Straight Dope Message Board

[Not Carlson]

Good lord. This discussion's back?

Originally Posted by Sage Rat

Indeed. But, it's more useful to the world for me to do what I'm doing.

For a historian who is deeply entranced by the mystery of Atlantis, there is going to be a giant sense of accomplishment in finding some proof pro or con that Atlantis is real.

For a teacher, giving his students the legend of Atlantis and pushing them to come to a logic and evidence based conclusion will be the thing that gives him a sense of accomplishment.

On this topic, I'm in the latter camp. I feel like it brings more to the world than the former.

If you're in the latter camp, what you've been doing in this thread is equivalent to telling your students that there MAY WELL BE a lost city of Atlantis waiting to be discovered, but if not, it may be the lost kingdom of Utopia, or Lilliput, or Laputa. Anyway, it's probably one of those.
Your "students" meanwhile, have been questioning why you're insisting that they should be spending time studying fantasy in a history class.

I mean, if they ever do discover Atlantis, figuratively speaking, I'll say "Holy shit, Mr. Sagerat was right! (But he was still one weird substitute teacher.)"
Till then, I won't be submitting any reports on mythical kingdoms.

In short, no, what you're doing is not useful to the world. 501

[Smapti]

Originally Posted by Not Carlson

Good lord. This discussion's back?

My thoughts exactly. This thread has crawled so far up its own ass I'm not even sure it's about Congresswoman Omar anymore. 502

[Lance Turbo]

Originally Posted by Sage Rat

Her compatriots talked to her about the matter and, as an outcome of that, opted to perform an act of public shaming.

This is not remotely an accurate description of what happened.

Omar said something that a bunch of people pretended to be outraged by. Republican braying jackasses were calling for her to step down. Democrats morphed this call to action into a resolution condemning anti-semitism and anti-Islamic bigotry. All Democrats, including Omar, had no trouble supporting this resolution. Republicans were painted into a corner here. Most of them voted for the resolution so as not to blow the cover on their faux outrage against anti-semitism. Some couldn't even do that like King (IA) and Gosar (AZ) among others.

This wasn't a public shaming of Omar. She voted for it. Happily. 503

[Kimstu]

Originally Posted by SlackerInc

But Omar is not only a public figure but a public servant, and when her mainstream hometown newspaper asks these questions, she should answer them. If she doesn’t, she creates the impression that she is hiding things and stonewalling. That’s just the way it is.

SlackerInc, you have been telling us all along how much you dislike Omar and how you are hoping for, and to the best of your ability working toward, her political failure. And you expect anybody to believe you when you pretend to be offering honest advice about what Omar should do to boost her credibility?

Nah. I have no personal knowledge about the details of Omar's marital history, and I am willing to believe that she committed some kind of fraud or impropriety if and when, and only if and when, solid evidence to that effect is credibly produced.

But believing that her credibility is in any way impaired just because you say so? It couldn't be clearer that all you're up to is disingenuous stirring of the shitkettle to attempt to discredit her in any way you can. 504

[Gyrate]

Originally Posted by Cheesesteak

It's a plague upon our society, where actual information is ignored, and fantasies are believed. We as a society either stand up against this plague, and demand facts from these story tellers, or we feed the sickness by giving them the attention they don't deserve.

QFT. 505

[Monty]

Originally Posted by Kimstu

SlackerInc, you have been telling us all along how much you dislike Omar and how you are hoping for, and to the best of your ability working toward, her political failure.

I probably will regret asking this, but here goes anyway. Is his dislike of Omar based at all on anything factual about the woman, or just on the innuendo? 506

[galen ubal]

Originally Posted by Monty

I probably will regret asking this, but here goes anyway. Is his dislike of Omar based at all on anything factual about the woman, or just on the innuendo?

slackerinc is a racist, and a misogynist. Ilhan Omar is a brown woman. That's all he needs. 507

[Annoyed]

Holy shit this thread. Tried to post it weeks ago, apparently had to wait for moderation approval? Gave it a few days and saw nothing in the forum so gave up and didn’t really follow up. Discovered it just now.

There are some MASSIVE hypocrites in this forum. 508

[Sage Rat]

Originally Posted by Lance Turbo

This wasn't a public shaming of Omar. She voted for it. Happily.

He also voted for it. Happily. 509

[Monty]

Originally Posted by Annoyed

Holy shit this thread. Tried to post it weeks ago, apparently had to wait for moderation approval? Gave it a few days and saw nothing in the forum so gave up and didn’t really follow up. Discovered it just now.

Huh?

Originally Posted by Annoyed

There are some MASSIVE hypocrites in this forum.

Huh? 510

[simster]

Originally Posted by Monty

Huh?




Huh?

Ignore them - they're just annoyed. 511

[Lance Turbo]

Originally Posted by Sage Rat

He also voted for it. Happily.

I don't think you actually believe that. 512

[Annoyed]

Originally Posted by Monty

Huh?




Huh?

Thought I was pretty clear. Went to post this thread a few weeks ago, hit “post thread” button, a box came up saying the thread needed some kind of approval and/or review by moderation. Checked back a few times over a few days and never saw the thread and gave up. Haven’t checked back until today, where I discovered it’s eleven pages.

As for the second “huh” it’s rather simple. Some posters on here are galactic hypocrites. While the evidence presented in the OP was/is circumstantial, it certainly is enough to warrant an investigation/inquiry. Some posters in here vehemently deny any possibility that the accusation may be true favoring the argument of racism, while those same posters apparently have no issue believing anything negative about the politicians they dislike, no matter how circumstantial or blatantly false. 513

[Sage Rat]

Originally Posted by Lance Turbo

I don't think you actually believe that.

Of course not. But I would suggest that there are a number of people on the right who would point to the supportive vote as proof that King isn't racist. After all, anything else other than "from the horse's mouth" would just be unfounded speculation without merit.

https://thedailynerv.com/accused-ant...f-41eea9b248a3

I leave it to others to find the connection. 514

[Guest-starring: Id!]

Originally Posted by Annoyed

As for the second “huh” it’s rather simple. Some posters on here are galactic hypocrites. While the evidence presented in the OP was/is circumstantial, it certainly is enough to warrant an investigation/inquiry. Some posters in here vehemently deny any possibility that the accusation may be true favoring the argument of racism, while those same posters apparently have no issue believing anything negative about the politicians they dislike, no matter how circumstantial or blatantly false.

Cite. 515

[Monty]

Originally Posted by Annoyed

Thought I was pretty clear. Went to post this thread a few weeks ago, hit “post thread” button, a box came up saying the thread needed some kind of approval and/or review by moderation. Checked back a few times over a few days and never saw the thread and gave up. Haven’t checked back until today, where I discovered it’s eleven pages.

As for the second “huh” it’s rather simple. Some posters on here are galactic hypocrites. While the evidence presented in the OP was/is circumstantial, it certainly is enough to warrant an investigation/inquiry. Some posters in here vehemently deny any possibility that the accusation may be true favoring the argument of racism, while those same posters apparently have no issue believing anything negative about the politicians they dislike, no matter how circumstantial or blatantly false.

Your entire post is horseshit. Actually, your entire posting history is horseshit. 516

[Skywatcher]

Originally Posted by Smapti

This thread has crawled so far up its own ass I'm not even sure it's about Congresswoman Omar anymore.

Apparently now it's about Sage Rat trying to be James Burke. 517

[Annoyed]

Originally Posted by Monty

Your entire post is horseshit. Actually, your entire posting history is horseshit.

Touché, angry internet person. 518

[Monty]

I'm not angry. i'm merely reporting a fact. You should try that sometime, liar. 519

[Annoyed]

Originally Posted by JohnT

For the sake of argument, I'm going to assume everything the OP's citations say is true.

Here is my response:

So? I literally could not care less.

Good to know what you’re made of.

Originally Posted by Czarcasm

After registering a year and a half ago this is your first post in any forum, and you use it to post already debunked right-wing glurge that is still being discussed in another thread.

Show me where it’s been completely and verifiably debunked.

Originally Posted by Inigo Montoya

Annoyed is just a Russian shit-stirrer. Let's fuck with him (if he ever comes back).

Found the tough guy/gal.

Originally Posted by Dewey Finn

What is the reason for the obsession with this one member of Congress, not just on the part of the OP but also Fox News and others?

Probably because she’s the type of person who would watch Black Hawk Down and root for the other side. 520

[Annoyed]

Originally Posted by Monty

I'm not angry. i'm merely reporting a fact. You should try that sometime, liar.

Oh, you’re angry. Your ass is redder than a boiled lobster, hurling insults & calling me a liar.

But why are you SO upset? 521

[Monty]

You may wish to familiarize yourself with the word projection. 522

[AK84]

Ok, so dare I ask? Whats the result of 11 pages and 500 plus posts?
Is a member of the US Congress a brother fucker and illegal immigrant? Or not. 523

[Budget Player Cadet]

Originally Posted by AK84

Ok, so dare I ask? Whats the result of 11 pages and 500 plus posts?
Is a member of the US Congress a brother fucker and illegal immigrant? Or not.

Not according to any significant (or even insignificant) body of evidence.

So expect Hannity to run it any day now. 524

[Annoyed]

Originally Posted by Monty

You may wish to familiarize yourself with the word projection.

....Says the angry person saying angry things. 525

[Gyrate]

Originally Posted by Annoyed

While the evidence presented in the OP was/is circumstantial, it certainly is enough to warrant an investigation/inquiry.

The "evidence" presented in the OP wasn't evidence; it was rumor, innuendo and insinuation and, as such, didn't even warrant the time spent reading it, let alone an inquiry.

Some posters in here vehemently deny any possibility that the accusation may be true favoring the argument of racism

And considerably more posters vehemently deny the accusation is true because there's no actual evidence for it beyond rumor, innuendo and insinuation, much like there was no actual evidence for Obama being born in Kenya. And have presented detailed and coherent arguments to that effect. Yet I note you have ignored all that and merely continue to demand we take obvious bullshit seriously because you apparently have no issue believing anything negative about the politicians you dislike, no matter how circumstantial or blatantly false.

Meanwhile...

while those same posters apparently have no issue believing anything negative about the politicians they dislike, no matter how circumstantial or blatantly false.

Got any actual evidence for that? Or is this just more rumor, innuendo and insinuation? 526

[Annoyed]

Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet

Not according to any significant (or even insignificant) body of evidence.

So expect Hannity to run it any day now.

And we should expect Maddow to run a segment carrying Omar’s water for her after, which I’m sure you’ll tune in for.

And since when “significant body of evidence” the standard? The lefts whole game is slander, innuendo, and bullshit. 527

[Budget Player Cadet]

Watch closely folks, I'm going to do something very useful that more people should do. 528

[Annoyed]

Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet

Watch closely folks, I'm going to do something very useful that more people should do.

Oh noes, he’s gonna do something. 529

[Annoyed]

Originally Posted by Gyrate

The "evidence" presented in the OP wasn't evidence; it was rumor, innuendo and insinuation and, as such, didn't even warrant the time spent reading it, let alone an inquiry.

And considerably more posters vehemently deny the accusation is true because there's no actual evidence for it beyond rumor, innuendo and insinuation, much like there was no actual evidence for Obama being born in Kenya. And have presented detailed and coherent arguments to that effect. Yet I note you have ignored all that and merely continue to demand we take obvious bullshit seriously because you apparently have no issue believing anything negative about the politicians you dislike, no matter how circumstantial or blatantly false.

Meanwhile...
Got any actual evidence for that? Or is this just more rumor, innuendo and insinuation?

I guess what I find laughable about this whole post is the “factual evidence” requirement, considering how little that standard is applied in other directions, and to other people.

And “considerably more posters” on here believing anything is nothing more than anecdotal. 530

[Gyrate]

Originally Posted by Annoyed

I guess what I find laughable about this whole post is the “factual evidence” requirement,

Yes, we're all aware that you find the requirement to provide any evidence for your arguments laughable.

considering how little that standard is applied in other directions, and to other people.

Poor you. How you suffer.

And “considerably more posters” on here believing anything is nothing more than anecdotal.

Which means it meets your standard for an investigation. You should get right on that. 531

[iiandyiiii]

Originally Posted by Annoyed

Thought I was pretty clear. Went to post this thread a few weeks ago, hit “post thread” button, a box came up saying the thread needed some kind of approval and/or review by moderation. Checked back a few times over a few days and never saw the thread and gave up. Haven’t checked back until today, where I discovered it’s eleven pages.

As for the second “huh” it’s rather simple. Some posters on here are galactic hypocrites. While the evidence presented in the OP was/is circumstantial, it certainly is enough to warrant an investigation/inquiry. Some posters in here vehemently deny any possibility that the accusation may be true favoring the argument of racism, while those same posters apparently have no issue believing anything negative about the politicians they dislike, no matter how circumstantial or blatantly false.

Wow, what a lazy post. Care to actually cite the hypocrisy, or would you rather just make effort-free potshots aimed at no one and everyone? 532

[Annoyed]

Originally Posted by Gyrate

Poor you. How you suffer.

I’m good, no need to concern yourself with my wellbeing.

The more salient point here is your hypocrisy.

Let’s discuss that. 533

[Annoyed]

Originally Posted by iiandyiiii

Wow, what a lazy post. Care to actually cite the hypocrisy, or would you rather just make effort-free potshots aimed at no one and everyone?

This is the pit right? I’ll go for the potshots, motherfucker. 534

[Cheesesteak]

Originally Posted by Annoyed

I guess what I find laughable about this whole post is the “factual evidence” requirement, considering how little that standard is applied in other directions, and to other people.

What other people is that, exactly? I've provided my evidence as to why I'm not feeding this particular moronic conspiracy theory, how about you tell us exactly why I am a hypocrite. 535

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Originally Posted by Monty

You may wish to familiarize yourself with the word projection.

Originally Posted by Annoyed

The lefts whole game is slander, innuendo, and bullshit.

Heh. 536

[Acsenray]

It would be nice if people stopped quoting the troll. 537

[Gyrate]

His evidence for "hypocrisy" is just as substantial as his evidence for Omar's incestuous marriage. At this point he's pulling so much out of his ass I'm half-expecting a string of "flags of all nations" next. 538

[Vinyl Turnip]

Originally Posted by Acsenray

It would be nice if people stopped quoting the troll.

I nominate this post to replace the "fighting ignorance" tagline on the site banner. 539

[SlackerInc]

Originally Posted by AK84

Ok, so dare I ask? Whats the result of 11 pages and 500 plus posts?
Is a member of the US Congress a brother fucker and illegal immigrant? Or not.

If anyone is alleging or even speculating that either of those things are true, I missed it. I have not read the right wing sites, but what is being investigated by the Star Tribune is whether she married someone, possibly her brother, to help him immigrate. I did not read into that anything but a potential sham marriage that would obviously not have been consummated. Nor did I catch any implication that she herself was suspected of being anything other than a citizen, fully legally naturalized as a teenager.

Which is why I said I personally don’t think it’s any great ethical lapse, as I was going to enter into a sham marriage myself if my friend was willing to conspire with me. But I’m happy to use this awkward scenario to damage a politician I oppose for other reasons. (Kimstu acts like she has cannily ferreted out this motivation, when in fact I have been quite open about it.)

Originally Posted by crowmanyclouds

Why 'thankfully'?

See my anti-Omar posts linked upthread. She is one of these left wingers who savages the mainstream of the Democratic Party, including characterizing President Obama as some kind of war criminal with a “smiling face”, and I have no tolerance for that. I would prefer to get her out of Congress altogether, but at least she currently does not represent me (moderate DFLer Collin Peterson is my congressman). So I certainly don’t want her representing me in a Minnesota statewide office, like her predecessor Keith Ellison does as attorney general.

Originally Posted by iiandyiiii

Do you advocate "ignoring the probability" for the supposition that Omar married a space alien disguised as her brother, and she's reticent to answer questions about it because she wants to hide the upcoming invasion of the human race from alien lizard shapeshifters?

This is why I say you want to have it both ways. You said it was perfectly reasonable for the Strib to investigate these questions, but you presumably wouldn’t think it would be reasonable for them to investigate alien lizard shapeshifter nonsense?

Originally Posted by Cheesesteak

Again... the man gave us:
1) his birth certificate - valid in every courtroom in the entire world as proof of birth
2) public statement from the head of his State's vital records bureau that the certificate was accurate
3) public statement from the Governor of his State, a person not of his party and actively campaigning for his opponent, that the certificate was accurate
4) a certified copy of the internal documentation, a level of certification never heretofore required for anyone for any purpose.

And still over 50% of the population wasn't sure where the dude was born.

All because.... some dude made up a ridiculous story of Obama's mother flying to Kenya to give birth. A story with literally zero facts supporting it.

As I said before, it's twisted. It's a plague upon our society, where actual information is ignored, and fantasies are believed. We as a society either stand up against this plague, and demand facts from these story tellers, or we feed the sickness by giving them the attention they don't deserve.

But again, millions of people changed their minds and decided he was definitely born in the US after he released the long form birth certificate. Do you think he should have stubbornly refused to do that because it shouldn’t have been necessary? That’s not how politics works.

And I’m sure Omar knows that, which is why I feel confident that she is not refusing to talk about this stuff for the reason that it’s beneath her contempt but because she can’t actually do the equivalent of what Obama did. She doesn’t have evidence to bring to bear so she pretends it’s not worth even responding to. If I were her political advisor, I would advise the same thing if that’s the case. But if she does actually have the evidence and is just being stubborn for no reason, I would definitely advise her to release it, let her family members talk to reporters, explain where she and her husband were living when they filed their paperwork, etc.

Originally Posted by Monty

I probably will regret asking this, but here goes anyway. Is his dislike of Omar based at all on anything factual about the woman, or just on the innuendo?

Your error is in assuming those are the only possibilities. I posted those screeds against Omar before I ever heard anything about this marriage stuff. And as I have already said, this marriage stuff does not really bother me in and of itself. If it were a politician I liked and I thought they could survive by stonewalling, I would help them do so, just like many of you are doing.

Originally Posted by galen ubal

slackerinc is a racist, and a misogynist. Ilhan Omar is a brown woman. That's all he needs.

Bullshit. Did you miss all the posts in which I have supported Kamala Harris as the best choice of all those polling above 5%?

Frankly, it’s sad that you don’t allow Omar to have any individuality. Any dislike of her must be because she is a brown woman, therefore you have reduced her to a generic gender and racial avatar. No consideration that she could be treated as an individual. 540

[iiandyiiii]

Originally Posted by SlackerInc

She is one of these left wingers who savages the mainstream of the Democratic Party, including characterizing President Obama as some kind of war criminal with a “smiling face”, and I have no tolerance for that.

This is a false characterization of Omar, apparently by someone who sees Obama like a toddler sees Mommy. Adult and nuanced criticism of politicans we like is okay, and that's all Omar did. I suspect you saw it so negatively out of a combination of poor comprehension skills for political criticism, and knee-jerk bigotry against a black Muslim woman.

This is why I say you want to have it both ways. You said it was perfectly reasonable for the Strib to investigate these questions, but you presumably wouldn’t think it would be reasonable for them to investigate alien lizard shapeshifter nonsense?

If the latter was being repeated in borderline mainstream infotainment sites, and spread and believed widely on social media, then absolutely it would be reasonable for them to investigate (which would take approximately 5 minutes).

Bullshit. Did you miss all the posts in which I have supported Kamala Harris as the best choice of all those polling above 5%?

All this shows is that you're a weird racist. You've admitted your racism (against black people) and bigotry against Muslims. That you are fond of some individual black people doesn't excuse this or change this at all. Lots of racists like certain individual black people. I suspect many slave owners were fond of certain slaves.

Frankly, it’s sad that you don’t allow Omar to have any individuality. Any dislike of her must be because she is a brown woman, therefore you have reduced her to a generic gender and racial avatar. No consideration that she could be treated as an individual.

Not any dislike, just the inaccurate descriptions and mischaracterizations of what she's said, when presented by an open racist against black people and bigot against Muslims. If David Duke mischaracterizes something Obama said, it's pretty damn reasonable to presume that this has something to do with his racism. Even if, later on, he praises a different black person for some reason. 541

[SlackerInc]

Name three political positions David Duke and I share. As in, actual legislation, appointment of judges, or executive action. 542

[iiandyiiii]

Originally Posted by SlackerInc

Name three political positions David Duke and I share. As in, actual legislation, appointment of judges, or executive action.

Don't worry, you're a much better person than Duke. Your views are much less evil than Duke. Hell, you're even better than 1950s George Wallace! Take comfort in that. Hell, make it your sig line -- "iiandyiiii says I'm not as bad as David Duke". 543

[SlackerInc]

“Not as bad”, yes: in the sense of “staunchly opposing virtually everything he supports”. 544

[Chingon]

It's pretty easy to pretend to support someone. 545

[Annoyed]

Originally Posted by Gyrate

His evidence for "hypocrisy" is just as substantial as his evidence for Omar's incestuous marriage. At this point he's pulling so much out of his ass I'm half-expecting a string of "flags of all nations" next.

Nobody says it’s an incestuous marriage. The issue is a sham marriage for fraudulent immigration purposes. 546

[Kimstu]

Originally Posted by Monty

I probably will regret asking this, but here goes anyway. Is his dislike of Omar based at all on anything factual about the woman, or just on the innuendo?

Lance Turbo in post #417 posted links to two threads SlackerInc started about Omar. A lot of his dislike seems to be based on pretty elementary misunderstandings (see below).

Originally Posted by SlackerInc

But I’m happy to use this awkward scenario to damage a politician I oppose for other reasons. (Kimstu acts like she has cannily ferreted out this motivation, when in fact I have been quite open about it.)

I said right there in my most recent post that you were being open about it:

Originally Posted by Kimstu

SlackerInc, you have been telling us all along how much you dislike Omar and how you are hoping for, and to the best of your ability working toward, her political failure. And you expect anybody to believe you when you pretend to be offering honest advice about what Omar should do to boost her credibility?

Originally Posted by SlackerInc

She is one of these left wingers who savages the mainstream of the Democratic Party, including characterizing President Obama as some kind of war criminal with a “smiling face”

This misunderstanding was explained and rebutted early on in your fulminating "Ilhan Omar can fuck right off" thread. As I pointed out there:

Originally Posted by Kimstu

Here's the full quote [...]:

I don't pretend to be an authority on semantic analysis, but it seems pretty clear to me that the "pretty face" Omar is talking about there is that of her party's image in general, and that of the Republican Party as well. The "polished" people who have been lending a statesmanlike cachet to bad policy choices are not only Obama but the Bushes, Clinton and Reagan.

It is not outrageous or insulting to hold the opinion that the framework of US governance is in some ways fundamentally broken, and that having a charismatic centrist Democrat in the White House doesn't automatically fix the problem.

SlackerInc, it's more and more evident that your insistence on erroneously regarding (and misquoting) Omar's phrase "the pretty face and the smile" as a direct personal insult to Obama individually is just a lazy excuse to justify your dislike of her for other reasons.

What Omar actually said was a reasonable criticism of aggressive militarist policies pursued by the US government for decades under both Republicans and Democrats, most of whom were more rhetorically "polished" about them than Trump, but not necessarily less aggressive. Your attempting to frame her remarks as vilification of Obama personally is not persuading anybody but yourself. 547

[Monty]

Originally Posted by Annoyed

Nobody says it’s an incestuous marriage. The issue is a sham marriage for fraudulent immigration purposes.

You're pretending that she married her brother. How is that not an incestuous marriage? I mean other than the fact that the whole assertion is based on nothing other than prejudice with zero facts to support it. 548

[Gyrate]

Originally Posted by Annoyed

Nobody says it’s an incestuous marriage.

Some people certainly seem uncertain about it. See post #523.

The issue is a sham marriage for fraudulent immigration purposes.

Well, good news - there's zero actual evidence that anything like this happened, and substantive reason why it wouldn't have (already discussed over and over in this thread). So I guess we can close the thread now. 549

[simster]

Originally Posted by Annoyed

Nobody says it’s an incestuous marriage. The issue is a sham marriage for fraudulent immigration purposes.

I didn't know this thread was about Trump..... 550