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Old 01-04-2018, 03:40 PM
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Would you rather have Ben Carson as president right now?


Not interested in discussing any of the other contenders of the GOP primary. Just Carson.

Imagine somehow he won the nomination and beat Hillary. Do you think he would have done a better job so far than Trump has?
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Old 01-04-2018, 03:45 PM
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I think he'd be just as incompetent, just lower key. Less sizzle. We'd be bored into complacency by his sleepiness and hushed tones.
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Old 01-04-2018, 04:03 PM
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Tough call. But if those were my only two choices, I guess I would pick Carson over Trump. Both are woefully inexperienced for the job and they share a disconnect from reality. But I think Carson would have at least tried to do a good job as President even if it was beyond his abilities. With Trump I feel he doesn't even care that he's doing a terrible job.
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Old 01-04-2018, 04:13 PM
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All his political positions aside, Carson seems like is personally a kind man.

Trump has spent a lifetime conning people. He's not a successful businessman so much as he's a successful con artist. His financial life has been a perpetual balancing act with leveraged assets, with the objective of enabling himself to live a lavish lifestyle and get as much attention as possible.

Carson has spent a lifetime as a neurosurgeon.

I know damn well which of these men I'd rather have in charge of the country, if I HAD to choose between one or the other.
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Old 01-04-2018, 04:18 PM
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I think Carson is capable of compassion and decency, even if he's a wingnut in terms of ideas, and ignorant to boot. So I'd pick Carson, and it'd be an easy choice.
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Old 01-04-2018, 04:19 PM
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Trump is incompetent, and he is laying bare the problems in the Republican party to hasten their demise. It's dangerous, but if we make it through this, I'll be glad we had Trump to show us how bad it can actually get.
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Old 01-04-2018, 04:24 PM
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Interesting choice. I think I'd prefer Carson for the immediate good of the country, just because he seems a far more decent human. And I doubt he would go out of his way to offend others internationally the way Trump does.

I think that outweighs the harm Trump is going to cause to the Republican party, and the jumpstart he is (hopefully) going to inspire o/b/o liberals.
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Old 01-04-2018, 04:26 PM
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They are both the epitome of ineptitude for the role of POTUS. However, I suspect Carson would acknowledge he is in over his head, and ensure he is surrounded by top talent (not just hire "tha best people"). And actually listen to what they say (clearly not happening today). I think that would be the major difference between the two, which is why I would rather have had Carson in the role, even with his overly religious tones.
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Old 01-04-2018, 04:29 PM
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To those saying that Carson has some basic decency, remember how avid he is in his religion. Which might not be so bad, if he worshiped someone other than himself. His entire home is a shrine to how great he is, except for one tiny plaque hidden in the middle of one wall with a quote from the Book of Poverbs [sic].

He probably would still be better than Trump, but that's just a testament to how bad Trump is.
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Old 01-04-2018, 04:31 PM
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The fact that this question even generates some level of contemplation ought to scare the hell out of anyone who cares about the state of the world.

And that's not threadshitting. That's a fact.
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Old 01-04-2018, 04:39 PM
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Ben Carson is on the list of people that I wouldn't prefer over Donald Trump as president. That puts him in the company of my brother, Vladamir Putin, the guy who's always hanging out at the gas station, Roy Moore, OJ Simpson, Tracy Morgan, etc.
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Old 01-04-2018, 04:41 PM
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So in what ways would Carson be worse than Trump?
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Old 01-04-2018, 04:44 PM
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Carson no question.

Carson would be woefully incompetent, possibly even more so than Trump, but would be so in a more bumbling fool sort of way, not in the scary "My god what have you done!" sort of way. I believe that Carson would act in what he believes to be the best interest of his country, unlike Trump whose sole concern is his own ego.

Carson would likely commit many diplomatic faux pas inadvertently but he would be unlikely to out and out actively insult our allies, nor do I think he would actively pursue increasing the divicivness in the country.

In short I'd rather have Chauncey Gardiner than Greg Stillson in charge of the country.
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Old 01-04-2018, 04:44 PM
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Trump is incompetent, and he is laying bare the problems in the Republican party to hasten their demise. It's dangerous, but if we make it through this, I'll be glad we had Trump to show us how bad it can actually get.
Thats my view.

Carson isn't malicious or mentally unstable like Trump. But Trump is forcing America and the world to confront the deranged, white nationalist cancer at the heart of the right.

Plus hopefully Trump's presidency will be followed by a wave of reforms to strengthen our checks and balances. We wouldn't get that with Carson.
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Old 01-04-2018, 04:49 PM
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Thats my view.

Carson isn't malicious or mentally unstable like Trump. But Trump is forcing America and the world to confront the deranged, white nationalist cancer at the heart of the right.

Plus hopefully Trump's presidency will be followed by a wave of reforms to strengthen our checks and balances. We wouldn't get that with Carson.
I have to say I don't subscribe to this "crucible of hardship that will ultimately forge a better future for America" idea of Trump that you seem to have.
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Old 01-04-2018, 04:54 PM
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strengthen our checks and balances.
We have plenty of checks and balances. What has happened is that it has been laid bare how easy it is to ignore them when it's convenient for those in power.
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Old 01-04-2018, 05:26 PM
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Yes, I would prefer a president who doesn't taunt nuclear-armed dictators over Twitter, does not encourage neo-Nazis, and would say appropriate things if he were giving a speech to the Boy Scouts, and I'm fairly sure Ben Carson could clear all of those (low) bars.
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Old 01-04-2018, 05:43 PM
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Yes, I would prefer a president who doesn't taunt nuclear-armed dictators over Twitter, does not encourage neo-Nazis, and would say appropriate things if he were giving a speech to the Boy Scouts, and I'm fairly sure Ben Carson could clear all of those (low) bars.
It's remarkable how little baggage Carson carries.

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Old 01-04-2018, 06:48 PM
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Ben Carson is on the list of people that I wouldn't prefer over Donald Trump as president. That puts him in the company of my brother, Vladamir Putin, the guy who's always hanging out at the gas station, Roy Moore, OJ Simpson, Tracy Morgan, etc.
Your brother isn't Drunk Uncle by any chance, is he?
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Old 01-04-2018, 07:02 PM
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I have to say I don't subscribe to this "crucible of hardship that will ultimately forge a better future for America" idea of Trump that you seem to have.
I agree. All Trump is doing is lowering the standards. In the future, there will be people who think a candidate is acceptable if he's only seventy-five percent as bad as Trump.

A president as horrible as Trump makes people like Mike Pence and George W. Bush and Ted Cruz and Ben Carson seem like normal candidates.
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Old 01-04-2018, 07:30 PM
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Trump is incompetent, and he is laying bare the problems in the Republican party to hasten their demise. It's dangerous, but if we make it through this, I'll be glad we had Trump to show us how bad it can actually get.
Yeah. I will never be happy that Trump won, but when I think of the damage that a halfway competent rubber-stamp Republican would have done, I shudder. It's no small consolation to see Trump so badly damaging the GOP inadvertently (or advertently, who the hell knows). Bannon, Trump, and McConnell deserve each other and I'm enjoying that spectacle.

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Old 01-04-2018, 08:10 PM
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I have to say I don't subscribe to this "crucible of hardship that will ultimately forge a better future for America" idea of Trump that you seem to have.
Admittedly, it works better in retrospect than it does prospectively.
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Old 01-04-2018, 08:48 PM
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Ben Carson is on the list of people that I wouldn't prefer over Donald Trump as president. That puts him in the company of my brother, Vladamir Putin, ...
Phrasing!
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Old 01-04-2018, 09:26 PM
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I'd prefer Carson.
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Old 01-04-2018, 09:28 PM
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... Plus hopefully Trump's presidency will be followed by a wave of reforms to strengthen our checks and balances. We wouldn't get that with Carson.
What sort of "reforms to strengthen our checks and balances" would you like to see?

Personally, I have a hard time imagining Dems mving to curtail the power of the presidency if one of their own holds the office, but I'd love to be pleasantly surprised to be wrong.
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Old 01-04-2018, 10:24 PM
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Your brother isn't Drunk Uncle by any chance, is he?
Drunk Uncle excuses himself and leaves early if my brother is there.
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Old 01-04-2018, 10:28 PM
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It's remarkable how little baggage Carson carries.
No, he lost it for a while but it just showed up.

Carson may not be as openly malicious as Trump, but he is easily just as ignorant, and would readily be manipulated by the Seventh Day Adventist church that did everything short of ordering its members to boost and vote for him in the primary. This is a man who, despite being a presumably highly educated neurosurgeon, that homosexuality is a choice (and believes marriage to be a ‘states rights’ issue), believes that evolution is a liberal conspiracy, and that the Egyption pyramids are grain silos. Trump is at least blatantly a self-serving huckster and the rest of the world realizes it. Carson is a fucking nutter of the first order, and who knows what cracktastic idea he is going to come up with next.

Trump has at least done the service of actively alienating much of the country (record low net approval ratings of any US President in the modern era) and has also fragmented not only ‘his’ party but his own Cabinet and advisors. With luck, he’ll self-destruct or get taken down by the Mueller investigation before he starts a war with North Korea, and go off in a huff insisting he can pardon himself for the crimes he didn’t commit (leaving us with Mike Pence, which, ugh, but still) and maybe we can have an election between sensible candidates in 2020, provided Clinton can stop herself from insisting that it’s “her time” this round. Carson is so far off the bug it isn’t clear who would be in control or what nonsense decision he’d come up with next based upon fraudulent pseudoscience and a belief system which is bizarre even by Christian evangelical standards.

“I’ll take ‘narcissist politicians’ for $800, Alex.”

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Old 01-04-2018, 10:29 PM
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Personally, I have a hard time imagining Dems mving to curtail the power of the presidency if one of their own holds the office, but I'd love to be pleasantly surprised to be wrong.
And I just in the past few years witnessed Obama refusing attempts by the Republicans to give him huge amounts of additional power.
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Old 01-04-2018, 10:44 PM
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And I just in the past few years witnessed Obama refusing attempts by the Republicans to give him huge amounts of additional power.
What are you referring to here? I remember Republicans being upset about the DACA executice order and quite a few other things they felt were executive overreach.
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Old 01-04-2018, 10:51 PM
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No, those were all powers that the President has always had, since 1789. I'm referring to things like the debt ceiling.

Last edited by Chronos; 01-04-2018 at 10:51 PM. Reason: Typoed date
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Old 01-05-2018, 12:57 AM
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No, those were all powers that the President has always had, since 1789...
That's kind of funny, because ConLaw professor Obama said several times that the president did NOT have that power.
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Old 01-05-2018, 07:35 AM
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Tough choice, they're both idiots, though Carson is an idiot savant and was at one time adept in brain surgery while being completely at sea with regard to every other field of knowledge.

Right now, Carson would be infinitely better if we take the short term view. If we look at the highly desirable goal of the complete destruction of the Republican Party, then Donald is the better choice. So if we survive however long Putin's puppet stays in power, then we're better off with Donald. If we don't, then we'll regret not having Carson.
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Old 01-05-2018, 07:42 AM
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That's kind of funny, because ConLaw professor Obama said several times that the president did NOT have that power.
Actual quote?
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Old 01-05-2018, 09:51 AM
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I have to say I don't subscribe to this "crucible of hardship that will ultimately forge a better future for America" idea of Trump that you seem to have.
Fair enough. It could just make things worse by moving the overton window and making authoritarianism, criminality, corruption and gross incompetence acceptable behavior among politicians.

My hope is that Trump forces us to face who we truly are as a nation and start addressing it. But it may empower those forces instead.
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Old 01-05-2018, 09:57 AM
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Actual quote?
You can read a couple of them here:

source
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Old 01-05-2018, 10:29 AM
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You can read a couple of them here:

source
What does immigration law have to do with the debt ceiling?
Obama was referring to changing immigration law, not whether he had the power to enforce immigration law.

ETA: There's no mention of the debt ceiling in your "cite".

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Old 01-05-2018, 11:15 AM
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What does immigration law have to do with the debt ceiling?
Obama was referring to changing immigration law, not whether he had the power to enforce immigration law.
Correct. In fact, in every instance noted in that factcheck, Obama explicitly says that he has the authority to determine how the law is enforced, especially since Congress only authorized enough money to deport a fraction of the folks here illegally. That alone requires prioritization.

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Old 01-05-2018, 12:35 PM
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What does immigration law have to do with the debt ceiling?
Obama was referring to changing immigration law, not whether he had the power to enforce immigration law.

ETA: There's no mention of the debt ceiling in your "cite".
I think we were talking past each other. When I said "Obama said several times that the president did NOT have that power", the "that power" I was referring to was the power to enact the DREAM Act via executive order.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obama
I strongly believe we should fix our broken immigration system. (Applause.) Fix it so that it meets our 21st-century economic and security needs. And I want to work with Democrats and Republicans, yes, to protect our borders, and enforce our laws, and address the status of millions of undocumented workers. (Applause.) And I will keep fighting alongside many of you to make the DREAM Act the law of the land. (Applause.)

Like all of this country’s movements towards justice, it will be difficult and it will take time. I know some here wish that I could just bypass Congress and change the law myself. (Applause.) But that’s not how democracy works. See, democracy is hard. But it’s right.

Changing our laws means doing the hard work of changing minds and changing votes, one by one. And I am convinced we can change the laws, because we should all be able to agree that it makes no sense to expel talented young people from our country. They grew up as Americans.
source

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obama
And I think there’s been a great disservice done to the cause of getting the Dream Act passed and getting comprehensive immigration passed by perpetrating the notion that somehow, by myself, I can go and do these things. It’s just not true.”
source
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Old 01-05-2018, 12:46 PM
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He said that he couldn't change the law himself, and he didn't change the law himself. What's the contradiction?
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Old 01-05-2018, 12:49 PM
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Wasn't he always making up the laws himself, ignoring Congress, acting as a dictator? Or was that a different Obama the Pubs were always harping about?
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Old 01-05-2018, 01:07 PM
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With Trump I feel he doesn't even care that he's doing a terrible job.
You are being too generous. I don't think he's aware he's doing a terrible job.
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Old 01-05-2018, 04:54 PM
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Obama said he couldn't bypass Congress and enact DACA thru executive order, and then bypassed Congress and enacted DACA thru executive order.

:shrugs:

You can lead a horse to water...

Regards,
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Old 01-05-2018, 06:01 PM
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I think we were talking past each other. When I said "Obama said several times that the president did NOT have that power", the "that power" I was referring to was the power to enact the DREAM Act via executive order.



source



source
He didn't "enact the Dream Act". That's why Trump can reverse it without going through Congress. Nowhere in your quote does he say he can't set enforcement priorities. He made that clearer in your earlier cites, where he said stuff like:

Quote:
With respect to the notion that I can just suspend deportations through executive orders, that’s just not the case, because there are laws on the books that Congress has passed - and I know that everybody here at Bell is studying hard, so you know that we’ve got three branches of government. Congress passes the law. The executive branch’s job is to enforce and implement those laws. And then the judiciary has to interpret the laws.

"There are enough laws on the books that are very clear in terms of how we enforce our immigration system that for me to, simply through executive order, ignore these constitutional mandates would not conform with my appropriate role as president. That does not mean, though, that we can’t make decisions, for example, to emphasize enforcement on those who’ve engaged in criminal activity."
If you want to catch Obama on a hypocritical aspect of constitutional law as it applies to the presidency, you're better off focusing on what he said about the use of force against foreign powers.

Last edited by John Mace; 01-05-2018 at 06:03 PM.
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Old 01-05-2018, 06:08 PM
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He didn't "enact the Dream Act". That's why Trump can reverse it without going through Congress. Nowhere in your quote does he say he can't set enforcement priorities. He made that clearer in your earlier cites, where he said stuff like:



If you want to catch Obama on a hypocritical aspect of constitutional law as it applies to the presidency, you're better off focusing on what he said about the use of force against foreign powers.
*shrug* it's done now, Trump fixed it, so it's not terribly relevant anymore.
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Old 01-05-2018, 06:45 PM
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*shrug* it's done now, Trump fixed it, so it's not terribly relevant anymore.
Trump hasn't done anything yet wrt deporting folks. We'll see when he starts deporting some of the Dreamers. Will that be before or after he keeps Transsexuals out of the military?

Last edited by John Mace; 01-05-2018 at 06:45 PM.
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Old 01-05-2018, 06:59 PM
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Trump hasn't done anything yet wrt deporting folks. We'll see when he starts deporting some of the Dreamers. Will that be before or after he keeps Transsexuals out of the military?
Before transexuals, after ‘The Wall’, and in between the seventh and eighth hole at Mar-A-Lago, if Putin will let him. And then he’ll have a big beautiful piece of chocolate cake to reward himself for working so hard.

Trump is like a Marx Brothers film come to life, while Carson is kind of a really drowsy Charlie Chaplin. Which I guess makes Ted Cruz a Hammer vampire film.

I had a point when I began this but it has since escaped like Paul Newman from a Florida prison farm.

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Old 01-05-2018, 07:09 PM
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I had a point when I began this but it has since escaped like Paul Newman from a Florida prison farm.
Which candidate made you feel the most like you had just eaten 50 hard-boiled eggs?
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Old 01-05-2018, 07:17 PM
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Can we not hijack this into arguing about Obama? I know all Negroes look alike to some people, but come on!

Oh, Ditka? Pit.
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Old 01-05-2018, 07:29 PM
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I think he'd be just as incompetent, just lower key. Less sizzle. We'd be bored into complacency by his sleepiness and hushed tones.
Y' know, I'm convinced that Carson performed a lobotomy on himself years ago and just doesn't remember it.
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Old 01-05-2018, 07:39 PM
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Which candidate made you feel the most like you had just eaten 50 hard-boiled eggs?
He wasn’t a candidate, but whenever Jeff Sessions is speaking I get flashbacks of Strother Martin. “I wish you’d stop bein’ so good to me, Captain.”

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