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  #5101  
Old 07-16-2015, 03:01 PM
Fear Itself is offline
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Originally Posted by Steophan View Post
Who gets to decide what's morally right, what rights and freedoms people should have? I don't think that's a trivial question. I would say that a democratic government probably shouldn't be, as by doing so you're asserting that you're objectively morally superior to the majority. Which is necessarily not true.
OK, let narrow this down. Is it ever justifiable to overthrow a government to secure human rights and freedoms? Democratic governments are not restrained from tyranny by the majority by anything except morality. If morality is indeterminate, why can't the minority rebel against oppressive tyranny and overthrow it?

Last edited by Fear Itself; 07-16-2015 at 03:01 PM.
  #5102  
Old 07-16-2015, 03:17 PM
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They shouldn't, rather than they can't, because it will make life worse for everyone - assuming that there's actually a democratic government and said minority has the right to vote, to campaign and so forth. If that's the case, working within the system will get them better results.

Also, as Smapti has made clear, saying you support overthrowing an elected government because you think they're morally wrong necessarily means that you think anyone who disagrees with the government on moral grounds should fight it, no matter how reprehensible you find their views.
  #5103  
Old 07-16-2015, 03:42 PM
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They shouldn't, rather than they can't, because it will make life worse for everyone - assuming that there's actually a democratic government and said minority has the right to vote, to campaign and so forth. If that's the case, working within the system will get them better results.
You are presuming that the minority has the same civil rights as the majority. In a democracy, it is the will of the majority that determines who has what rights that are not enumerated in the constitution. Plenty of latitude to oppress the minority and restrict their ability to legally challenge the oppression.

Last edited by Fear Itself; 07-16-2015 at 03:43 PM.
  #5104  
Old 07-16-2015, 03:45 PM
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One shouldn't overthrow legitimate monarchs either.
As there's no such fucking thing, that's alright, then. Sic semper tyrannis (sed solum tyrannum amo), eh?

Last edited by MrDibble; 07-16-2015 at 03:48 PM.
  #5105  
Old 07-16-2015, 04:13 PM
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As there's no such fucking thing, that's alright, then. Sic semper tyrannis (sed solum tyrannum amo), eh?
Apparently, the Cambridge Dictionaries Online disagrees with you. Who woulda thunk it?

[I]legitimate
le·git·i·mate
(lə-jĭt′ə-mĭt)
adj.
1.
a. Being in compliance with the law; lawful: a legitimate business.

b. Being in accordance with established or accepted rules and standards: legitimate advertising practices.

c. Valid or justifiable: a legitimate complaint.

d. Based on logical reasoning: a legitimate deduction.

2. Born of legally married parents: legitimate offspring.

3. Of, relating to, or ruling by hereditary right: a legitimate monarch.

4. Of or relating to drama of high professional quality that excludes burlesque, vaudeville, and some forms of musical comedy: the legitimate theater.

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dict...?q=legitimate+

I guess it is correct to say, "one shouldn't overthrow legitimate monarchs either".
  #5106  
Old 07-16-2015, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Fear Itself View Post
You are presuming that the minority has the same civil rights as the majority. In a democracy, it is the will of the majority that determines who has what rights that are not enumerated in the constitution. Plenty of latitude to oppress the minority and restrict their ability to legally challenge the oppression.
No, that's not a democracy. That's one reason civil rights protests in the 60s were legitimate, and the "protests" in Ferguson by or on behalf of those who have the full right to vote and be voted for, ar not.
  #5107  
Old 07-16-2015, 04:17 PM
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Also, for fuck's sake, the "legitimate Monarch" thing was a joke based on someone's comment about my nationality...
  #5108  
Old 07-16-2015, 04:38 PM
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No, that's not a democracy. That's one reason civil rights protests in the 60s were legitimate, and the "protests" in Ferguson by or on behalf of those who have the full right to vote and be voted for, ar not.
So for nearly 150 years, the United States was not a democracy? Because women didn't get the right to vote until 1920, and the poll tax and poll tests for black voters were not abolished until 1964.

See Disenfranchisement after the Reconstruction Era
  #5109  
Old 07-16-2015, 07:06 PM
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Woman drives to Texas to start a new job, gets arrested for a minor traffic violation, and her body is found in jail two days later.

Yes, you guessed right. She is (was) black.

The cop involved was fired from his last job for being racist.
  #5110  
Old 07-16-2015, 07:16 PM
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But... But... Her death has been ruled suicide! Isn't that good enough for you?!?
  #5111  
Old 07-16-2015, 07:21 PM
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At this point, I'm all for passing laws that charge every single cop that had anything to do with any suspect in custody who ends up dead at any point in the custodial chain with first-degree murder, with provisions that prevent the DA's office from refusing to prosecute or plea-bargaining anything. The cops should have to pay for their own lawyers as well. That will destroy the Blue Wall once and for all. If the state doesn't have capital punishment, it should be reinstated for custodial deaths. Make every cop go to trial. If they are innocent, the jury will decide that. Every other cop responsible gets fried. I've fucking had it.
  #5112  
Old 07-16-2015, 09:03 PM
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At this point, I'm all for passing laws that charge every single cop that had anything to do with any suspect in custody who ends up dead at any point in the custodial chain with first-degree murder, with provisions that prevent the DA's office from refusing to prosecute or plea-bargaining anything. The cops should have to pay for their own lawyers as well. That will destroy the Blue Wall once and for all. If the state doesn't have capital punishment, it should be reinstated for custodial deaths. Make every cop go to trial. If they are innocent, the jury will decide that. Every other cop responsible gets fried. I've fucking had it.
And how do you propose to deal with the fact that nobody whatsoever is going to want to volunteer to become a police officer once they're informed that they will be charged with capital murder and sentenced to death if anyone they ever come into contact with dies?
  #5113  
Old 07-16-2015, 09:04 PM
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I'm good with that.
  #5114  
Old 07-16-2015, 09:06 PM
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And you were doing so well. Right up to this point your persona was plausible. Honestly, you were right on the edge but just keeping one foot in play. Kudos for keeping it spinning this long
"My persona" is who I am. I am incapable of pretending to be something I am not. If you are so absolutely certain that your own personal beliefs are absolutely true that you believe the only way someone can disagree with you is if they are lying, then the fault lies with you, not with the dissenter.
  #5115  
Old 07-16-2015, 09:07 PM
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I'm good with that.
Then you acknowledge that you're just an anarchist who believes that all police power is wrong and that anyone should be allowed to do whatever they feel like at any time.

Good to know.
  #5116  
Old 07-16-2015, 09:08 PM
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OK, let narrow this down. Is it ever justifiable to overthrow a government to secure human rights and freedoms?
No.


Quote:
Democratic governments are not restrained from tyranny by the majority by anything except morality. If morality is indeterminate, why can't the minority rebel against oppressive tyranny and overthrow it?
Because morality is indeterminate, any claim that one is rebelling against an "immoral" government is inherently invalid.
  #5117  
Old 07-16-2015, 09:10 PM
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Then you acknowledge that you're just an anarchist who believes that all police power is wrong and that anyone should be allowed to do whatever they feel like at any time.

Good to know.
Given that cops have killed an average of 4 Americans/day so far this month, I'll take my chances with anarchy. It's safer.
  #5118  
Old 07-16-2015, 09:13 PM
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Because morality is indeterminate, any claim that one is rebelling against an "immoral" government is inherently invalid.
I didn't say the rebellion was against immorality, it is to secure human rights and freedoms. If morality is indeterminate, such a rebellion is not immoral. Right?
  #5119  
Old 07-16-2015, 09:16 PM
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Given that cops have killed an average of 4 Americans/day so far this month, I'll take my chances with anarchy. It's safer.
How many Americans per day have non-cops killed this month?
  #5120  
Old 07-16-2015, 09:17 PM
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I didn't say the rebellion was against immorality, it is to secure human rights and freedoms. If morality is indeterminate, such a rebellion is not immoral. Right?
No rebellion is immoral, because morality is subjective and unprovable.

However, all rebellions are unlawful, regardless of what the rebels believe they're killing in the name of.

Last edited by Smapti; 07-16-2015 at 09:17 PM.
  #5121  
Old 07-16-2015, 09:21 PM
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However, all rebellions are unlawful, regardless of what the rebels believe they're killing in the name of.
Well, duh. I should have said justifiable. Are rebellions to secure human rights and freedom justifiable?
  #5122  
Old 07-16-2015, 09:24 PM
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Well, duh. I should have said justifiable. Are rebellions to secure human rights and freedom justifiable?
Only if they win. If the rebels win, then they are now the government, and they can define the law however they want. If they lose, then they'll be punished by the laws of the government they failed to defeat.
  #5123  
Old 07-17-2015, 01:56 AM
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So for nearly 150 years, the United States was not a democracy? Because women didn't get the right to vote until 1920, and the poll tax and poll tests for black voters were not abolished until 1964.

See Disenfranchisement after the Reconstruction Era
You could probably make an argument that it still isn't, given the fact that criminals who've served their sentences aren't allowed to vote in many places. Still doesn't mean I think that rebellion would be a sensible response to that.
  #5124  
Old 07-17-2015, 01:58 AM
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At this point, I'm all for passing laws that charge every single cop that had anything to do with any suspect in custody who ends up dead at any point in the custodial chain with first-degree murder, with provisions that prevent the DA's office from refusing to prosecute or plea-bargaining anything. The cops should have to pay for their own lawyers as well. That will destroy the Blue Wall once and for all. If the state doesn't have capital punishment, it should be reinstated for custodial deaths. Make every cop go to trial. If they are innocent, the jury will decide that. Every other cop responsible gets fried. I've fucking had it.
Nice to see you don't recognise the constitutional, legal, or moral rights of people who have chosen to put themselves at risk to protect you. Whatever you think the problem is, kangaroo courts and show trials are not the answer.
  #5125  
Old 07-17-2015, 07:15 AM
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I love how the S&S twins think that if the rules for cops are tightened such that killing black people is clearly frowned upon, nobody will want to be cops and we'll descend into anarchy.

Personally, if we make candidates who look at killing people as a job perk reconsider applying, that will be a dramatic improvement.
  #5126  
Old 07-17-2015, 08:15 AM
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I love how the S&S twins think that if the rules for cops are tightened such that killing black people is clearly frowned upon, nobody will want to be cops and we'll descend into anarchy.
I love how people like you think that ignoring the laws that protect people and treating a specific group of people badly, ignoring their legal, constitutional, and moral rights is a solution to anything.

It's almost like you want to treat the police as an inferior group, something I thought you were against. The hypocrisy is amusing.

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Personally, if we make candidates who look at killing people as a job perk reconsider applying, that will be a dramatic improvement.
That you think policemen actually enjoy killing, or want to kill, just shows your idiocy even further. As I'm sure you're aware, the vast majority of cops never use their weapons except in training, let alone kill people, and those that do are thoroughly investigated and potentially have their lives ruined, even if the killing turned out to be justified. But don't let the facts get in the way of your ranting.
  #5127  
Old 07-17-2015, 08:27 AM
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I love how people like you think that ignoring the laws that protect people and treating a specific group of people badly, ignoring their legal, constitutional, and moral rights is a solution to anything.
Wait, I thought you said it's ok to shoot young black males cause they're scary?
  #5128  
Old 07-17-2015, 08:37 AM
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Wait, I thought you said it's ok to shoot young black males cause they're scary?
No, no. It's not cause they're black. They must be shot because of black culture. It's very different and not at all racist.
  #5129  
Old 07-17-2015, 08:47 AM
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I love how people like you think that ignoring the laws that protect people and treating a specific group of people badly, ignoring their legal, constitutional, and moral rights is a solution to anything.
I love how people like you think cops are justified in killing anyone who puts their hand in their pocket.
  #5130  
Old 07-17-2015, 12:17 PM
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And how do you propose to deal with the fact that nobody whatsoever is going to want to volunteer to become a police officer once they're informed that they will be charged with capital murder and sentenced to death if anyone they ever come into contact with dies?
Except the majority of police who are being very careful not to kill people.

Wait, what? ... The police are volunteers in the US??
  #5131  
Old 07-17-2015, 07:01 PM
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Wait, what? ... The police are volunteers in the US??
...Did you think they were conscripts?
  #5132  
Old 07-17-2015, 07:27 PM
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I love how people like you think cops are justified in killing anyone who puts their hand in their pocket.
I love how you can neither read nor reason.
  #5133  
Old 07-17-2015, 07:46 PM
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...Did you think they were conscripts?
No, I thought they got paid.
  #5134  
Old 07-17-2015, 07:57 PM
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I love how you can neither read nor reason.
It must be frustrating for you that so few people understand gibberish.
  #5135  
Old 07-17-2015, 08:51 PM
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The two dumb cunts in this thread seem like they would be happy being an Auschwitz tattooist. Because it's the law, yeah? Been told what to do by a big man in a uniform?
  #5136  
Old 07-17-2015, 09:08 PM
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No rebellion is immoral, because morality is subjective and unprovable.
This statement isn't even internally consistent.

Perhaps you meant to assert that rebellion is amoral? Otherwise, why should I accept anything you say on this subject, since your dependent clause denies you of the very basis for even making such an authoritative assertion?
  #5137  
Old 07-18-2015, 03:09 AM
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NYPD Officer Salvator Aquino being investigated


This showed up at VICE today:
Quote:
Stephanie Dorceant, a 29-year-old aspiring filmmaker, said in a statement that she was heading back from a concert with her girlfriend in the early hours of July 11 in Brooklyn when the incident occurred. The pair had just emerged from a cab and had begun walking to their shared apartment when a man allegedly bumped Dorceant from behind. When she asked if he was all right, he allegedly responded, "Mind your own business, you fucking dyke."

Words were exchanged and Dorceant claims that the off-duty NYPD officer, who was later named as Salvator Aquino in court documents,proceeded to punch her several times, choke her, and scream more gay slurs at her. She claims that she bit the officer to try and get him to stop the assault.

"When he had his hands around my neck I truly thought I was going to die," Dorceant said in a statement. "I could not breathe."

Aquino reportedly yelled at the cab driver, who was still at the curb, to "call the cops." When uniformed officers arrived at the scene, Dorceant said that they wrestled her to the ground and put their knees on her neck, shoulders, and back.

The women were handcuffed and taken into custody. Dorceant was later taken to the hospital before being transferred to central bookings, according to the Gothamist. She spent two days in jail, including a whole day on New York's notorious prison at Riker's Island.

The whole thing reminds me of last year when that kid who was smoking a cigarette in NYC got beat unconscious by an off-duty cop. Did anything ever happen to that cop? Prolly not, and prolly nothing will happen to this cop, but that don't make it right.
  #5138  
Old 07-19-2015, 11:46 AM
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Mississippi, show 'em how it's done.

unarmed black man choked to death for mouthing off to a cop from a horse and buggy

Stay classy, Mississippi.
  #5139  
Old 07-19-2015, 01:01 PM
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This statement isn't even internally consistent.
How is it not? The statement "rebellion is immoral" implies the existence of objective morality; since there is no such thing, the statement cannot be true.
  #5140  
Old 07-19-2015, 01:08 PM
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I love how people like you think cops are justified in killing anyone who puts their hand in their pocket.
I love how people like you think you have to wait until after you've been shot in the face in order to defend yourself.
  #5141  
Old 07-19-2015, 01:23 PM
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I love how people like you think you have to wait until after you've been shot in the face in order to defend yourself.
I love how people like you think you have to preemptively shoot people because you are scared and a pussy.
  #5142  
Old 07-19-2015, 01:27 PM
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I love how people like you think you have to preemptively shoot people because you are scared and a pussy.
I'd rather be frightened and alive than fearless and dead.
  #5143  
Old 07-19-2015, 02:24 PM
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I'd rather be frightened and alive than fearless and dead.
Well, this neatly vindicates my earlier observation that you're arguing that cops should shoot everyone as soon as they arrive on scene, just in case.
  #5144  
Old 07-19-2015, 02:36 PM
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Well, this neatly vindicates my earlier observation that you're arguing that cops should shoot everyone as soon as they arrive on scene, just in case.
This is what Bryan Ekers thinks happens when a cop sees a black person.
  #5145  
Old 07-19-2015, 03:10 PM
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Mississippi, show 'em how it's done.

unarmed black man choked to death for mouthing off to a cop from a horse and buggy

Stay classy, Mississippi.
I'll save the bots a click:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steopoo & Smaptipoo, Racist Gun-crazed Bots `R' Us

This "unarmed" black man disobeyed police orders. The cop had good reason to believe he was an armed terrorist; following him to empty his magzine into him was the safest course of action. And "unarmed"?? We have no way to verify that, but even if the N****r was truly unarmed the cop had no way to know that.

And BTW, N****r was probably not a racist epithet -- this might be Mississippi police code for a perp from a socially inferior group of unknown skin color who may be about to disobey police orders.

It was a good clean kill. Next case.

{Steopoo & Smaptipoo, Racist Gun-crazed Bots `R' Us : : : writing automated pro-gun anti-black posts on message boards for only 15 cents per word since 2013. Ask about our volume discount.}

Last edited by septimus; 07-19-2015 at 03:11 PM.
  #5146  
Old 07-19-2015, 03:22 PM
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I'll save the bots a click:
Cute.

I don't have enough information about what happened here, based on the one-sided account presented by the plaintiffs' attorneys, to form an opinion yet. Honestly, the account here doesn't make a lot of sense - the officer was in the company of a civilian female (who nobody apparently knows the name of), but he was travelling in his squad car, and engaged in "an altercation" (not law enforcement business) with a person the deceased knew, and the deceased was strangled with "a headlight tied around his head" and this all just happened to go down right in front of three of the deceased's in-laws' house, and he was throttled for 20 minutes, and was able to tell people he couldn't breathe despite the fact that doing so would mean he was able to breathe?

This sounds an awful lot like the "Darren Wilson stared Michael Brown in the eyes and shot him in the face while he begged for his life" accounts that we heard this time last year, which turned out to be completely unsubstantiated by the physical evidence and the preponderance of physical accounts. When and if we hear from a party that isn't financially motivated to smear the police, then I'll be able to form an opinion on this matter.

Last edited by Smapti; 07-19-2015 at 03:23 PM.
  #5147  
Old 07-19-2015, 03:29 PM
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Nice, taking your pathetic beliefs and attributing them to me. Let me guess - you're rubber and I'm glue?
  #5148  
Old 07-19-2015, 03:43 PM
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To be fair, at the end the police chief's coffee probably was black.
  #5149  
Old 07-19-2015, 04:22 PM
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Nice, taking your pathetic beliefs and attributing them to me. Let me guess - you're rubber and I'm glue?
I don't believe that all black people can be justifiably shot on sight. You believe that police believe that all black people can be justifiably shot on sight.
  #5150  
Old 07-19-2015, 04:45 PM
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I didn't say black people. By your arguments, the cops should shoot ALL people on the scene for their own safety, and it is unthinkable to demand they act otherwise.
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