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  #51  
Old 09-23-2018, 06:22 PM
Modesty Blaise Modesty Blaise is offline
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Forgive me for interrupting these important stories to say: Just when we’ve all been wondering if the SDMB still serves much of a purpose, this thread happens — likely to be remembered as one of its crowning achievements (I mean that sincerely). This kind of dialogue is happening in other venues, too, of course, but I think there’s something special about the community we’ve built up here over the years that makes it play out a bit differently here — for the better, perhaps.
I've been following the Kavanaugh thread and it's just...disgusting and disturbing.

Then I saw this thread this morning and it just lifted my spirits. And reading it is very inspiring.

Thank you all for participating.

And thank you j666 for starting it.
  #52  
Old 09-23-2018, 07:05 PM
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I was 16 and drunk. The 3 of them were in their 20s and at a high school party. It was 1978. It was my fault.
  #53  
Old 09-23-2018, 07:12 PM
SteveG1 SteveG1 is offline
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Do you think memories of exact dialogue and critical actions are perfect after 35 years? By either party? You're putting an awful lot of weight on something that may be marginally accurate.

Thank you for your polite and well-reasoned response. Unfortunately, this thread is indeed about it. What do you think started this argument, the man in the moon? I suggested that in that particular case, there may be extenuating and unknown circumstances due to many factors; someone who "did not report" may be subject to the same.
I don't have a perfect memory, but I do know for certain I never forced anyone to do anything. Ever.

It doesn't take perfect total recall. Either there was force, or there was not. There is nothing extenuating about force.
  #54  
Old 09-23-2018, 07:46 PM
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But I can certainly see, especially in the passage of time, a mild attempt at sexual persuasion morphed into a brutal attack in someone's mind, whether intentionally skewed or not. Memory isn't perfect and confabulation abounds.
Nobody's arguing that memory is perfect, but "morphing" a "mild attempt at sexual persuasion" into "a brutal attack" is not really typical of the ways memory malfunctions.

Do you remember, say, breaking a bone when you were a teenager? Do you think that your memory somehow "morphed" what was actually just a bruise into a broken bone? Do you think that's a likely explanation of many adults' recollections of breaking a bone when they were teenagers?

So, even if such a bizarre exaggeration could occur in somebody's memory occasionally, does it seem likely that all or most of the women (and men) who describe such experiences are suffering from such a drastic memory malfunction? Especially when you know how common such experiences have always been and still are in everyday life?

The claim is not that every single memory of sexual assault is 100% reliable in all its details. The claim is just that since sexual assault is so common, and is usually such a strongly negative experience for its victims, the probability that someone who describes such an experience is remembering it mostly accurately is much higher than the probability that they are massively deceived by a grossly distorted "morphing" of their memory.

That being the case, if your first reaction to somebody's describing such an experience is to suggest that their memory might be massively deceiving them, it not unreasonably calls your good faith into question.

Last edited by Kimstu; 09-23-2018 at 07:47 PM.
  #55  
Old 09-23-2018, 08:13 PM
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Because unless you were full on raped, nobody gave a shit. You were groped? Fondled? Catcalled about your ass and tits? You should be happy for the male attention. It's a compliment, you uptight bitch!
  #56  
Old 09-23-2018, 08:49 PM
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Tip of the hat for the witnesses in this thread. And sorry you've had to deal with that: it sounds pretty awful.
  #57  
Old 09-23-2018, 09:13 PM
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I used to carpool with three other women. We were talking about sexual assault one day and I mentioned reading that one in four women had been sexual molested.
When I hear statistics like those, I kind of... hope that is true. Not the "1 in 4 have been molested", but the "3 in 4 have not". My hope is that we'll keep growing this side of the equation.

And I sometimes wonder: if a person has been attacked repeatedly, if you're one of us who apparently have a big "grab me" sign painted somewhere, does that mean we count as 1 "person who has been assaulted", or do our multiple assaults count multiples? If someone has been attacked twice, are there 3 who didn't get attacked by those attackers or are there 6? What can I say, I think all those years of having a big target left me with a sort of mental deformity when it comes to statistics on assault (be it sexual, bullying or whatever); I take refuge from the memories in the detachment of mathematics.
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  #58  
Old 09-23-2018, 09:18 PM
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In my case, who would believe that girls do things like that to other girls, especially at that time? I'll leave it at that.

Last edited by nearwildheaven; 09-23-2018 at 09:19 PM.
  #59  
Old 09-23-2018, 09:44 PM
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No point in going over it all again. It was just expected back then and you were lucky if you could get away without too much damage. Sometimes you just let it happen because we were too afraid to stop them. Mostly we didn't tell adults because we thought we'd get in trouble. Honestly it was also because we just thought that's just the way it was, that it was expected and our feelings didn't really matter. It didn't help either that my first experience was as a six year old being molested for several years by my own father. No desire to revisit these experiences to add to an online tally. I know what it was like for girls my age back then.

I know this. I couldn't go through the details 30 years later from a single incident.
  #60  
Old 09-23-2018, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Modesty Blaise View Post
I've been following the Kavanaugh thread and it's just...disgusting and disturbing.

Then I saw this thread this morning and it just lifted my spirits. And reading it is very inspiring.

Thank you all for participating.

And thank you j666 for starting it.
Good, thank you, because when I read your previous post, I felt bad for bringing it up. Your sister wouldn't make a good witness because she wasn't docile enough? Oh, fuck that.

I knew a woman in your mother's position. It was really important to her that people knew she had believed her daughter and put her first. Still, she thought her daughter would never forgive her for letting it happen.

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Because unless you were full on raped, nobody gave a shit. You were groped? Fondled? Catcalled about your ass and tits? You should be happy for the male attention. It's a compliment, you uptight bitch!
And if you were full on raped, it was your fault; you shouldn't have been there, wearing that, alone with him, whatever. "Didn't you know better?"

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Nobody's arguing that memory is perfect, but "morphing" a "mild attempt at sexual persuasion" into "a brutal attack" is not really typical of the ways memory malfunctions. ...
Maybe it does happen that way. Maybe rapists - date rapists, at least - convince themselves over time that an attack was "just rough-housing", that the demands to stop were half-hearted pleas and just for show, that the torn clothes were just over eagerness, that s/he obviously wanted it, and - in the same thought - girls don't really like sex and that's why she didn't enjoy it.

Maybe rapists just keeping rewriting that memory until they actually believe it wasn't rape.

That makes more sense to me than that someone would make a traumatic event even worse in retrospect.
  #61  
Old 09-23-2018, 10:09 PM
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Good, thank you, because when I read your previous post, I felt bad for bringing it up. Your sister wouldn't make a good witness because she wasn't docile enough? Oh, fuck that.

I knew a woman in your mother's position. It was really important to her that people knew she had believed her daughter and put her first. Still, she thought her daughter would never forgive her for letting it happen.

And if you were full on raped, it was your fault; you shouldn't have been there, wearing that, alone with him, whatever. "Didn't you know better?"


Maybe it does happen that way. Maybe rapists - date rapists, at least - convince themselves over time that an attack was "just rough-housing", that the demands to stop were half-hearted pleas and just for show, that the torn clothes were just over eagerness, that s/he obviously wanted it, and - in the same thought - girls don't really like sex and that's why she didn't enjoy it.

Maybe rapists just keeping rewriting that memory until they actually believe it wasn't rape.

That makes more sense to me than that someone would make a traumatic event even worse in retrospect.
Even know, there are fuckers trying to argue that maybe it was just an attempt to persuade.

Last edited by raventhief; 09-23-2018 at 10:10 PM.
  #62  
Old 09-23-2018, 10:26 PM
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I didn't report because I liked the attention. I was 14-16. It was exciting. I had no filters and it felt good. I was too young and he was married to my mother. No was not an option.
  #63  
Old 09-23-2018, 10:34 PM
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Good, thank you, because when I read your previous post, I felt bad for bringing it up. Your sister wouldn't make a good witness because she wasn't docile enough? Oh, fuck that.

I knew a woman in your mother's position. It was really important to her that people knew she had believed her daughter and put her first. Still, she thought her daughter would never forgive her for letting it happen.
I didn’t really want to give all that detail, frankly. But I felt it was important to tell about how a conviction can be and was horrific.

About my mother: I never blamed her for the abuse.She said she didn’t know and I believed her. What I did blame her for was how she handled the aftermath. She was so driven she didn’t see or ask what it was doing to me or my sister. I was convinced until my late teens that it was inevitable that he would someday find my and kill me for testifying against him. I was panicked when he was released even though we were in another state by that time.

Decades later, there is some satisfaction that he was convicted, but I still would have chosen not to testify.
  #64  
Old 09-24-2018, 05:13 AM
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And if you were full on raped, it was your fault; you shouldn't have been there, wearing that, alone with him, whatever. "Didn't you know better?"


.
And that's why that quote was painted on the wall over the girls lockers in that high school. "The more you act like a lady, the more he'll act like a gentleman.".

And that's also why there was all that baffled clueless anger when it was painted over by popular demand.
  #65  
Old 09-24-2018, 05:28 AM
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My story is a little different. First, I was a little boy.
I wonder if more men came out about having been raped, if things would change faster?
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I was 16 and drunk. The 3 of them were in their 20s and at a high school party. It was 1978. It was my fault.
Wait - don't mean that you think it was your fault, do you? Because, yes, you made a bad decision, but no, it wasn't your fault. People make bad decisions without getting raped all the time.
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When I hear statistics like those, I kind of... hope that is true. Not the "1 in 4 have been molested", but the "3 in 4 have not".
I tend to read that as "3 out 4 women do not take public transportation".
  #66  
Old 09-24-2018, 06:04 AM
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When I hear statistics like those, I kind of... hope that is true. Not the "1 in 4 have been molested", but the "3 in 4 have not". My hope is that we'll keep growing this side of the equation.

A couple years ago, during a conversation with a female friend, I jokingly noted that my last three exes had been raped at some point in their lives and I wondered what that fact said about me - at which point she revealed she'd been GHB'd, too. Which prompted me to ask every girl I'm close enough with (or who seemed tipsy enough to answer even if they don't know me all that well) over the following month or so.


The answer is one. One has never been raped (or "didn't want to but didn't explicitly say no because X").
Oddly enough however, I have never met a single man who admitted to raping anyone. My best guess is, it must be just one very busy guy.
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Last edited by Kobal2; 09-24-2018 at 06:05 AM.
  #67  
Old 09-24-2018, 07:46 AM
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I tend to read that as "3 out 4 women do not take public transportation".
Or 3 out of 4 women do not walk down the street. Or 3 out of 4 women do not ride their bikes. Or 3 out of 4 women do not wait in line at theme parks. Or 3 out of 4 women do not total up their waitressing tickets while some jerk comes out of the bathroom. And on and on and on.

In fact, 3 out of 4 women never leave their homes at all.

Oops, one stupidly opened the door because she thought it was the meter reader. Make that 2 out of 4.
  #68  
Old 09-24-2018, 07:57 AM
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It took me 35 years to tell exactly one person exactly what happened to me, (my therapist), and it was still extremely difficult. I have no intention of telling anyone else, it's too hard.
  #69  
Old 09-24-2018, 08:04 AM
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I tend to read that as "3 out 4 women do not take public transportation".
Or go to school, or to high school, or to college, or have yucky relatives, or walk around, or work retail, or work as waitresses, or work as nurses, or work as doctors, or work as engineers, or work in a production line, or...

If women had to stop being in any and all situations that have ever been commonly tied to abuse, we'd just have to go POOF. Not be born. Which hey, would be easy-ish I guess, since any pregnant women would also have gone poof!
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  #70  
Old 09-24-2018, 08:40 AM
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I did report one.

I didn't report the escape half dressed from a dorm room or the gropey guy in the bar. I figured it was my fault, or I didn't want to make a scene. I didn't think about the probability that these guys were doing it to others, and would continue until the risk outweighed the reward.
  #71  
Old 09-24-2018, 11:26 AM
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The week-ago episode of John Oliver's LAST ꞰⴺⴺW TONIGHT was on-topic. But while I was preparing this post the clip switched to "Unavailable due to Copyright." Is there a way to get the week-ago episode? Some episodes are available via the "legit" channel, but not all?

Anyway, one interviewed Republican woman implied that every single boy did a similar rape attempt in high school! Uh ... I never did it in high school or at any other time. Many of the young men I knew were too timid to respond appropriately even if a young woman attempted to seduce them!

The episode also had a clip of DJT with the insight that Hurricane Florence was "Wet 'from the Standpoint of Water."
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  #72  
Old 09-24-2018, 12:24 PM
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The week-ago episode of John Oliver's LAST ꞰⴺⴺW TONIGHT was on-topic. But while I was preparing this post the clip switched to "Unavailable due to Copyright." Is there a way to get the week-ago episode? Some episodes are available via the "legit" channel, but not all?
Wait a few days, they'll put it up. In the case of Last Week Tonight the wait time seems to be one week (the episode from two weeks ago is already up).
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  #73  
Old 09-24-2018, 12:49 PM
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any pregnant women would also have gone poof!
Only since artificial insemination!
  #74  
Old 09-24-2018, 12:50 PM
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I used to carpool with three other women. We were talking about sexual assault one day and I mentioned reading that one in four women had been sexual molested. The three women all admitted to being raped when they were in high school or college. That is disturbing.

I can't imagine how terrible it must be to report, and testify. The cards are staked against the victim. There is an article in the Alaskan tribal news of a white man that attacked a native woman and he walked away with a slap on his wrist.
Sitting in school when I was 12 the teacher mentioned that one in four statistic and I looked at three of my friends and wondered who it would be. Then it slowly dawned on me that it was me - what was happening to me was what the teacher was talking about.

As the four of us grew up and talked, turns it it was all four of us.
  #75  
Old 09-24-2018, 01:10 PM
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Sitting in school when I was 12 the teacher mentioned that one in four statistic and I looked at three of my friends and wondered who it would be. Then it slowly dawned on me that it was me - what was happening to me was what the teacher was talking about.

As the four of us grew up and talked, turns it it was all four of us.
Yeah, I'm not buying the one in four statistic, especially if you include groping and harassment.
  #76  
Old 09-24-2018, 01:23 PM
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A couple times, thought I'd get in trouble for being where I wasn't supposed to be.


One time I told about, but a relative told me to hush because it would make another relative mad at the guilty relative. Ohhhh-kay.
  #77  
Old 09-24-2018, 01:41 PM
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Yeah, I'm not buying the one in four statistic, especially if you include groping and harassment.
From what I remember of the article it was rape. What really gets to me is two of those three women were raped by family members when they were young girls. I can't imagine that, my dad and brothers were protective of me. The third woman was a victim of a rapist during the early 80's in Portland OR. He was never caught.
  #78  
Old 09-24-2018, 01:44 PM
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I was three.

I was in my pre-teens and it was an older boy who always creeped me out and it was on the school bus and he grabbed me from behind so I couldn't have proved it was him anyway.

I was in my pre-teens, and it was my three-years-older uncle, and out of self-preservation I convinced myself he hadn't just whipped his dick out in front of me.

It was after the Sadie Hawkins dance, and I was fine with just a press of the lips but he forced his tongue in my mouth despite my clenched teeth and said "Nice" afterward. Fortunately, I had already knocked on the door and my mom answered it so I was able to escape. I never said anything because that was what was "supposed to" happen after a date and not liking it meant there was something wrong with me.

I was backstage at a theme park and I was shocked but it never occurred to me the thing my co-worker said to me was the kind of thing I could report.

I was backstage at the same theme park and a gay friend of mine grabbed my boobs.
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Last edited by SisterCoyote; 09-24-2018 at 01:47 PM. Reason: Wanted to add that this post is the first time I have told anyone ANY of this.
  #79  
Old 09-24-2018, 01:46 PM
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From what I remember of the article it was rape. What really gets to me is two of those three women were raped by family members when they were young girls. I can't imagine that, my dad and brothers were protective of me. The third woman was a victim of a rapist during the early 80's in Portland OR. He was never caught.
I think it's a statistic for reported rape, IIRC. Unreported rape is hard to statisticize.
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Old 09-24-2018, 02:14 PM
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I would really like to see the #metoo movement move its way down to the entry level employee. The one with no power. The people that have come forward so far have certainly had a lot to lose by doing so, but they are also in much better positions to be believed and to be able to manage their lives even if they are not.

It's happening. [The #metoo movement and walkouts over sexual harassment at McDonalds.]
  #81  
Old 09-24-2018, 03:44 PM
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I was 16 and drunk. The 3 of them were in their 20s and at a high school party. It was 1978. It was my fault.
No, it wasn't. You didn't deserve this. You did not make anyone do this.
  #82  
Old 09-24-2018, 03:49 PM
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I was helicopter Mom on steroids. My girls were taught from early on what to expect and how to tell. I cannot be 100% sure but I think they would've told me. I know they've endured catcalls, groping and unwanted attention, just like myself. I am fairly certain things never happened in extended family situations. I was the only sober adult, generally, so I watched the kids. I worry about the lil'wrekker because she is such an open, social, trusting girl. She does run in a pack of girls and I do find some comfort there.
We will be having a renewed talk next weekend when she's home. Helicopter Mom is at it again. I can see the rolling eyes already.
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Old 09-24-2018, 04:38 PM
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I was helicopter Mom on steroids. My girls were taught from early on what to expect and how to tell. I cannot be 100% sure but I think they would've told me. I know they've endured catcalls, groping and unwanted attention, just like myself. I am fairly certain things never happened in extended family situations. I was the only sober adult, generally, so I watched the kids. I worry about the lil'wrekker because she is such an open, social, trusting girl. She does run in a pack of girls and I do find some comfort there.
We will be having a renewed talk next weekend when she's home. Helicopter Mom is at it again. I can see the rolling eyes already.
Moms are, I think, less likely to do this than dads, but don't threaten harm to the person that might assault her. I'm lucky that mine were as minor as they were, but if something worse had happened I would have had trouble telling my parents because I'd have been afraid of my father killing someone.


Also, may she be lucky in her own way and never need your advice or mine.
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  #84  
Old 09-24-2018, 04:39 PM
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No, it wasn't. You didn't deserve this. You did not make anyone do this.
What ZipperJJ said.

What andros said.

What happened is not your fault.
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  #85  
Old 09-24-2018, 05:02 PM
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Thank you all for telling us.
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Old 09-24-2018, 06:43 PM
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I was stupid v. It was my fault.

I've survived a lot of stupid decisions, and I've been assaulted just going about my own business.

People want to believe there is a magic cloak of sensible and cautious behavior that will protect them from bad things, but there isn't. There just isn't. Bad things happen to all of us, and some times that bad thing is a sexual assault.

I think I thought being disbelieved and blamed would be even worse than the assault, and from those of you that did report, it looks like I was right. I was still a bloody coward, though.
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Old 09-24-2018, 06:56 PM
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I was stupid v. It was my fault.

I've survived a lot of stupid decisions, and I've been assaulted just going about my own business.

People want to believe there is a magic cloak of sensible and cautious behavior that will protect them from bad things, but there isn't. There just isn't. Bad things happen to all of us, and some times that bad thing is a sexual assault.

I think I thought being disbelieved and blamed would be even worse than the assault, and from those of you that did report, it looks like I was right. I was still a bloody coward, though.
Being a "coward" is another word for self-preservation. Being a "coward" is the smart thing to be. Being "brave" and telling what happened to you can bring down a ton of shit on your head, intentional and unintentional.

Demonizing those of us who dare to tell our stories is one on the best ways to keep us from doing it.

I think women are brave for just managing to get through the continual gauntlet of shit we have to endure just to, you know, have a life.
  #88  
Old 09-24-2018, 07:36 PM
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I think I am gonna have the lil'wrekker read this thread. I am not all together sure, now that I think back, she would know how far is too far. The groping, hands-on boys( and maybe some young women)are apparently still around. And, in numbers I was hoping were declining. Maybe not. This raises the hair on the back of my neck.
And a new threat is the dick-pics all these young women get on their phones. I have seen more young man pics than I would have ever imagined a few years ago. It's a big deal in the highschool/ college set.
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Old 09-24-2018, 08:53 PM
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What I don't understand is how some women verbally lacerate other women who come out and disclose that they were raped. But it reminds me of something I've noticed in the human creature: people will take advantage of vulnerability, of weakness.

If you watch documentaries about canines and other animals, the narrators and experts speak of animal instincts that can trigger an animal to attack. I think humans have those same instincts. Humans attack or otherwise take advantage of vulnerabilities and perceived weaknesses. And few people are as vulnerable as a rape victim.

I get the sense that conservative women who defend right wing rapists do so out of the belief that they're somehow too smart to be allow themselves to be raped, and that only weak and feeble women get gang-banged, and that, well, that's just their tough shit. Survival of the fittest and all.
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Old 09-24-2018, 09:50 PM
nearwildheaven nearwildheaven is offline
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The week-ago episode of John Oliver's LAST ꞰⴺⴺW TONIGHT was on-topic. But while I was preparing this post the clip switched to "Unavailable due to Copyright." Is there a way to get the week-ago episode? Some episodes are available via the "legit" channel, but not all?

Anyway, one interviewed Republican woman implied that every single boy did a similar rape attempt in high school! Uh ... I never did it in high school or at any other time. Many of the young men I knew were too timid to respond appropriately even if a young woman attempted to seduce them!

The episode also had a clip of DJT with the insight that Hurricane Florence was "Wet 'from the Standpoint of Water."
I saw it last night on You Tube. Keep looking around until you find it; one way or another, it should be there.

It also seems that a lot of people are not differentiating between forcible rape, and a wolf whistle or some lesser form of harassment that some women may view as positive attention. Some people may think they're the same thing; I don't. I'll put on my flameproof suit right about now.

And as for male rape victims, in the mid 1980s, the late actor Richard Crenna won an Emmy for portraying a police officer who has a bad attitude about rape victims, until he becomes one himself. It's a very powerful movie, not for preteens by any means, and is available on DVD under the title "Deadly Justice". Its original title was "The Rape of Richard Beck".

Last edited by nearwildheaven; 09-24-2018 at 09:51 PM.
  #91  
Old 09-24-2018, 11:26 PM
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What ZipperJJ said.

What andros said.

What happened is not your fault.
And she now knows it's not, hence the angry smiley. But back then, the first reaction from pretty much anybody would have been that it was. My grandmother was the victim-blaming world champion: except for this one time that she happened to be mad at him right then, every time Gramps assaulted someone in front of her (and yes, you're reading it right, it was a frequent occurrence) it was the fault of whomever he'd attacked. If she had big tits because she had big tits, if she was flat because she was flat, if he was a little child because it's fun to watch little children flounder, if she had ass because she did and if she hadn't waxed her armpits because she hadn't (never mind that it was winter and nobody really knew the status of her armpits).
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Old 09-25-2018, 12:14 AM
Modesty Blaise Modesty Blaise is offline
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I saw it last night on You Tube. Keep looking around until you find it; one way or another, it should be there.

It also seems that a lot of people are not differentiating between forcible rape, and a wolf whistle or some lesser form of harassment that some women may view as positive attention. Some people may think they're the same thing; I don't. I'll put on my flameproof suit right about now.

And as for male rape victims, in the mid 1980s, the late actor Richard Crenna won an Emmy for portraying a police officer who has a bad attitude about rape victims, until he becomes one himself. It's a very powerful movie, not for preteens by any means, and is available on DVD under the title "Deadly Justice". Its original title was "The Rape of Richard Beck".
Bolding mine.

I've never seen anyone equate rape with a wolf whistle. Not once. What I have seen is including rape, groping, wolf whistles, lewd comments, etc. in the description: sexual misconduct.
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Old 09-25-2018, 02:29 AM
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Rape with a wolf whistle, no. But a yelled compliment with assault, I have.
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Old 09-25-2018, 03:57 AM
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I wasn't going to respond because I DID report the worst one--14, sexually assaulted by a stranger in broad daylight. I told my parents after several hours of hoping I could leapfrog over what had happened in order to get back to normalcy. I told them because I was terrified he was still out there and would attack again. My parents took me to the cops. The cops said this guy must have been stalking me for days. They never caught him. If they had, he would have walked: no witnesses, no evidence.

I partly posted this because this seems like the safest thread to discuss sexual assault. I'm incoherent with rage at so many of the comments on other threads, notably the "11th hour" one in IMHO. Oh, my freaking God. We don't tell because we won't be believed, and the evidence is all over this board. People wonder why women are leaving the SDMB? This is why. And excusing it with "We don't want to stifle speech" or "We can't fight ignorance if we don't allow people to express it" is pure, enabling bullshit.

Fuck. I'm crying as I write this.
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Old 09-25-2018, 06:43 AM
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You were believed and supported, it sounds like, and recalling it is still bringing you to tears? Or is it the reaction of so many people to rape?

Rape is uniquely humiliating, that's why rapists rape, but I think talking about it openly helps a lot, and that's what makes the disbelief and dismissal so dangerous and hurtful. But to me, the reminder of the attitudes people have toward rape is important, it keeps me grounded and compassionate. It also an excellent way to identify assholes, in some ways even better than racism.

I think the comparison of assault and yelled "compliments" is valid. Catcalling is meant to demean and intimidate, too. There is a whole spectrum of socially acceptable behavior that diminishes women, from inappropriate compliments at work to forcible rape that men just don't have to put up with, because when men are the object, it is not socially acceptable.

Not to imply that rape isn't just as bad for men, and possibly more humiliating, but I've never seen anyone imply a man must have wanted it.
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Old 09-25-2018, 07:18 AM
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Talking about anything doesn't help much when the reactions of those within hearing distance make the distinction between "hearing" and "listening" so clear. A lot of the responses to reports of rape or assault are from people who hear and dismiss without ever listening.



And j666, there is a reason I did NOT put scare quotes: I know the difference between something intended to demean and intimidate and something intended to tell a person you think they look good. DON'T YOU MANSPLAIN TO ME AND THEN COME SAYING THAT YOU'RE ON MY SIDE.
  #97  
Old 09-25-2018, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Modesty Blaise View Post
Bolding mine.

I've never seen anyone equate rape with a wolf whistle. Not once. What I have seen is including rape, groping, wolf whistles, lewd comments, etc. in the description: sexual misconduct.
True. Speaking for myself (male, FWIW), the bit of my brain that says to me “wolf whistle? No way!” in some situation is the SAME bit that says “rape? No way!.” So the actions and likely consequences are not equivalent...but in some deep way (for me) they’re both “blocked” as thinkable actions by the same mental/emotional mechanism.

ETA: This is NOT the same part of my brain that guages the appropriateness of off-color jokes, though. I have to be more careful and attentive with that — there is no automatic “block.” I guess it’s because they might not be obviously threatening to a specific person in my presence.

Last edited by JKellyMap; 09-25-2018 at 07:23 AM.
  #98  
Old 09-25-2018, 10:50 AM
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This is NOT the same part of my brain that guages the appropriateness of off-color jokes, though. I have to be more careful and attentive with that — there is no automatic “block.” I guess it’s because they might not be obviously threatening to a specific person in my presence.
I'm a straight guy. Years ago, I jokingly suggested to a female coworker -- my age, same level, with whom I worked frequently and got along with well -- that she wear a certain dress to a presentation and "make sure you bend over a couple of times."

I'll never forget the look on her face at that moment. She knew I was kidding, but she also knew I'd scoped her cleavage the last time she wore that dress.

I immediately apologized, and it blew over. But she never wore that dress to work again.

If a joke from a work friend can inflict that level of hurt, I can't even imagine the pain we men inflict with more severe misconduct, or how greatly compounded it must be when you're not being listened to or believed.

Rachel, if you're out there, I'm so sorry.
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Old 09-25-2018, 10:51 AM
Modesty Blaise Modesty Blaise is offline
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To me, this whole Kavanaugh episode feels like a watershed moment. Anyone else feel that?
  #100  
Old 09-25-2018, 11:16 AM
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Maybe it does happen that way. Maybe rapists - date rapists, at least - convince themselves over time that an attack was "just rough-housing", that the demands to stop were half-hearted pleas and just for show, that the torn clothes were just over eagerness, that s/he obviously wanted it, and - in the same thought - girls don't really like sex and that's why she didn't enjoy it.

Maybe rapists just keeping rewriting that memory until they actually believe it wasn't rape.

That makes more sense to me than that someone would make a traumatic event even worse in retrospect.
Also, sometimes the victims will minimize the assault. It’s a coping mechanism.

When I was a teenager, 16 or so, I attended a summer theatre workshop at a nearby college - a well known fairly prestigious one. And even though this college was only a few miles from my home, we got to live in the dorms during the 6 week workshop. This was in 1974, I think.

The break from parental supervision was the real attraction and the adults running the workshop ended up becoming our party buddies. There were 3 or 4 of the girls that were the wild ones and very experienced with alcohol and drugs. A handful of our instructors enabled them and they ended up having consensual sex... they weren’t pairing off or anything like that — I think all of the girls in the group slept with each of the guys at some point. The girls were all 15 and 16. The guys were in their twenties and some of them were married.

So one night one of these 15 year olds is hanging out with the group at someone’s apartment, and one of the guys that she had slept with before starts coming on to her. But she had been drinking and it was late and she was really tired and half-asleep and not in the mood. She kept trying to push him away but he was a big guy and he screwed her anyway.

She didn't keep quiet, she told everyone. But she turned it into a snarky joke and before long “he just helped himself” (accompanied by an eye roll ) became a punchline. And no one ever called it rape. And no one “reported” it even though everyone knew.

I now realize ( and it’s been confirmed ) that the “party girls” that summer had one thing in common, they had all been sexually abused as young children ( my sister was part of the group ). And they “acted out” like crazy as teenagers and had numerous sexual relationships with adult men. None of whom seemed to see anything wrong with screwing a willing 15 year old. But it was just a perpetuation of the abuse they suffered as children.

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 09-25-2018 at 11:19 AM.
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