just note to myself "it is folly", and admit they may be having fun. I might even try to get in their mindset as a fun exercise.
CT or not CT, that is the question
Whether ‘tis nobler on the net to suffer
The posts and YouTubes of moronic chumps,
Or to fight them in a sea of flame wars,
And by opposing shame them? To block: to read
No more; and by ignore to say we end
The trolling of a thousand Internet twits
The web is full of, ‘tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish’d.
  #110  
Old Yesterday, 05:42 PM
Jim Peebles Jim Peebles is offline
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Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
CT or not CT, that is the question
Whether ‘tis nobler on the net to suffer
The posts and YouTubes of moronic chumps,
Or to fight them in a sea of flame wars,
And by opposing shame them? To block: to read
No more; and by ignore to say we end
The trolling of a thousand Internet twits
The web is full of, ‘tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish’d.
Brilliant.
  #111  
Old Yesterday, 05:53 PM
Tzigone Tzigone is offline
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Originally Posted by Jim Peebles View Post
CT vs not a CT is a false dichotomy. I find it weird that some people refuse to consider or discuss a conspiracy theory. Maybe I get bored too easily and I am too irreverant. But pondering the likelihood of a conspiracy theory can be an enjoyable way to pass the time. If I disagree with others discussing one, an easy example is Flat Earthers, I just note to myself "it is folly", and admit they may be having fun. I might even try to get in their mindset as a fun exercise.
I used to read conspiracies as a hobby. Unfortunately, besides it getting repetitive, there came a time when I perceived just how damaging some of them are. And once you think about the human cost, they aren't as fun as thought exercises (or even arguing exercises). Sandy Hook a prime example, but hardly the only one. Even many of the ones we think of as more harmless do have costs (like the harassment of astronauts or the distrust of government/historians/scientists or the general conspiracy rabbithole or the teaching children to ignore inconvenient facts).
  #112  
Old Yesterday, 06:07 PM
Baker Baker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
CT or not CT, that is the question
Whether ‘tis nobler on the net to suffer
The posts and YouTubes of moronic chumps,
Or to fight them in a sea of flame wars,
And by opposing shame them? To block: to read
No more; and by ignore to say we end
The trolling of a thousand Internet twits
The web is full of, ‘tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish’d.
God, I love "Shakespeare"!
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